Hey all,

Shot some stuff this morning and found a good example of "troubled footage," shots that make it look like the camera is malfunctioning but were really just bad setting choices on my part.

As this is YouTube there are unexpected breakups in the supposed "good" footage, but they aren't there.    I think the real issues will be pretty obvious.   Watch it in the highest resolution you can for best results.

http://youtu.be/G5a06_BpMAs

One thing I forgot to point out is that ANY camera that gives the user full control and thereby the best quality out of each shot, also gives you the power to make terrible shots.    Get the settings wrong and it will look worse than a $10 camera.     This is why sometimes it seems like you would be better off with another camera but the truth is they just have more automatic shooting features which protect you from mistakes and make everything look pretty okay, but the chance of anything looking great is pretty slim.


The same is true with $30,000 cameras.   I have one of the best cameras on the market and if I get the settings wrong my end result is crap and I would have been better off with a point-and-shoot from Target.

The camera can only do what you tell it to do so make sure you tell it how to get a good shot and it will.

Thanks Jim, and you are spot on (no pun intended) It is the Photographer and not the camera. The camera helps with creativity but it can be daunting because the high end cameras give you more control but if you don't understand it, it can be more of an enemy. The glass can make a big difference also. I have and use the high end Nikons, presently the D3x. My favorites are my Hasselblads. The Hasselblad Digitals are way beyond my reach.
Thanks again and we look forward to more of your work and we appreciate your time and effort.

Thanks for the advice.

Very helpful post, the artifacts you saw were things I saw in a lot of my shots and wondered if I had bad exposure or there was a problem with my camera.

I utilize the manual mode, and reference my histogram as a guide.  However, here in Southern California on bright days, I frequently have trouble getting exposure right, even with ND filter.  I set my shutter speed to roughly double frame rate, but the image is often over exposed.  Does WB playa  role in this and can using a WB card to set custom WB help?  Any other tricks to deal with managing exposure, or any settings I am missing?

kevin@thinkpsa. Posted at 2015-3-21 04:59
Very helpful post, the artifacts you saw were things I saw in a lot of my shots and wondered if I ha ...

Hi Kevin, I don't think you're missing anything, these things are coming to light over time and can be addressed one by one.

The need for more ND options has been discussed all over the forum and several people are pursuing solutions.

In my opinion color balance doesn't play a big role in this unless you have the balance set so far out of whack that you need to make major adjustments to bring it inline.

My guess there are some shots and environments  that are beyond the Inspire, just as would be true with many cameras.

But the main point of the post is that the more control a camera gives to the user, the bigger the difference great footage and terrible footage.   Point-And-Shoot cameras may protect you from the terrible but they almost never offer the gold.

Time, place and appropriate owner for both, but give me full control with the risk of failure any day!

kevin@thinkpsa. Posted at 2015-3-21 04:59
Very helpful post, the artifacts you saw were things I saw in a lot of my shots and wondered if I ha ...

Hi Kevin, I don't think you're missing anything, these things are coming to light over time and can be addressed one by one.

The need for more ND options has been discussed all over the forum and several people are pursuing solutions.
At the moment it's not uncommon to be in an environment where the perfect settings just aren't possible.
In my opinion color balance doesn't have a big role in this unless you have the balance set so wrong that you need to make major adjustments to bring it inline.

My guess there are some shots and environments  that are beyond the Inspire, just as would be true with many cameras.

But the main point of the post is that the more control a camera gives to the user, you will see both better and worse shots than you will on an auto-setting point and shoot camera.

Time, place and appropriate owner for both, but give me full control and I'll take on the risk of failure any day!

rodger Posted at 2015-3-20 21:19
Thanks Jim, and you are spot on (no pun intended) It is the Photographer and not the camera. The cam ...

Exactly right Rodger!    Love Nikon stuff, I have a lot of it.   I have some really nice Zeiss glass that are pure magic.

Yeah, the Hasselblad digital stuff is off the charts and unobtainable!

Thanks for your kind comments, I'm really enjoying the new opportunities and challenges of flying and shooting at the same time.  Fun!

Great advice... So I'm the idiot and NOT the camera.. I was wondering if I got a lemon...LOL  

CrabHawk Posted at 2015-3-21 08:05
Great advice... So I'm the idiot and NOT the camera.. I was wondering if I got a lemon...LOL  :victo ...

LOL, we're all idiots, the main thing is to always look at your results and think about what you could do differently next time.   That's always the best approach.

Or put the camera in auto and it should behave much like a GoPro.   

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 08:34
LOL, we're all idiots, the main thing is to always look at your results and think about what you c ...

I concur!   

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 07:00
Exactly right Rodger!    Love Nikon stuff, I have a lot of it.   I have some really nice Zeiss glas ...

We are on the same page but I must admit that you are well versed in the field of video and we appreciate your sharing of knowledge and experience. Can't you just love the feel of a Hasselblad in your hands and a nice Light Meter to set you straight? The good old days!!

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 08:34
LOL, we're all idiots, the main thing is to always look at your results and think about what you c ...

That is so true! We can adjust by critiquing our own work. If you don't realize that your work could be better, you are sliding down a very slippery slope! I really look forward to more of you input! You are so honest and inspiring!
Thanks from all of us!!!!

I am pretty good at all the post production side of things, (I hve a really good post pro work flow). but find lack of understanding of the camera setting troublesome with this new drone... What is the relationship between ISO and shutter speed for getting exposure correct? I am camera man and I got it wrong today... So a little bewildered.

I was planning on doing the same clips with slightly different settings, logging them then comparing to work out which gives me the most post production room to move...

Your advice would be appreciated. I think this goes back to work flow and setting evaluation....? Have you got more suggestions re different light and ISO shutter combo's?
Thanks
Helen

Skippyo Posted at 2015-3-21 16:27
I am pretty good at all the post production side of things, (I hve a really good post pro work flow) ...

Hi Helen,
Technically speaking, ISO is the sensitivity to light, loosely can be described as a gain control (it originally referred to film stock), and the shutter speed is literally how many times the shutter opens and closes each second, which can reduce or increase the amount of actual light allowed through.   
So the faster the shutter, the less light gets through and the darker the image.  The opposite is true with slower shutter speeds.   

With ISO the lower numbers make darker images and larger numbers make brighter images.

Traditionally in photography you would also have a third way to control the exposure, which is opening and closing the lens' aperture (iris) to let more or less light which also allows you to control depth of field.   

So in a perfect world you would use a combination of these three things to create your exposure.

Since the Inspire's lens has a fixed aperture of f/2.8 that you can't change, we have to make do with only using shutter and ISO.

Soooooo...

The settings you choose depend on the look you want to achieve.

If you are going for a cinematic look, set the shutter speed to double your frame rate (24FPS = 48 shutter, 30FPS = 60 shutter) and so on.   
Do this first then adjust the ISO up or down until you have the correct exposure (use the over exposure warning and histogram to determine this.)

Sounds simple but there's a problem, in the sun you will have your shutter set correctly and the ISO at its lowest setting of 100, but the image is still too bright.  This is when you put the ND filter on (which is the darker of the two lens filters provided.)

This will work the same way sunglasses do for your eyes, it reduces the amount light getting to the sensor, which allows you to use a lower shutter speed.

But there's another problem, even with the ND on the image may still be too bright.  If this is the case your only choice is to increase the shutter speed until it's under control.   If you only need to put it up to 150 or 200 you will probably be fine, but if you have to put it up to 500 to control the light you may get weird effects, including the dreaded rolling shutter jello.

Hopefully some stronger NDs will hit the market.  Some users have experimented with cutting their own ND from lighting gels.

Anyway, that's a crash course in exposure.  These are by no means definitive rules but as a guideline should be good.  

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 07:00
Exactly right Rodger!    Love Nikon stuff, I have a lot of it.   I have some really nice Zeiss glas ...

Jim, This is a lot of fun flying and doing video and stills. The extra couple of hundred feet in the air gives on a whole new perspective. The Zeiss glass was really superior. I think Hasselblad is using Sony glass now? The digital world is is here to stay, there is so much you can do with it. Looking forward to more of your work and Tutorials. The forum gang enjoys and welcomes your input.

Skippyo Posted at 2015-3-21 16:27
I am pretty good at all the post production side of things, (I hve a really good post pro work flow) ...

Helen, welcome to the Forum. Jim has given you a starting point. Check out his Tutorials on the board. Some really great info there. I too have always done Photography and have a Camera  down pretty well. This Video is all new to me. I have done well with DJI's Technology but still have a lot to learn. Like your Photography experience, experiment, experiment.

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 17:54
Hi Helen,
Technically speaking, ISO is the sensitivity to light, loosely can be described as a gain ...

Wait, you got two filters? I only got the ND filter. What's the other one?

sam1am Posted at 2015-3-22 06:22
Wait, you got two filters? I only got the ND filter. What's the other one?

The other is the clear UV filter that was probably already mounted on the lens.    Sorry, didn't mean to imply that I received two different ND filters, just wanted to differentiate between the UV and ND.

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 17:54
Hi Helen,
Technically speaking, ISO is the sensitivity to light, loosely can be described as a gain ...

Hi jim

Thank you so much for that.... -) so it was the sun yesterday that caused the prob... And you know what the Aussie sun can be like!!!!!...

So I have already gone through your videos... Thankyou for taking the time to do that. I thus take ISO to be   Low ISO  = darker image thus more suited to bright flying conditions... And revers for higher ISO.

I think doing my. Experiments will help and get some ball park setting for different cloud/sun and time of day combos. Might also be useful to do the same flight and change just one setting to see the impact...

Can I ask another question?  Implications of Fps and post production ability to harmonise?
if PAL = 24 Fps, why is there a 25fps option with the PAL and 30 is an option too... How do you get them to come together post? ( diff cameras have diff options..not to mention FIeld of view too?) ...arrghh

PAL is 25FPS.  I have found that changing from NTSC to PAL and vice versa on the Inspire doesn't always bring up the correct settings, it's a bit buggy so you need to be sure.

On the Inspire the PAL settings give you frame rates for 25, 50, 24 (made popular by film) and 48FPS.   NTSC gives you 30, 60, 24 and 48.

So it's more about choosing between the native frame rate for your country or overriding it with 24/48 for cinematic reasons.

So to your question about post you have a few options.

if you're shooting for TV the easier thing is to shoot in NTSC/PAL depending on your country.   You can also shoot in a faster frame rate so you can slow it down later.  For example, sometimes I shoot at 30FPS and slow it to 25 or 24 to make the motion smoother and more elegant.  

If you have to mix footage from different sources with different frame rates this isn't too hard.  If possible it's better to just slow/speed the footage rather than standards convert, but that's a whole other topic and major can of worms.

Not sure if this answers your question though, let me know if I missed the mark.

Jim

Jim,
Just a quick thanks, I have learnt a lot from your videos, you are an excellent communicator, thanks again.

Redeye Posted at 2015-3-23 05:29
Jim,
Just a quick thanks, I have learnt a lot from your videos, you are an excellent communicator, t ...

My pleasure Redeye, we're all here to help each other with the bits we don't know.  

Jim:

I notice in my footage, even using advanced mode, that the exposure continues to auto-adjust.

Using the Advanced Mode settings for the camera:

When I flip the switch to "Manual" so that the switch is green, I can manually set ISO and Shutter. However, EV still automatically adjusts based on the scene.

When I flip the switch the other way, I can manually set EV and Shutter, but not ISO, which AGAIN automatically adjusts based on the scene.

How in the world do I get all 3 values to stay "locked in" so that there isn't an automatic adjustment as I'm filming?

bryanesposito@g Posted at 2015-3-26 00:21
Jim:

I notice in my footage, even using advanced mode, that the exposure continues to auto-adjust.  ...

That's odd, in manual mode there should be no EV at all and the settings are very much locked.  I can go from total darkness to full sun in the same shot and it doesn't compensate at all, which is what you want.

Is it possible that you are accidentally turning auto mode OFF by using the button to close the window?

A lot of people seem to be doing this.  Pushing the advanced mode button repeatedly toggles between auto and manual Modes and you open/close the advanced mode settings and you open/close the advanced mode settings box by swiping right/left on the left side of the screen.   

I talk about this in my first tutorial, maybe have a look and see how it equates to your approach.
http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... id=9738&lang=en

Hi Jim,

Thanks as always for all your tutorials and amazing input.
Could you let me know the workflow order for editing footage?
IE: Capture 4K video, upload to Davinci Resolve (lux and color editing) and then import into FCPX to create video with transitions, music etc? FCPX would simply be to create the final product, not to preform any additional color corrections?
Could you also let me know input and output settings for uploading and exporting final products.  IE, FCPX optimizes (renders) footage on import.  Would I still optimize the video from Davinci?
I hope this makes sense.

Peter

Thanks Jim
After your very informative input on this forum I am finally getting some great footage from the Inspire.

Sky High Aerial Posted at 2015-3-27 23:36
Hi Jim,

Thanks as always for all your tutorials and amazing input.

Hi Peter,

There are many workflows and the best one for each person depends on their hardware, task and goal.

For example, if you have good CPU/GPU power then you can edit the native 4k files and grade directly from them at the end.   This is good because you are only working with the material in your final edit, not 100% of the source material.
In this case you could use FCPx to edit directly.  Just import the footage and edit them into your project.   Thet settings will be made automatically when you place the first clip so you don't need to set anything up in advance.   You can either color correct the footage directly in FCPx, or save an XML and bring it into DaVinci.  If the corrections are simple than I would just stay in FCPx the entire time to keep things easy.

Again, this is if your computer can easily work with the footage.

But if your computer doesn't like the large and highly compressed files, that's a good time to grade and transcode 100% of your footage upfront, putting them into a CODEC that your computer can keep up with.  In this case bring your clips directly into DaVinci and color correct all of them up front.  Then save in ProRes for editing, maybe drop the resolution to 1080P as well.  

I  use both methods depending on what I'm doing and which computer I'm using at the time.   
Can't really help with specific input/output settings, but typically I export as 1080P h.264 for YouTube around 20,000kb/S or so.

Hi Jim,

I have just taken by second flight on P3P and in both flights the video was recorded in slow motion, any suggestion on what settings I need to use to have a regular video quality. Thanks in advance.

jimhare Posted at 2015-3-21 17:54
Hi Helen,
Technically speaking, ISO is the sensitivity to light, loosely can be described as a gain ...

I agree with most everything you say Jim, on all subjects here.
But the shutter speed is different from FPS?
FPS is how many times the shutter opens and closes in a second?
Shutter speed is how long it's open during each cycle?
Not to nit pick, just want to clarify.
I found using your and Scooterlam's advice about ISO and shutter speeds and combining that with Rennat's filters my videos are looking way more professional pre post work, making post work much easier on me.
I work in the film industry as a key rigging grip on major motion pictures, shooting the 3rd installment of Divergent series in Atl at the moment, and our DP and VFX supervisor are amazed at the footage I bring into work every monday morning from the previous weekend.
We're using an octo flying a carbon fiber Red Dragon for the production and they're comparing my footage to it's now. Actually having our DIT tech blow mine up at the moment to see how it holds up in large format viewing, will update as soon as I hear.
Last year we flew a RedEpic and 20 shots made the final film, theatre version!!
When I say we, I don't mean me, we're using Yonder Blue Productions, based here in Georgia.
Ben Rowland is the mastermind behind that end, I just help wherever possible as my job on the film entails plenty of work to keep me busy 14hrs a day till Sept.

Again, thanks for all of your help always.
Love to read your posts and replies.
Craig

my videos that I can post, as some are of our sets and I can't, are on Vimeo or Youtube, my handle is Primo_NYC

cravac Posted at 2015-5-25 01:53
I agree with most everything you say Jim, on all subjects here.
But the shutter speed is different ...

Hi cravac.

That's right, shutter speed and FPS are completely independant.
Strap yourselves in because now we go a level deeper into theory.

FPS (frames per second) represents how many times a full frame of material is being captured.   This will determine the smoothness or amount of stuttering in a moving image.  For example 24FPS is what film uses and 25/30FPS are for TV depending on what country.  We've all grown up watching these but you will notice with fast movement and pans you can see a stuttering effect because they aren't capturing enough frames for truly smooth motion.    In the last few years many people have started using faster framerates to make their images smoother.  These are typically double the frame rates mentioned above and have in many ways been driven by video game culture, where 60FPS and sometimes 100FPS is the gold standard.  Very clear and smooth motion but not cinematic by traditional terms.

So that's frame rate.
Shutter speed on the other hand is how many times per second the shutter allows light to come through the lens.   

How does that work and what's the difference you ask?    Glad you asked!

Imagine the shutter speed was the same as the frame rate (FPS.)   By definition you would be letting 100% of available light come through and this is the brightest your footage will ever be.   (Yes, I know you can have shutter speeds slower than frame rate but if you have a look this is more for dreamy, slurred special effects than something you would ever use.)

But let's say you have the shutter speed set to double the frame rate.   Two things happen.   First you are letting half of the light in.  Frames per second going at the same rate so you still have fluid motion, but the shutter is blinking on and off twice as many times.   
But it isn't only light, it is also determining the sharpness of the moving image.   This is because if it's only open for half the time the frame is being exposed, you are only seeing the movement for half the distance.   This is what we perceive as "motion blur."     Motion blur is when there is movement in a single frame you see both the start and end of the movement blurred together in the same frame.   

This is totally normal and believe me you would freak out if it wasn't there most of the time.   

So how does this affect the aesthetic perception of our shots and why do we say a shutter that is double the frame is more "cinematic?"

Simple, it's because feature films almost always use this ratio (known as 180 degree shutter) so we have learned that it looks classy.   It gives the right amount of motion blur and makes the image tighter in general.

Plus, handicams generally use a shutter speed equal to the frame rate (360 degree shutter) and we have learned that it looks cheap and nasty.   Way too much motion blur and the image looks loose and cheap, like a 1983 soap opera.

So hope this didn't make your heads explode.   In the end you can choose whether or not to learn all this theory.  There's nothing wrong with just emulating the settings we spout out and enjoying the results.  

I personally find it fascinating and love it!

Jim

jimhare Posted at 2015-5-25 06:14
Hi cravac.

That's right, shutter speed and FPS are completely independant.

Thanks,
But the way i've learned is that shutter speed isn't how many times it opens in a second, but how long it's open each time it opens in a second.
Frame rate is how many times it opens in a second, 24 frames per second
Shutter speed is a fraction, 1/50, means shutter is open for one fiftieth of a second each time
Still don't mean to nit pick, but just want to clarify

cravac Posted at 2015-5-25 08:37
Thanks,
But the way i've learned is that shutter speed isn't how many times it opens in a second, ...

That's correct.   I write these responses very quickly so some details get glossed over.

The main thing is to know the concepts and differences between the two.

awesome dialogue here.
So much to learn and the challenge is....get it right while flying...
lol

Awesome info thanks man!

Airosa Posted at 2015-5-26 09:56
awesome dialogue here.
So much to learn and the challenge is....get it right while flying...
lol

You're right about that!   You have to search out the beauty while flying.

I often rehearse and perfect the same maneuver up to ten times before I get it right.   Excellence rarely happens by accident and when it does it's usually just an unexpected gift.