Hi all,

As many of us have been discussing in the forums lately, we believe there should be a test process to qualify drone pilots and give them license to fly.  Well it appears that the UK is leading the charge with this...

https://petapixel.com/2017/07/24/uk-require-drone-registration-awareness-courses/

This is already in effect in Danmark... Commercial use of drones requires registration, full licensing and allows for flights "inside built-up" areas, and Hobby flying  (only "outside of built-up areas") requires registration of the owner and passing a Rules Awareness Test to obtain a  "Hobby licence" for drones over 250 grams. Members of approved model flying clubs don't need the Hobby licence. Lastly, Hobby flyers need to have an insurance for .75 millions Euro.

Also, this article -cited in the previous one- says that the UK is looking forward to enforce geofencing... https://www.gov.uk/government/ne ... ew-government-rules

Interesting take on it here: https://www.heliguy.com/blog/201 ... on-plans-announced/

When does the License take effect ?

Bradders Posted at 2017-7-25 07:00
When does the License take effect ?

My guess, about 2 years.  

Our "new" government has been making a lot of announcements of what will be done in the next 4 years before the next election starts.  The basics for this has already been worked out but there is still a lot of work to do before it can be made law, it wasn't in the queens speech so is unlikely to be this year.

"There is also likely to be a test at the end of the course to give the pilot, and the government, the confidence of knowing that the drone in question will be operated safely and correctly."
I can't see that happening for normal consumer drones, you would need a training course to get started and that would kill the market as well as being unnecessary for sub 2Kg drones.

The latest list of drone/UFO near misses makes interesting reading. Half way down the page: http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/R ... -Meeting-June-2017/

The UK does NOT require testing and certification of all drone.....

The proposals have no timeframe or details as yet, its all just speculation as are the many other click bait threads on this subject...

I haven't seen anything official that suggests plans any different to the working assumption from the impact assessment documents:

• apply to all drone owners (leisure and commercial) for drones above 250g in weight
• require registration for drone users rather than each individual drone
• be administered online, through a simple self-service portal
• be funded by a registration fee of no more than £5, ideally less
• require renewal free of charge every 1 year
• require users mark their drones with their registration number
  

There are many groups involved in discussions for new proposals on rules for the whole of Europe expected in 2018, I have sat at some of these meetings, they are also attended by dji representatives, from what I've seen an heard so far these new rules are progressive and are not looking at stifling drone flyers in anyway, on the contrary they are looking at trying to open up more space than a lot of EU countries have at present, the interests of commercial and hobbyists are very much to the fore in these discussions, and not what people might think, aviation doesn't have a problem with drone flying, but because of aviations record on safety they are not going to put this at risk in anyway, and rightly so.

I think soon all new drones will come with note explaining the registration for your country and you will be required to sit an online safety test and registration, I don't envisage this being difficult or expensive but it may well be tied into your drone, so before you can activate you must first register, this may not happen so soon but I can see it happening in the future.

I also think we will see a separation of professional drones from hobbyists. I.e. You could buy and use an inspire2 as a professional commercial license, or you could buy an inspire2 for hobbyists no license or lesser type of license, so the hobbyists inspire2 may be a dampened down version than professional inspire2, but with software that can be unlocked if hobbyists sits his commercial exam.

There are also well advanced plans to introduce new airspace for drone flying , this space will be known as U Space, so there will be a future for drones and aviation are not against drone flying but will encourage drone flying in the future.

it won't stop many from getting hysterical, but that's just part of any new changes, but most of that will be just hysteria

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-25 09:53
There are many groups involved in discussions for new proposals on rules for the whole of Europe expected in 2018, I have sat at some of these meetings, they are also attended by dji representatives, from what I've seen an heard so far these new rules are progressive and are not looking at stifling drone flyers in anyway, on the contrary they are looking at trying to open up more space than a lot of EU countries have at present, the interests of commercial and hobbyists are very much to the fore in these discussions, and not what people might think, aviation doesn't have a problem with drone flying, but because of aviations record on safety they are not going to put this at risk in anyway, and rightly so.

I think soon all new drones will come with note explaining the registration for your country and you will be required to sit an online safety test and registration, I don't envisage this being difficult or expensive but it may well be tied into your drone, so before you can activate you must first register, this may not happen so soon but I can see it happening in the future.

Will our Phantoms be allowed in the new U Space, or is that to be reserved for commercial drones traveling from place to place beyond visual line of sight and with short range inter-drone communication for collision avoidance?

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-7-25 11:07
Will our Phantoms be allowed in the new U Space, or is that to be reserved for commercial drones traveling from place to place beyond visual line of sight and with short range inter-drone communication for collision avoidance?

I think it may well be in different areas ie cities be used for commercial reasons hospital fire rescue police etc, it will also be used for SOP's, I'm sure the local Chinese and Amazon will be looking to share this space.
I think inter drone communication will be very much a part of it, I did hear talk about photography film making and mapping surveys, I have a feeling hobbyists may be excluded although they have discussed allowing free access at different times in different locations, I think it has a long way to go, interesting times.

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-25 11:32
I think it may well be in different areas ie cities be used for commercial reasons hospital fire rescue police etc, it will also be used for SOP's, I'm sure the local Chinese and Amazon will be looking to share this space.
I think inter drone communication will be very much a part of it, I did hear talk about photography film making and mapping surveys, I have a feeling hobbyists may be excluded although they have discussed allowing free access at different times in different locations, I think it has a long way to go, interesting times.

"interesting times."
Indeed, it won't be too long before most of our air cargo will travel on drones, no need for human pilots, cockpits or pressurised cabins.  Some of them will be massive, many new regulations and systems will be needed.  Consumer drones are just a small part of it.

UPDATE:  I took off the [Misleading?] tag that a moderator added to this thread title and instead softened the title to include the word "possibly".  When I read the linked article, it appeared to me that the UK drone registration was a lock and in effect.  But maybe it isn't quite as simple as that?

So we all have a test to make sure we are aware of the rules and ability to handle the aircraft. Then we will all be good aviators and obey the laws just like when we drive our cars. Of course all us pilots never break the speed limit, never have run a red light always stop at a stop sign et etc etc.

Mabou2 Posted at 2017-7-27 03:36
UPDATE:  I took off the [Misleading?] tag that a moderator added to this thread title and instead softened the title to include the word "possibly".  When I read the linked article, it appeared to me that the UK drone registration was a lock and in effect.  But maybe it isn't quite as simple as that?

So far, there is definitely nothing changed, and I suspect nothing will for 2 years, but it is being worked on and something will happen in future, probably generally in line with European regulations although we do normally go for minimal regulations / maximum freedom unlike some other European countries.

Currently we still fly by the UK Drone Code : http://dronesafe.uk/drone-code/

Or alternatively by our FPV regulations which are more complicated to understand but allow more freedom, eg 1000ft is possible in some circumstances instead of the normal 400ft altitude limit, but make sure you understand those rules fully before use, our manned aircraft also have more freedom than most countries give so there is potential for conflict.

Lets just hope that the politicians listen to those who fly drones professionally ( you know - as in earn a living from this, and have sat exams - and know their equipment, like a good pilot should), instead of listening to hype and hysteria from the media and those with a little knowledge.

I was more interested in this story, where the industry went after the research that led to the conclusions that led to the suggestions that this training and registration scheme was required in the first place:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40738948

This is based on this research of a "drone" in flight where they compressed a drone into the most damaging configuration they could find, used the battery to tip a drone shaped bullet and fired it at a plane at 200 mph.



The original article is here:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/ ... ne-plane-collision/

The proposed registration and training measures are a nonsense. the industry states there have been ZERO confirmed drone strikes, they won't do anything whatsoever to locate  or identify someone flying drugs into prisons or flying on flight paths, nor would such a person register their drone with the government in any event.

The entire endeavour is based on sketchy research, hysteria and nonsense like this, where an alleged drone strike took place, received worldwide press coverage and it was later believed that the "drone" was in fact a plastic bag

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... ight-may-have-been/

Nigel_ Posted at 2017-7-25 08:43
My guess, about 2 years.  

Our "new" government has been making a lot of announcements of what will be done in the next 4 years before the next election starts.  The basics for this has already been worked out but there is still a lot of work to do before it can be made law, it wasn't in the queens speech so is unlikely to be this year.

I also have a "small" problem to be tackled first over there, leaving the EU. Perhaps the "big" problem, drones, is to hide the other problem may not go as intended ???   

Regards Leif.

The plane with people almost hit drone know WOW

Landbo Posted at 2017-7-28 03:20
I also have a "small" problem to be tackled first over there, leaving the EU. Perhaps the "big" problem, drones, is to hide the other problem may not go as intended ???   

Regards Leif.

That other problem is only a minor issue and is certain to go as intended, even if we do nothing more we will now leave since we have already sent the notification that we are leaving, other things will carry on as normal.

The EU thing will probably end in a farce, it seems to be going that way, however, that is not likely to impede Tory ministers pushing forward with ill informed regulation.

I'm honestly not sure whether the proposals can be put into law by an Air Navigation Order, if they can it's not likely to require any significant parliamentary time.

As the USA registration process has been over turned in court and all registration fees have now to be refunded, I expect some legal challenge in the UK too. Some parts of the legislation will be in workable. The BBC article said "new drone pilots" to undergo registration. So the UK laws, if they are indeed law, maybe enforced when buying a new drone. How will the UK Govt trace every drone owner in the country to make them register? Given the amount of drones already in the country, this seems not practicable. DJI drones have registered users and record data on the user via updates, non DJI drones do not have this and so there is no way to know who currently owns those drones, given they are bought and sold second hand. DJI if they hand over data to the UK Govt about owners also open themselves up to legal action via the existing data protection act.

No doubt the UK Govt already know all of the above, but are pushing through the white paper through parliament anyway. This begs the question is this just a political action based on hysteria driven press based negative information. I suspect it is. The only people that will register are those who currently fly by the drone code anyway. The people who regularly fly in an illegal manner will not register their devices, so this legislation will not really protect helicopter pilots, which given the recent Qinetic Govt testing is why the Govt is justifying this legislation.

For those not registering their aircraft, how will they be policed? Most drone users tend, because of the negative press, go to uninhabitated areas to fly their drones, who will report their illegal use of non registered drones? Also given recent Police cuts to staffing, will Police have to check every drone being flown anywhere for registration, and how will that affect their ability to respond to calls for actual crimes being committed. A lot of questions to which the Govt no doubt would not want to answer, but I shall be writing to the Aviation minister for the UK and asking him to answer these questions.

SPIKE_151 Posted at 2017-7-28 22:53
As the USA registration process has been over turned in court and all registration fees have now to be refunded, I expect some legal challenge in the UK too. Some parts of the legislation will be in workable. The BBC article said "new drone pilots" to undergo registration. So the UK laws, if they are indeed law, maybe enforced when buying a new drone. How will the UK Govt trace every drone owner in the country to make them register? Given the amount of drones already in the country, this seems not practicable. DJI drones have registered users and record data on the user via updates, non DJI drones do not have this and so there is no way to know who currently owns those drones, given they are bought and sold second hand. DJI if they hand over data to the UK Govt about owners also open themselves up to legal action via the existing data protection act.

No doubt the UK Govt already know all of the above, but are pushing through the white paper through parliament anyway. This begs the question is this just a political action based on hysteria driven press based negative information. I suspect it is. The only people that will register are those who currently fly by the drone code anyway. The people who regularly fly in an illegal manner will not register their devices, so this legislation will not really protect helicopter pilots, which given the recent Qinetic Govt testing is why the Govt is justifying this legislation.

I'm not sure how they will manage to police the whole thing, but if first you make it law to register, then you have deterrence fines etc, all new drones will not be activated until you register and do online test, this will mean only older drones would need to register, some may not but over a period most of these drones will wither and die, I'm sure there will be those who would be willing to register their drones, yes maybe those who already play within the rules.

While it will be more of a task to get older drones registered, I do think it will be done, yes there might be challenges but if it's the law, this may prove difficult.

As it is sometimes it can be difficult awkward, to go out and fly your drone, if there were proper registration and license, then I don't think we will feel half as awkward or intrusive as we sometimes do now.
Most people think that regulation means restrictions, I don't think this is the case , certainly aviation seem to be getting behind drones and what will be the future for them.

If you take a scenario that may happen in the future.
You are a fully commercial license RC pilot you can fly up to 120 metres and distance of 500 metres with your P4Pro.
I on the other hand am a novice pilot have done online safety test, I hold a novice license, my P4Pro is restricted to flying height 80 metres distance 300 metres.
There will then be a separation between fully qualified pilot and novice pilot. So if I want my restrictions lifted I am required to sit for my full commercial license.

It may take awhile but I think we may see something like this particularly with the exponential growth in the drone market, both recreational and commercial .

hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-29 03:05
I'm not sure how they will manage to police the whole thing, but if first you make it law to register, then you have deterrence fines etc, all new drones will not be activated until you register and do online test, this will mean only older drones would need to register, some may not but over a period most of these drones will wither and die, I'm sure there will be those who would be willing to register their drones, yes maybe those who already play within the rules.

While it will be more of a task to get older drones registered, I do think it will be done, yes there might be challenges but if it's the law, this may prove difficult.

Via the Police I'd imagine, you could expect to stopped and asked to produce evidence of your registration.
The Civil Aviation Authority have already delegated powers of arrest for illegal drone flights etc to the police, I'd imagine that the legal penalties will be much the same as they are now for breaches of the Air Navigation Order, fines, confiscation of the drone and for the most serious offences prison time.
In terms of flying by the rules, I'd say it is all but impossible to do so, your not allowed to fly within 50 metres of people or property not yours or not in your control, property would include animals like livestock and walls and fences, crops are property, I regularly fly in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, there are sheep literally everywhere, so I'd estimate that pretty much every flight I make is unlawful because at some point I'm too close to sheep, I'm literally in the middle of nowhere parked in a layby minding my own business most of the time and people stop their cars to come over and ask about drones meaning that I'm flying a drone within 50 metres of persons and their property like cars, which are not under my control.

Your not allowed to fly the drone beyond line of sight which is a nonsense given the technology in the P4P,  legally you need a spotter to fly FPV, something I also ignore I'd be hard pushed to remember a flight I have made in accordance with the law.

Kmelx Posted at 2017-7-31 00:44
Via the Police I'd imagine, you could expect to stopped and asked to produce evidence of your registration.
The Civil Aviation Authority have already delegated powers of arrest for illegal drone flights etc to the police, I'd imagine that the legal penalties will be much the same as they are now for breaches of the Air Navigation Order, fines, confiscation of the drone and for the most serious offences prison time.
In terms of flying by the rules, I'd say it is all but impossible to do so, your not allowed to fly within 50 metres of people or property not yours or not in your control, property would include animals like livestock and walls and fences, crops are property, I regularly fly in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, there are sheep literally everywhere, so I'd estimate that pretty much every flight I make is unlawful because at some point I'm too close to sheep, I'm literally in the middle of nowhere parked in a layby minding my own business most of the time and people stop their cars to come over and ask about drones meaning that I'm flying a drone within 50 metres of persons and their property like cars, which are not under my control.

Given the technology in a Ferrari, do you think you should be able to drive it as fast as it goes, or do you think it should be bound by rules for the safety of general public, do you think that the technology in a sound system should be allowed to put maximum output, or do you think people need to be protected from this happening.
Once you fly your AC outside VLOS you are no longer in full control of your AC, will your equipment be able to view everything in the sky, i.e. Parachutist ballooning hand gliders, all the aforementioned need permission to use airspace, maybe they shouldn't bother getting permission because as far as your concerned they don't bother you.

Using the excuse that because AC has the technology to fly further than your VLOS, means you should fly it further than VLOS is just ignorant.

Kmelx Posted at 2017-7-31 00:44
Via the Police I'd imagine, you could expect to stopped and asked to produce evidence of your registration.
The Civil Aviation Authority have already delegated powers of arrest for illegal drone flights etc to the police, I'd imagine that the legal penalties will be much the same as they are now for breaches of the Air Navigation Order, fines, confiscation of the drone and for the most serious offences prison time.
In terms of flying by the rules, I'd say it is all but impossible to do so, your not allowed to fly within 50 metres of people or property not yours or not in your control, property would include animals like livestock and walls and fences, crops are property, I regularly fly in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, there are sheep literally everywhere, so I'd estimate that pretty much every flight I make is unlawful because at some point I'm too close to sheep, I'm literally in the middle of nowhere parked in a layby minding my own business most of the time and people stop their cars to come over and ask about drones meaning that I'm flying a drone within 50 metres of persons and their property like cars, which are not under my control.

I also fly in a National Park, never had a problem with sheep or people, if you do then maybe you are not understanding the rules!   Once you are above 50m altitude the rules let you fly directly over people, buildings and sheep, although there are non-drone related rules about disturbing sheep, if you are actually causing them problems then expect the farmer to shoot your drone out of the sky like they are allowed to do with dogs!

Also, it doesn't take much effort to walk 50m away from the car park to take off legally, although I do have some sympathy for disabled people who can't do so.

Flying out of line of sight is simply dangerous, even at short distance since you can't give way to other aircraft if you can't see them and current remote viewing technology and obstacle avoidance technology is nowhere near adequate to deal with an encounter with a helicopter, paraglider, kite flyer etc.  Also flying out of sight normally means flying out of radio range and then you have no control even if you can see a helicopter approaching the area.   I'm sure that when rules for autonomous flying are introduced, our current Phantoms will not qualify.

Kmelx Posted at 2017-7-31 00:44
Via the Police I'd imagine, you could expect to stopped and asked to produce evidence of your registration.
The Civil Aviation Authority have already delegated powers of arrest for illegal drone flights etc to the police, I'd imagine that the legal penalties will be much the same as they are now for breaches of the Air Navigation Order, fines, confiscation of the drone and for the most serious offences prison time.
In terms of flying by the rules, I'd say it is all but impossible to do so, your not allowed to fly within 50 metres of people or property not yours or not in your control, property would include animals like livestock and walls and fences, crops are property, I regularly fly in the Yorkshire Dales National Park, there are sheep literally everywhere, so I'd estimate that pretty much every flight I make is unlawful because at some point I'm too close to sheep, I'm literally in the middle of nowhere parked in a layby minding my own business most of the time and people stop their cars to come over and ask about drones meaning that I'm flying a drone within 50 metres of persons and their property like cars, which are not under my control.

If you want to fly further you have to get creative in your flight planning. For instance, you can legally fly 1 km by, set your drone into hover, drive 500 metres down range, upload your litchi mission, they you can legally fly 500 metres to yourself and another 500 metres past yourself giving you a total flight range of 1km without going beyond 500m vlos. If you have a vehicle and driver , you could repeat this to fly whatever distance you wanted without ever going out of vlos

SPIKE_151 Posted at 2017-7-31 04:17
If you want to fly further you have to get creative in your flight planning. For instance, you can legally fly 1 km by, set your drone into hover, drive 500 metres down range, upload your litchi mission, they you can legally fly 500 metres to yourself and another 500 metres past yourself giving you a total flight range of 1km without going beyond 500m vlos. If you have a vehicle and driver , you could repeat this to fly whatever distance you wanted without ever going out of vlos

As he is in a national park then walking, running, cycling, horse riding, paragliding etc. are all preferable to driving!

Preferably the tandem versions so that he can actually stay in control of his aircraft!

When exactly with my method would he be out of control of his aircraft? He wouldnt so I really dont see your point , if there is one

SPIKE_151 Posted at 2017-7-31 06:39
When exactly with my method would he be out of control of his aircraft? He wouldnt so I really dont see your point , if there is one

probably related  to the vehicle and driver bit...

SPIKE_151 Posted at 2017-7-31 06:39
When exactly with my method would he be out of control of his aircraft? He wouldnt so I really dont see your point , if there is one

You say that you leave your drone hovering, jump in your car and start driving.  What happens if a rescue helicopter comes around the corner of the mountain while you are driving - you are not sufficiently in control of your aircraft to give way to the manned helicopter, you may not even see the helicopter until too late since your eyes are on the road not the sky  behind you.

Are you serious dude?  a quadcopter hovering 4 feet off the floor is a threat to a rescue helicopter, why not say in case a low flying tornado fighter bomber runs into it. Or the queen in a hot air balloon? Wind your neck in, and stop talking bollocks

I thought I'd necro this one and post a link to below which is a detailed and quite lengthy response to the study stating that regulation is necessary:

http://clearvisionsecurity.co.uk/drone-collision-study/