I believe the motor start-stop is a bit messier and prone to lead to motor stop in mid-air, whith consequences and potential damage limited not only to the drone.therefore i believe that if the controller had a switch dedicated to start/stop instead of having it implemented as a redundant function of control sticks and RTH button, then the situation of inadvertendly starting or stopping the motors could be avoided.
i fly a P4 and I invite anyone who owns a P4 to provide his opinion on this matter.
please allow me repeat the question: would you prefer a switch dedicated to motor start/stop?

UPDATE JAN 27:
what I meant with a dedicated switch I find it better explained in messages 12 and 19

I don't use such a parameter. So no votes...

I can crash just fine on my own... Haha

RedHotPoker

"I believe the motor start-stop is a bit messier and prone to lead to motor stop in mid-air"

For the P4, to stop the motors in mid air you would have to press RTH at the same time as pulling the left stick to the 7 o'clock or 5 o'clock position. P4 Manual v1.2 (bottom of p53 )

It's hard to imagine how you'd get there by accident.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-24 14:31
It's hard to imagine how you'd get there by accident.

I agree, but I can see you getting there by accident if a single button is assigned. Sorry, but I personally find this proposal an exceptionally risky one.

As bad as it sounds, a drone operator  needs to practice emergency procedures ahead of time. While the drone is on the ground.  I think too many flyers don't think about what they're going to de
if something goes wrong.  
I know there's a joke in the RC airplane/heli  circles about the thumbs going crazy when an A/C starts to crash or goes crazy on it's own. Seems people are prone
to swinging those controls everywhere.
I think drone flyers are prone to the same panic moves on the controller too.
I agree that there are plenty of ways to shut these drones down if you practice.
Emergency preparedness is a huge part of commercial piolets annual training.  How many of us train for this ? {:4_177:}

There is no real world use case where CSC or an engine stop of a drone in flight would produce a desired outcome. I reject the premise and would prefer no options.  CSC is really an artifact of cold starts from fairly analog control devices.

Tyrohne Posted at 2017-1-24 17:35
There is no real world use case where CSC or an engine stop of a drone in flight would produce a desired outcome. I reject the premise and would prefer no options.  CSC is really an artifact of cold starts from fairly analog control devices.

CSC in flight is a fantasy invented by non-critical forum people.
CSC is a necessary emergency stop mechanism for any time rotating blades are a hazard.

Tyrohne Posted at 2017-1-24 17:35
There is no real world use case where CSC or an engine stop of a drone in flight would produce a desired outcome. I reject the premise and would prefer no options.  CSC is really an artifact of cold starts from fairly analog control devices.

Many  many times such a kill "switch" may be needed or used.
Think about it a little more.

When I used it , it had the DESIRED outcome absolutely
it saved my motors to fly another day...

good luck and have fun flying>

Kirk2579 Posted at 2017-1-25 09:23
Many  many times such a kill "switch" may be needed or used.
Think about it a little more.

I'm curious about your use cases.  I still maintain that 'in flight' it's not needed. And I've used it personally (still do when I fly my futaba/flamewheel, P2)  but never once on my p3p or p3s.

Not to take off or land.

Punchbuggy Posted at 2017-1-24 14:59
I agree, but I can see you getting there by accident if a single button is assigned. Sorry, but I personally find this proposal an exceptionally risky one.

No, that would not be a button, rather a sliding switch or something, it also has to be very tight so you need considerable force to move it.

Odan Posted at 2017-1-24 17:18
As bad as it sounds, a drone operator  needs to practice emergency procedures ahead of time. While the drone is on the ground.  I think too many flyers don't think about what they're going to de
if something goes wrong.  
I know there's a joke in the RC airplane/heli  circles about the thumbs going crazy when an A/C starts to crash or goes crazy on it's own. Seems people are prone

"How many of us train for this ?"

I've practiced using CSC several times, it is quite good fun to stop the motors at 400ft and then see if you can restart them in time for it to stabilise and not hit the ground

Of course, like pilot training for a Boeing 747, I only do that when flying the simulator ;)

Tyrohne Posted at 2017-1-25 10:50
I'm curious about your use cases.  I still maintain that 'in flight' it's not needed. And I've used it personally (still do when I fly my futaba/flamewheel, P2)  but never once on my p3p or p3s.

Not to take off or land.

sure

one quick example
was flying my p2 low and fast and missed my mark on getting up above the tree line

clipped a branch tip and it tumbled to ground with motor screaming loudly .
CSC fixed that real quick.
Was great to hear the squeal stop!

yea it was my bad crashing but that is why the p2--
to learn to fly without the gimbal fear.

similar vision plus type thing involving RTH and trees long ago.

Darn I see a trend.....

good luck and have fun flying

I've crashed and flipped a couple times on my P3A and CSC just wouldn't respond.   In the first instance, the crash wasn't severe but knocked one of the gimbal cables loose.
2nd time it was a catastrophic failure crashing from 10 feet off the ground smashing the gimbal and possibly breaking one of the wires to compass.
Once I learned that I can shut down under normal landing conditions by holding the throttle stick down for a few seconds, I' haven't used CSC since, particularly when it was pointed out that getting to the CSC position could be misinterpreted and cause the AC to topple over.   I use the takeoff button to start up.   The only exception was when someone wanted to see it run while it was indoors where hovering was not an option.   Then I did start up via CSC.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-24 14:31
"I believe the motor start-stop is a bit messier and prone to lead to motor stop in mid-air"

For the P4, to stop the motors in mid air you would have to press RTH at the same time as pulling the left stick to the 7 o'clock or 5 o'clock position. P4 Manual v1.2 (bottom of p53 )

if you pressed rth while bringing the drone down say from max height, do you think the motors will stop?

WindSoul Posted at 2017-1-26 20:17
if you pressed rth while bringing the drone down say from max height, do you think the motors will stop?

Why would you press TTH at the same time as bringing the Phantom down vertically?
Look again at what DJI says in the manual and if you still wonder, try it out in the simulator.
DJI went to a lot of trouble to find a combination that you are most unlikely to ever hit by accident.
Imagine what the Phantom would be doing if you had the left stick full down and in.
Do you think you'd be likely to do that while issuing an RTH command?

If the answer is yes, you aren't going to have your Phantom for very long anyway.

So the two sticks to the???........ On  The right stick to the bottom left and the left stick to the bottom right isn't  the CSC any more??? It's the left stick to the bottom right and the RTH button triggers the  mid air motor stop?????? It really doesn't matter at this point does it? So when did that change happen without any prompt or update/upgrade.? The manual is becoming less and less relaveint...... Or do i have to download the manual how many times to keep up to date with the operations. we are almost at comedy level here.

Would it look like this?  If so, then yes

Normn8or Posted at 2017-1-27 01:40
So the two sticks to the???........ On  The right stick to the bottom left and the left stick to the bottom right isn't  the CSC any more??? It's the left stick to the bottom right and the RTH button triggers the  mid air motor stop?????? It really doesn't matter at this point does it? So when did that change happen without any prompt or update/upgrade.? The manual is becoming less and less relaveint...... Or do i have to download the manual how many times to keep up to date with the operations. we are almost at comedy level here.

Normn8or:

Each time the DJI Go software updates, the first splash screen displays the left-stick south-east position with RTH button combo as the CSC. Whenever you install the DJI Go (4 included) software on a new device, the splash screen includes a reminder of the new combo. That's been my experience.

I'm not sure which version(s) started it, but back in October, at least, was the first time I noticed it. There have been multiple forum posts alluding to this change; the language has been quite clear, the reasoning for it, logical. That some souls (not yourself) seem to have misunderstood, misinterpreted, ignored, or simply overlooked it is somewhat perplexing.

Keep Smiling,

Augustus

Thermographer Posted at 2017-1-27 05:31
Would it look like this?  If so, then yes

[view_image]

of course, something like that: a two-step command on a dedicated control.
what we have now is a one-step simultaneous command on two controls dedicated to completely different actions (left stick +RTH). while i agree it can be learned with practice, I believe is illogical, unnecessary and confusing  to implement a master command on control redundancy instead of using a dedicated control.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-27 00:09
Why would you press TTH at the same time as bringing the Phantom down vertically?
Look again at what DJI says in the manual and if you still wonder, try it out in the simulator.
DJI went to a lot of trouble to find a combination that you are most unlikely to ever hit by accident.

in the event of an emergency you are most likely to watch towards the drone. at that moment triggering motor shutoff is prone to fail if the shutoff is implemented redundantly on other controls. also in the thick of rush, you may want to RTH and realize the height is too much. can anyone guarantee that drone wont fail due to inadvertent simultaneous command?
the motor shutoff is a master command and requires a dedicated triggering switch.
i see you avoid a straight yes or no answer to my question. please stick to replying instead of waxing poetic on personal remarks about what they did or who's wondering what. let's keep it mature.

WindSoul Posted at 2017-1-27 08:08
in the event of an emergency you are most likely to watch towards the drone. at that moment triggering motor shutoff is prone to fail if the shutoff is implemented redundantly on other controls. also in the thick of rush, you may want to RTH and realize the height is too much. can anyone guarantee that drone wont fail due to inadvertent simultaneous command?
the motor shutoff is a master command and requires a dedicated triggering switch.
i see you avoid a straight yes or no answer to my question. please stick to replying instead of waxing poetic on personal remarks about what they did or who's wondering what. let's keep it mature.

I answered your question in a mature fashion and backed it up with details.
Read my reply again.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-24 14:31
"I believe the motor start-stop is a bit messier and prone to lead to motor stop in mid-air"

For the P4, to stop the motors in mid air you would have to press RTH at the same time as pulling the left stick to the 7 o'clock or 5 o'clock position. P4 Manual v1.2 (bottom of p53 )

I agree with this post 100%. Current shut off system works fine. No need for change or improvement. Vote submitted.

Normn8or Posted at 2017-1-27 01:40
So the two sticks to the???........ On  The right stick to the bottom left and the left stick to the bottom right isn't  the CSC any more??? It's the left stick to the bottom right and the RTH button triggers the  mid air motor stop?????? It really doesn't matter at this point does it? So when did that change happen without any prompt or update/upgrade.? The manual is becoming less and less relaveint...... Or do i have to download the manual how many times to keep up to date with the operations. we are almost at comedy level here.

The real confusion is in the use of the term 'CSC' (Combined Stick Command') , even the moderators still use this phrase to describe a motor shut down on a Phantom 4. It has become synonymous with motor shut down.  On the Phantom 3 a CSC (both sticks combined, both either to down right/left, or down left/right) will start and stop motors while on the ground. In the air they will stop the motors (latest firmware introduced a three second delay). On a Phantom 4 this 'CSC' will start and stop the motors on the ground. While in flight only the 'Motor Stop' command (left stick down & right AND RTH button) will shut down the motors on a Phantom 4.

I think that the current motor cut off in flight for a Phantom 4 is sufficient. It's not a command I am likely to give accidentally, so I am happy with that. It's a command that is easy enough to remember, should I ever need it then I know what it is.

Aardvark Posted at 2017-1-27 16:24
I think that the current motor cut off in flight for a Phantom 4 is sufficient. It's not a command I am likely to give accidentally, so I am happy with that. It's a command that is easy enough to remember, should I ever need it then I know what it is.

I agree and have voted no. There are enough switches on the P4 controller already without adding another that will never (or extremely rarely) be used.

Quamera Posted at 2017-1-31 15:03
I agree and have voted no. There are enough switches on the P4 controller already without adding another that will never (or extremely rarely) be used.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MASTER CONTROL SWITCH, A VITAL CONTROL. I DONT THINK YOU REALIZE THAT.

the way i see it is not a matter of how many people say no. is about how many people actually experienced the need of such a thing. is about how many people got to understand the question before jumping to cast their vote. how to understand it? well, some are just experienced and others are just rational. i have to tell you that not many posters impressed with their argument, or convinced of their experience.

but what came up as a big surprise is that none of the nay people who felt necessary to argument their vote actually related to an occurrence where they needed to shutdown and succeeded. that means so far many have no idea why they voted.

they just got in line to some padre figure know-it-all which has to be as right as it is just. the lack of responsibility is the treat of democracy. (Aristotle said that among all forms of government- oligarchy, tyranny and democracy, democracy is the lousiest because people take no responsibility for their actions).

if someone looks careful through the posts, could see that people dont event try to act responsibly, they just go with the flow.

I think that a switch could be worst because you could accidently do that and I think that they should have a confirmation to CSC.

KevDrones Posted at 2017-1-31 18:13
I think that a switch could be worst because you could accidently do that and I think that they should have a confirmation to CSC.

i assume you already checked the messages 12 and 19. they mention the switch could not be a regular throw switch, which could be triggered by accident. is about a 2-step switch, but a dedicated one rather than implemented on regular flight controls.

imagine a real plane where the pilot could accidentally shutdown the engines if he pressed on auto pilot while the plane was turning. they must have a reason not to implement that on a real plane. in fact i've seen a mayday episode with a Russian-driven airbus where the autopilot crashed the plane due to inconsistent pilot controls.

we're only trying to avoid the sad effects of inconsistent pilot commands.

I did read the messages, maybe a dial would be better, and each pilot should go to mandatory training, so they are ready for the crash.

WindSoul Posted at 2017-1-31 18:27
i assume you already checked the messages 12 and 19. they mention the switch could not be a regular throw switch, which could be triggered by accident. is about a 2-step switch, but a dedicated one rather than implemented on regular flight controls.

imagine a real plane where the pilot could accidentally shutdown the engines if he pressed on auto pilot while the plane was turning. they must have a reason not to implement that on a real plane. in fact i've seen a mayday episode with a Russian-driven airbus where the autopilot crashed the plane due to inconsistent pilot controls.

"we're only trying to avoid the sad effects of inconsistent pilot commands."

And how many "sad effects" are you aware of?
Seems you're getting worked up about an imaginary problem.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-31 18:55
"we're only trying to avoid the sad effects of inconsistent pilot commands."

And how many "sad effects" are you aware of?

i see you took a sentence out of context. then you managed to focus on two words-taken out of sentence, of course. then based on two words, you confectioned a full sentence for a conclusion. amazing!

WindSoul Posted at 2017-1-31 20:11
i see you took a sentence out of context. then you managed to focus on two words-taken out of sentence, of course. then based on two words, you confectioned a full sentence for a conclusion. amazing!

I see you didn't understand my reply at all and put down some random words that mean nothing.
I'll put it another way for you.

You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Labroides Posted at 2017-1-31 20:20
I see you didn't understand my reply at all and put down some random words that mean nothing.
I'll put it another way for you.

this is not about anyone including me or you. if you dont like the thread subject, is fine, you don't have to be present. just stop being personal get a bit of captainship in your contributions, if there is any.

i think this is a poll on a subject. please do the courtesy to allow people vote uninfluenced by your remarks on other person.

I see posts 34 & 36 have been edited to remove certain comments made regarding Post number 35.

Poll update, so far 17 people would be in favour of an additional physical 'kill switch' for the motors on a P4, 44 people do not wish to see the current arrangement of left stick & RTH button changed.


Edit:- So currently 72% in favour of no change.

Aardvark Posted at 2017-2-1 05:13
I see posts 34 & 36 have been edited to remove certain comments made regarding Post number 35.

Poll update, so far 17 people would be in favour of an additional physical 'kill switch' for the motors on a P4, 44 people do not wish to see the current arrangement of left stick & RTH button changed.

The message 29 has all the reasoning your message doesn't. Advertising the vote is not the same with debating. If all the good use of analytic skills results in corrupting a voting process, then it cant get lower than that. be carefult at identifying yourself with the results of a poll.
PS: PUT A SMILE ON YOUR FACE OFFICER.

Today is a great day for flying, above the clouds, beyond the sounds of uncivilization, with only the wind for company. As a child, i used to ride my bike into this same breezy escape zone, free from familial chores, able to feel my velocity, revel in my acceleration, breathe into my banks, wail in my wheelies. I wish my Phantom 4 could do flips, like the big boys' racer drones do. Maybe I'll put streamers on her landing struts.

You know, in ATTI or sports mode you can put the P4 into a fast, pedal-to-the-metal sprint, then let go of the controls, and watch it coast slowly into a dreamy drift, just rIding the breeze.. Kinda like taking your feet off the bike pedals on a downhill run. Glorious.

Let go of those joysticks. Look, ma: No hands!

Keep Smiling,

Augustus

Well then.... my friends here who don't think a dedicated button is a good idea... should reconsider.   A dedicated button is by-far the best idea.  Shutting down the motors by selecting a combination of controls that serve a different purpose, is a terrible user interface.  You can practice and commit the stick/button combo to memory all you want, but it still won't be second nature if you are in the middle of an emergency and are experiencing a bit of panic, because it isn't part of your normal routine.  No muscle memory.

How about we make your computer abruptly shut down by clicking two oft-used alphabet keys at the same time?...  Wouldn't that be silly?  Definitely takes more effort to reach over to the power key, click it, then click the Shutdown dialog.

How about we make your car motor shut down when you have your foot on the gas and you flip the switch to lower your window?  Wouldn't make sense at all right?  Why do you think they put a dedicated button (in modern cars) to start and stop the motor?   Because... It... Makes... the... most... sense....
How about boats?  Yup, dedicated motor stop/start button.  hmmm....   Let me power off my Television... Should I hold the channel button and the audio button to shut off my TV?  Nope, I'll just hit the power button instead.

My video camera?  Dedicated power switch...

Hmmmm again, seems like most to all gadgets/appliances/vehicles in our lives have a dedicated switch to turn it on and off... Makes one think eh?

NO...................................

Mabou2 Posted at 2017-2-16 23:13
Well then.... my friends here who don't think a dedicated button is a good idea... should reconsider.   A dedicated button is by-far the best idea.  

I don't understand the point of the poll. The controller is what it is. Are people expecting that DJI is going to retrofit an emergency off button to all existing equipment? I have no problem with the current combination and, it seems, the majority of those who voted are also happy with the status quo.

Mabou2 Posted at 2017-2-16 23:13
Well then.... my friends here who don't think a dedicated button is a good idea... should reconsider.   A dedicated button is by-far the best idea.  Shutting down the motors by selecting a combination of controls that serve a different purpose, is a terrible user interface.  You can practice and commit the stick/button combo to memory all you want, but it still won't be second nature if you are in the middle of an emergency and are experiencing a bit of panic, because it isn't part of your normal routine.  No muscle memory.

How about we make your computer abruptly shut down by clicking two oft-used alphabet keys at the same time?...  Wouldn't that be silly?  Definitely takes more effort to reach over to the power key, click it, then click the Shutdown dialog.

Mabou2:

I really, really hate resuscitating this (insert you own adjective) thread, but:

Your "How About We's" analogies form one huge cornucopia of false equivalency.

Neither computers, nor cars, nor TV's, nor boats, nor video cameras, require emergency shut down operations. Cars do come closest, but the emergencies they engender most often require the brake pedal, not a motor shut down (in fact most modern cars need the engine power for effective power braking, and power steering).

Most household appliance emergencies are handled with the power plug. And/or sometimes flour.

This includes computers. But computers do also offer numerous fail-safe prompts, usually put into place to protect users from themselves. These various "Are You Sure?s" would/could represent a combination stick control, just one stretched out in time (press Delete, read Are You Sure?, press Enter). And Ctl-Alt-Delete reboots the computer, usually from a frozen state. Yet this blatantly obvious combination stick control is not time sensitive---you are able to consider the action indefinitely (issa pretty blue screen, ain't it?) before finally taking it.

Boats -- in an emergency, the steering wheel generally trumps throttle release, unless you have thrust reversing (and even then, it would seem to already form a combo control technique).

But the heart of the matter here is emergency shutdown, not simply turning something off (or on) using a dedicated power switch (which, by the way, both the quad and the remote already have).

So, some real equivalence? :

Missile abort buttons and procedures. Heck, missile launch procedures (and dual key-switches).
Jet pilot emergency seat eject switches. Fire alarms controls (break glass, then push button or pull lever). Power plant emergency cooling procedures. Apollo 13 maneuvering jet controls. Grenade pins? (Pull pin, wait, then throw? Is that a combination stick command? Let's see: Pull pin but don't throw. No, wait: Don't pull pin, just throw it. Yeah, you pretty much gotta do both...)

So, again, I'm not addressing whether or not the P?'s should have a dedicated kill switch (combo is just fine). And I'm not criticizing you personally, just that your comparative analogies fail to qualify as cogent examples. Dedicated power switches and emergency shut down procedures are two different animals. Although the former can be used for the latter in certain cases, that isn't its reason for living.

Can you help me out?

Keep  Smiling,

Augustus