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Polls vs No Polls
1624 36 2017-2-18
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Odan
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I get so upset when I see anothe POLL here on the forum.
Polls are not something you just decide to ask a question about. There is a right way and a wrong way to poll.
It takes great effort to develop the correct questions.  Is it a single blind poll, is it a double blind poll or is this type of poll accurate or not.
You need to develop questions that are not bised.  In the true sence of polling there are so many paramitors that have to be considered.
This is why the news media got the election of Pres Trump so wrong.
The only  people that contribute to are the ones who are willing to take the time to answer the questions. As we've seen in the last election, the people who voted for Trump
DID NOT partisapete in polls.  They were not counted and turned out to be a majority.  So all the polls in the world could not have predected the Trump
victory.
I think calling it a survey of forum members would be more correct.  Using the term POLL is not accurate. and an accurate poll is impossable to achive
within the peramitors of this definition on this forum.
Show me the whole spread of data. Out layers. P values. Bell curves etc.
Just do a simple google search on polls and statistics and you will see wht I mean. I am ant a statustition but my wife is a
chemical toxicologist.  She deals with these issues every day. Even she can agree that the poll funtion on the forum is horribly flawed.
Lets get smart here at the forum. END THE POLL OPTION ON THE FORUM.  CALL IT A FORUM SURVEY.
For sure include the fact that this survey is only availible to registered forum members and doesn't include the thousand of users who
do not belong to said forum.
Don't walk around in a lab coat if you don't know which end of a microscope you look into.  
Hows-a-bout it MODs...NO POLLs....only member surveys....


2017-2-18
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Matt-and-Riley
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Lets have a poll on it.

If your bell is curving I'd talk to a doctor and not here on a family forum
2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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I think the name "poll" is appropriate, all forums call them polls and they are always about as accurate as political election polls.   Surveys are normally expected to give useful and meaningful results, something forum polls very rarely do.  Forum polls are useful though, mainly because they result in some useful and interesting posts being made on their threads.
2017-2-18
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Labroides
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Off topic but
" As we've seen in the last election, the people who voted for Trump DID NOT partisapete in polls.  They were not counted and turned out to be a majority.  "

Majority ??
Almost 3 million more voted for the alternative candidate ... surely they were the majority.
2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 14:32
Not in the Sates the matter due to the electoral college.    Trump basically took a bunch of unexpected swing states that were very close races.  The polls were wrong by a few percentage points in those states.  Don't forget we really have 50 elections going on and States population plays a big part in the EC vote.

At least on this forum, the polls are democratic and every vote has the same value!  Hard to understand why in the USA some peoples votes are worth more than those of others.
2017-2-18
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RedHotPoker
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Good God I love being Canadian. ;-)

Very thankful..


No poll on that front.


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2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-2-18 15:43
Good God I love being Canadian. ;-)

Very thankful..


Had to look it up, Canada is a "Federal Democracy".

So the USA being a "Federal Republic" is a cross between Canada and the "Republic of China"?

Can't wait for Brexit, then I will be able to understand what the UK has once again, the EU with it's many presidents is impossible to understand!
2017-2-18
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Steve-76
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lets have a poll on if ppl aprove of ppl using a dji/tech forum for venting their opinion. this did not help my Phantom one bit. but some polls have
2017-2-18
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Labroides
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 15:06
It's not easy to conceptualize and understand but it's a good system once you do understand the EC IMHO.  Basically the large population centers cannot dictate politics.  The US is not a democracy it's a federal republic.

It's a good system?
Where the outcome of an election is not determined by the majority of voters but by the electoral college?
You might have a hard time explaining that to the rest of the world or the majority of voters in your last election.
2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 16:21
You really think the US is a cross between Canada and China, LMAO at that.


Err, I mentioned "Republic of China" because it was the first "Republic" that came to mind.  (You might know it as "Taiwan".)

Now China, or the "Peoples Republic of China" is much more like USA, seems like a Federal Republic to me, of course there are some big differences, such as a lack of guns, but it does have many regions, some of which are autonomous with similar independence to your states.  Maybe the voting system is more democratic?  Seems closer to the UK system than the USA system.
2017-2-18
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Labroides
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 17:17
Why would we care about what the rest of the world thinks about our election process?   The EC works, maybe you don't understand it.   FYI I did not vote for Trump but I like some of what he's doing, especially America first.

"Why would we care about what the rest of the world thinks about our election process?  "
When you don't care what the majority of US voters think, then it's quite understandable that you wouldn't care what outsiders think.
2017-2-18
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KevDrones
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Why do you even care, if you dont care about polls or hate them dont use them, plus saying poll is better than saying member surveys.
2017-2-18
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Labroides
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 17:44
As I've said, I think the EC is a good thing and I don't think you really understand it.    We won't agree here I guess, which is fine.

What's to understand?
You have an election to determine the will of the people and disregard it and give the choice to the EC.
I've read heaps about it but nothing explains how it's a good system.
Why have an election at all when the will of the people isn't respected?
2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 17:45
I don't understand what you are saying.   If you had 2 choices of where to live would you prefer China or the United States?  I know my answer.

I know people who have moved from UK to both USA and China, the ones that went to China seem to have the better experience.  I would have an issue with the language in China, and maybe the pollution, but I wouldn't need to worry about guns etc. and isn't the USA still the biggest polluter on earth?  As for the political systems, the Chinese one although far from perfect seems preferable at present and also seems to have better support from its population.
2017-2-18
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 17:58
"You have an election to determine the will of the people and disregard it and give the choice to the EC"

No, that's what you don't understand, it's got nothing to do with the will of the people of the whole country.  You're thinking like Oz, with 5 states that are not really somewhat separate entities the way the 50 US States are.  Each State, not the country as a whole is voting for the president and the States with the higher populations have more EC votes.   Not a single State in the country had their EC vote changed against the will of the people, they all voted based on the majority vote in their States.  The "popular" vote is meaningless the way the founders set this up.

" it's got nothing to do with the will of the people of the whole country. "

That's obvious and very easy to understand - why you have a system that allows that or how you can say it works is the puzzle.


2017-2-18
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 18:07
Why do you even care?

Because the stability of the US is very important for global security and economy.

Anyway ... that's enough from me on this.
It's very off topic and we probably won't solve much discussing it here.
2017-2-18
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Nigel_
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 18:10
I moved from the UK to the USA, never been to China but from what I read human rights there are suspect.  I don't have a problem with guns, I own lots of them    Unsure of the pollution stats but I don't see any US cities having to ban cars for a few days so they can see the sky during the Olympics. We don't go around wearing surgical masks when the pollution levels are high either.

Have you read about the USA?
https://www.hrw.org/world-report ... pters/united-states
2017-2-18
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Augustus Brian
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 18:39
No, but I speed read it, looks like a bunch of BS with no credible source, plus I live here and know more than you about the place.  So you don't like the USA, that's cool we don't want you here, go to China.  I think the UK is a nanny State and probably won't ever go back but guess what, a guy on the internet arguing is meaningless and my opinion won't change a darn thing in the UK.

Having said that I'm about to renew my British p assport because you never know and one really should never say never

AlecW:

You are lucky, and likely perhaps fortunate. I wish I shared your optimism. All I seem to see is smoke and mirrors, combined with outright lies.

Keep Smiling,

Augustus
2017-2-18
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RedHotPoker
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Oh Canada, our home and native land...


RedHotPoker
2017-2-18
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dronist
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 17:17
Why would we care about what the rest of the world thinks about our election process?   The EC works, maybe you don't understand it.   FYI I did not vote for Trump but I like some of what he's doing, especially America first.

Alec.,... What America first... It seems POTUS's pocket FIRST and his FRIENDS' pocket SECOND. The EC system has to change. ONE PERSON ONE VOTE. It is NOT about state with large population or not but people making THEIR OWN VOTE count.

EC worked in the old days when we had few states it needs to change with time like everything else so we can really become a "TRUE DEMOCRACY" and NOT few people in a committee's close door in each county deciding who can run or not or who can we elect or not.  

Now to a more IMPORTANT ISSUE AT HAND:

POLL of NO POLLS. Am with the OP on that especially when you have polls that runs for EVER.
2017-2-18
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Geebax
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Isn't the EC system in place because the founding fathers thought the people were too dumb to properly elect a president?
2017-2-18
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joe_gadget
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Ultimately who really cares? Call it a questionnaire then - at the end of the day the result is still the same. Everyone knows the results will be biased by those who feel strongly enough to respond.
2017-2-18
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 21:47
Our president was elected properly according to our laws.   I guess a bunch of drone owners in other counties don't like the USA for that. Oh well, best deal with it you can't do a thing about it.

"I guess a bunch of drone owners in other counties don't like the USA for that."

I don't think I detected any hint of anyone not liking the USA.
It's quite possible to think that the ratings obsessed narcisistic freak they elected as President is a dangerous bully and a con man or that their electoral system is completely weird and still like a lot about the people and the country.
2017-2-18
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 21:22
Read my posts I did not vote for him or Her actually. But... America first is an agenda I like..

I like the EC but it can be changed as can all our laws.   Just takes 2/3rds of States to ratify and it's a done deal.

I read it... but like GEEBAX  said he pulled the con of the century or maybe the best con since our foundation.
2017-2-19
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-18 21:27
""TRUE DEMOCRACY" and NOT few people in a committee deciding who can run or not."

Think abut that.  Do you think Trump was the person that committee decided they wanted to be POTUS?

I am talking beside Presidential election... From senators to Congressman to Treasurer to Commissioners.
Few people in local county committees who obviously got in it because of money or favors decide who run under their party.
2017-2-19
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VectorSP1
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Hello, from sunny South Africa....! If you want "one man, one vote" come over heree and see for your self if thats what you really want... ! I'll rather take Trump a thousand times over !
2017-2-19
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Punchbuggy
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Hey, a very interesting political conversation - which is completely off-topic. But then, that's how most of the polls which have been started recently have gone, principally because the objective of the poll is sooo vague that conversation naturally wobbles. So I'll add to it (hehe).

Alec, it's terrific that you are passionate in your view, and I respect your defence of the system. But even Trump now has been commenting that the EC system is flawed, which matches the other voices now given the popular vote was clearly for Clinton. And we both agree that the votes weren't for Donald Trump - the votes were for 'change' from the establishment, and under that banner even Donald Duck could have been voted in.

Anyway, to 'America First' - with the objective being one of isolationalism and a kick to globalisation (which sadly BREXIT is also). The U.S. actually requires globalisation to continue to exist - consider where most of your oil comes from, for example. And most cars sold there are Japanese because they are cheap, fuel-efficient and reliable. And when you open your Heiniken and sit down in front of your Samsung TV, think about that too.

But I'll admit to smarting when I read 'We pay too much of our taxes for global security and get involved is stuff we should walk away from, you guys are all going to have pay a lot more for that security or lose it.' Well, Australia fought alongside the U.S. in wars which had nothing to do with us (someone mention Vietnam?), and that was purely one of support, and the U.S. also enjoys many of our exports too. Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie !!

Edit: And I should say that my first statement was not directed at the op.
2017-2-19
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Punchbuggy Posted at 2017-2-19 15:55
Hey, a very interesting political conversation - which is completely off-topic. But then, that's how most of the polls which have been started recently have gone, principally because the objective of the poll is sooo vague that conversation naturally wobbles. So I'll add to it (hehe).

Alec, it's terrific that you are passionate in your view, and I respect your defence of the system. But even Trump now has been commenting that the EC system is flawed, which matches the other voices now given the popular vote was clearly for Clinton. And we both agree that the votes weren't for Donald Trump - the votes were for 'change' from the establishment, and under that banner even Donald Duck could have been voted in.

"Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie !!"...Oy, Oy, Oy !!!

Surely you don't mean Fosters or 4X ?

I think your comment regarding isolationism is spot on, on both accounts, it's now up to the good people of the world to sort out in a humanitarian fashion.
I strongly suspect that these are victories for apathy, what proportions in the democracies couldn't be bothered to vote ?

To get back on topic nobody is forced into voting on any Poll that is posted, it would be fair to assume the more meaningful ones would get the most support.
2017-2-19
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Aardvark Posted at 2017-2-19 16:30
"Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie !!"...Oy, Oy, Oy !!!

Surely you don't mean Fosters or 4X ?

Haha. No, not Fosters or XXXX. I was thinking wool, iron ore, beef/lamb, wheat etc

I think that the Fosters label is actually only used for the export market now, and XXXX seems to be limited on tap here to XXXX Gold (the original one referred to generally is XXXX Bitter, but my Queenslander colleagues can correct me here). Interestingly, in support of my globalisation 'soapbox', when I walk into a club or bar now it's mostly boutique beers on tap, sprinkled with Asahi, Guinness, Peroni, and Kilkenny etc. If it was just Resches, Carlton, Tooheys and XXXX Gold, life wouldn't be as exciting.

And agree re polls. I'm only participating in those I understand, but I saw some comments in this one which I thought I Had to wade in on. (hehe)
2017-2-19
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-19 16:55
You spend 1.9% GDP on military we are spending 3.3% as of 2015 and that cost us 597.5 Billion and your country 22.8 bn.

Yeah, but that's because everyone wants to blow you guys up with Trump's 'sabre rattling'. No, you guys are welcome to a war over the South China Sea. But if anyone else tries to take the Bass Strait - that's another matter. I won't have Tasmania annexed !!

Whereas everyone loves Australia - no point blowing up our beaches, beer or beautiful women. And who doesn't like Koalas?

Edit: Oh, and your TVs and computers. I think you should check the label... (haha) And the Trump pipeline comment was funny..

2017-2-19
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Labroides
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-19 16:55
We don't need to be isolationists but I do believe we are spending too much to protect other countries.

Looks like the thread is off the rails completely anyway so ....

If you believe that much of that military spending was to "protect other countries" you've been sharing Trump's Koolade for too long.
The US has the worlds largest military and use it to wage unjustified and even illegal wars that go on for years all over the world.
That's where the $$ go.
And rather than protecting other countries  it only makes the world a more dangerous place.
2017-2-19
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-19 16:55
We don't need to be isolationists but I do believe we are spending too much to protect other countries.

"We are fine, we have lots of oil here, we could make our own TVs and computers if we wanted to and our beer is pretty good nowadays    "

Absolutely correct, and the reduction in demand by the USA on the world markets is exactly what's driven the oil price down. But environmentalists have good cause for concern, Mother nature can dish out a justice much harsher than that proposed by our nuclear age

Surely an ideal situation would be to spend zero on the military, perhaps a world where there is no perception of threat that we feel we need to defend ourselves against.

Certainly I don't feel threatened by any European country Western or Eastern, I think they all have too many other things to think about. So no defence or spending required. The biggest single threat is 'terrorism'  whatever its cause, and one person in particular (all present company excluded) seems to enjoy promoting fear amongst his people for his own ends. The Swedes now have more comedy material than ever before
2017-2-19
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-19 17:39
You can't read.  Those numbers were 2015 and I said we "could" not "do" make electronics.

Hey Alec, yup - I can read. But sandbox wars? I thought we were having a little fun up here, and there's a lot of material with U.S. politics at the moment. Anyway, no offence was intended to you - even if I don't believe that the world needs the protection of the U.S. But I do believe that the world Does need protection from a Trump-led U.S. (haha)
I'm off my political soapbox now...
2017-2-19
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AlecW Posted at 2017-2-19 17:49
Zero military would be a mistake, we will always be number 1 there, we simply have more money.
Agree fossil is not good but don't know nuclear is the answer.  Renewable is the way to go and the US has a ways to go https://cleantechnica.com/2016/02/04/how-11-countries-are-leading-the-shift-to-renewable-energy/   Sweden is on top there even if rape is up due to refugees and their version of SNL has some good new material.

Were probably not too far off the same level, but regarding US wealth:-

http://usdebtclock.org/

Anyway, time will tell, and history will bear witness to the Donalds predictions.

Edit, just to keep things in perspective, national debts worldwide :-

http://usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
2017-2-19
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Aardvark
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Did you know :-

"The United States and Russia are just a few kilometers apart!
The island of Big Diomede is in Russian territory, and not far away is Little Diomede, which is part of the United States.
At their closest points, the two islands are about 3.8 km (2.4 mi) apart.

If you could handle the cold water, you could swim from the USA to Russia!"
2017-2-19
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Punchbuggy
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Hmm, we should take away all of their toys and give them some Phantoms to play with...
2017-2-19
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Bekaru Tree
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rules in the academic world appear somewhat differant to those that apply to us regular folks. I respect that you have yr rules and respect you for adhering to them. for many of us those same rules do not apply. We are less rigid, maybe partly because we are not here working to prove any point but rather using the forum to share ideas and solutions and questions between people from just about every place on earth where the sharing of information superceeds that need to be technically right about every detail. i respectfully suggest a solution to yr dilema: in yr (academic world) stick to those rules - in this world (dji forum and where ever people do not seem to agree to be governed by the rules of the academic world) then go with their rules. ie this may not be a poll strictly according defintition but it is a suitable and accepted term that mostly every other dji forum user understands and is happy to use.
2017-7-9
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