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The Horizon Tilt Issue Could Be A Gimbal Construction Issue (P4P...
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686 43 2017-3-20 05:52:36
Sestaceans
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NOTE edited:Here is the comparison photo of the resting state between the P4Pro gimbal and the P4Pro+ gimbal.  As you can see one of the gimbals is resting heavily on its side while the other is closer to level (not quite but close).  It's no surprise the the P4Pro+ has the gimbal that is heavily weighted to one side.  When pulled back to center the P4PRo+ slingshots back down unlike the P4Pro which remaims balanced and steady.

I believe the drone body's are the same, however the gimbals ON MY UNIT are not functioning the same (note: an edit for those who needed clarity).
If you have ever run a steadicam, a ronin, movi, a jib, jimmy jib, cammate, or anything that is balanced for or a nice clean horizon,  you know the importance of a properly weighted unit.  The Phantom4Pro+ simply has too much weight on the right side (camera left) to properly support itself especially during turns, therefore the force of your turn could be causing your weight distribution to be uneven possibly resulting in a horizon variation/tilt.  Again,  this is just a possibilty and something I've seen time after time with jibs, Ronins, and the like.   

I don't see how a firmware update will solve this problem as the motor itself seems to weak to adapt if this is in fact a possibility.  If the firmware is able to fix this issue it seems to me like it would be running the risk of tiring out the motor by trying to compensate for the weight on one side.




Updated:
I clarified my statement as to what I mean about the gimbal and the differences.  I agree with you,  there are no differences in theory with the body and gimbal (perhaps why ppl were confused with me saying that mine were physically not the same, in theory they are, in actuality they are not ).
I think you put your finger on the difference between the drones.  I believe the number of faulty batches of P4Pro+ bodies were an assembly line quality control issue and it may be dumb luck that they went out mostly as Pro+ units.    Regardless,  my point (that unfortuntaly got lost) is that I believe the gimbal unit and the uneven balance is due to its poor construction and  is one of the main contributing factors to the drones horizontal tilt.  If the issue is in the gimbal it could perhaps explain the transmission errors as well if there is some type of cable compression, catch/pinch, ribbon cable pull,  etc,  in the gimbal unit which may be contributing to the tilt (however that's just speculation on my part).

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2017-3-20 05:52:36
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taurus35
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As far as I know there is no difference in aircraft between the 4PRO & 4PRO+, they are exactly the same. The only difference comes with the controller for the 4PRO+ that comes with the built in screen.
It can't be just a software or hardware issue as there are tens of thousands of people that don't have this issue. I would assume there are some quality control issues on parts or on assembly.
2017-3-20 06:36:17
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RodneyDangerous
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There is absolutely NO difference between the Pro and Pro+ aircraft. This has nothing to do with the "gimbal weight".

But also, there is. I evidence that there are "thousands" of people without this problem. I'm willing to bet that with enough flying, this problem will reveal itself in every P4 or P4 Pro aircraft.

It results from a mixture of hardware (actual gimbal construction) and software (gimbal reading of IMU values not accounting for certain yaw/flight scenarios.) Sideways at 25-30mph while increasing or decreasing altitude. You will see the problem on every craft. Or slow rotate the aircraft while flying forward (or backward) while also increasing or decreasing altitude. Same thing. Horizon will not remain level.
2017-3-20 07:10:59
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RodneyDangerous Posted at 2017-3-20 07:10
There is absolutely NO difference between the Pro and Pro+ aircraft. This has nothing to do with the "gimbal weight".

But also, there is. I evidence that there are "thousands" of people without this problem. I'm willing to bet that with enough flying, this problem will reveal itself in every P4 or P4 Pro aircraft.

At Rodney, I'm not sure if you read my post or if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me or neither.  By "weight" I mean It is not "weighted" correctly.  AKA it is not balanced correctly .  Not the physical weight.

As far as my drones are concered it's a gimbal issue and the weight variance is the main problem which as you said, could most definitely be a construction issue--that we agree on (I think?).   I'm not claiming all of the P4Pro+ drones have this issue.  The lot mine came out of does (as you can visually see). It's also very easily provable.  By balancing the gimbal,  the horizon issue is less prevelent.  If this was an IMU issue, DJI would have come out with a firmware fix a long time ago.  
Also, you will not see this problem on every DJIP4Pro and DJIP4PRo+ craft.  My P4Pro, does not have this problem and the hundreds and hundreds of complaints about this issue focus mainly around the P4Pro+.. As well,  the Phantom 3 series never had these issues that I encountered (they never "revelaed" themselves......mysterious.....)  
2017-3-20 08:01:30
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RodneyDangerous
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Again, th P4 Pro+ and the P4Pro are identical aircraft.
When the camera leans to the side when it is turned off because one arm weighs more than another means absolutely nothing. The motor is linked to IMU values.

Yes, I'm not saying that this can be fixed with firmware. High end gimbals have a level sensor in the gimbal itself- which is cost prohibitive in these drones.

But your showing a camera going to one side with the craft turned off means nothing. The P3 series did this all the time.  
2017-3-20 08:32:20
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Punchbuggy
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I have to agree with Taurus and RD. The craft are identical apart from the controller, and the cameras on both my P4 and P4P power down to the same angle as the craft on the left in op's photo.

As touched on above, I believe the cameras are just reflecting some inconsistencies in manufacture which are compensated for by the craft's firmware. OK, there Are some real hardware problems with the earlier run of the P4P (such as the gimbal ribbon cable being fitted incorrectly causing it to impact on the camera's self-test on power-up), but I'm still of the belief that further work can be done to optimise the firmware. The fact that DJI haven't got this right yet just says to me that there's many variables to take into account - or perhaps they don't yet understand how to effectively take input from the IMU and code to compensate for all flight scenarios. RD correctly points out that more expensive gimbals use additional dedicated mechanisms to help maintain levelling, but the Phantom has to rely on electronic sensors at this price-point.

Anyway, thanks to the op for the photo and considered view. Certainly interesting to compare two units next to each other.
2017-3-20 14:33:29
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KM5RG-Robert
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And yes the P3 series certainly had/has it's share of crooked horizons also.
2017-3-20 15:36:43
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KM5RG-Robert Posted at 2017-3-20 15:36
And yes the P3 series certainly had/has it's share of crooked horizons also.

I'm not saying they (Phantom 3) were all perfect, neither are the P4Pro and I'm certainly not defending DJI for having a horizon tilt.  It's unacceptable plain and simple.  Personally speaking I had no trouble with horizon tilts on the Phantom 3 Pro, and I did not see a wide range of issue like I see with the Phantom 4 Pro.  So I can only speak to my experience.  As far as the Phantom 3 standard,  I have heard quite a few issues are occuring with it.  Again, not familiar so won't comment.  Thanks for the feedback
2017-3-20 18:02:41
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 18:02
I'm not saying they (Phantom 3) were all perfect, neither are the P4Pro and I'm certainly not defending DJI for having a horizon tilt.  It's unacceptable plain and simple.  Personally speaking I had no trouble with horizon tilts on the Phantom 3 Pro, and I did not see a wide range of issue like I see with the Phantom 4 Pro.  So I can only speak to my experience.  As far as the Phantom 3 standard,  I have heard quite a few issues are occuring with it.  Again, not familiar so won't comment.  Thanks for the feedback

I seem to get a lot of crooked horizons in my video's. It's those damned mountains. Someone forgot to level them all off. On the return journey of this flight of the video taken below my drone came back at 50mph.  That could account for the low battery warning I got at 35% as the drone was battling a tail wind just when hovering.  I actually fly back through the clouds to land at my mountain take off point. The mountain rises right behind my launch site so I do try not to slam into it

Now it's true I've had some vids where the horizon is slightly off. Mainly me doing a yaw at full throttle into a headwind.  Once I stop doing that my horizon shots seem to be fine.  

2017-3-20 18:32:02
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Punchbuggy Posted at 2017-3-20 14:33
I have to agree with Taurus and RD. The craft are identical apart from the controller, and the cameras on both my P4 and P4P power down to the same angle as the craft on the left in op's photo.

As touched on above, I believe the cameras are just reflecting some inconsistencies in manufacture which are compensated for by the craft's firmware. OK, there Are some real hardware problems with the earlier run of the P4P (such as the gimbal ribbon cable being fitted incorrectly causing it to impact on the camera's self-test on power-up), but I'm still of the belief that further work can be done to optimize the firmware. The fact that DJI haven't got this right yet just says to me that there's many variables to take into account - or perhaps they don't yet understand how to effectively take input from the IMU and code to compensate for all flight scenarios. RD correctly points out that more expensive gimbals use additional dedicated mechanisms to help maintain leveling, but the Phantom has to rely on electronic sensors at this price-point.

@ Punchbuggy,  thanks for being civil rather then condescending.  There needs to be more folks on the forum like you!  This is something that I appreciate.  Rather then go in to attack mode you gave a reasoned opinion,  didn't try and show anyone up,  and stated your beliefs while being courteous.  So thank you for that.

My personal belief from owning the two units, hearing what others are saying,  and being able to physically use them and feel them while also correcting the horizon tilt with counter weight is this:

I think the X and Z axis has too much resistance to compensate for the motors power supply.  This is likely due to a bad batch of P4Pro+'s that physically had poor craftsmanship.  If the P4Pro and the P4Pro+ do in fact have the exact same gimbals,  in my case they have created two gimbals with drastically different weight distributions/resistance.  I don't think it's a coincidence.
In the spirit of not being a complete D,  thanks for all of your input (everyone).  I'm not trying to put anyone down, but the real answer is that nobody is 100 percent positive.  However from my 15 years with steadi/jib/stabilizers and a lifetime with RC,  I feel like my point should't be dismissed offhand especially since I work firsthand with both units. My two cents,  I'll leave the rest of you to comments if you feel like it.  I've already said my opinion.   
2017-3-20 18:33:17
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blackcrusader Posted at 2017-3-20 18:32
I seem to get a lot of crooked horizons in my video's. It's those damned mountains. Someone forgot to level them all off. On the return journey of this flight of the video taken below my drone came back at 50mph.  That could account for the low battery warning I got at 35% as the drone was battling a tail wind just when hovering.  I actually fly back through the clouds to land at my mountain take off point. The mountain rises right behind my launch site so I do try not to slam into it

Now it's true I've had some vids where the horizon is slightly off. Mainly me doing a yaw at full throttle into a headwind.  Once I stop doing that my horizon shots seem to be fine.  

Dope video man, where is this shot?
2017-3-20 18:35:15
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Grizz 1 Posted at 2017-3-20 18:37
I believe rodney dangerous is correct. the p4pro aircraft are the same , the p4p+ controller is the only difference.

In the words of Lebowski,  that's not the issue here man!
2017-3-20 18:36:25
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 17:59
"When the camera leans to the side when it is turned off because one arm weighs more than another means absolutely nothing."

TOTALLY FALSE, INCORRECT and outright ignorance of your equimpment. First off you are not reading this statement correctly. ONCE AGAIN WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE GIMABL ARM.  RESISTANCE IS PRESENT ON THE X AND Z AXIS of the P4Pro+ where it is not present on the P4Pro.  If you have ever run a Ronin or a MovI,  or a jib/cam-mate, you know as much (simple cable resistance is enough to throw off your balance).  You do realize that a gimbal runs on the same principals as the Ronin and Movi correct?   Any abnormality in a unit with such a small motor would have an even harder time in recovering from resistantace.   So if you actually own a P4Pro+ and a P4Pro (which I'm sure you do or you wouldn't just be speculating like a fool),  then you can literally feel the resistance.  There is a very distinct pull.   Sorry for being agitated but this is pretty basic.

I believe rodney dangerous is correct. the p4pro aircraft are the same , the p4p+ controller is the only difference.
2017-3-20 18:37:35
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Thanks Sestaceans.  Now is there a way to check the weighted balance of the assembly. Also like a car rim would you sticky some weight on one area to balance the distribution of the weight?

Assuming there would not be overload.  
2017-3-20 18:48:02
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blackcrusader Posted at 2017-3-20 18:48
Thanks Sestaceans.  Now is there a way to check the weighted balance of the assembly. Also like a car rim would you sticky some weight on one area to balance the distribution of the weight?

Assuming there would not be overload.

Did you ever own a Phantom 2 by chance?  If so, you probably had to do a counter balance at one point or another.  I personally use double sided tape and use light weight washers.  The point is to balance your gimbal without the drone on.  It's the same principal as balancing your Ronin or Jib (tons of tutorials online).  If you distibute the weight in a way NOT to hurt your motor you will see better results.  NEVER OVERLOAD YOUR MOTOR.  You can go in to your Assistant application and check your motor resistance (unless it is pre-set for failure by the manufacturer)
2017-3-20 19:02:21
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 18:33
@ Punchbuggy,  thanks for being civil rather then condensing.  There needs to be more folks on the forum like you!  This is something that I appreciate.  Rather then go in to attack mode you gave a reasoned opinion,  didn't try and show anyone up,  and stated your beliefs while being courteous.  So thank you for that.

My personal belief from owning the two units, hearing what others are saying,  and being able to physically use them and feel them while also correcting the horizon tilt with counter weight is this:

Thanks Sestaceans - very kind comments.

From some poking around, there are 3 motors which manage the gimbal: pitch (on the side - camera up/down), roll (at the back - levelling), and yaw (top - left/right). The roll motor is the one in question, I suspect. It's natural for the camera to fall to the same side each time when powered down, as the camera weighting is more offset to that side (you can see that the gimbal arm projects more on that side in your photos). But you'd be aware of this given your balancing solution.

My view is that the roll motor is not receiving an instruction to operate when it should under certain scenarios. So sometimes intervention may be required to give it a 'kick in the pants' - either manually (C2 or 'Adjust Gimbal Roll' on screen), or making it realise (yawing LEFT 360 degrees and letting it hover for 5-10 sec) - the latter works for my P4. I believe that the fact that either approach works to correct levelling, means that the motor Can do it and so it's the firmware letting us down. But as you say, that's my opinion.

I'd be interested in a poll. The people who report issues with horizon levelling - in which direction? I'd bet that it's typically the same direction.
2017-3-20 19:29:52
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RodneyDangerous
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 18:33
@ Punchbuggy,  thanks for being civil rather then condensing.  There needs to be more folks on the forum like you!  This is something that I appreciate.  Rather then go in to attack mode you gave a reasoned opinion,  didn't try and show anyone up,  and stated your beliefs while being courteous.  So thank you for that.

My personal belief from owning the two units, hearing what others are saying,  and being able to physically use them and feel them while also correcting the horizon tilt with counter weight is this:

Don't "condense" too much!
2017-3-20 20:05:29
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RodneyDangerous
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 17:59
"When the camera leans to the side when it is turned off because one arm weighs more than another means absolutely nothing."

TOTALLY FALSE, INCORRECT and outright ignorance of your equimpment. First off you are not reading this statement correctly. ONCE AGAIN WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ACTUAL WEIGHT OF THE GIMABL ARM.  RESISTANCE IS PRESENT ON THE X AND Z AXIS of the P4Pro+ where it is not present on the P4Pro.  If you have ever run a Ronin or a MovI,  or a jib/cam-mate, you know as much (simple cable resistance is enough to throw off your balance).  You do realize that a gimbal runs on the same principals as the Ronin and Movi correct?   Any abnormality in a unit with such a small motor would have an even harder time in recovering from resistantace.   So if you actually own a P4Pro+ and a P4Pro (which I'm sure you do or you wouldn't just be speculating like a fool),  then you can literally feel the resistance.  There is a very distinct pull.   Sorry for being agitated but this is pretty basic.

"Setaceans" - you are completely and utterly, totally, demonstrably, unavoidably, provably, and irrefutably, notwithstanding certifiably....wrong.

The P4Pro and the P4Pro+ are the exact same aircraft. The only difference is the remote control. This has been told to you multiple times by multiple people, and DJI will also happily confirm that.

But you are welcome to entertain us all with your absurd blathering and driveling speculation, "declaring" that you, in your amazing capacity, have "figured it out"! Thanks! Gold star for you, Chief!
2017-3-20 20:05:42
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 18:35
Dope video man, where is this shot?

Did this the a few morning ago.

Yushan National Park Taiwan.  The mountain range behind the first mountain and this is part of Yushan or Jade Mountain in Taiwan. It's is part of my range which is Alishan.

It's the same place I took this.   My next launch will be from the observatory you can see in the middle of the video.  Will give me a launch site at 2890m.  Have to wait for the right conditions to get this type of cloud cover again.

2017-3-20 20:17:04
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The P4P and P4P+ aircraft are identical. However, some have more tug from the gimbal ribbon. Both aircraft's gimabals are equally out of balance. I addressed this issue here Out of balance and show a video of how I balanced mine. I am still not sure if balancing is necessary, I just rather have mine balanced. I do not have gimbal drift but when I fly backwards fast, I get gimbal issues such that the video isn't totally smooth.
2017-3-20 20:47:37
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I agree with RD, the P4Pro+ just has a different controller packaged with it.  You bought a controller with a built-in screen with a P4P+, NOT a different bird.

From a product standpoint it would make ZERO sense to make a specific bird for something that is an option component, in this case the controller.

To prove it, you can buy a Plus controller by itself and link it to a regular P4Pro.  At that point you have the P4Pro+.

I do believe the OP is trying to make a case for DJI to offer some sort of special compensation or is trying to get something out of it.  He is obviously NOT happy with his P4Pro+ and wants some sort of public "outcry" to back his claim.

To the OP, if you understand ANYTHING about stepper motors, servos or anything else in regards to automation, you would know FOR FACT that optically encoded servo devices (which is what the gimbal axis controllers use) are "self fixing" in that the controller sends a signal to set to "X" setting, now if you pull the alignment out via physical force (such as the wind) it will "self correct" back to "X".  There is no extra control involved and it makes no sense to use more complicated control systems for this since you don't have extreme vibration/expansion/contraction or any other sorts of factors that would require a more complicated feedback-based system.  A simple optically encoded servo system is plenty.

Now, that is not to say that the servo systems employed might not be "too weak", but in reality I do believe the whole issue of the gimbal going out of balance is because they use a simple "suspension" gimbal, not a full hydraulically "controlled" gimbal.  ie, the suspension "holds" the gimbal in place and buffers it from vibrations, but that suspension is ultimately at fault for any tilt seen.  Want proof, just twist the gimbal right to the extreme until it reaches it's maximum twist and then turn your bird on.  The camera will NOT be facing forward.  Even with a gimbal calibration and IMU calibration it cannot "fix it" to point forward since it is a mechanical issue.  Twist it back to the left and make sure it isn't cranked too far that way and it puts it within "adjustability".

That "slop" is the suspension aspect that allows the gimbal to keep from having vibrations and it ultimately is what gets "jacked" off to one side or another and the bird "thinks" it is level when it is physically tilted.  Now, can they "fix" that level of tilt via a servo command, sure.  But there has to be some way for it to know it is off as far as it is before it can make that command.

Now, I have ZERO idea how they implemented their gimbal control, so they may just as well be able to "fix it" via firmware, but the big question is why they have not to date done so.  Now if they physically are reading sensors in the bird with no idea how the gimbal is "sitting" because there are not sensors in the gimbal itself, than that is a design "flaw", ie, without sensors in the gimbal they can never account for physical suspension problems since there is no way of "knowing" that such a problem exists.  But, if the gimbal itself is MORE than just servos and a camera, and sensors exist inside of it, then it also seems like a big problem that it is not reacting the way it should be reacting.  Personally it is looking more and more like the IMU in the bird itself is just commanding simple gimbal servo adjustments based on what it reads, in which case the gimbal is not where the sensors are, and I highly doubt they can take care of physical suspension issues in an automated manner.  <- I would love to hear back from someone at DJI as to the that part of their design to clarify if the gimbal itself is "smart" and feeds back to the bird to correlate with the IMU to determine corrections, or if it is "dumb" and just takes commands from the "assumption" of how it *should* be sitting based on it's previous calibration.  If it is the former, than what is the issue and why would the level EVER be off if it has the sensors to read what is going on and then correlate those with the IMU to come up with what is "level" and then verify it.

Personally it is a crap-shoot on my own P4Pro as to if I get a straight horizon or a tilted one.  I do know it is an issue.  It would be less of one if even DJI came out and offered a procedure to go through before launch to ensure you get a level horizon on each flight.  Sure it isn't a "fix", but it would certainly help work around the "flaw" until they can come up with a better solution.
2017-3-20 21:02:52
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Brian Fist Posted at 2017-3-20 21:02
I agree with RD, the P4Pro+ just has a different controller packaged with it.  You bought a controller with a built-in screen with a P4P+, NOT a different bird.

From a product standpoint it would make ZERO sense to make a specific bird for something that is an option component, in this case the controller.

Nicely put forward Brian. I don't believe the op is after compensation, but like the rest of us he's trying to get it working for him.

Regardless, I'd love to hear from a DJI tech on how it's calculated too. Until then, I believe that the gimbal calibration uses a calibrated IMU to position the gimbal level, and that becomes the baseline (Point Zero). Once in the air, the craft logic uses sensors to determine craft angle etc and offsets the baseline as necessary to emulate a level camera i.e. where it 'thinks' it should be (what you said). But sometimes it doesn't compensate correctly, misses a beat, whatever, and manual adjustment may be required on-the-fly to reset it to what we visually see is level. I suspect that may be why a 360 yaw may sometimes work to correct horizon level, as it knows then that it's actually level and can move the camera back to the baseline angles based on that.

Re-reading that, I think I've been working in the IT industry for toooo long. I'm thinking in artificial logic.
2017-3-20 22:37:34
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P4P+ Posted at 2017-3-20 20:47
The P4P and P4P+ aircraft are identical. However, some have more tug from the gimbal ribbon. Both aircraft's gimabals are equally out of balance. I addressed this issue here Out of balance and show a video of how I balanced mine. I am still not sure if balancing is necessary, I just rather have mine balanced. I do not have gimbal drift but when I fly backwards fast, I get gimbal issues such that the video isn't totally smooth.

Though your units may both in fact be.  Mine are not.  I am not discounting what you are saying, I'm just telling you the status of my personal units.  Regardless,  thank you for taking the time to post that.
2017-3-21 00:49:38
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Brian Fist Posted at 2017-3-20 21:02
I agree with RD, the P4Pro+ just has a different controller packaged with it.  You bought a controller with a built-in screen with a P4P+, NOT a different bird.

From a product standpoint it would make ZERO sense to make a specific bird for something that is an option component, in this case the controller.

Brain (O),

You sure did make a lot of assumption about me on a personal level while not even bothering to read my post that addressed things you mentioned.  That's classy of you.
For one,  I have both of these drones, I have DJI care for the +, and don't need a damn thing from anyone.   Like everyone else on here without DJI affiliation, I am advocating for a quick fix for the P4Pro+, as these drones are used by our employees and I would of course like them to work properly like I imagine you would.  
I do believe DJI has some of the best engineers in the world working for them, and even though most critics of DJI get kicked off of the forum becasuse of the "hive", this doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. It's very suprising to me that a "firmware" fix has not been issued and units are being replaced and returned without video transmission or horizon issues being taken care (if it is just as easy as you seem to claim)..
If you had taken the time to read my post instead of wooing us with your knowledge of sensor technology,  which in this case is moot ,  as my drone well and gimbal both have issues not related to the sensors but weight (or a possible ribbon pull). .  You are not the only one who can read a diagnostic test my friend, but you are entitled to your opinion,  which I would have appreciated.   I took my time to read your response however it seems you didn't bother to do the same as you,  and felt the need to be negative.  You do you.
2017-3-21 01:34:26
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Brian Fist Posted at 2017-3-20 21:02
I agree with RD, the P4Pro+ just has a different controller packaged with it.  You bought a controller with a built-in screen with a P4P+, NOT a different bird.

From a product standpoint it would make ZERO sense to make a specific bird for something that is an option component, in this case the controller.

I found this on the sensors used in the P4.. I cannot believe they would have anything less in the P4P.. How all this interacts with each other is beyond my technical skills, but it is interesting that the gimbal driver board has its own instrumentation - again, it doesn't say where it is, just "gimbal driver board".
(source http://www.techinsights.com/repo ... le/?ReportKey=11239 )


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2017-3-21 05:17:51
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Why not try to balance it and see what effect it has?

If you check the Inspire forum, DJI sells balance rings for that model where changing lenses calls for them.  Some stick weights on the gimbal.  Some melt lead in the bottom of Coke cans and Velcro them on the backs or to one side.

I know if I yaw my P4 quickly, the horizon can be off.  Might be winds aloft at times too.  I just have to accept the fact these are not some military-grade aircraft.
2017-3-21 06:20:21
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Sestaceans it is quite obvious that you somehow think paying for a Pro+ is somehow qualifying you to "better service" or a "better experience".  You paid for an integrated tablet, nothing more. And, btw, I DID read your entire post and it was sickeningly thick with pompous ignorance that somehow the Pro+ was "special" and due more "care and diligence" than the P4Pro.  That is a joke.  The Pro+ owners are due no more "special treatment" than the rest of us that bought the P4Pro.  If a solution to problems are found on one they are automatically fixed on the other since they are all the SAME PRODUCT!

The idea of balance is a non-issue.  That is why you use optical servos, so they go to where they are told and stay there.  Balance would have to be quite excessive and I am talking to a factor of 2x the "operating torque" to allow the servo to "be out of balance", but even in that case you would see a constant struggle of the servo to correct, not a "lazy" off-level situation that we are all seeing.

Also, if you are using these for monetary reasons (ie, it is for business usage, which it is obvious based upon your post), then you should by all means "man up" and buy the professional device, that being the Inspire 2.  You are using a consumer level device and in turn "b*tching and moaning" because it doesn't allow you the video/pictures you want on the cheap.  If you are making money, then invest in the pro equipment.  To berate a consumer level product because you can't get away with the footage you want "on the cheap" is just ignorant.  You are solely complaining because you flat out don't want to spend the money you should to play "with the big boys".  It is called a business "investment".  Buy the equipment you need, take the footage in perfect quality and bill for it.  As you said, "you do you", just don't be greedy about it.

Now, Mobilcams, per what you posted, unless there is other sensors in the gimbal itself, then it *IS* as I suspected that there is no reading of the actual gimbal and it uses the gimbal calibration to set the "baseline" and works from there, so any physical change in how the gimbal sits before flight will end up being exactly what you see in the final footage.

So, the real question here is, should you ALWAYS do a gimbal calibration before each and every flight??? <- DJI, please clarify.

If so, before you do the calibration, is there anything *we* as consumers should be doing, such as pulling the gimbal center before doing the calibration?

I would think a simple matter of centering the gimbal twist as well as pulling down on the gimbal once centered to verify it is in "rest state" and then doing a calibration would be enough to "fix" a tilted horizon issue, if that is the case.

Now, that all assumes that you have done a *PERFECTLY LEVEL* IMU calibration.  When I say level, I mean getting out a actual level and verifying the surface you are doing a IMU calibration on is level front to back, left to right and across both diagonals.  It also means it is a totally solid and non-moving surface.  I do not know the level of sensitivity but even someone walking into a room (or the person doing the calibration themselves moving around) WHILE it is calibrating might just be enough to throw it off.  Plus I would imagine you want to be outside in an open space as well since almost all homes have some level of magnetic "signature" to them that might throw off the calibration as well.  The positive here is that outside of firmware updates I don't think you would really EVER need to do more than one "perfect" IMU calibration.  You may need to do another if you travel and do a shoot in another area of the country or even the world, but that goes without saying that for "perfect footage" I would imagine I would want to do that "on location" just to be sure anyways.  Then again, if the IMU calibration "holds true" it probably only needs to be done once, as long as the physical state of the bird does change (such as a crash) that would throw off the way everything "sits".

2017-3-21 17:11:39
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-21 00:49
Though your units may both in fact be.  Mine are not.  I am not discounting what you are saying, I'm just telling you the status of my personal units.  Regardless,  thank you for taking the time to post that.

I don't have a non-P4P to compare to, but yours show that there is clearly a difference in balance. The AC should be the same, but there is something different with your non plus version for it to be balanced better. It seems like no P4P is built alike.
I work with a video camera stabilizer and if the camera is not perfectly balanced, the gimbal and camera will shake. That is why I noticed that my Phantom camera was out of balance and why I prefer to have my Phantom camera balanced.
2017-3-21 21:11:23
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taurus35 Posted at 2017-3-20 06:36
As far as I know there is no difference in aircraft between the 4PRO & 4PRO+, they are exactly the same. The only difference comes with the controller for the 4PRO+ that comes with the built in screen.
It can't be just a software or hardware issue as there are tens of thousands of people that don't have this issue. I would assume there are some quality control issues on parts or on assembly.

@Taurus35,  I clarified my statement as to what I mean about the gimbal and the differences.  I agree with you,  there are no differences in theory with the body and gimbal (perhaps why ppl were confused with me saying that mine were physically not the same, in theory they are, in actuality they are not ).
I think you put your finger on the difference between the drones.  I believe the number of faulty batches of P4Pro+ bodies were an assembly line quality control issue and it may be dumb luck that they went out mostly as Pro+ units.    Regardless,  my point (that unfortuntaly got lost) is that I believe the gimbal unit and the uneven balance is due to its poor construction and  is one of the main contributing factors to the drones horizontal tilt.  If the issue is in the gimbal it could perhaps explain the transmission errors as well if there is some type of cable compression, catch/pinch, ribbon cable pull,  etc,  in the gimbal unit which may be contributing to the tilt (however that's just speculation on my part).
2017-3-22 20:21:49
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Brian Fist Posted at 2017-3-21 17:11
Sestaceans it is quite obvious that you somehow think paying for a Pro+ is somehow qualifying you to "better service" or a "better experience".  You paid for an integrated tablet, nothing more. And, btw, I DID read your entire post and it was sickeningly thick with pompous ignorance that somehow the Pro+ was "special" and due more "care and diligence" than the P4Pro.  That is a joke.  The Pro+ owners are due no more "special treatment" than the rest of us that bought the P4Pro.  If a solution to problems are found on one they are automatically fixed on the other since they are all the SAME PRODUCT!

The idea of balance is a non-issue.  That is why you use optical servos, so they go to where they are told and stay there.  Balance would have to be quite excessive and I am talking to a factor of 2x the "operating torque" to allow the servo to "be out of balance", but even in that case you would see a constant struggle of the servo to correct, not a "lazy" off-level situation that we are all seeing.

This is by far the most hilarious, mean-spirited, angry, and self quoted post I've read in 3+ years on this forum..
I may be opinionated however I am not mean spirited or hateful,  and I refuse to follow your lead in that respect.  In fact I did enjoy some of the humor in your post.  First off,  your use of quotations are second to none.  Though you are not quoting anyone,  I find it fascinating you still used them.  

Next you mentioned,  "If a solution to problems are found on one they are automatically fixed on the other since they are all the SAME PRODUCT!"   Now this is amazing!! Everyone "Brain" Fist has tackled the horizon issue.  If I only knew to install my fixed P4Pro's firmware in to my P4Pro+ I could have had this bird flying ages ago with no horizon or transmission issues.  This is pure genius and I imagine the "entire forum" is grateful to you for cracking the code.  I'm serious,  you should tell DJI about your find!

One thing I will tell you that you need to know :
There are many conditions which can degrade image quality including the components of the optical system and its position controls. The first conclusion for a gimbal mounted optical system is that the optimum image quality for a given sensor, lens, image processor, and /or positioning servo control system is obtained when the gimbal is locked (caged) and the vehicle is stationary. That is, the best image  obtained in the absence of external vibrations, acceleration, or motion.  Since any real application for a gimbal mounted cam is unlikely to be stationary and vibration free,  you can  attempt to optimize the image in a number of ways.  The one method which reduces the effect of vibration and other accelerations and does not add a weight penalty is to balance the gimbal.  Balancing always acts to improve the image quality regardless of the type of sensor, source or magnitude of external accelerations, type of control system, or inherent quality of the imaging system. Gimbal balancing has the added advantage of potentially reducing the required total mass and/or increasing the payload.

For you to say that the balance on a drone you don't have or have never flown and tested is not even a possible culprit is odd.  I would also like to inform you many of the other questions you ask DJI are in the manual.

As far as your personal attacks on me...... I wish you nothing but the best bud.






2017-3-23 04:03:06
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That is the most sidestepped response I have ever heard from anyone.  You must be a politician.

You have literally not mentioned one single thing of value, pertinence or impact towards anything.  Your response also goes to show how little you can comprehend what is being discussed.  It is obtuse for the sake of deferral.  Sounds a hell of a lot like something that would come from someone who refuses to admit anything, or agree with anything, or add to anything.  Basically you can't even comprehend the discussion, thus you generate more noise to cover that fact up.

It is obvious there is no talking to someone with the inability to even try to understand.  And your adjectives at the beginning of your last post are an attempt to try to make me out to be the "bad guy" and it is quite obvious YOU are the one with the issue.  Basically you can't add anything of real value, nor show your understanding or even the ability to comprehend.  The discussion is done.  No sense to try to point-to-point with you since it is all just gibberish.
2017-3-23 18:40:27
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Brian Fist Posted at 2017-3-23 18:40
That is the most sidestepped response I have ever heard from anyone.  You must be a politician.

You have literally not mentioned one single thing of value, pertinence or impact towards anything.  Your response also goes to show how little you can comprehend what is being discussed.  It is obtuse for the sake of deferral.  Sounds a hell of a lot like something that would come from someone who refuses to admit anything, or agree with anything, or add to anything.  Basically you can't even comprehend the discussion, thus you generate more noise to cover that fact up.

Ok here is the deal.  I'm not side stepping you but your animosity is not new to the forum nor is your newbie know it all mentality..  Flying drones are awesome.  That is why we are all here right?  However there is no need to get so incredibly heated.

You've flown for two/three  weeks now and are excited about your drone and are learning things you never knew before.  You want me to take you seriously so badly but you don't know or understand the basics,  which is fine because you've only been flying two weeks.  
Learn how to read your compass (in the app),  find out when it needs calibration and when it's appropriate to calibrate your IMU--a question you asked ( automatic prompts will notify you).   You didn't know your GPS worked poorly inside, and therefore you crashed your drone and blamed it on the firmware--it wasn't, it was clearly your fault.  You do not know the correlation between sensor and gimbal and still think proper gimbal balance in not important even with these fancy sensors.   I would argue that they are even more important and the US military would agree.
You said these drones are not professional.  You don't understand that these drones can absolutely be professionally used.   Depending on your talent,  you can make some real nice art with ANY drone in the Phantom line.  A consumer drone is just a name and a way for you to downplay your inability to make something wonderful out of it.  Another answer to why the P4Pro+ line is professional (if it ever worked correctly) is because it can be used in a number of professional ways.  For example it can be used for live Broadcasting up to 1080/60p to a LiveU which for such a tiny unit is amazing.  Also it can generate H.265/  60fps 4k in cine-log et etc.  An editor worth his weight could make that look professional when shot correctly.  By any prosumer standard this is very impressive (even with the 4k being compressed).   You say,  "buy a PROFESSIONAL drone" like the Inspire 2 and "man up".  Well, guess what.  The original stock camera for the "MANLY" Inspire 2 drone has the exact same specs as the one on the Phantom4Pro.

Regardless of all of this,  you are welcome to your opinion.  I totally welcome that actually.  However,  you took time out of your day to write 8 full paragraphs personally attacking me on a drone forum, not about the topic or the drone, but about me personally (again, on a "HOBBY" drone forum).  Perhaps you are a double agent,  and perhaps you have reached a low point for this forum.  


2017-3-23 21:22:41
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Wow... You just won't stop.  You want ot bring up other posts, so be it, but to clarify, the crash I had was ONLY because it did a firmware update and it wasn't reset back to factory specs.  I spoke to a few other P4P pilots that had the EXACT SAME THING happen to them on the same update.

You know nothing about me, yet you come off acting like you know more than anyone.  To clarify, NOTHING I ever asked about is answered in ANY literature or on the forum itself.  Thus the inquiry with DJI themselves.

The gimbal on the P4P is so light that any "imbalance" you state is complete and utter stupidity.  Nothing more.  It is a moot point, a non-issue.  Ask DJI and they will state the same.  you still harp on it and yet you have no clue.  On larger gimbals and with gimbals that allow different cameras to be changed out then balance becomes an issue, but not on something the size of the P4Ps.  The US military does NOT fly P4Ps and they don't have an open case with DJI about "balancing those gimbals for national security".  Again, you inferences are poor and ignorant.

Just because the P4P *CAN* be used to get great professional results, the *PROPER* product for anyone making any real money doing this is the Inspire 2.  To argue otherwise goes to show how "not serious" you are about your business.  There is a reason people actually expect the Inspire line when taking certain video and part of that is because people expect the person they are hiring to be a "Pro" and know which product will get the best results in ALL circumstances.  The P4P has limitations and compromises, just like any consumer level product.  And I am not talking about someone out doing this stuff as a "side business" and generating some additional income, but if you are doing this as a primary part of a video-shooting business then I would expect you to own not only a P4P but also an Inspire/Inspire 2 as well as other devices that allow you to get "the perfect take" at any time in almost any condition.  I mean one of the biggest additions to the Inspire 2 is the ability to add lenses including zooms.

And, honestly, I cannot stand when people like you post on a forum with misinformation and an attitude of expecting that you are somehow "special" because you bought a differently optioned product that is the same as everyone elses.  That kind of "elitism" is what is wrong in most things in life and gives people the completely wrong impression, ie that they have to buy the P4Pro+ to have "the best" and "most supported" high-end product.  The Pro+ only gives you in integrated tablet, nothing more.
2017-3-24 13:17:24
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I must add here that Mr. Brian Fist has totally schooled "Setaceans".  A word to "Setaceans" - you may want to stop digging yourself into a deeper hole.
2017-3-24 13:36:39
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Sestaceans Posted at 2017-3-20 18:36
In the words of Lebowski,  that's not the issue here man!

exactly what is the issue here man. construcion is not even in the english dictionary !
2017-3-24 16:53:01
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RodneyDangerous Posted at 2017-3-24 13:36
I must add here that Mr. Brian Fist has totally schooled "Setaceans".  A word to "Setaceans" - you may want to stop digging yourself into a deeper hole.

Yah , totally schooled by your other profile.
2017-3-24 23:10:53
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Wrong...

I have my own profile.  And I have only the one.  

Again, more noise being attempted...
2017-3-24 23:22:29
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If you two weren't so stubborn on your views you would be able to see that you both have some valid points and are in some ways arguing similar points.   
1. Both Balance and the Sensors Are necessary for the drone to work optimally.  That is not to say one could not work without exact proper balance nor is it so say the sensor couldn't compensate for major balance aberrations--porbably could, however optimal situations increases your success. .   The best case scenario is both of what you two feel is most important,  to simply work at its maximum potential.  
2.  The Phantom 4 Pro series can definitely be used for professional use.   The megapixels alone are enough to justify professional aerial photography and the video in log modes can surely be used in numerous documentary and commercial capacities and edited with great depth in Divinci and other programs.  However the Inspire series, as Brian said is obviously optimal.  However I don't think Sustacian was saying otherwise considering it says he actually has one on his user profile.  So maybe he is just defending it's capabilities as a drone..  Either way,  you guys need
Neither of you are wrong,  you guys are both just stubborn.   
To Sestas point,  he was talking about the weight difference in his drone,  yet it looks like others misconstrued this in to him saying this about all of the P4Pro's and P4Pro+'s.
To Brian's point,  in theory the motors and sensors should be strong enough to hold the horizon correctly on such a small unit.   
An exact resitance against "level" would be needed, or else you are both just arguing hypothetically.


Now here is MY point!!   I've been reading all of these threads where people complain about the P4Pro+ because I am having the same issues.  So has anyone who is experiencing these same difficulties found a solution via DJI?   How many units were affected,  just a few or many?   Everyone is always fighting on this forum so I never know what the true stats!!  Half of the forum is militantly pro-DJI and the other half is angry at DJI, so I never know the truth.  However it is nice to see the flight numbers on people profile now so we can tell who has experience, emperically speaking of course.
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24ctDrone Posted at 2017-3-30 00:27
If you two weren't so stubborn on your views you would be able to see that you both have some valid points and are in some ways arguing similar points.   
1. Both Balance and the Sensors Are necessary for the drone to work optimally.  That is not to say one could not work without exact proper balance nor is it so say the sensor couldn't compensate for major balance aberrations--porbably could, however optimal situations increases your success. .   The best case scenario is both of what you two feel is most important,  to simply work at its maximum potential.  
2.  The Phantom 4 Pro series can definitely be used for professional use.   The megapixels alone are enough to justify professional aerial photography and the video in log modes can surely be used in numerous documentary and commercial capacities and edited with great depth in Divinci and other programs.  However the Inspire series, as Brian said is obviously optimal.  However I don't think Sustacian was saying otherwise considering it says he actually has one on his user profile.  So maybe he is just defending it's capabilities as a drone..  Either way,  you guys need

I welcome your feedback, and I would agree.  There are similarities in what we said.   It wasn't that fact that irked me. Everyone is welcome to have an opinion.  Punchbuggy is a great example of someone who disagreed with me yet was polite and thoughtful.  B.FIst had an immediate dismissal of my point, even though it has been well researched and based on logical scientific precedent and a lifetime of flying RC,  that got me going.  His misreading of the top thread also started up a long line of other vitriolic posts that got us so off topic.  Topping things off,  I have two accounts with no drone usage (no offense) going after me,  acting like children saying "you got schooled".  This is obviously a teenager or grade school child who should not be on the forums.  I know the mods are looking at a way of improving dialogue between professional users and then those that do this recreationally.  Hopefully it will solve problems with trolls.  Anyway this thread is dead
7 hours ago
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Sestaceans, you are a so ignorant it is sickening...

To point I am in my mid-40s.  Single account... Don't care to post flight distance because I am not in a competition with anyone (unlike a LOT on here that act like their flight distance proves anything).

You are far from professional, you are flat out WRONG and unable to make even common sense.

To fact, the weight of the camera on the P4Pro quads is INSIGNIFICANT in regards to gimbal control.  That is the FACT, end of subject.  And the tilt is NOT caused by the weight of the camera in either direction.

When you come on here and post like you are owed something (you are NOT) and you somehow have an idea that *might* be something (which we have all proven is NOT ANYTHING) and continue with your drivel and refuse to even acknowledge anything anyone is telling you because you somehow are narcissistic enough to think you are right with no common sense or engineering understanding, it tends to really irk the rest of us with not only an actual clue, but accomplishments in life that far outweigh anything you bring to the table (which is obvious by the lack of intelligence in your writing) and actually know how things work and operate to the point that certain things can be completely and utterly WRONG, yet the person stating them will not even begin to consider they DON'T HAVE A CLUE because they can't reason.

Just because you can make money DOES NOT make you a professional.  That is as bad as all those people that think politicians can be trusted.  Or those that think just because people make money makes them somehow "better" than others.  Those same people act JUST LIKE YOU and refuse to understand they can't even begin to fathom all the things necessary to make such assumptions.  People like you just try to act "above" everyone else, yet still can't even add one iota of salient information that means anything, other then the fact that they "work in the business".  Just because people get results doesn't mean they understand the tools the use.  Tech has gotten to the point that even really stupid people can accomplish some things.  There is the requirement of humility necessary to temper experience and success lest more end up thinking and acting like you.
4 hours ago
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