The Saint Posted at 10-12 04:31
Oh ok, so let me see if I understand this correctly.  You are saying:  When the new rules go into effect at the beginning of the year, if DJI makes changes to the Mini drone, the restriction would not only install a max height altitude (vertical) of 120m from the take off point but also it will install a max distance (horizontal) of 120m from the take off point as well, is that correct?

Never heard that before.

Using common sense, it dictates that going up a hill and hitting a 120m height restriction also stops you going forward, does it not? As per Seans drawing.... granted, you could go around the hill at that point but then you shouldn't have to do that because the drone would be on the blooming ground, would it not?

The Saint Posted at 10-12 05:53
already knew that.  i understand people are afraid of what's coming in the future.

as of right now, today, all is well, correct?

"already knew that." then why post  "i don't understand how this limits everyone living in the mountainous areas, please explain?" ?

Yes but the new rule comes into force in the EU on January 1st 2024 EU fliers in mountaious areas will, most likely, be needing lubricant.

Bashy Posted at 10-12 05:56
Using common sense, it dictates that going up a hill and hitting a 120m height restriction also stops you going forward, does it not? As per Seans drawing.... granted, you could go around the hill at that point but then you shouldn't have to do that because the drone would be on the blooming ground, would it not?

Ah but ...... you'd lose signal so 'you' are still beep beeped.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 10-12 05:58
"already knew that." then why post  "i don't understand how this limits everyone living in the mountainous areas, please explain?" ?

Yes but the new rule comes into force in the EU on January 1st 2024 EU fliers in mountaious areas will, most likely, be needing lubricant.

never mind, have a good day guys!  

Bashy Posted at 10-12 05:56
Using common sense, it dictates that going up a hill and hitting a 120m height restriction also stops you going forward, does it not? As per Seans drawing.... granted, you could go around the hill at that point but then you shouldn't have to do that because the drone would be on the blooming ground, would it not?

That's not a restriction.  The base of that mountain could be 900m away and according to you, cannot even reach the base because you're restricted to 120m....but you're not.....you can actually reach that base.  Or just fly in a different direction.   Obviously if you are in a hole, the restrictions are geographic based...for everyone.  If you live in an area with high mountains where the base is 900m away, you still live in a mountainous area.  Pretty disingenuous to claim a 120m vertical limit will also limit your horizontal to 120m.  Government is not going to go with that, you'll need a better explanation if you want to stop that law from going into effect.  

BTW, no one in the mountains is having trouble dealing with 500m "horizontal restrictions" today.

The Saint Posted at 10-12 07:08
That's not a restriction.  The base of that mountain could be 900m away and according to you, cannot even reach the base because you're restricted to 120m....but you're not.....you can actually reach that base.  Or just fly in a different direction.   Obviously if you are in a hole, the restrictions are geographic based...for everyone.  If you live in an area with high mountains where the base is 900m away, you still live in a mountainous area.  Pretty disingenuous to claim a 120m vertical limit will also limit your horizontal to 120m.  Government is not going to go with that, you'll need a better explanation if you want to stop that law from going into effect.  

BTW, no one in the mountains is having trouble dealing with 500m "horizontal restrictions" today.

I have given you a perfectly good reason as to why one would be severely restricted and yes, even now one is restricted the exact same way but at 500m, but why are they not moaning about it you asked, well, cause the drone would be way past VLOS and thats the main reason here as to why 120m is severely restrictive, the drone is way under losing VLOS probably around 3x the amount (max).

Its not as simple as flying the other way, especially when one really wants to go uphill for whatever reason, one being the view and many more to boot, I mean, you're hiking in the hills/mountains and you want a nice shot from further up but you find yourself only being able to go 120m further up the hill, that is pants despite what you think.

You say never mind yet you carry on with the same "me no understandy" lark.

You wanted a good reason, I/we gave you a perfectly valid one and you just laugh at it, although, it wouldn't be as funny if it was coming to you guys in the US now would it so on that note, I'm done here.

Bashy Posted at 10-12 20:39
I have given you a perfectly good reason as to why one would be severely restricted and yes, even now one is restricted the exact same way but at 500m, but why are they not moaning about it you asked, well, cause the drone would be way past VLOS and thats the main reason here as to why 120m is severely restrictive, the drone is way under losing VLOS probably around 3x the amount (max).

Its not as simple as flying the other way, especially when one really wants to go uphill for whatever reason, one being the view and many more to boot, I mean, you're hiking in the hills/mountains and you want a nice shot from further up but you find yourself only being able to go 120m further up the hill, that is pants despite what you think.

I'v already said this twice in this thread and several times in other threads:

"get your point, a 120m above take off point hard limit while living in the mountains will be difficult."
"i understand people are afraid of what's coming in the future."

so i'm not laughing at the new silly restriction coming next year, i'm laughing at your twisted logic.

next year, you're claiming this type of flying isn't going to be possible any longer because your drone won't be able to go any further than 120m in the mountains?  c'mon.

The Saint Posted at 10-13 06:46
I'v already said this twice in this thread and several times in other threads:

"get your point, a 120m above take off point hard limit while living in the mountains will be difficult."

Actually, yes thats exactly what im on about, if matey wanted to actually fly to the top of that ridge at the back, it wouldnt be possible if its over 120m from the take of point, but in the eyes of the law, it is allowed as long as you stay below 120m from the ground, my point is not twisted logic, it is very much a reality once DJI enable it again.

aurisoft Posted at 10-12 04:41
Never heard about it. My M4P is in EU and after first update still allows to set 500m.

Yes, but the 120m will come back soon .  But with it there will be tones of hacks online to use the drone still at 120 AGL in the mountains
It's a shame and an absolute noses that the EU drone law doesn't make a difference between pilots with and without a drone license with CO drones. It makes no sense that I can fly a bigger drone higher in the mountains than a smaller drone. Especially in the mountains, I want to take a small drone with me. The law should adopted as fast as possible!

Hmm that's bad only 120m. I live in Cyprus in a small village and mountains around so I will not be able to fly as I want . Perhaps if I will order from amazon USA I will not have this limitation on mini4?

christis1975 Posted at 10-24 09:01
Hmm that's bad only 120m. I live in Cyprus in a small village and mountains around so I will not be able to fly as I want . Perhaps if I will order from amazon USA I will not have this limitation on mini4?

Ordering a drone from outside Europe will not 'cure' the 'problem' since the restriction is based on the location where the drone is flown.

I've seen a lot of posts about this but I'm still not clear on something, if anyone can confirm.
This change is based on an EU law. So will this (firmware) restriction only apply to drones in EU countries?
As in here in the UK (no longer in the EU) can I still go by the 120m AGL law and not be restricted to 120m from launch alt by this firmware update?

Sam654 Posted at 10-24 11:55
I've seen a lot of posts about this but I'm still not clear on something, if anyone can confirm.
This change is based on an EU law. So will this (firmware) restriction only apply to drones in EU countries?
As in here in the UK (no longer in the EU) can I still go by the 120m AGL law and not be restricted to 120m from launch alt by this firmware update?

Although us Brits are no longer part of the EU, regrettably the CAA still seems to be aligning itself to the EU when it comes to drone laws.  So I think we have to assume that the 120m altitude restriction that comes into force in January 2024 will be enforced in BOTH the EU and UK.  Also, don't forget that DJI has stated that this limit will be applied to all the drones in the Mini Series - so the Mavic Mini, and Mini 2/3/4.  DJI has also stated in a post somewhere on this Forum that it will retrospectively apply C0 category to all drones in the Mini Series and the process for doing that will be communicated in due course.
In terms of the issue of 120m above launch position versus 120m AGL, as you are aware your drone must never be more than 120m from the closest pont of the earth's surface. Its the same for the EU.  So in theory you could fly your drone up a hill and provided it is always 120m AGL you wont be breaking the law.  However...without sounding patronising, the problem is that the drone doesn't have the means to measure height AGL with the exception of the take off position. Accordingly, when the firmware is updated yet again we will be restricted to 120m from the take off position.  Maybe in the future technology will be smart enough for the drone/RC to analyse topography data at your location so that it can actually calculate the drone's height AGL and fly up a hill or mountain side.   

I flew the Dji Mini 4 Pro to 10,000 Feet above ground! Watch the video here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLdIjsThZUY&t=56s

DJI Paladin Posted at 9-26 22:05
Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. Yes, we can set the maximum altitude of the DJI Mini 4 Pro to 500m under the DJI Fly app > Safety > Flight Protection when flying your drone in the UK. You may also want to check the Optimal Transmission Zone under the DJI Mini 4 Pro user manual Page 81 to have a better signal when flying. Thank you for your valued support.

https://dl.djicdn.com/downloads/DJI_Mini_4_Pro/DJI_Mini_4_Pro_User_Manual_EN.pdf

Would this work in usa as well?

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-7 11:54
Would this work in usa as well?

Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. Yes, this is applicable in the US as well. Should you have other inquiries, feel free to contact us. Thank you.

DJI Paladin Posted at 11-9 22:29
Hi there. Thank you for reaching out. Yes, this is applicable in the US as well. Should you have other inquiries, feel free to contact us. Thank you.

Where I live in usa (Arizona), there are a few canyons and one near where I live has an 800 ft drop (or 243.84 meters).  
Would I be able to fly the M4P into the canyon with the current restriction of 120m?  If not, what would happen if I took it over the ledge, would it just drop until the 120m limit is reached from canyon botom & all is lost or wouldit know that this isn't normal ground level?  There is no way to get to bottom of canyon to retrieve the drone, if a height restriction is exceeded & it just drops to 120m from bottom of canyon height.

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-10 03:37
Where I live in usa (Arizona), there are a few canyons and one near where I live has an 800 ft drop (or 243.84 meters).  
Would I be able to fly the M4P into the canyon with the current restriction of 120m?  If not, what would happen if I took it over the ledge, would it just drop until the 120m limit is reached from canyon botom & all is lost or wouldit know that this isn't normal ground level?  There is no way to get to bottom of canyon to retrieve the drone, if a height restriction is exceeded & it just drops to 120m from bottom of canyon height.

The 120m restriction being discussed relates to the EU only, the firmware does not apply it outside the EU i.e. it is not applicable in the USA.

Besides the restriction relates to the height of the drone relative to and ABOVE the take off point not below the take off point.

The direct answer to your question is :-
Yes, you would be able to descend to more than -120m, in fact you could descend to the floor of the canyon if you wanted to.

However, be aware that there are risks involved in descending DEEP into a canyon.
If the canyon is narrow then the drone may lose GPS and if it is high enough above the floor of the canyon to be outside the range of the VPS sensors then it may switch to ATTI mode, in which there is no automated position holding and you are responsible for controlling its horizontal position i.e. it will not automatically fight wind.
If it descends low enough for the VPS to detect the ground and has no GPS then it may be unable to climb out of the canyon due to software restrictions.

Additionally, people/drones have encountered strong winds in canyons so be careful.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 11-10 06:26
The 120m restriction being discussed relates to the EU only, the firmware does not apply it outside the EU i.e. it is not applicable in the USA.

Besides the restriction relates to the height of the drone relative to and ABOVE the take off point not below the take off point.

What is considered narrow for gps?  The canyon I'm speaking of varies at about 500-800 ft wide.

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-10 06:51
What is considered narrow for gps?  The canyon I'm speaking of varies at about 500-800 ft wide.

That I do not know, sorry. Just descend slowly and watch the satellite count.

In usa, it's 4000m (or 13,123 ft) with normal battery/3000m (9,843 ft) with battery plus

The Saint Posted at 10-12 05:53
already knew that.  i understand people are afraid of what's coming in the future.

as of right now, today, all is well, correct?

There is a height restriction in usa of 400 ft, or just more than 120m but it's not firmwared into the Unit

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-11 14:07
There is a height restriction in usa of 400 ft, or just more than 120m but it's not firmwared into the Unit

because with the current drones, it is impossible to restrict the drone to 400 feet above the ground using the firmware.

Just so we are clear, there is a height restriction in the USA of 400 feet above the ground, not 400 feet above the take off point and not 400 feet in altitude.

Also in America, we have a thing called Freedom.  DJI recognizes that and leaves it up to the people not the government.

The Saint Posted at 11-11 15:31
because with the current drones, it is impossible to restrict the drone to 400 feet above the ground using the firmware.

Just so we are clear, there is a height restriction in the USA of 400 feet above the ground, not 400 feet above the take off point and not 400 feet in altitude.

I've never heard of freedom unit before.  I used to fly small aircraft a few years back & there was no such thing.  When did this come out?So, above ground is, say, you took off at base of mountain (take off point) and flew up to peak of mountain of say 7,000 feet, the 7,000 ft from take off would then be "above ground" point?

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-11 18:44
I've never heard of freedom unit before.  I used to fly small aircraft a few years back & there was no such thing.  When did this come out?So, above ground is, say, you took off at base of mountain (take off point) and flew up to peak of mountain of say 7,000 feet, the 7,000 ft from take off would then be "above ground" point?

Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL.  Yes you are 7,002 feet above take off point but that's not relevant for US law.  Yes, it would be legal to fly from the bottom all the way up to the top of a 7,000 foot mountain with your capable drone as long as you never flew higher than 400 feet above the ground just below the drone.

Not surprised you have never heard of Freedom, many Americans don't know what it is or don't know anything about it; doesn't ring a bell.  Shame.  

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-11 14:06
In usa, it's 4000m (or 13,123 ft) with normal battery/3000m (9,843 ft) with battery plus

That is not a hard ceiling, it is the probable height above sea level ceiling, above which the drone may not be able to fly because the air is too thin. It is also applicable world wide.

The Saint Posted at 11-11 20:31
Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL.  Yes you are 7,002 feet above take off point but that's not relevant for US law.  Yes, it would be legal to fly from the bottom all the way up to the top of a 7,000 foot mountain with your capable drone as long as you never flew higher than 400 feet above the ground just below the drone.

Not surprised you have never heard of Freedom, many Americans don't know what it is or don't know anything about it; doesn't ring a bell.  Shame.

Ouch. That’s got to hurt sad truth

The Saint Posted at 11-11 20:31
Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL.  Yes you are 7,002 feet above take off point but that's not relevant for US law.  Yes, it would be legal to fly from the bottom all the way up to the top of a 7,000 foot mountain with your capable drone as long as you never flew higher than 400 feet above the ground just below the drone.

Not surprised you have never heard of Freedom, many Americans don't know what it is or don't know anything about it; doesn't ring a bell.  Shame.

"Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL."


For flying in the USA that is flawed thinking, the reference to the "nearest" ground is NOT applicable, the USA is 'strictly' "above the ground directly beneath the drone".  
"nearest" was/is applicable in the EU and perhaps the UK.

As extreme examples and ignoring that flying at the sites is not permitted, if you launched from
a) the top of El Capitan then flew out, over the drop off, and descend until you were a few feet below the launch point but 2ft out from the cliff face you would be illegal because the drone is more than 400ft AGL.
b) at the Cliffs of Moher in the Irish Republic,  you could repeat the previous flight path and be legal since the nearest ground permutation applies.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 11-11 21:38
"Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL."

yeah sure, i just said both "ground nearest and directly below you" because in 99% of the instances, not going to be much difference.  in reality, if someone is flying up to the cliff wall, they will probably do it  laterally (not horizontally or vertically) and who could blame them, it just doesn't happen that way in real life.  so, just explaining it so poster could get the general idea.  in mexico, you find your way up the top of that mountain whichever way is quickest.  ;)

The Saint Posted at 11-11 22:26
yeah sure, i just said both "ground nearest and directly below you" because in 99% of the instances, not going to be much difference.  in reality, if someone is flying up to the cliff wall, they will probably do it  laterally (not horizontally or vertically) and who could blame them, it just doesn't happen that way in real life.  so, just explaining it so poster could get the general idea.  in mexico, you find your way up the top of that mountain whichever way is quickest.  ;)

Not being cantankerous, but referring to "ground nearest" in an American context was not necessary, since it is irrelevant, and and could lead to confusion for new American pilots.
As things already stand people get confused as to meaning of the existing names for heights and their relevance.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 11-11 21:22
That is not a hard ceiling, it is the probable height above sea level ceiling, above which the drone may not be able to fly because the air is too thin. It is also applicable world wide.

I'm at 5,600 above sea level so i still have plenty altitude.

The Saint Posted at 11-11 20:31
Above ground means the distance from your drone to the ground nearest and directly below you.  If you are about 2 feet away from the peak of that 7,000 foot mountain then you would be hovering at 2 ft AGL.  Yes you are 7,002 feet above take off point but that's not relevant for US law.  Yes, it would be legal to fly from the bottom all the way up to the top of a 7,000 foot mountain with your capable drone as long as you never flew higher than 400 feet above the ground just below the drone.

Not surprised you have never heard of Freedom, many Americans don't know what it is or don't know anything about it; doesn't ring a bell.  Shame.

I guess usa is in a bubble when it comes to some things.

djiuser_d3Bi7bZgYQga Posted at 11-10 03:37
Where I live in usa (Arizona), there are a few canyons and one near where I live has an 800 ft drop (or 243.84 meters).  
Would I be able to fly the M4P into the canyon with the current restriction of 120m?  If not, what would happen if I took it over the ledge, would it just drop until the 120m limit is reached from canyon botom & all is lost or wouldit know that this isn't normal ground level?  There is no way to get to bottom of canyon to retrieve the drone, if a height restriction is exceeded & it just drops to 120m from bottom of canyon height.

Hi there. Sorry for the confusion. I thought you were referring to the antenna orientation of the remote controller when flying the aircraft. To confirm. the said rules are only applicable in the EU as mentioned also by Sean above. Thank you for your understanding.

I have a quick question, asking for a friend with a Mini 4 Pro who lives in Northern Ireland.... Does anyone know if the 120m limit applies to the whole island of Ireland, or is it a max of 500 metres in the north and 120 metres in Eire?

By the way, I live in France and have made the request to DJI to set my Mini 4 Pro to a max of 500 metres as I live 2 hours from the Pyrenees and have a son who lives in the Alps :-)

120m = Eire only. UK = 500m but I think you would struggle to legally use the 500m ceiling in the North, I think you'd be well beyond the range of your eye sight to be anywhere that was 380m higher than the take off. Even at Fair Head, a sea cliff that tops out at 600ft or so above sea level, a mini would probably be invisible from the shore by the time it got to 600ft.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 11-13 09:28
120m = Eire only. UK = 500m but I think you would struggle to legally use the 500m ceiling in the North, I think you'd be well beyond the range of your eye sight to be anywhere that was 380m higher than the take off. Even at Fair Head, a sea cliff that tops out at 600ft or so above sea level, a mini would probably be invisible from the shore by the time it got to 600ft.

Thanks, Sean

Despite everyone’s best efforts, I still have doubts.   Can you clarify whether the Reference System for the 120m Limit is Above Ground Level, or Above Launch Point ?   Someone stated that the drone is incapable of determining AGL, so above Launch Point applied.  This point was not clarified and the discussion went on, often with confusing interchange of the terms.

Also, the 120m Limit may be restricted to the EU, but the Reference System is most likely the same in both territories, because it is a technical parameter of the device.  Can you also clarify?

Tom Dick Harry Posted at 12-9 15:54
Despite everyone’s best efforts, I still have doubts.   Can you clarify whether the Reference System for the 120m Limit is Above Ground Level, or Above Launch Point ?   Someone stated that the drone is incapable of determining AGL, so above Launch Point applied.  This point was not clarified and the discussion went on, often with confusing interchange of the terms.

Also, the 120m Limit may be restricted to the EU, but the Reference System is most likely the same in both territories, because it is a technical parameter of the device.  Can you also clarify?

The definitive answer is that no matter where you fly around the world, the only reference point your drone has for altitude is from the take off position. That is because the drone does not have an altimeter.  Your drone uses GPS data to determine altitude from the take off position.  So the 120m limit used by the drone is from the take off position.

The confusion arises because some countries and regions set the maximum altitude you can fly (120m) with reference to height ‘above ground level’ (AGL).  If you fly your drone vertically from your take off position, then altitude ‘above ground level’ and altitude from take off position should coincide. But let’s say you now fly your drone up a hill or mountain slope. You might be flying legally 120m AGL, but with reference to height above take off position you could be at 200 or 300m (and you would need to adjust your max height on the RC which at the moment is to a maximum of 500m above take off position). But I would argue height restrictions should only be in relation to take off position because it’s impossible for the human eye to ‘judge’ the height of a drone above ground level

Steph Jant Posted at 12-9 22:49
The definitive answer is that no matter where you fly around the world, the only reference point your drone has for altitude is from the take off position. That is because the drone does not have an altimeter.  Your drone uses GPS data to determine altitude from the take off position.  So the 120m limit used by the drone is from the take off position.

The confusion arises because some countries and regions set the maximum altitude you can fly (120m) with reference to height ‘above ground level’ (AGL).  If you fly your drone vertically from your take off position, then altitude ‘above ground level’ and altitude from take off position should coincide. But let’s say you now fly your drone up a hill or mountain slope. You might be flying legally 120m AGL, but with reference to height above take off position you could be at 200 or 300m (and you would need to adjust your max height on the RC which at the moment is to a maximum of 500m above take off position). But I would argue height restrictions should only be in relation to take off position because it’s impossible for the human eye to ‘judge’ the height of a drone above ground level

"Your drone uses GPS data to determine altitude from the take off position. "

That is incorrect, the drone uses a barometer to determine its height.  E.g. if GPS were the source then indoor flights would not register changes in height.

But as you say the height, as measured by and displayed by the drone, is relative to the take off point.

I would also point out that under EU law I believe the legal 'height' limit is "within 120m of the closest ground" and not AGL.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 12-9 23:32
"Your drone uses GPS data to determine altitude from the take off position. "

That is incorrect, the drone uses a barometer to determine its height.  E.g. if GPS were the source then indoor flights would not register changes in height.

I would love to be proved wrong, but I don't beleive you are right about the drone having a pressure guage.  If you are right then we have all been having a nebulus conversation for the last few months with regards to height other than that above take off position.  I also don't understand why you are trying to split hairs over AGL versus within (120m) of closest ground.  Its one and the same thing.  And even the EU diagram you included in your post references AGL