rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-26 10:57
And you know all These  statistics, how?

Anyone that reads forums enough can tell that accidental CSC is very, very rarely reported.
Bad compass, calibration, flying behind buildings, flying far away downwind, crashing into trees and buildings etc, etc are reported every day but accidental CSC turns up only every couple of months.

Anyone with a tiny bit of experience flying these things realises that it isn't something that would ever happen in normal flight and you would have to be jerking the joysticks like a monkey on meth to "accidentally" CSC and it hat case, the monkey is going to crash soon enough anyway even if not by CSC.

Perhaps you'd be more convinced by the comments of someone from DJI on the topic:
http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... 25&page=5#pid343048
http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... 25&page=5#pid343153

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-26 09:07
Anyone that reads forums enough can tell that accidental CSC is very, very rarely reported.
Bad com ...

We are going to agree to disagree.
To put csc using flight controls, in my opinion,  is an absolutely dumb engineering design. The new CSC on p4 is a much better, safer and thoughtful way.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-25 23:33
Not at all - It happens so rarely there are hardly any incidents at all.
DJI was responding to the ...

Labroides, you're obviously fine with it, so good for you.  But it happens enough to have it mentioned in the 'Top Ten Pilot Errors' video.
When drones are heading towards trees or something is going wrong, people sometimes panic and do strange things with their joysticks.
The bottom line is that people can and do accidentally initiate a CSC when there are plenty of other button combinations that would make it impossible to accidentally initiate.
We now have different CSC controls across different models, making it even more daft.  If you can configure which way round your joysticks work, you should be able to configure how you implement a CSC....

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-25 18:07
Anyone that reads forums enough can tell that accidental CSC is very, very rarely reported.
Bad com ...

I totally agree with the monkey on meth comment... CSC in flight should never happen....not even close!   DJI shouldn't be expected to make these things totally idiot proof.   If someone is inexperienced and panics, causing a CSC crash, that is not DJI's fault.

hefnerjim Posted at 2016-4-26 14:44
I totally agree with the monkey on meth comment... CSC in flight should never happen....not even c ...

Ok master pilot, nobody said it is dji's fault. But not every person using the p3 is a master pilot such as yourself and therefore improving the CSC so that inadvertent shutdown would be nearly impossible is not a bad idea and that's is the precise reason DJI changed it for the p4 as they went by the numbers of inadvertent shutdowns from the p3, otherwise they would not have changed the CSC method. The p4 is basically out a short few weeks and the CSC had already been changed during the engineering phase, why do you think they decided to change CSC??
Dji is trying to make these birds as safe as they can and therefore accidental shutdowns from a 300' height is pretty dangerous and considering that the majority of users are not master pilots........

hefnerjim Posted at 2016-4-25 09:28
I prefer the way the P3's work now, since I catch mine instead of landing here in the desert.  With  ...

CSC  is not for normal shutdown of motors!!! It is only to be used in dire situations and therefore it would not make any difference to shutting motors off in normal situations, whether hand catching or Lansing.

wellsi Posted at 2016-4-26 15:41
Labroides, you're obviously fine with it, so good for you.  But it happens enough to have it menti ...

"But it happens enough to have it mentioned in the 'Top Ten Pilot Errors' video."
So may people get taken in by that.
It doesn't happen often enough to make any genuine Top 10 list of causes of crashes.
DJI really came up with a beauty there making people believe that one of the rarest causes of crashes is the most common.
Check the links in post #41 above.
How many accidental CSC reports have you seen lately?

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-26 17:31
Ok master pilot, nobody said it is dji's fault. But not every person using the p3 is a master pilo ...

"the precise reason DJI changed it for the p4 as they went by the numbers of inadvertent shutdowns from the p3"
So how many accidental CSC incidents have been happening?
Do you have anything to support your claim that there are quite a few?

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-26 17:00
"the precise reason DJI changed it for the p4 as they went by the numbers of inadvertent shutdowns ...

Enough accidental CSC, to make DJI rethink and change it,
No I don't, just as you don't for any thing you say about CSC accidental crash numbers.
Anyways, explain why you are so against the CSC change?

jyurkyandsons Posted at 2016-4-25 17:17
Do your saying it's built into the barometer at what height does it know your stable , example you ...

The bird will start to drop because you pulled the stick back and the motors will not stop as it is decending.

Odds are no changes will ever be made to the Phantom 3 line in regards to the CSC since it is mostly human error and inexperience that results in this.
The fact remains that CSC is a good thing, but also mostly used by hand catching and emergency situations such as stuck in a tree or about to hit into people/things.
Pilot error was enough to have DJI change it for new owners purchasing the Phantom 4, but very doubtful it has made enough concern for the Phantom 3.
I disabled it myself, but highly doubt DJI will follow suit as it really boils down to user experience and knowledge causing CSC crashes.

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-27 01:11
Enough accidental CSC, to make DJI rethink and change it,
No I don't, just as you don't for any th ...

Did you even read my post #41 above?

"Anyways, explain why you are so against the CSC change?"
You could sum it up with .. if it ain't broke, there's nothing to fix.
The whole case for, is based on the false premise that it's a problem.

They only changed it because its really exhausting to get every single newbie on this forum start their own "OMGESH!!! CHANGE THE CSC BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL DIE IN FIRE!!!!" thread.
And more so, everyone claims the stupid DJI video as their only proof, despite having only 1 CSC incident in the last 6 months (the guy spinning around in IOC mode, remember?).
No, you don't need to be an expert pilot to avoid CSC, just read the manual and don't do stupid things.
If you're about to crash with something and panic, the best would be an accidental CSC instead of crashing someone else's car or window.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-26 23:46
Did you even read my post #41 above?

"Anyways, explain why you are so against the CSC change?"

Yes I did read your post.
You must stop looking at the picture through your own piloting skills or common sense.
. There are tons of people that buy phantoms without any piloting skills, common sense or not even how to read a manual skill!!
So with that in mind to make accidental CSC, whether done by monkeys on crack or otherwise, more difficult to do would not be a bad thing

LordNeo Posted at 2016-4-26 23:59
They only changed it because its really exhausting to get every single newbie on this forum start th ...

I agree with the fact that accidental CSC it's done because of not reading manual.
Now as to do a CSC so it doesn't crash into somebody or something, it is quite possible that an accidental CSC would cause allot more damage!!!

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-26 12:11
I agree with the fact that accidental CSC it's done because of not reading manual.
Now as to do a  ...

Even without reading the manual, not doing stupid things is enought to not do CSC procedure "casually".
Falling flat to the ground and losing "just your drone" is less damage than crashing on a 20th floor window, crashing into a parachute or hitting a small plane.
If you are really that bad flying and yet, so reckless to do an "accidental CSC" probably it's a good idea to crash your drone into the ground before anyone else ends up with serious damage.

LordNeo Posted at 2016-4-27 00:26
Even without reading the manual, not doing stupid things is enought to not do CSC procedure "casua ...

You are blinded by your ego, it's not about you or me. What may seem stupid to you may not be to someone else.if it falls from 100 feet on some poor bystander because of accidental CSC then what?
Saying well he is just dumb and shouldn't own a drone will not change the fact that some poor bystander got hurt.
McDonald's got sued for giving a hot coffee to someone who decided to drive while holding it between her legs, was she too stupid to have coffee? Absolutely, but the end result is  that there are silly people around that we need to be protected from. So if by securing CSC we can eliminate a percentage of accidents, then im all for it. You need to forget your own prowess and knowledge and look at the bigger picture. Or tell me the downside of changing CSC to a more secure way?

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-26 00:31
Ok master pilot, nobody said it is dji's fault. But not every person using the p3 is a master pilo ...

I suspect DJI changed the P4 CSC because they got tired of reading senseless emotional threads like this one with very little data to support the claims....  85% of general aviation accidents are caused by pilot error.  The fix there is more training, not changing how airplanes are flown and it wouldn't hurt for people to be more responsible and get training or teach themselves to fly quadcopters far from where anything or anyone can get hurt before flying them around people, where they could hurt someone.  With any amount of experience, accidental CSC's won't happen.  Nothing will prevent someone from pulling the left stick back trying to regain control and pushing Go Home if they are out of control and panic.  Hopefully DJI can sort out the real issues in all the noise.     

hefnerjim Posted at 2016-4-26 14:04
I suspect DJI changed the P4 CSC because they got tired of reading senseless emotional threads lik ...

Pretty much exactly this. Every few days this goddamn topic comes up again, and it goes like this:

- People who haven't used RC aircraft before: "OMG, the CSC is totally the worst! You will accidentally trigger it!"

- People with more experience respond: "Actually no, CSCs have been used in the industry for far longer than you have probably even been aware of flying RC units."

- "But it's so easy to execute!"

- "You can't do the CSC in any kind of normal flight."

- "BUT YOU MIGHT OMG!!!!!"

And on and on, until the worried people reach a fever pitch. So yes, if I were DJI, I'd implement it just to shut people the hell up.

But now that it's on the P4 but not the P3, this little exchange has now expanded into:

- New people: "OMG put the new CSC on the P3s please!!!!!"

- Rationale people: "No, please don't, DJI docs are bad enough, and now you have multiple CSCs on different units; adding the CSC to long-existing units will make it even more confusing."

- New people: "OMG I DON'T CARE I WANT IT ON!"

And to shut you up, DJI will probably consider implementing in a future firmware, but not document it (because the docs are terrible) and then you have a badly documented button sequence that may or may not work depending on firmware version, and that's even worse than the situation we have now.

hefnerjim Posted at 2016-4-27 03:04
I suspect DJI changed the P4 CSC because they got tired of reading senseless emotional threads lik ...

Absolutely correct, DJI changed the CSC because of accidents. Therefore there it's nothing wrong with making a system better!!
No airplane has CSC using flight controls!!!

lido_bmt Posted at 2016-4-26 12:13
Pretty much exactly this. Every few days this goddamn topic comes up again, and it goes like this: ...

Sorry to be the new guy stirring this up again.. I didn't understand what the CSC scenario was people were complaining about.... and now I do.  I did learn one useful thing early on.... full left stick down won't shut off the motors until 3 sec after altitude stops changing... good to know... by the time I walk around the drone to take hold of it, more than 3 secs has elapsed in hover, so when I pull full back left stick it stops the motors immediately and now I understand why.  I also learned that I can ignore any further threads about CSC complaints.... also good to know....      

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-27 03:14
Absolutely correct, DJI changed the CSC because of accidents. Therefore there it's nothing wrong w ...

No, but plenty of RC aircraft have had CSC controls since the birth of RC aircraft.

lido_bmt Posted at 2016-4-26 16:57
No, but plenty of RC aircraft have had CSC controls since the birth of RC aircraft.

Yes they do and I agree that they should, just not using the flight control sticks, which is what DJI had opted for in the p4.

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-27 04:24
You are blinded by your ego, it's not about you or me. What may seem stupid to you may not be to so ...

"McDonald's got sued for giving a hot coffee to someone who decided to drive while holding it between her legs, was she too stupid to have coffee? "
Fact Check Time
She wasn't driving and the case wasn't about that at all.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-27 05:14
Absolutely correct, DJI changed the CSC because of accidents. Therefore there it's nothing wrong w ...

You've missed the important detail completely.
You've guessed that there are lots of accidental CSC incidents.
You can't point to these accidents because they aren't happening.

DJI did not repond to accidents (if they did, don't you think they would have done something about the P3 series too?
DJI responded to the incessant emotional, completely non-fact-based ranting just as Lido explained above.

And, I would love someone to explain why the new procedure of left stick down and in while holding the RTH button is any saner, safer or less likely to occur accidentally? I bet that when someone does perform a CSC 'accidentally', it is because they are control mashing, and that will happen to the P4 just as easily.

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-26 15:24
You are blinded by your ego, it's not about you or me. What may seem stupid to you may not be to so ...

We could also fly without props! That would be completly safe and noone would get hurt!
Changing the CSC is alike to change the Mayday or SOS sign. It's a standard, must be easy to perform and must happen inmediatly.
With that same mentality, we should change SOS to something longer and ". - ." because someone with toying with a morse transmitter could send a fake SOS alarm and mobilize the rescue teams.
A drone is not a toy, so don't try to numb it down to one. As much as a bike, a boat or a car, you are REQUIRED some skills to use it properly. If you can't or just don't want to then yes, you will hurt people, sooner or later.

BTW, it's not a matter of ego or flying skills, but having a standard that's easy to perform yet hard to do in normal flight.
You are trying to defend the reckless flyer in despise of the real usecase.
The last time i had to use CSC was to avoid killing someone by crashing into his parachute. That's what CSC is for, and the fast reaction was there because it's a adquired reflex from having the same consistent procedure from old phantom versions.

About crashing into a bystander, what about flying straigth into his face?

rayrokni Posted at 2016-4-27 05:55
Yes they do and I agree that they should, just not using the flight control sticks, which is what  ...

Actually, numerous RC aircraft in the past used similar dual stick CSC actions to engage and disengage functions. Again, this is nothing new and nothing that DJI came up with without precedence.

LordNeo Posted at 2016-4-27 09:48
We could also fly without props! That would be completly safe and noone would get hurt!
Changing t ...

So much this. If there is a good reason to change something, by all means, it should be. However this time the new engine cutoff was introduced because a small group of people had theoretical fears about a stick maneuver that no responsible person would ever execute and clamored hysterically about it until they were appeased. Frankly it's tyrannical and born of a severe lack of understanding of both RC aircraft and direct experience with any Phantom.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-27 08:04
You've missed the important detail completely.
You've guessed that there are lots of accidental CS ...

I suppose the bottom line on the CSC argument is that We all have different opinions. Mine it's that the CSC method could be improved upon regardless of any accident numbers. Yours, is that the existing method is fine and doesn't need improvement.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-24 22:41
"I would imagine dji changed the combination in order to stop all the numerous inadvertent CSC!
So ...

It's in Tim's top 10 RMAs so I would imagine there have been several.

I have never crashed due to the old CSC but it constantly nagged at me.  Only now can I think about how my OCD made me think of it. Hell, my OCD sometimes made me want to do it.  "Can you resist the temptation of the SHINY RED BUTTON?!?".

It's a smart change and even though everyone and their brother complained about it, I wrote a couple letters to Shenzen laying out the logic and using their own RMA to show that maybe a change is in order.  By the way, to the person above, you can still start and stop the motors on the ground with the inverted method, also if you catch it and you are pressing down, the bird will realize it has come to a stop and shut the motors down just like you landed so I'm not getting the problem.

I am catching mine as easy as ever.

ArtistFirst Posted at 2016-4-28 19:59
It's in Tim's top 10 RMAs so I would imagine there have been several.

I have never crashed due to ...

Yes, everyone imagines it because of that ridiculous Top 10 listing.
And it's all imaginary, there just isn't any evidence to back it up.
What evidence there is, strongly indicates it is not a problem as backed up by DJI-Ken's comments quoted above.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-28 18:27
Yes, everyone imagines it because of that ridiculous Top 10 listing.
And it's all imaginary, there ...

You must be pretty high up at DJI to de-value Tim, one of their techs I believe, list.

Ken's comments in this thread were completely benign and had nothing to do with anything you're on about.

Unless you are someone I don't know, I must reiterate how amazed I am that you are just saying Tim's list is completely bogus when he took the time to write the article and post it for people's benefit.

Also, you are in the minority on this one making your opinion while fine, invalid.  DJI is in the business in making the masses happy, not the minority.

And for the record, the desire for some to get rid of the stick CSC was a very vocal group, not one or two people and it certainly did not begin with Tim's list although the fact that it was listed in their top 10 RMAs from his "rediculous top 10 listing" certainy stirred up the people that wanted it gone.

Why is it in the land of drones, everyone is so often upset.  Lol.  They changed the CSC to the delight of many and to the dismay of a few (and I am not sure what they are upset about).  You can still use the CSC just not to drop the bird.

ArtistFirst Posted at 2016-4-28 20:33
You must be pretty high up at DJI to de-value Tim, one of their techs I believe, list.

Ken's comme ...

I got tired of explaining this ages ago and one or two posts is as much as I want to go over this.
There have been a thousand posts from nervous owners complaining and everything that could possibly be said has been said many times over.
I explained back in post #41 above all that needs saying to explain why the whole emotional anti-CSC campaign isn't evidence based and is invalid.
Lido in post #59 above eloquently added some great points.

I don't care who at DJI wrote the Top-10 list because there is no evidence at all to back it up.
Whoever it is was wrong (like a lot of misinformation provided by some DJI people on this forum)
The much complained about accidental CSCs just aren't happening.
And for all the bleating that goes on, the bleaters can never point to more than a very small number of incidents and almost always from someone who never read the manual and would have crashed one way or another if they didn't CSC.
Over and Out

hefnerjim Posted at 2016-4-26 21:22
Sorry to be the new guy stirring this up again.. I didn't understand what the CSC scenario was peo ...

You still haven't fully understood.  If the aircraft is hovering for 3 seconds & you pull the left stick fully down, it will not shut down the motors.  The aircraft will descend at it's maximum descent rate until it reaches something that will stop it descending further (usually the ground), at which point, you need to hold the stick down for a further 3 seconds.

You need to hold the left stick fully down for 3 seconds while the aircraft cannot descend any further before it will shut down the motors.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-4-28 03:57
I got tired of explaining this ages ago and one or two posts is as much as I want to go over this.
...

So friggen redic!!!

Are you seriously saying that Tim is wrong and you are right because you think so?

I don't care how many times you posted it, it's insane what you are writing and it also doesn't matter as DJI has 2 goals as a company with a desire to make money. 1) make a working product that 2) makes the most people happy.

Do you guys pull the left stick down all the way when descending? I never do, or do not think I do! I always prefer a well controlled rate of descent, and working with other RC aircraft, I am just not used to holding that stick full down (or full up) unless there's a specific reason, of which I have not come across quite yet....
I am looking forward to the "kill" command to change on p# too.. It is not likely.. but getting the sticks into insight bottom corner IS possible, even though rare....
GT

ArtistFirst Posted at 2016-4-29 11:23
So friggen redic!!!

Are you seriously saying that Tim is wrong and you are right because you thin ...

Yes .. I am seriously saying that DJI-Tim is completely wrong and if he thinks that accidental CSC is even bottom of the top 10 list of causes of crashes that he hasn't a clue.
I say that because no-one can point to anything more than a few rather rare incidents.
And that's because it just isn't happening like the alarmist myth that the very misleading top ten list has perpetuated.

gtokarsk Posted at 2016-4-29 11:40
Do you guys pull the left stick down all the way when descending? I never do, or do not think I do!  ...

You can quite safely descend with full left stick down (if you don't lumber your Phantom with propguards).
DJI engineers have designed to Phantom and limited the descent speed for you already so you won't get into trouble.
There's no need for you to restrict it even further.

New pilots can panic and create control combinations that wouldn't happen in normal flight.
Kids like to fly the drone and I'm OK with that if it's at a safe altitude.  But who knows what they might try with the controls?

The "new" shutdown scheme isn't necessarily better.  In a perceived flyaway scenario a panicked pilot might try to initiate RTH without releasing the left stick.

Ideally, I think I would like to see a dedicated switch with a switch guard.