DocDNA Posted at 2017-6-21 04:33
Just to give everyone an update... as the experienced people here seem to agree that my battery should not have exhibited the sudden drop in power, I've put in another support request with DJI.

My expectations for resolution in my favor are not high, but maybe I'll find someone who's willing to look at the RC BlackBox data. I think it does provide pretty strong support for a battery failure vs pilot error / crash / etc.

The evidence you can provide from the RC log is that the "Battery % Remaining" readout drops precipitously.  The route to determining that the sudden drop was due to battery failure might lie in the algorithm used to determine "Battery % Remaining" - specifically if the algorithm relies on individual cell voltages and currents (internal R).  Surely DJI engineers could help - if they were so inclined.  Others "listening" to the discussion, please chime in if you can offer any clues.

DocDNA, you may try  to seek some comments from BudWalker, who hangs out on the MavicPilots.  Bud is very astute at interpreting the Mavic DAT files and may have some experience with battery issues.

Here's an interesting discussion of DJI Intelligent Batteries:

http://forum.dji.com/thread-38174-1-1.html

You may find interesting the discussion of  Over Discharge Prevention.

BAD LUCK! Did the drone shut off, or it ''landed'' on the water?

Buzz In Calif. Posted at 2017-6-21 05:55
Hi Tom,

Your Perdiction is correct, I read the thread and Doc has assisted in the confrontation by in his own admission of posting  incorrect information (2 DAYS VS 3 DAYS) in my opinion overworking a battery with 17 recharges to a battery in a very short timeframe and further "limited info" along with his negative attitude,

Huh? Where have I posted incorrect information? What's the 2-days vs 3-days thing?

Griffith Posted at 2017-6-21 06:14
The evidence you can provide from the RC log is that the "Battery % Remaining" readout drops precipitously.  The route to determining that the sudden drop was due to battery failure might lie in the algorithm used to determine "Battery % Remaining" - specifically if the algorithm relies on individual cell voltages and currents (internal R).  Surely DJI engineers could help - if they were so inclined.  Others "listening" to the discussion, please chime in if you can offer any clues.

DocDNA, you may try  to seek some comments from BudWalker, who hangs out on the MavicPilots.  Bud is very astute at interpreting the Mavic DAT files and may have some experience with battery issues.

Thanks. Although the root cause analysis would be interesting, I'd mainly like to know if the quick 20% drop is considered to be "in spec" or "out of spec" for a DJI battery. (i.e. is the observed discharge rate what DJI would consider "normal" operation). If it's "in spec", then this whole thread is irrelevant - the battery was operating as designed, and I've got nothing to complain about. If it's out of spec, then the issue becomes more of how DJI responds to an in-warranty product  operating abnormally in regards to the design specification.

Ma(v/g)ic Pro Posted at 2017-6-21 07:19
BAD LUCK! Did the drone shut off, or it ''landed'' on the water?

Yep, it "landed" in the water!

method007 Posted at 2017-6-21 05:54
The word "and" is vital in my posting.  On that same note - what is DJI telling you regarding your battery?

In this case, I'm assuming proving is synonymous with convincing. I don't expect them to replace it without proof. As for the proof, it appears I'm back to square one. The response to my new ticket is that I need to upload my DJI Go logs. It appears that is the standard response to any "lost craft" incident.

Thought I'd check back in.  Geez this thread is getting long!
Super impressed with the big brains in here even though I have no such credentials, but I soaked up ALL of the pertinent info available in this thread as only a qualified layperson could... You certainly did your homework and I in no way would consider you to be telling anything but the truth as nothing you've stated has been unverifiable.  Thank you all participants... This really sucks for you Doc...
I just took a peek at the current warranty info and noticed that there's a change to the wording mentioned previously.  I'm no lawyer but highlighted what I think DJI is focusing on.  Figured I'd post it below since the thread isn't long enough yet.Good luck in your endeavors, I'll be watching!

This policy does not cover the following:
×        Crashes or fire damage caused by non-manufacturing factors, including but not limited to, pilot errors.  
×        Damage caused by unauthorized modification, disassembly, or shell opening not in accordance with official instructions or manuals.
×        Damage caused by improper installation, incorrect use, or operation not in accordance with official instructions or manuals.  
×        Damage caused by a non-authorized service provider.  
×        Damage caused by unauthorized modification of circuits and mismatch or misuse of the battery and charger.  
×        Damage caused by flights which did not follow instruction manual recommendations.  
×        Damage caused by operation in bad weather (i.e. strong winds, rain, sand/dust storms, etc.)  
×        Damage caused by operating the product in an environment with electromagnetic interference (i.e. in mining areas or close to radio transmission towers, high-voltage wires, substations, etc.).  
×        Damage caused by operating the product in an environment suffering from interference from other wireless devices (i.e. transmitter, video-downlink, Wi-Fi signals, etc.).  
×        Damage caused by operating the product at a weight greater than the safe takeoff weight, as specified by instruction manuals.  
×        Damage caused by a forced flight when components have aged or been damaged.
×        Damage caused by reliability or compatibility issues when using unauthorized third-party parts.  
×        Damage caused by operating the unit with a low-charged or defective battery.
×        Uninterrupted or error-free operation of a product.  
×        Loss of, or damage to, your data by a product.  
×        Any software programs, whether provided with the product or installed subsequently.
×        Failure of, or damage caused by, any third party products, including those that DJI may provide or integrate into the DJI product at your request.  
×        Damage resulting from any non-DJI technical or other support, such as assistance with “how-to” questions or inaccurate product set-up and installation.  
×        Products or parts with an altered identification label or from which the identification label has been removed.

Sime Posted at 2017-6-19 13:59
I Agree with DJI, fly at YOUR own risk if you choose to fly 3rd party.

Really?! What if dji go is utter useless an crashes several times per flight on a SUPPORTED Android device???

        Failure of, or damage caused by, any third party products, including those that DJI may provide or integrate into the DJI product at your request.  

Not to get off topic, but in the past DJI has stated that flying w/ 3rd party software such as Litchi  only voids the warranty when it can be shown that the 3rd party software was responsible for an accident.  Accidents caused by DJI equipment malfunction or failure are still covered - if evidence points that way.

aviscomi Posted at 2017-6-20 05:03
I'm a bit perplexed on how the Litchi log(s) would help the OP in a warranty claim.

I'm a bit perplexed on how the Litchi log(s) would help the OP in a warranty claim.

It's been a while since I used Litchi, but I imagine that the Litchi logs capture a transcript of the telemetry stream from the Mavic in addition to RC and Litchi-generated messages and commands.  Very similar (but maybe not identical) to GO.

I'll see if I can find a Litchi log to verify this.

Its a shame but DJI GO App is all you should be using, anything else is 3rd party and I have not used any of those other apps, you don't know how the other apps measure voltage and battery, it might not be accurate... DJI Drones land at 10% automatically, there is nothing you can do about that, so basically you need to think that 10% is actually 0% battery meaning you was flying over water at 10%, not safe ;/ because of this I set a battery warning in the DJI GO app for 20% that way I always have a decient remaining battery incase anything was to go wrong like quick wind gusts meaning I could not get back in time.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-6-20 01:22
There's a lot of speculation based on limited info going on here. This was the 17th charge cycle on the battery, and FWIW, there were other long flights included in those cycles.

Wait a second! You charged your battery 17 times in 2 days???

Litchi use DJI API correct?
If they do then the logs are the same as DJI logs its just a different software used for flying. If you have a log and that log can show hardware error then DJI really have to honour the warranty on hardware. Just my piece towards this. Maybe im wrong

StephenGSY Posted at 2017-6-23 14:14
Litchi use DJI API correct?
If they do then the logs are the same as DJI logs its just a different software used for flying. If you have a log and that log can show hardware error then DJI really have to honour the warranty on hardware. Just my piece towards this. Maybe im wrong

You are a genius. I thought I'd checked before, but your message made me look again, and I just found some log files in the DJI/SDK_Logs directory. There's an encrypted DAT file (not readable in DatCon) and a text file.

The text file has lat/long info in it (not updated too frequently). But I now I can see it went down in about 30 feet of water. I'm tempted to throw on my Scuba gear and see if I can find it. It would probably make my case a little easier if I actually had the thing in my hands!

DocDNA Posted at 2017-6-23 17:32
You are a genius. I thought I'd checked before, but your message made me look again, and I just found some log files in the DJI/SDK_Logs directory. There's an encrypted DAT file (not readable in DatCon) and a text file.

The text file has lat/long info in it (not updated too frequently). But I now I can see it went down in about 30 feet of water. I'm tempted to throw on my Scuba gear and see if I can find it.  It would probably make my case a little easier if I actually had the thing in my hands!

Glad to have been of help.

I cannot believe this has gone on for this long, the short of this is a battery going from 20% to nothing fast and putting the craft down, unfortunately over water...
The more I read posts on here the shocking it gets, I hope you get the support needed.

Well, just to give everyone an update on this. I contacted DJI support again, and explained what happened. They asked the usual questions... what app was I using, what happened, etc. and I sent all the information in. I was told that they had forwarded my case to headquarters for review. I heard nothing for almost three weeks, and just now got a response that I need to send in my DJI Go logs. It can't beleive it took that long, that they obviously didn't even read the responses to the questions that they asked., and are just shooting off the same scripted responses.

This is an incredibly frustrating experience, for what is clearly a hardware failure with my new DJI product. The logs I do have show the position, altitude, airspeed, and just about everything you would need to confirm that I didn't crassh the drone - that it just dropped out of the sky when the battery level suddenly dropped to zero. If that's not a hardware failure, I don't know what is.

I was really hoping I could follow up to this email with a good news story about DJI customer service, but I'm increasingly getting the feeling this is going to drag on forever, with the final resolution being that if you fly using Litchi, and have a malfunction causing you to lose your aircraft, you are out of luck.

I asked dji about this a while back, will litchi invalidate the warranty and they said yes.

In your defence though why open up and api for third parties to dev against if your not going to support the out come.

NE.UK Posted at 2017-8-4 14:51
I asked dji about this a while back, will litchi invalidate the warranty and they said yes.

In your defence though why open up and api for third parties to dev against if your not going to support the out come.

Looks like you're right. I just found this thread with almost the identical situation.

https://phantompilots.com/threads/litchi-autopilot-apps-void-your-warranty.82016/

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-4 12:49
Well, just to give everyone an update on this. I contacted DJI support again, and explained what happened. They asked the usual questions... what app was I using, what happened, etc. and I sent all the information in. I was told that they had forwarded my case to headquarters for review. I heard nothing for almost three weeks, and just now got a response that I need to send in my DJI Go logs. It can't beleive it took that long, that they obviously didn't even read the responses to the questions that they asked., and are just shooting off the same scripted responses.

This is an incredibly frustrating experience, for what is clearly a hardware failure with my new DJI product. The logs I do have show the position, altitude, airspeed, and just about everything you would need to confirm that I didn't crassh the drone - that it just dropped out of the sky when the battery level suddenly dropped to zero. If that's not a hardware failure, I don't know what is.

For clarity here: This was not a DJI hardware malfunction; this was a case of pilot error. You claimed to have spent years flying drones, but don't seem to understand the basic principles of LiPo batteries. You didn't read the manual. You were flying over water with a dangerously low battery. This is text-book, "don't do anything this guy did" stuff, and you're still harping on DJI and blaming them.

I understand the frustration, but do not blame DJI for this. The number one thing that could have avoided this entire situation would have been to read the documentation on both your Mavic and for Litchi.

Why was this thread resurrected from the dead?

NE.UK Posted at 2017-8-4 14:51
I asked dji about this a while back, will litchi invalidate the warranty and they said yes.

In your defence though why open up and api for third parties to dev against if your not going to support the out come.

What? Why would they support a crash or malfunction if some bad third party code killed your quad? It's not their job to support other developers products or mistakes. It's also not their job to determine if the third party code was to blame or not.

ephektz Posted at 2017-8-4 17:00
What? Why would they support a crash or malfunction if some bad third party code killed your quad? It's not their job to support other developers products or mistakes. It's also not their job to determine if the third party code was to blame or not.

Agree, if someones bad code killed the quad then thats fair game to DJI however the drone owner is  claiming the battery failed. Both parties are unable verify this due to the litchi app being used and consequently there being no DJI logs. I'm not sure where this person is located but in the UK for the first 6 months of owning a product the onus is on the retailer/manufacturer  to prove that the fault didn't exist when it was sold. in order to protect themselves DJI shouldn't release a API which doesn't force third party developers to record the relevant logs in order to protect themselves.

NE.UK Posted at 2017-8-5 01:26
Agree, if someones bad code killed the quad then thats fair game to DJI however the drone owner is  claiming the battery failed. Both parties are unable verify this due to the litchi app being used and consequently there being no DJI logs. I'm not sure where this person is located but in the UK for the first 6 months of owning a product the onus is on the retailer/manufacturer  to prove that the fault didn't exist when it was sold. in order to protect themselves DJI shouldn't release a API which doesn't force third party developers to record the relevant logs in order to protect themselves.

Agreed. And in this case I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK. However, it appears DJI has chosen not to implement sufficient logging in the SDK and/or only supports log analysis from DJI go.

In this case, I also think they probably just don't care. They are a big, successfully company and don't have to compete on customer service

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-5 04:05
Agreed. And in this case I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK. However, it appears DJI has chosen not to implement sufficient logging in the SDK and/or only supports log analysis from DJI go.

In this case, I also think they probably just don't care. They are a big, successfully company and don't have to compete on customer service

there seems to be no one governing DJI, I think it will take one consumer to take them court and things will change quickly. The onus is on the manufacturer to prove there were no faults on the drone.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-5 04:05
Agreed. And in this case I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK. However, it appears DJI has chosen not to implement sufficient logging in the SDK and/or only supports log analysis from DJI go.

In this case, I also think they probably just don't care. They are a big, successfully company and don't have to compete on customer service

What? That's not how this works. That's not how logging works. Once again it's a third party code thing. Why are you expecting them to write a log parser for every third party app using their SDK. On that note, it's an SDK not an API. DJI isn't the one implementing logging; the developer of the app is the one who implements logging.

NE.UK Posted at 2017-8-5 05:05
there seems to be no one governing DJI, I think it will take one consumer to take them court and things will change quickly. The onus is on the manufacturer to prove there were no faults on the drone.

That's pretty easy in this case. The pilot, who claimed years of experience, by their own admission didn't land and had no intention of landing at the appropriate battery level.

What's more likely to happen is DJI yanking third party support for their consumer UAV's because of dumb stuff like this, which would be sad.

ephektz Posted at 2017-8-5 09:09
What? That's not how this works. That's not how logging works. Once again it's a third party code thing. Why are you expecting them to write a log parser for every third party app using their SDK. On that note, it's an SDK not an API. DJI isn't the one implementing logging; the developer of the app is the one who implements logging.

Ephutz, if you're going to be so vitriolic, at least be accurate. Logging is part of the core API provided by the SDK. If you'd read the developer manual like you accused me of not doing for the user manual (without evidence BTW) you'd have realized that.

FWIW, here is a link to one of the many logging functions provided by the SDK:

https://developer.dji.com/iframe/mobile-sdk-doc/android/reference/dji/sdk/sdkmanager/DJISDKManager.html#archiveLogs(dji.common.util.DJICommonCallbacks.DJICompletionCallback)

The first few sentences from that section of the doc are quite relevant here:

"The DJI Mobile SDK collects logs that are related to flight. These logs can be used to help diagnose the cause of a product's flight failure at the SDK and mobile application layer. They are predominantly used by a DJI service facility, who will combine them with the product's flight logs (stored on the product) to better understand the root cause of a crash and determine whether the incident is covered under warranty "

These are the logs that I have, and have sent to DJI for analysis.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-5 11:02
Ephutz, if you're going to be so vitriolic, at least be accurate. Logging is part of the core API provided by the SDK. If you'd read the developer manual like you accused me of not doing for the user manual (without evidence BTW) you'd have realized that.

FWIW, here is a link to one of the many logging functions provided by the SDK:

I'm familiar with the SDK, thanks. You should probably read that again to see where the logs they need are stored, and not the ones implemented by Litchi. The in app logs are not standardized. It's quite clear that you don't understand how any of this stuff works.

You say I'm being vitriolic while at the same time you are smearing DJI for something that wasn't their fault is laughable. At this point all this thread has devolved to an attention grab. I feel that it needs to be clear to people who are reading it for the first time to understand that, while there is still finger pointing at DJI, it's unwarranted and undeserved. Do they have issues? Of course. This is not one of them, however.

ephektz Posted at 2017-8-5 12:57
I'm familiar with the SDK, thanks. You should probably read that again to see where the logs they need are stored, and not the ones implemented by Litchi. The in app logs are not standardized. It's quite clear that you don't understand how any of this stuff works.

You say I'm being vitriolic while at the same time you are smearing DJI for something that wasn't their fault is laughable. At this point all this thread has devolved to an attention grab. I feel that it needs to be clear to people who are reading it for the first time to understand that, while there is still finger pointing at DJI, it's unwarranted and undeserved. Do they have issues? Of course. This is not one of them, however.

Ok, so I'm confused. I said "I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK." to which your response was "What? That's not how this works". But now, apparently, you do know that the SDK writes its own log files in addition to whatever app is using the SDK? (Litchi, DJI Go, or something else).

As for "smearing", the generally accepted definition of that would be making untruthful accusations. I have done nothing here but state the facts, and my opinion of the facts. You may not agree with my opinion, but that doesn't make the facts untruthful.

Regardless, I do think DJI is and has been fairly unclear as to what the requirements are for making a warranty claim in the case of a "flyaway". Part of the motivation of this thread is to point that out, in the hope that others may not end up in the same situation that I did.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-5 04:05
Agreed. And in this case I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK. However, it appears DJI has chosen not to implement sufficient logging in the SDK and/or only supports log analysis from DJI go.

In this case, I also think they probably just don't care. They are a big, successfully company and don't have to compete on customer service

I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK.

Can you make them available here? It might help your cause if we can see for ourselves the same information you have.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-8-5 13:56
Ok, so I'm confused. I said "I do have logs that were created by the DJI software that is part of the SDK." to which your response was "What? That's not how this works". But now, apparently, you do know that the SDK writes its own log files in addition to whatever app is using the SDK? (Litchi, DJI Go, or something else).

As for "smearing", the generally accepted definition of that would be making untruthful accusations. I have done nothing here but state the facts, and my opinion of the facts. You may not agree with my opinion, but that doesn't make the facts untruthful.

You've been asked repeatedly to post logs and haven't. You're failing to grasp what I'm saying.

Let's make this very simple and clear: The only place that automatic logging is taking place is on the controller and on the Mavic. The logs for Litchi (which you claim that logging was turned off) are not standardized or automatic. The Mavic itself doesn't *use* the SDK, it's the *target platform.*

At this point it just looks like you're trolling.

DroneFlying has again asked for your logs (the ones you just mentioned you had). If you want help, post them. He's probably one of the most helpful people on this forum.

Kalibr Posted at 2017-6-22 12:25
Wait a second! You charged your battery 17 times in 2 days???

charged your battery 17 times in 2 days ?

wowwww, did you sleep in this 2 days ?

Try get past the fact that at yr first attempt dji blew you off saying user error -.
Here you are getting another chance -
it happened, its past, now leave it behind.
the graph does appear to show an issue - however i am not saying it is dji fault or user error, just that in normal circumstances there appears something abnormal.
However in abnormal circumstances - for example sport mode into heavy head wind, i do not know what that graph would look like - so maybe in certain abnormal circumstance the graph does show a typical curve.
Lucky for me i only use djigo app because i only found out recently (after 6 months) that 3rd party apps are a problem for dji.
Having said that - if you can show that your product was the problem and not the app then maybe you might find some dji help here or have relevant facts to challange them with
Concentrate on getting data that will prove yr case - airdata seems to provide more indepth analysis, to be honest i still cant access assistant 2 so i do not know fully what it offers but from viewing other peoples reports and airdata reports the later appears to be superior.

DJI Joe Posted at 2017-6-19 11:15
You warranty will still be honored if the crash was clearly caused by the aircraft itself.

thanks dji joe - it is reassuring for me to know that proper ethics trumps legal technicalities

Bekaru Tree Posted at 2017-8-6 11:46
Try get past the fact that at yr first attempt dji blew you off saying user error -.
Here you are getting another chance -
it happened, its past, now leave it behind.

From what I understand he doesn't have his Mavic. He also claimed to not have logs, except now he claims to have logs. It is a mystery. Regardless, he hasn't posted anything useful. I'm waiting to see these "SDK logs" he says he has, though.

if you really have 17 recharges on a 2 day old battery - then maybe you got a reconditioned one instead of a brand new one ?
i would not be happy and be suspicious about it.

Bekaru Tree Posted at 2017-8-6 11:52
if you really have 17 recharges on a 2 day old battery - then maybe you got a reconditioned one instead of a brand new one ?
i would not be happy and be suspicious about it.

What? He *flew* that many charges.

DocDNA Posted at 2017-6-23 17:32
You are a genius. I thought I'd checked before, but your message made me look again, and I just found some log files in the DJI/SDK_Logs directory. There's an encrypted DAT file (not readable in DatCon) and a text file.

The text file has lat/long info in it (not updated too frequently). But I now I can see it went down in about 30 feet of water. I'm tempted to throw on my Scuba gear and see if I can find it.  It would probably make my case a little easier if I actually had the thing in my hands!

That would help alot if you have a care refresh -

Have the logs been posted anywhere?