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Griffith
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michaelts Posted at 2017-7-17 15:46
"DJI aren't the ones setting the NFZs, the authorities are. Its the responsibility of the user to comply with them not the drone manufacturer. There is absolutely no way DJI can include every NFZ, temporary restriction and NOTAM worldwide reliably.  The user has full responsibility for compliance."

Good argument, but I highly doubt it will carry much weight in court if a drone causes a crash and DJI gets sued in the USA where the product liability laws are the most "pro-consumer" in the world. DJI is now on notice that a 21-year old can buy Mavic and have fun flying it 86 meters from a landing plane. A plane crash is now "reasonably foreseeable" and DJI will carry the burden of proving that it has taken every safeguard that it was feasible to take to prevent drones flying within NFZ of each and every airport in the world. It appears DJI has already implemented such safeguards, but they are simply not accurate. The scary thing is that the official NFZ of Sde Dov airport is broader than what DJI programmed into its drones, not the other way around. Why did that occur? Can DJI offer a good-faith explanation why it is absolutely not feasible for DJI to make NFZ at least broader than what the local NFZ rules require? In the eyes of the product liability law, the notion that "[t]he user has full responsibility for compliance" is irrelevant.

Anyone can sue for any  reason, but in the case of a suit  against a manufacturer, the plaintiff would need to prove gross negligence.  I don't think DJI is worried about such a suit (except for the extreme cost of defense).  I would be worried more about aviation authorities placing greater restrictions on drone use and stiffer penalties on violators.

I think DJI's inclusion and tacid enforcement of NFZ, was a weak attempt to placate aviation authorities from broad drone restrictions.  Their failure was their failure (rush) to secure accurate data and inability to implement polygonal GEO fencing.  I expect the drone community will be even less happy with the next solution.
2017-7-18
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michaelts
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"Anyone can sue for any  reason, but in the case of a suit  against a manufacturer, the plaintiff would need to prove gross negligence."

Perhaps this what you believe the law should be, but this is not what law currently is. At least in the USA.

When it comes to "inherently dangerous products," failure to provide adequate warning is a strict liability tort. This means that plaintiff does not need to prove even negligence, let alone "gross negligence." The mere fact that the injury occurred due to the inadequate warning is enough. It does not matter what plaintiff knew, what was his intent, whether he did everything he possibly could to avoid injury, etc.

Here are the elements of the cause of action under Restatement (Second) of Torts, § 402A:

(1) the defendant sold the product that injured the plaintiff
(2) the defendant was in the business of selling products of the type that injured the plaintiff
(3) use of the product involved a danger of which the defendant was required to provide a warning
(4) the defendant did not provide an adequate warning of this danger
(5) the plaintiff was injured (i.e., suffered personal injury or property damage) as a proximate result of the lack of an adequate warning of the danger

DJI can easily avoid liability by providing "adequate warning." Maybe DJI's next solution would be to require the user each time he flies the drone to click on the button "The NFZ information programmed into the drone is NOT accurate. I have checked the local NFZ rule and I promise to follow them." Maybe the drone community finds this solution annoying and irritating. But I am sure we do not want DJI to go out of business if the court finds that flying drones 86 meters from a landing plane is "inherently dangerous activity" and the disclaimer in the documentation that urges the user to check local NFZ rules is not "an adequate warning" because it does not clearly suggest that the user should never rely on the NFZ information that DJI checked and programmed into the drone.
2017-7-18
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hallmark007
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michaelts Posted at 2017-7-18 12:40
"Anyone can sue for any  reason, but in the case of a suit  against a manufacturer, the plaintiff would need to prove gross negligence."

Perhaps this what you believe the law should be, but this is not what law currently is. At least in the USA.

You are missing the whole point here. It's not dji's job to keep drones out of airports, this is the job of FAA and airport police, if a drone breeches an NFZ at an airport, this will be a matter for authorities in charge. Remember your country passed these drones to fly in your country including all testing and then dji and other retailers are allowed sell them.

It's like saying that if someone kills somebody while drink driving that fault lies with manufacturers for having cup holders in the car, or for just allowing a car to start with a drunk person trying to start it.
2017-7-18
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The difference with the drunk driving example is that the car manufacturer never implied that the cup holders are intended for the driver's alcoholic beverages. In contrast, DJI did imply that its software is intended to prevent flying drones in no-fly zones, and the user will not be able to operate the drone if he attempts to fly it within a no-fly zone. See the difference?
2017-7-18
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Another key difference is that the driver must have a license to drive, and thus he is charged with knowing the rule that no driving under influence is allowed. The 21-year old guy in Tel-Aviv has no license, and is not charged with knowing the NFZ rules of Sde Dov airport. DJI did not require the guy to obtain the license. He is under an impression that his Mavic will not fly if he is within the airport's no fly zone because DJI's software take care of that.

2017-7-18
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hallmark007
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michaelts Posted at 2017-7-18 13:32
Another key difference is that the driver must have a license to drive, and thus he is charged with knowing the rule that no driving under influence is allowed. The 21-year old guy in Tel-Aviv has no license, and is not charged with knowing the NFZ rules of Sde Dov airport. DJI did not require the guy to obtain the license. He is under an impression that his Mavic will not fly if he is within the airport's no fly zone because DJI's software take care of that.

Again with regards to license, it's not dji's job to apply this to their AC it's your government and FAA , your government has decided that these AC can be sold and flown in your country without license, you surely can't absolve all these in favour of suing dji.

I think we have exhausted this now, I will agree to disagree with you, good luck.
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 01:33
Again with regards to license, it's not dji's job to apply this to their AC it's your government and FAA , your government has decided that these AC can be sold and flown in your country without license, you surely can't absolve all these in favour of suing dji.

I think we have exhausted this now, I will agree to disagree with you, good luck.

100% agree with Hallmark here...

Its not DJI's job or responsibility to stop us from flying anywhere. I see there attempt to lock down NFZ's as value added....

But at the end of the day, its ALWAYS the owners responsibility. I have a remote control petrol car... its capable of 70mph.... imagine the havoc I could create if I took that out on the road... Its my responsibility to not be an idiot, not CEN, but because this is "old technology" and doesn't sell the in the same numbers or get the same coverage drones do you don't see this being blasted all over the internet. I think it more likely that I could cause a bus to crash and kill everyone on it that a drone will take out a plane.
I can't be bothered reading the entire thread, but I did see someone say this guy was maybe outside the NFZ (official, not DJI). Even if this is the case he should not be flying anywhere near any airplane in flight. He is, without question, an Idiot Pilot and DJI can never be held accountable for that persons actions.

2017-7-19
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People robbing banks are going to ruin it for us normal people, they will ban us going into banks and make it all online.   Ohhhh wait....  
But yes, criminals like this guy should NOT ruin for the rest of us, we are no part of this criminality.
2017-7-19
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HomePoint Posted at 2017-7-19 04:50
People robbing banks are going to ruin it for us normal people, they will ban us going into banks and make it all online.   Ohhhh wait....  
But yes, criminals like this guy should NOT ruin for the rest of us, we are no part of this criminality.

Stupid analogy, banks are commercial business who need people to go into banks, does aviation need more headaches than they can cope with.
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-16 10:30
If we have no common sense, we should all blame dji, that makes sense.

Stupidity isn't punishable by death. If it was, there would be a hell of a population drop.”

Omg! Over here in the states there would be no one left....
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-16 07:08
I'm not a lawyer, therefore I wonder what a judge would decide in a court of law?
Must a civilian NFZ map be inch-perfect or is there some slack?

i am not a lawyer either basically it works like this - if you break the national laws of a country then they will or could hold you to account for breach of their laws - it is each persons responsibility to make sure what the countries laws are (ignorance of the law is not valid excuse) - if a company says you may fly somewhere but the country says it is against their law, especially when it is a military state -i would want to be on the right side of their laws.
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-16 00:38
Exactly, people are more worried about drones (excluding military drones) crashing into an airplane, but forget that birds are a far greater danger to any airplane.
Some people also seem to forget that this serial killer, this mass murderer called car kills millions of people each year on earth.

User error is the cause of by far most car crashes - birds are less risk than drones because they are not flown by fools and do not suffer irrational, unexpected and unanticipated breakdowns and gps signal loss which might randomly cause them to drift uncontrolably .
Also i am sure that a bird in a blender will cause less harm than a drone with explosive parts (battery)
2017-7-19
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Bekaru Tree Posted at 2017-7-19 06:04
User error is the cause of by far most car crashes - birds are less risk than drones because they are not flown by fools and do not suffer irrational, unexpected and unanticipated breakdowns and gps signal loss which might randomly cause them to drift uncontrolably .
Also i am sure that a bird in a blender will cause less harm than a drone with explosive parts (battery)

Very true battery is the problem.
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 06:09
Very true battery is the problem.

I am sure I will open to correction, but my understanding is that the concerns with the type of battery we use is not "explosion" but "ignition" due to the chemicals involved and how they can break down due to runaway reactions? They then ignite causing fire and then maybe explosion? Is it not more likely that the battery would be ripped a part with such force that it would be rendered inert before any reaction begins?

The issue here is that no one will put the required testing in place. DJI wouldnt want to pay for it because A) jet engines are expensive and B) if it does obliterate the engine they raise their level of exposure as they found the issue. The plane and engine manufacturers would also be effected by A) jet engines are expensive and B) if its proven that its no worse than a bird strike they weaken their correct stance on Drone flying near planes.

Just my 2 cents!
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 05:33
Stupid analogy, banks are commercial business who need people to go into banks, does aviation need more headaches than they can cope with.

I am glad you cleared that one up for me.  How STUPID of me.
The word STUPID: "having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense".

Your choice of words are as bad as mine my friend.
2017-7-19
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HomePoint Posted at 2017-7-19 06:37
I am glad you cleared that one up for me.  How STUPID of me.
The word STUPID: "having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense".

Maybe just empty headed. Lol
2017-7-19
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MARSAN
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Bekaru Tree Posted at 2017-7-19 06:04
User error is the cause of by far most car crashes - birds are less risk than drones because they are not flown by fools and do not suffer irrational, unexpected and unanticipated breakdowns and gps signal loss which might randomly cause them to drift uncontrolably .
Also i am sure that a bird in a blender will cause less harm than a drone with explosive parts (battery)

How many airplanes were downed by drones (excluding military drones)?
How many airplanes were downed by birds?

Please get your facts updated!
2017-7-19
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hallmark007
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 07:44
How many airplanes were downed by drones (excluding military drones)?
How many airplanes were downed by birds?


Zero aircraft brought down by drones is where we should all be aiming for, you will also be aware that are a heck of a lot more birds in the sky than drones.

Reality is birds were in the sky long before aircraft, so have earned their right to fly free and we must work around that.

So maybe your right birds do pose more of a threat to manned aircraft, but only because of their shear numbers. Drones must not add to that.

You seem to be on a one man crusade to have drones hovering around manned aircraft . Lol
2017-7-19
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MARSAN
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 08:59
Zero aircraft brought down by drones is where we should all be aiming for, you will also be aware that are a heck of a lot more birds in the sky than drones.

Reality is birds were in the sky long before aircraft, so have earned their right to fly free and we must work around that.

What is your point at the end of the day?
To save human lives?
Then why don't you ban this serial killer, this mass murderer called motor vehicle?

Quote:
"Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day."

Source:
http://asirt.org/initiatives/inf ... ad-crash-statistics

Motor vehicles are also newcomers in the world, go ahead now and ban them, and be consequential and be consistent.

By the way, do you have the slightest proven evidence that our silly little drones (excluding military drones) can fatally damage an airplane weighing several tons?
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 09:16
What is your point at the end of the day?
To save human lives?
Then why don't you ban this serial killer, this mass murderer called motor vehicle?

Man you have some serious chips on your shoulder, I'm not going to debate the problems with cars or wars or nuclear bombs with you.
This forum is about drones and that's why people come here , to discuss drones and all things to do with drones, I'm sure there are many automobile forums for that discussion.
Even when I agreed with you that birds have caused more problems for manned aircraft than drones, you still want to argue.

I believe it beholds us all here to do our level best to insure we don't damage the reputation of drone flying and the good record of nil deaths, and I don't believe we should take unnecessary chances in the pursuit of our own selfishness.
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-15 09:29
I believe that this "Stupid Pilot" was flying his Mavic precisely outside of the NFZ for that airport.
Look at the map here:
http://www.dji.com/flysafe/no-fly

What about the altitude? The limit in Israel is 50 meters, unless one has a special permission... also, the NFZ in DJI map is actually smaller than the 2 km requested by Israeli rules about drones.
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-16 00:38
Exactly, people are more worried about drones (excluding military drones) crashing into an airplane, but forget that birds are a far greater danger to any airplane.
Some people also seem to forget that this serial killer, this mass murderer called car kills millions of people each year on earth.

Cars don't kill people, people driving cars kill people...
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 09:28
Man you have some serious chips on your shoulder, I'm not going to debate the problems with cars or wars or nuclear bombs with you.
This forum is about drones and that's why people come here , to discuss drones and all things to do with drones, I'm sure there are many automobile forums for that discussion.
Even when I agreed with you that birds have caused more problems for manned aircraft than drones, you still want to argue.

If you want to win the argument, then do come with hard factual arguments.
Your "common sense" and "I believe" and personal opinion do not impress me a bit.
All you are saying is, "I think our drones are dangerous, therefore they are". Where are the facts?

The fact that motor vehicles kill over one million people worldwide each year does not interest you.
How many people were killed or even seriously injured by our little drones in the past year?
2017-7-19
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MARSAN
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Antonio76 Posted at 2017-7-19 10:12
Cars don't kill people, people driving cars kill people...

Then ban people from driving/riding motor vehicles, if you prefer to split hair.
Over one million people killed each year worldwide by motor vehicles being operated by people is nothing to be sneezed at.
And I haven't even mentioned firearms and illegal drugs yet...
2017-7-19
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Antonio76 Posted at 2017-7-19 10:05
What about the altitude? The limit in Israel is 50 meters, unless one has a special permission... also, the NFZ in DJI map is actually smaller than the 2 km requested by Israeli rules about drones.

Then we have finally found the culprit: DJI and their faulty NFZ maps.
2017-7-19
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it looks fake like from a flight simulator
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 11:17
If you want to win the argument, then do come with hard factual arguments.
Your "common sense" and "I believe" and personal opinion do not impress me a bit.
All you are saying is, "I think our drones are dangerous, therefore they are". Where are the facts?

I can only say I'm glad nobody agrees with you here, and it is impossible to try to explain anymore, you are now a majority of one.
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 07:44
How many airplanes were downed by drones (excluding military drones)?
How many airplanes were downed by birds?

Whether we think that a drone even could or how many birds actually have downed a plane is not the point.
The point is about the importance of setting reasonable guidelines and adhering to them to avoid the possibility of causing injury or death of another person/s.
Culpability is basically whether the court deems it to be yr fault or not or at some level in between-  the punishment for which could be suspended sentence to life in prison.
Assuming the court rules it really was not your fault, you are still going to have to learn to live with and come to terms with the fact that you have cause the death of another and what the implications of that are to all who loved or depended on them.
If you knowingly broke the law and caused injury or death the courts and yr conscience is going to take a bigger chunk out of yr happiness and freedom.
If you unknowingly broke the law and cause injury or death that is not a valid excuse in terms of law then the lawyers will take more of yr money arguing invalid defense and you will still be punished by the courts and yr conscience.
Having done a wiki search and a quick mental calculation it seems to me that if one drone crashed only one medium to big passenger airplane and all passengers are killed - that this drone pilot will have caused more human death than all the bird related aircraft deaths since man started sharing the skies with birds more than a century ago.
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 11:56
I can only say I'm glad nobody agrees with you here, and it is impossible to try to explain anymore, you are now a majority of one.

How many more times must I tell you that I do not care about your personal opinion?
You consider the negligible danger of our small drones to be a huge problem, but you ignore this serial killer, this mass murderer: The motor vehicle.
I consider this sort of attitude mind boggling!
2017-7-19
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Bekaru Tree Posted at 2017-7-19 12:17
Whether we think that a drone even could or how many birds actually have downed a plane is not the point.
The point is about the importance of setting reasonable guidelines and adhering to them to avoid the possibility of causing injury or death of another person/s.
Culpability is basically whether the court deems it to be yr fault or not or at some level in between-  the punishment for which could be suspended sentence to life in prison.

Do you know of a real case law where a drone accident (excluding military drones) was involved or are you merely speculating now?
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 12:22
How many more times must I tell you that I do not care about your personal opinion?
You consider the negligible danger of our small drones to be a huge problem, but you ignore this serial killer, this mass murderer: The motor vehicle.
I consider this sort of attitude mind boggling!

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 12:31
Do you know of a real case law where a drone accident (excluding military drones) was involved or are you merely speculating now?

:-) good luck
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 12:31
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

I am not expressing my own opinion, I am presenting facts here.
You do nothing else but bombard me constantly with your personal opinion and speculations trying to convince me to believe something that does not exist.
Show me the FACTS and you will earn respect.
2017-7-19
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That has been precisely my message all along!
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 12:22
How many more times must I tell you that I do not care about your personal opinion?
You consider the negligible danger of our small drones to be a huge problem, but you ignore this serial killer, this mass murderer: The motor vehicle.
I consider this sort of attitude mind boggling!

Marsan,

Dude, take a joint and relaxxxx. If you don't care about people's opinions then why are you arguing with everyone on this forum?

You want to fly drones and down a plane then go ahead and do it...it is a free world but you will pay the consequences. The same way that whomever causes a car accident will pay the consequences.

The issue at hand here is that one IDIOT's action will affect hundred of thousands of other people around the world, beside who is being at fault, DJI, NFZ, your government our government or the fkin idiot!



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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 12:46
I am not expressing my own opinion, I am presenting facts here.
You do nothing else but bombard me constantly with your personal opinion and speculations trying to convince me to believe something that does not exist.
Show me the FACTS and you will earn respect.

I have given you the facts, but your to big a fool to see them, no deaths from drone collisions with manned aircraft, this is good it's also a fact.

This is the way everyone would like it to stay, "it seems except for you" but as dronist says it's a free world go out and fly at your local airport, and if anyone says or tells you to stop, just tell them dji sent you.
2017-7-19
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 13:02
I have given you the facts, but your to big a fool to see them, no deaths from drone collisions with manned aircraft, this is good it's also a fact.

This is the way everyone would like it to stay, "it seems except for you" but as dronist says it's a free world go out and fly at your local airport, and if anyone says or tells you to stop, just tell them dji sent you.

You are doing it yet again: Pouring YOUR personal opinion all over me!
What you are writing about me, I have never ever written and I have never ever expressed.
Your problem, live with it...
2017-7-19
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MARSAN Posted at 2017-7-19 13:16
You are doing it yet again: Pouring YOUR personal opinion all over me!
What you are writing about me, I have never ever written and I have never ever expressed.
Your problem, live with it...

Your trying to defend the indefensible, you haven't shown any facts yourself but continue to badger people looking for facts. Believe me an eight year old would know what's wrong and what's right.

Now don't want to hear from you again. Good day
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-7-19 13:26
Your trying to defend the indefensible, you haven't shown any facts yourself but continue to badger people looking for facts. Believe me an eight year old would know what's wrong and what's right.

Now don't want to hear from you again. Good day

On your way out, please learn English!
2017-7-19
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STST Posted at 2017-7-16 20:46
The guy (21 years old)  was arrested by the police,
Is in House custody under restrictive conditions
They took him to the MAVIC, and the PC & Smartphone,

Thanks god, idiot like this don't deserve to own a drone
2017-7-19
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