Dear DJI,
As a proffesional UAS pilot, doing mapping, ortho photos 3D modelling and aerial surveying, I am deeply concerned about your latest firmware update.
I have been flying commercially for more than 5 years, using a variety of equipment from various manufacturers.
Amongst the systems I use is my Phantom 4. I am happy with it, and it works well. However, I have not updated my firmware and will not either.
This is after reading on this forum, as well as numerous social media forums about the many problems faced by unfortunate pilots who did.
As a licensed commercial pilot I very often fly in controlled airspace, with all the permissions required to do so from all the authorities involved.
As far as I can make out, DJI has restricted the use of the drones in a lot of places where I currently fly. I am aware of the fact that DJI can unblock an area so that I can fly my drone if need be. This is unfortunately out of touch with the reality that we as commercial pilots face on a daily basis. We are limited to weather, time slots allocated by air traffic controllers and time itself. Sometimes a window of opportunity to fly is severely narrowed by the above mentioned factors and we cannot afford to wait for DJI to unblock our drones.
I normally do not use my Phantom so often such restrictions from the drone manufacturer does not worry me. I do use the Phantom as a reserve drone, or for applications where it is best suited for the job. Because my Phantom is on older firware, and I am using a old DJI GO app, my equipment still works.
I was thinking of upgrading my Phantom to a newer model, as the older one has many flights on it, and sooner or later it will be worn out.
At this point in time, as things are looking right now, I am not considering a DJI product. It is a pity, because otherwise they work very well, and are relatively well priced for what you get.
I think it is none of DJI's concern to police it's users.
I think that DJI should seriously reconsider how they restrict the use of their equipment.

I have attached an article written on this subject by another author.

I would like to get a response from DJI.




https://www.dpreview.com/opinion ... doned-professionals

NIce letter. .Good luck in getting a response from DJI. I doubt they will respond....the problem i see is DJI have taken it on themselves to cover their own arses.....because of a few idiots who have no regards for rules or regulations.....i dont think it is DJIs job to police the airspace, they should leave it to the relevant air authorities, or at least have a registration program for commercial users that permanently unlocks the copter. I do not fly commercially, but i do know my next drone will be none DJI, not because i want to fly near an airport, but i dont like the "apple" approach " do as we say "

I don't think management has ever responded in a forum.  Wouldn't hold my breath to see Wang on here.

I agree with the above that they could lock down the flight distances to maybe 150 feet altitude and 500 feet horizontal if not a 107 licensed pilot doing it commercially.  Might stop some of the reckless hobbyists who may kill the entire drone sport too.

The 107 guys will likely follow the NFZ rules to keep from losing their $150 license and reverting their gear back to minimum distances.  Plus, they should be more aware of the airspace rules too.   The 107 pilots (I think?) are TSA vetted on passing with IACRA so the terrorist idea may be nulled a bit for the bureaucrats.  Shouldn't be too much work to link the IACRA license database to DJI for the unlocking process I would think.

Other countries can follow their aviation control network with same.

Great supporting article – I second the suggestion to link the IACRA license database to DJI for the unlocking process

All 107 license holders please remember: There is a world outside the US.
I keep reading about all kind of solutions/exemptions for the 107 guys.
In general a good idea but it won't help anyone in the rest of the world.
DJI needs to implement a solution that works in all countries.

I thought that we have a decent solution to the unlocking issue, however having upgraded my P4 I don't understand how the unlock list works!  So far since the update I've only flown in unrestricted and extended green zones and don't appear to have needed to do anything to be able to fly.

Is there a video tutorial showing how to use the new system somewhere?  
If there isn't then there should be, including a quick introduction since there seem to be a lot of people who don't understand...

ScarperOz Posted at 2017-7-24 05:55
NIce letter. .Good luck in getting a response from DJI. I doubt they will respond....the problem i see is DJI have taken it on themselves to cover their own arses.....because of a few idiots who have no regards for rules or regulations.....i dont think it is DJIs job to police the airspace, they should leave it to the relevant air authorities, or at least have a registration program for commercial users that permanently unlocks the copter. I do not fly commercially, but i do know my next drone will be none DJI, not because i want to fly near an airport, but i dont like the "apple" approach " do as we say "

I don't think that DJI are trying to cover their own arses as such. I think it's more a case of them protecting their interests long term. After all if consumer drones get banned outright then DJI will loose a huge chunk of their business.

The way that various countries are responding to 'The Drone Threat', it is very likely that all drones will have to implement a GEO system before long. DJI are not the only maker doing it, and despite what everyone whines about, ultimately it is the role of DJI to police the flying areas, because no-one else can do so.

Regulation agencies are lazy, they don't want to regulate anything if they can avoid it, nor do they want to police anything either. They would much rather take the easy route out and require manufacturers like DJI to do that for them.

Aloha Cedric,

     Why are you complaining about things which you admit have not affected you?  Your letter makes many unsubstantiated claims.  What about the thousand of us who fly DJI products and have few to no problems at all.

     Why are you claiming that DJI is policing its users?  Where do you come up with that wild claim?  Apparently you have no idea about legal issues and running a business.

     Your letter is very disturbing, not for what it says about DJI, but for what it says about you.  DJI would be wise to not respond to such absurdity.  It is sad enough that they sold their product to you in the first place.

Aloha and Drone On!

Catacean, go and troll somewhere else.

Built in geofencing is to become a reality in the UK and probably the EU in the near future for all manufacturers under the new proposals. I would not be surprised if such rules are coming to a regulation system near you guys in the US.

I have to add my voice to this as well...   I have my Part 107, I have won a first place Telly Award for "Outstanding Aerial Cinematography" for my Aerial Sizzle Reel, I'm certified for night flying, and I own a couple of Phantom 4's (P4 and P4P).  I have been looking forward to finally stepping up to an Inspire, but now I'm not so sure.

DJI should NOT be in the business of policing.  That is what the FAA and governing bodies are for.  

Yes, PLEASE limit the flight abilities of hobbyists, but for the licensed professionals, PLEASE ALLOW A METHOD TO UNLOCK our drones so we can fly where we are paid to SAFELY fly.  I have been grounded once by DJI for a shoot in a remote location, but luckily it was not a paid gig.  If I get grounded for a Paid gig that I could have safely flown, I will be forced to look at other options than those presented by DJI.  Just the thought of having to tell a client that my drone was grounded by DJI for a flight that would never have gone above either eye level (using the drone as a dolly camera) or tree-top level is terrible..

Dirty Bird Posted at 2017-7-24 18:18
As I have said before, this is a solution in search of a problem.  THOUSANDS of people die in auto crashes every year.  ZERO have died as a result of small UAV...

Despite the deaths caused by automobiles, no one expects vehicle manufacturers to police drivers, & the manufacturer is not liable when a driver kills or injures someone with a car.  The same applies to all sorts of things.  Knives, guns, ladders, bathtubs, etc..  INDIVIDUALS are responsible for their behavior.  Why is it any different for a drone manufacturer?  If taking on the role of the Drone Police/NAZIs is an attempt to "protect its interests," it's short-sighted as NO ONE WILL BUY A DRONE THEY CAN'T FLY, just as no one would purchase a car they can't drive.

Comical comment coming from a proud & proven leader in irresponsible & illegal drone flying. YOU and your kind are the reason for the need for all government & industry intervention. How do you not get that?

Cedric Pieterse Posted at 2017-7-24 22:35
Catacean, go and troll somewhere else.

You may want to consider your words. There are trolls in this forum but Cetacean for sure isn't one of them. He is one of the few who always chooses his words carefully in order not to offend anyone.
If his opinion differs from yours and this is all you can say: Shame on you!

Eric 13.
Have you even read what he said?
I do not give a hoot who he is, by insulting me like that, he is a troll in my eyes.
Shame on you?
I feel no shame...

It seems that DJI is making some more bad press...

https://qz.com/1037497/people-ar ... ing-out-of-the-sky/

Cedric, I'm on your side regarding the topic at hand.  However I would encourage you to learn the definition of the word "troll" before you continue to use it.  A troll is a person who posts things solely to get a rise out of people and stir up trouble.  A troll often doesn't even truly believe the very things he is posting... it is all just for fun, to cause mayhem.  A troll is NOT a person who insults people or one who generally behaves like a jackarse.

Irate Retro Posted at 2017-7-25 12:51
Cedric, I'm on your side regarding the topic at hand.  However I would encourage you to learn the definition of the word "troll" before you continue to use it.  A troll is a person who posts things solely to get a rise out of people and stir up trouble.  A troll often doesn't even truly believe the very things he is posting... it is all just for fun, to cause mayhem.  A troll is NOT a person who insults people or one who generally behaves like a jackarse.

'A troll is NOT a person who insults people or one who generally behaves like a jackarse.'

Nor is he a person who happens to disagree with your point of view.

Nice words, good luck for the response.

Cedric Pieterse Posted at 2017-7-25 12:49
It seems that DJI is making some more bad press...

https://qz.com/1037497/people-are-complaining-that-their-new-dji-spark-drones-are-falling-out-of-the-sky/

Aloha Cedric,

     Here is your response from DJI.  You just cited the article with the response;
*******************************
Update July 15: DJI provided an updated statement to Quartz:

DJI is aware of a small number of reports involving Spark drones that have lost power mid-flight. Flight safety and product reliability are top priorities. Our engineers are thoroughly reviewing each customer case and working to address this matter urgently.

DJI products are tested for thousands of hours, and the overwhelming number of customers enjoy using our products with minimal disruption.

We are looking to implement additional safeguards with a firmware update which will be issued soon. When prompted on the DJI GO 4 App, we recommend all customers to connect to the internet and update their aircraft’s firmware to ensure a safe flight when flying their Spark.
*****************************
     I apologize if my questioning of your eminent authority on this subject has offended you.

Aloha and Drone On!

  Ok Cetacean,
Let me point out why you offended me:

This is what you wrote

"Why are you complaining about things which you admit have not affected you?  Your letter makes many unsubstantiated claims.  What about the thousand of us who fly DJI products and have few to no problems at all.

     Why are you claiming that DJI is policing its users?  Where do you come up with that wild claim?  Apparently you have no idea about legal issues and running a business.

     Your letter is very disturbing, not for what it says about DJI, but for what it says about you.  DJI would be wise to not respond to such absurdity.  It is sad enough that they sold their product to you in the first place."

Firstly,  "Your letter makes many unsubstantiated claims."
Really? Just look on the DJI forum to see how many people have issues with their drones. There are many social media forums that ecco the same issues.

Then this, " Why are you claiming that DJI is policing its users? "
BMW, Audi, Porchshe, Smith&Wesson and just about all other manufacturers on this planet do not limit their products because it might be used illegally.

And then, " Apparently you have no idea about legal issues and running a business"
A pretty wild claim from you I might add. You don't know me at all.

And lastly, " It is sad enough that they sold their product to you in the first place."

WTF is that all about?

In the article DJI did respond to the author of that article, not to me. It is good that they did respond. At least their PR department is on the ball.
They did not respond to me as you are trying to imply. Once again, this article was written for a reason. If there were no problems with the product... nevermind.

However as you seem to be the self acclaimed spokesperson for DJI, can you bring something positive to the table as far as the problems experienced by many frustrated owners of their drones are concerned?
I fly drones for a living. It is a competitive industry and time is money. I got my first DJI product because they were great. I would like to get a new one, but it seems that I now have to spend unnecessary time to get the system to work properly. My other drones work. Always. My current DJI works, albeit with old firmware. I do not want to upgrade it, because of what I read on this forum and many other forums.
I simply cannot afford to take that chance. It might work, but maybe not.

Cedric,

i fully understand your frustration as a pro.
At the moment it seems like DJI is drifting towards the consumer market and leaves it Pro´s behind.
For example, regarding NFZ, i want to point you to a thread i started month ago.
https://forum.dji.com/thread-81179-1-1.html

I never got a response from flysafe about my problems.
No response on several "pro" Problems i had either.

Like you, i will stay on old Firmware and Go App to not get into more trouble.
Im honestly waiting for custom Firmware, thats going to be out sooner or later which surely will fit better the needs of the Pro.
There is a great community working on this right now.

There is a good article here on drone sales.

https://www.recode.net/2017/4/14 ... charts-dji-forecast

The pro market is larger, but I think that is for drones beyond the P4P types.  As the old saying goes...follow the money.

Dear DJI,

You are not my mommy. I know where the terrain is and how to fly over it while maintaining 400 foot altitude. Please remove the stupid altitude restriction so I can fly up a mountain.

-Me

Cedric Pieterse Posted at 2017-7-26 02:11
Ok Cetacean,
Let me point out why you offended me:

Aloha Cedric,

     Well, does this mean you accept my apology?  Think about what you have done.  You wrote an open letter to DJi about issues that apply to an extremely limited segment of the DJI Phantom market.  You have made out like this is a real big problem.  What you seem to fail to grasp is that in the larger scheme of things, what you, and the DJI-bashers on the other social media forums, are complaining about is your own problem, not DJI's problem and it is a real small problem and easily solved (usually by doing what DJI suggests).  

     You made your letter an "OPEN" letter which means I can participate to the full extent of my ability, especially if I disagree with what you are saying - and I do have serious objections to what you are saying.  You see, in my world, fairness is the best policy and leads to the resolution of the most problems.  In my opinion you are being very unfair to DJI (probably due to your frustration - I do not think you are normally this way).

     Now, to put things in perspective; in my own experience, both as a Phantom owner (P2, P3P, P4 and P4 Pro) and assisting on this Forum, it is obvious that if there is a problem, it is something that I did, not DJI, or something a flier unknowingly did, not DJI.  This is for the very vast majority of the problems.

     When I do have a problem, and that problem can be defined, I am usually able to resolve that problem.  When there is an intractable problem, DJI is straight-forward in their desire to resolve the problem.  (I have one outstanding problem right now that affects two of my birds and DJI engineers are working hard to resolve it, not just for me but for all the owners of those birds.)

     You chose to fly drones for a living, not DJI.  You have to take responsibility for that decision.  If you cannot fix your problems, or it is too expensive to hire someone else (like DJI) to fix your problems, that is your decision and you are responsible for that decision.  That is the fair way to look at your problem and its resolution.  Maybe you should not have chosen to fly drones for a living?

     DJI on the other hand is eager to assist you in resolving your problem.  Every level of customer support and tech support I have dealt with has been very professional, courteous and eager to get my problem resolved.  One guy was on his way out the door, pau hana, when I explained my problem.  He quickly realized the nature of my problem and gave me excellent instructions which I quickly understood, and he was out the door.  It was an impressive exchange, he happily squeezed in one last problem to solve.  When I have made suggestions to DJI to improve a manual or some other effort, DJI was fair and encouraging.  An issue was resolved and problems prevented.

     Now, people are often frustrated by new and cutting edge technology.  They want the wiz-bang but do not have the patience to understand and work out the problems, especially of their understanding.  People also do not relish the idea that maybe they do not know what is going on with their problem.  It is embarrassing and many users try hard to avoid taking responsibility for their mistakes or misunderstandings.  That is why the Forum is used so often so they can vent and get sympathy from like minded people - but that does not make them right!  And that is why I will involve myself in every open letter to DJI on this Forum.

     In this thread, you have been less than fair and less than understanding of DJI, DJI's efforts to assist customers, product strategies, market efficiencies, countless basic social failures and countless business failures since you have chosen to fly drones for a living.  You have made no effort to understand the problem and have only taken it upon yourself to broadcast suspicions based on conjectures of a few customers who do not understand their problem and are frustrated.  (I am sure they are not normally that way either.)

     Under the circumstances noted above, it would be a very bad social and business move for DJI to reply directly to your open letter.  It really looks like the response I noted above is going to be the best you will get.  You have not treated DJI in a manner that would warrant a direct DJI response, since everyone will probably agree that you do not deserve one for treating DJI the way you have in this thread.  You get what you catch when you throw your net.

     BTW, are you using a DJI approved device?  Are you using up-to-date apps and firmware?  Have you installed the apps and firmware properly so they are working properly?  If any of your answers to these questions is no, you have work to do and that work does not involve complaining.  If you spend your time complaining, you will be spinning your wheels and not solving your problem.

     If you cannot resolve your problems, DJI stands ready to resolve your problems.  If there are DJI approved repair facilities in Sweden, I am sure they stand ready to resolve your problems to.  You chose how to resolve your problems.  It is not DJI's responsibility.  DJI can only lead the horse to water, DJI cannot make the horse drink.

     And DJI does not police anything, they provide services that some people, who do not understand how those services work, try to claim that it is policing.  But, DJI does have legal responsibilities that it takes very seriously, like "BMW, Audi, Porsche and Smith&Wesson" do.

     Hope this helps!

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-7-26 16:36
Aloha Cedric,

     Well, does this mean you accept my apology?  Think about what you have done.  You wrote an open letter to DJi about issues that apply to an extremely limited segment of the DJI Phantom market.  You have made out like this is a real big problem.  What you seem to fail to grasp is that in the larger scheme of things, what you, and the DJI-bashers on the other social media forums, are complaining about is your own problem, not DJI's problem and it is a real small problem and easily solved (usually by doing what DJI suggests).  

Ok, i am biting really hard on my lip to give a civilised response to this.
As I have stated, I do not have a problem with my P4.
I want to upgrade, but I am reading about too many problems experienced by too many users, some who are experienced with drones.
This is making me nervous to invest in another DJI product.
Sure, there are some people who have no problems with the latest upgrade, but an alarming amount of people do have serious problems.
I have read through many forums, to try and find the golden thread, to eliminate what people do wrong.
I have thus far, with this latest upgrade not yet found it.
With previous upgrades, you can often see the what people were doing wrong, and there were not as many complaints.
I have been in this game, before DJI were on the market, I have rigs with KK controllers, Eagle Tree, APM, Microdrone, and Aibotix.
I have a fair amount of experience in dodgy firmware upgrades, I think anyone here with APM 2.6 can relate.
I understand by now, that DJI will not respond to me. That is fine, but they should at leat come out with some way for people to revert back to previous more stable firmwares, and not let the customers be the beta testers.
Going back to auto manufacturors, they also get things wrong, but then they do a re-call and fix the problems under warranty.
For as many people as this to complain, i think that either there is a peoblem with the latest firmware, or DJI is not giving proper instructions on how to upgrade.

Gettong back to the policing issue.
I still stand by my opinion that DJI is wrong here.
None of my other drones have this stupid idiotic function.
As you stated, I take responsibillity for my actions. Each and every country has laws and regulations to deal with transgressors. Why on Earth has DJI taken it apon itself to police it's users?
If you do tje crime, you should do the time. That should be decided by the law enforcement agencies. Not DJI. What DJI has done, is to make it difficult to operate their equipment for proffesionals like me.
I will look elsewhere to purchase my next reserve drone.
I will scetch a scenario for you:
I get a call from a customer to do a mapping job in Stockholm. The customer needs to do volumetric calculations of his stockpiles for a large project. This needs to be done ASAP. He cannot wait because time is money. Now, Stockholm falls inside Bromma Airport CTR. Bromma Air Traffic Control does not give permission for drones to fly in their CTR, when it is open.  The CTR opens at 06:45 and closes at 22:00 on weekdays and Satirday. On Sunday it opens at 11:45.
In summer time, it is not a huge problem as it is light for a few hours to do my work before CTR opens.
In Winter, i am limited to Sundays only. Now DJI will unlock an area for 3 days. Say it is winter, and I go through the hassle to get DJI to unlock the area for me, but the weather turns bad, and I cannot fly on Sunday. Now I have to go through the whole process again for the next opportunity.
I am not interested to go through all that hassle to do my job. I have enough red tape to deal with already.
The result is, that I will use my old P4 for as long as it lasts, on old firmware, and get a non DJI drone without the policing function as my next reserve drone.

The multiple errors of the new P4 firmware show us that DJI does not live up to what its customers expect from it. Why? This firmware has not had the elaboration or the development that is supposed to have a product of the level of the Phanton 4. This update that is not 100% tested and that DJI has put all the users like "beta-tester" for Save the development work to do, besides instead of reacting fast and try to solve the problem, users see how time goes by and DJI does nothing, not even go to the previous firmware (has had to be a private user Is that you have to offer a solution to be able to downgrade).
A company that does not live up to what its customers expect from it, does not deserve the confidence for future purchases.

Cedric Pieterse Posted at 2017-7-26 23:08
Ok, i am biting really hard on my lip to give a civilised response to this.
As I have stated, I do not have a problem with my P4.
I want to upgrade, but I am reading about too many problems experienced by too many users, some who are experienced with drones.

Aloha Cedric,

     Your lip certainly has my sympathy.  I am not an easy person in many ways as you have seen.  I understand your problem and as much as I have experienced, I just turn off GEO and go on about my business by not using the service.  I do not see it as policing because I can turn off the service.  

     But, I live within 5 miles of the Marine Corps Base Hawaii Air Field and get the Class D airspace warning.  I can fly out of the area with multiple flight modes but can only return with simple flying because of the Class D airspace (some Multiple Flight Modes are disabled).  

     What would be considered worse by many who chaff at the bit about these "restrictions" is there is an 700 foot ridge between my area and the base.  The Marines cannot even see me until I get up to 1000 feet next to the mountain (Pali).  They are supposed to not fly over land in my area either.  But, they have the equipment to disable my birds if I violate any regulations.  So, I work around it as you are trying to do.  But, it is MCBH, not DJi that is causing my problem.

     As for the state of drone technology and how DJI fits into the market, there is no comparison and no real competition from any other company.  Yet Frank Wang is selling cutting edge technology at cutthroat prices and that is not easy.  He has 1500 engineers trying to fit the square peg of current technology used in tablets and phones and fit it into the round hole that is his cutting edge product line.  And still it is not easy because it is cutting edge.

     Think of the permutations required to get all the many variations of the Android Operating System in numerous company's tablets and phones to work with his flying algorithms.  He has already had to split off the DJI GO app from the DJI GO 4 app because of the complexity of the algorithms required for cutting edge flying.  That is also why he has developed the CrystalSky devices and the Pro+ (plus) product lines.  They use the Android OS and DJI is able to reduce the complexity of the algorithms because the Android OS is open source code. and DJI can write their own code easier now.

     Your past experiences with RC should give you an indication of the complexity of the challenge DJI is experiencing.  If you know anything about Frank Wang and DJI, it is that he does not tolerate BS well.  He is a DIY kind of guy and his product line caters to DIY kinds of people.  If you do not do DIY well, you are at a serious disadvantage owning a DJI product.  That is why DJI sells easy products and has instructions for easy use, like the approved devices lists.  

     DJI is a very unique opportunity to see how a company concept that is as much as a decade ahead of the market can maintain a cutting edge and show almost no sign of slowing down.  Sure many customers will be left behind, but not everyone drives BMWs.  (BMWs are an engineers car, Mercedes are a rich person's car.  Think about the difference.  Jaguars are a mechanics car because they are always in the shop!)  

     You have my sincerest encouragement to do the best you can under the circumstances you experience.  I totally support you when you are trying to achieve and improve your circumstances.  But, my experience has shown that we are the major source of our own problems.

     We are here on the Forum to help.  As I noted previously, fair assessments solve the most problems.  You have to weigh all the possibilities to figure out the problem.  

     If people want to stay away from DJI and their product line, it is probably better that way because they do not appreciate DJI and what DJI products can do.  There is no reason for DJI to want to lead those horses to water because DJI will not be able to get them to drink.  It would be a waste of DJI's time and DJI is riding a cutting edge wave (really a very long tidal bore).  DJI has no time for those who wipe-out along the away and do not want to get back up on the board.  Let them be spectators.  But if they come to this Forum, we will try to get them back on the board and having fun again.

     Hope this helps!

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean and Cedric:

Your civilized dialogue is both informative and inspiring. I truly appreciate the fact that although it started out rather adversarial, you both put it the effort to reach out, instead of over, to understand each other. Thanks for providing hope in a world so increasingly polar.

Keep Smiling,

Aloha and Drone on!

Augustus