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Forming an L.L.C. & Getting an N Number
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4903 66 2015-3-22
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Bob Marley
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Guys, two quick questions -

1) - what is the cheapest and fastest way to form an LLC ? (fastest not as important as cheapest). I'm in IL -

2) - How do I register my I1 with the FAA to get an N number?

thx in advance
Bob
2015-3-22
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DJK
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I used LegalZoom.com for the LLC. It was fast and easy. Still trying to figure out the N number part. Is it really necessary, this is not an airplane.
2015-3-23
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InspiredOne
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"Is it really necessary, this is not an airplane."

Not yet...
2015-3-23
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skyvideoct
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I'm taking the Pilot Prep course for the Knowledge test now in anticipation and hope that if I at least have the certificate of passing that I will be taken seriously in what I want to do with this. I may even pay for the "full" package if it looks right after passing the aeronautical knowledge test. Knowledge is good and powerful in establishing credibility.
2015-3-23
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rodger
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InspiredOne Posted at 2015-3-23 20:59
"Is it really necessary, this is not an airplane."

Not yet...

I can see it coming. I think it will be in the form of something like a certification by the AMA in the States.
2015-3-23
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vonbaron1
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I'll put a N number on mine when they put them on footballs and baseballs as flying objects also.  I have it on my homebuilt and that's enough of that crap to hold me.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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DJK Posted at 2015-3-23 18:59
I used LegalZoom.com for the LLC. It was fast and easy. Still trying to figure out the N number part ...

Thx for the reply my friend.
Legal zoom was the first thing I looked at last night after I saw an ad on tv.
Sucks they make you fill out the entire world b4 they tell you the cost of the State fee $612 bucks .....

so then ......
I googled IL LLC application fee and an State page popped up. I went for a look around and they ask the same questions as LegalZoom on the same easy to use page WITHOUT the minimum $150 LegalZoom fee.

My start-up money will not be available until tomorrow so I thought I would post here and get your guy's feedback, (thinking perhaps there is a better/cheaper way)
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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DJK Posted at 2015-3-23 18:59
Still trying to figure out the N number part. Is it really necessary, this is not an airplane....


I am using it strictly as an advertising ploy.
Same with my insurance, same with my L.L.C., and any future certifications FAA may want folks to achieve.
Not that I think the others are unimportant, they are, I plan on showing potential customers, (not telling them about it).

I think it will be advantageous to walk into a potential clients office, such as my local municipality, well dressed and with documents in hand to ease the mind of said potential client. I want to separate myself as far as I can from that yahoo that was flying above the News Helis last week. The only Drone news on tv is bad news and I want to disassociate myself with the bad image folks are getting about them -

Make sense, or am I going overboard?
2015-3-23
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drklion
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It looks like you have a handle in getting yourself a corporation as for the N number here is a link http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnav_inquiry.aspx

You will input a range of numbers that you maybe interested in having as your N number.  Once you know what N number you want you reserve it, if it is not taken, with a small fee.

At this point you have reserved the N number but you need to attach that number to your craft.  You do that by registering it.  Go to this link http://www.faa.gov/licenses_cert ... ircraft_regn_forms/

You will need to go to your local FSDO.   The registration form you will need is not downloadable so you need to go to your local FSDO.

You will need a bill of sale of the bird and form AC 8050-88 filled out.  Mail the forms to the address that is on the forms.  Wait a few weeks for the FAA to look it over.  Once everything looks good they will send your registration with your N Number attached to your bird.

Hope this helps.

I have done the same for our I1 (N801SG) GeoSky3
2015-3-23
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DJK
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My total was around 400 and that included them being my agent. The Fl state fee was 85. You are in the wrong state. I Am not sure that I want to find the closest FSDO, and surprised it is not online. I already have an N number on my plane, but if it is as hard as it sounds and has to be renewed every 3 years, i'm not convinced it would be beneficial yet. I am surprised they will give it a number. Don't forget that you will be paying ad-valorem tax every year too.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 05:52
It looks like you have a handle in getting yourself a corporation as for the N number here is a link ...

Are you kidding?  Thank you so very, very much, (I would pay for that kind of reply).
(I have just saved all the data you have provided).

There is so much priceless info getting lost on this unorganized site already, makes me sad this info will be buried by tomorrow. I designed and run a very popular fishing forum just like this for the last 16 yrs. Unlike this site, everything is organized and easy to find. If DJI employed a guy like myself, this site would be beautiful and easy to navigate within a couple weeks. (no one would even bother with rcg again).
2015-3-23
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drklion
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-3-24 06:09
Are you kidding?  Thank you so very, very much, (I would pay for that kind of reply).
(I have j ...

No Problem, glad to help.
2015-3-23
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drklion
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Just a note to DJK about the N number.  When you have a plane in Florida you pay a use tax (as you fly you pay).  You mark your hours and pay the tax man, not sure if you were aware of this but I figured I should mention it.  As for our Inspire 1 we registered it for several reasons:
1. We have put in our request for waiver to the FAA.  
2. We are a business and once our business is approved we would maintain flight logs and provide the state with our flight hours along with the taxes due.  

Now for argument sake you do not have to register your Inspire 1 and get a N Number.  If your intentions are to fly the Inspire 1 professionally (charge money) then you will need to register it and go through the hassle of submitting to the FAA.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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DJK Posted at 2015-3-24 06:05
My total was around 400 and that included them being my agent. The Fl state fee was 85. You are in t ...

Thanks again, you are not kidding about IL, (not even any lube).
You really have me thinking now if it's worth the time and money for the N number.

What is FSDO?

Other than the "brag factor" I am unaware of any advantages for getting one.

Maybe drklion will be kind enough to tell us why he did it, (advantages and disadvantages).
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 06:24
If your intentions are to fly the Inspire 1 professionally (charge money) then you will need to register it and go through the hassle of submitting to the FAA. ...


Thx again, I am going to follow your lead my friend. I look up to peeps who insist on doing things the right way.
I want to do everything by the book and appreciate you steering me in the right direction drklion.

I read somewhere about the 333 waiver. From what I gathered it costs tons of money and would knock me right out of the game? Can you please enlighten us about that waiver?
2015-3-23
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drklion
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1. The FSDO is Flight Standards District Offices.  Just your local FAA office.
2. The 333 waiver does not cost a ton of money if you do it yourself but it will take up a ton of your time.  It took us three weeks to get the writing done properly and I am sure the FAA will want some changes.  The best way to understand it is to read the petitions from the companies that want the waivers.  Here is the link http://www.regulations.gov/#!sea ... FAA;fp=true;ns=true
3. On these pages you will find all the companies looking for waivers.  Open their documents and start reading.  After a few you will get the idea and then you can match it up with want you want to do.
4. If you are not familiar with the FAA or any flight rules my suggestion is to find someone that just does this for a living.  I believe we might have someone on these boards but do not remember his name.  Put a search for FAA 333
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 07:07
1. The FSDO is Flight Standards District Offices.  Just your local FAA office.
2. The 333 waiver doe ...

Thx again for all the valuable info.
Yes, I am familiar with the FAA and the Flight Rules, (thoroughly researched them b4hand)

How much time/money do you have invested in this 333 process, (if you don't mind), is their response time in line with DJI's (wink wink lol).

Assuming you are aware of the "proposed" commercial flight rules that surfaced a couple Sundays back, how does your waiver request differ in privileges from what is proposed?  If these new rules go into effect b4 you are granted your exemption, will you be able to operate under them, (or will you still need the exemption to accomplish your goals)?
I honestly appreciate all your help and my good Karma will flow your way -

(if there is anything you would like to advise me of in private please pm me)
2015-3-23
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DJK
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Have the FAA regulations been vetted that require a inspire size drone to get an N number? I thought it was looking like a 50lb drone was more likely the trigger point.

Perhaps the use tax is only for commercial use of an airplane, I am not aware of a use tax on private planes. I paid sales tax when I bought it, and there is no annual ad-valorem in Florida.

What kind of tax money are we talking about for commercial use of the drone in Florida?

A real estate photo business could not make a profit with this level of regulation...
If you charge for the editing vs the drone hours, how is the drone not just a tool.
2015-3-23
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drklion
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DJK Posted at 2015-3-24 07:42
Have the FAA regulations been vetted that require a inspire size drone to get an N number? I thought ...

To BM and DJK,

1. We have invested a month or two in prepping the documents for final submission.  As for money, I tend to do things myself so I save.
2. The rules that the FAA presented a few weeks back is just a preliminary.   We have a long way to go so it is worth putting in the request under 333.
3. Regarding the need for a N number for a drone I am not aware that it is a need but by registering the UAS and getting its own N number you are basically following the rules of a commercial operation.  The waiver comes into effect when the rules make no sense for the Inspire 1 so you make the request for the waivers (333).
4. The tax in Florida is tricky because their is nothing set in stone from what I know, I may be mistaken.  As you may or may not know we have a Sales and Use tax for aircraft in FL.  The tricky part here is that the FAA has not ruled yet on UAS's so Florida, again anyone may correct me if I am wrong, can not place a use tax but you can see the writing on the wall.
5. As for the real estate business using the UAS for now works as long as your waivers are approved.  As mentioned Florida has no use tax on UAS other then the business tax, this may change with the FAA .

If we want to play by the rules of the FAA then we must use, in a way, the rules as if it was a regular aircraft.  If you read the FAA document that was published a few weeks ago it did say what a money making industry the UAS market can be.  Expect rule changes for the UAS as well as taxes and use taxes within the states.  Until the FAA comes up with rules and regulations for the UAS the states are holding back.
2015-3-23
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DJK
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 08:41
To BM and DJK,

1. We have invested a month or two in prepping the documents for final submission. ...

What part of Florida are you in? What type of business are you considering?
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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All I can say on behalf of myself and the others, thank you very much for all the time you spent answering these questions as well as providing unasked info as well. Guys like you are invaluable to sites like these. Thank you Sir
2015-3-23
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mtnred
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I have a question . I thought we could not charge money for  flights ,unless we had approval /permit from the FAA .What I know is only a few permits have been issued ?? I thought we were all not allowed to go commercial with out approval ??? I would love to go commercial legally  ,tell me how.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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mtnred@gmail.co Posted at 2015-3-24 09:31
What I know is only a few permits have been issued ?? ...


All I know is I am seeing TONS of drone footage on TV, from car commercials to wheel of fortune, the voice, every reality show on history, natgeo, discovery. I am just seeing absolutely tons and tons of drone footage on tv here in the states. There has got to be a lot of folks doing this commercially. So there has got to be many approved waivers. I bet there is a list somewhere of who has got exemptions, (how do these tv peeps find the guys to shoot all this drone footage in the US)?
Did I mention I see A LOT of it - lol?
2015-3-23
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kneverett
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Interesting reading on the legal front: http://www.kramerlevin.com/Krame ... ne-Case-03-06-2014/

If I follow the decision accurately, the FAA can't really enforce much (if anything) regarding small drone use until they get the rules authorized by a 2012 law pass by Congress into effect.  If someone is aware of any subsequent legal rulings (i.e. an appellant reversal) please post a reply.
2015-3-23
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kneverett
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BTW, take some time to visit www.regulations.gov and submit comments on the proposed rules.  It's worth a bit of time in hopes they listen and make adjustments.  Search for "FAA-2015-0150" and it should take you straight to the docket for this proposed rule.  

Failing to comment is like expecting to win the lottery without buying a ticket.
2015-3-23
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bostonlines
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Bob, you are absolutely correct.  Drone footage is everywhere. It is tough for the FAA to police it right now.   According to the FAA, using drones for commercial purposes is not allowed unless approved by them.   Once they find out, a C&D letter is issued.   Just think of it like a speed limit on the highway. While it is illegal, people speed all the time.

I live in IL and I own a small video production LLC.   The majority of my work is aerial and I have a niche market where I can stay under the radar. I don't brand any of my work and I have a few clients that use my videos more for historical and chronological purposes, so none of it is seen external to their organization.   
2015-3-23
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kneverett
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I found a more recent article on the Pirker case here: http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20141118.aspx

It appears the FAA appealed the original decision referenced above citing an ability to prohibit operations if they can be determined as "careless or reckless" in nature.  The board remanded the appeal to a judge to review evidence to determine if Pirker's operation was reckless.

Basically the appeal appears to have re-opened the door a bit for the FAA to prohibit operations IF they can prove them to have been careless or reckless.
2015-3-23
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kneverett
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bostonlines, after having read the legal references above it appears the whole "commercial use not allowed" thing is something the FAA can't really enforce.  As you indicated, they also don't have sufficient man power to police it if they could enforce it.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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jonlip Posted at 2015-3-24 10:15
Is your interest in owning a drone purely for monetary gain/business?

No it is not jon.
Nor is my interest in the 200 or so rc airships I already own, (purely for monetary gain/business)

I do teach RC classes once monthy for the last 6 yrs at our local Hobby Town USA though.
We target kids and retired folks although we take anyone if you're interested.
As you have probably already guessed, I volunteer my time and knowledge.
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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kneverett Posted at 2015-3-24 10:35
bostonlines, after having read the legal references above it appears the whole "commercial use not a ...

Hey kneverett, can we start fresh?, (I don't want to have anything but good times while I'm on this site).        
2015-3-23
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bostonlines
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kneverett Posted at 2015-3-24 10:35
bostonlines, after having read the legal references above it appears the whole "commercial use not a ...

grey area according to some.  they are just advisories, not laws.  
2015-3-23
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Bob Marley
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bostonlines@gma Posted at 2015-3-24 10:51
grey area according to some.  they are just advisories, not laws.

Im also in Illinois and it would be really nice to talk to you privately.
(I don't think we are allowed to on this site?)
2015-3-23
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drklion
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DJK Posted at 2015-3-24 09:19
What part of Florida are you in? What type of business are you considering?

We are in south Florida and we are targeting real estate, aerial photography, and other security operations.
2015-3-24
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drklion
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-3-24 09:29
All I can say on behalf of myself and the others, thank you very much for all the time you spent ans ...

Not a problem.  If I can help I do.
2015-3-24
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drklion
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mtnred@gmail.co Posted at 2015-3-24 09:31
I have a question . I thought we could not charge money for  flights ,unless we had approval /permit ...

You can not charge anyone unless you have submitted your petition for waivers through the FAA and have been approved, that is if you want to stay legal.  See above in my posts for information on how you can obtain the waivers.
2015-3-24
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kneverett
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-3-24 10:48
Hey kneverett, can we start fresh?, (I don't want to have anything but good times while I'm on thi ...

Sure Bob, I hold no grudges.
2015-3-24
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kneverett
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 19:32
You can not charge anyone unless you have submitted your petition for waivers through the FAA and h ...

I've spent a few hours searching the web for enforcement actions for commercial use of "model aircraft".  To date the only thing I've found is the case of the FAA against Pirker.  Articles on his case indicate he is the first person the FAA actually attempted to fine for commercial use.  He apparently had been on their radar for flying cities like New York, but never for direct compensation.  When he was "hired" by a university to do an aerial video they tried to establish a precedent using him as the example - trying to hit him with a $10k fine.  

So far Pirker has prevailed in all the judgments.
2015-3-24
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kneverett
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Found another article related to FAA rules.  But does not seem to add any info not already seen before: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=151&sid=33475079
2015-3-24
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Bob Marley
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drklion Posted at 2015-3-24 19:32
You can not charge anyone unless you have submitted your petition for waivers through the FAA and h ...

This just in.
Have you seen this?

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=82245&cid=TW304
2015-3-24
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drklion
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Bob Marley Posted at 2015-3-25 04:08
This just in.
Have you seen this?

Read it this morning.  That is a good step forward by the FAA.  The blanket COA makes it very easy to get up and go without requesting a COA for each area that you will be flying in.  The catch is that you will still need Section 333 exemption for your company.
2015-3-24
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