Please select Into the mobile phone version | Continue to access the computer ver.
Spark fell from the sky No warranty, no data
12Next >
3528 70 2017-8-15
Uploading and Loding Picture ...(0/1)
o(^-^)o
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Hello every body.

Yes, another case of "Spark fell from the sky". First I have to say that I'm lucky because I was testing the drone at 1 meter high when happends and I have all records and the complete video. And the damage was not severe (the spark have been fliying during another two weeks).

Let see the datas:

The compelte video


Because the crash I dont know why the log stops and for this video you have to logs, one before crash and another after crash.
2017-07-23_[11-01-02]
http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/DL8VAEGH8W2L8308UTP0/

2017-07-23_[11-08-11]
http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/7MKI3FS42XE825CVNU1M/


If you whatch the log with the video you can understand that when you press pause button during full speed sport mode the spark crash and in the logs you have nothing.. .just ended. and start a new log.



IdTime(seconds)Time(text)LatitudeLongitudeFlightModeAltitude(feet)Altitude(meters)VpsAltitude(feet)VpsAltitude(meters)Speed(mph)Speed(m/s)HomeDistance(feet)HomeDistance(meters)HomeLatitudeHomeLongitudeGpsCountBatteryPower(%)BatteryVoltageBatteryVoltageDeviationBatteryCell1VoltageBatteryCell2VoltageBatteryCell3VoltageVelocityXVelocityYVelocityZPitchRollYawRcAileronRcElevatorRcGyroRcRudderRcThrottleNonGpsErrorGoHomeStatusAppTipAppWarningAppMessage

3745
447.7
7m 27.7s
39.45733044
-0.31654142
Sport
1.3
0.4
2.6
0.8
8.1
3.6
5.1
1.6
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.955
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-3.4
0.8
0
-16.6
-5.7
164.9
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3746
447.8
7m 27.8s
39.45732714
-0.31654
Sport
1.6
0.5
2.6
0.8
8.4
3.8
6.3
1.9
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.955
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-3.6
0.9
0
-16.7
-4.5
164.8
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3747
447.9
7m 27.9s
39.45732377
-0.31653841
Sport
1.6
0.5
2.6
0.8
8.8
3.9
7.5
2.3
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.955
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-3.7
1
0
-16.4
-4
164.8
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3748
448
7m 28s
39.45732025
-0.31653677
Sport
1.6
0.5
2.6
0.8
9.1
4.1
8.7
2.7
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.956
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-3.8
1.1
0
-16.3
-3.5
165
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3749
448.1
7m 28.1s
39.45731669
-0.31653497
Sport
1.6
0.5
2.6
0.8
9.4
4.2
10.1
3.1
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.956
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-4
1.2
0
-16.9
-3
165.1
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3750
448.2
7m 28.2s
39.45731297
-0.31653317
Sport
1.6
0.5
3
0.9
9.7
4.4
11.5
3.5
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.956
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-4.1
1.2
0
-10.7
-3.1
165.1
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3751
448.3
7m 28.3s
39.45730921
-0.31653134
Sport
1.6
0.5
3
0.9
9.9
4.4
12.9
3.9
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.956
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-4
1.2
-0.1
19.8
-1.3
164.7
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684
3752
448.4
7m 28.4s
39.45730572
-0.31652969
Sport
1.6
0.5
3
0.9
9.6
4.3
14.2
4.3
39.45734419
-0.31653747
16
40
10.956
0
3.652
3.652
3.652
-3.3
1
0
56.6
8.6
167.8
1024
1024
1024
1024
1684


I thought that nothing happends except the propelers that crashed the ground a bit, but later on I saw that the gimbal had the screws not tight, and the inside fan started to make noise, even more day by day.


I sent the spark to the technical service and this is the answer:

Remark:No warranty, no data. The fan, 1 cw prop and the roll and yaw axis module are damaged.


No warranty, no data.

How can you said that because you can not explain why the fan make noise or why the gimbal is broken? Then if you dont understand the problem there is not warranty????

At least in Europe by law the first 6 month is the manufactured who has to probe that the fault is not their responsability, and from the 6 to the 24 month is the customer by default.

1 day of flight, the drone fell down from the sky, I have the log (that says nothing) I have the video that shows that the accident was a clear firmware problem (when you press pause button during full forward sport mode you dron could fall from the sky) the inside fan is damage (probably bad quality not because the accident), the screws from the gimbal were not tight and then the gimbal hit the ground and is my fault because DJI consider there there is not data????

I was so angry that they are to reconsiderer the case and forward the information to the Engineer for further review, but this is a joke. So you know, by default the answer will be NO WARRANTY, NO DATA.

DJI please, at least in Europe, if you dont have data the first 6 month is your fault by law.

This reported case could explain a lot of "fell down from the sky". With the first firmwares when you lose the signal the skark stops in the air. If you are running fast, the tilt could be so hight that the engines stop, but no data is register.

Are we all crazy?




Gimbal Screws are not tight

Gimbal Screws are not tight
2017-8-15
Use props
Thor1
First Officer
Flight distance : 196837 ft
Canada
Offline

you said there was no data but it says compass error in a few parts. also, you ran the battery to 5% so that could have caused it.  forgive me if i interpret this thread wrong.
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Thor1 Posted at 2017-8-15 03:34
you said there was no data but it says compass error in a few parts. also, you ran the battery to 5% so that could have caused it.  forgive me if i interpret this thread wrong.

The compas was ok, and is not related with the crash but when you flight close to reinforce concrete struture some times give you that error. When the spart stops the engines you dont have that error.

And the batery was 40% when stops engines. Some times I use to fligh the last 20% just for fun 10-20 meters far away in sport mode to train... I dont see relation with stops engines.
Remember that you have two logs, one before and one after... when you crash I dont know why you dont have data, the file stops and start a new one.

Thanks  
2017-8-15
Use props
Michael Stoute
First Officer
Flight distance : 3495003 ft
  • >>>
Netherlands
Offline

Just before the crash i heard a beep, did you press the pause button?
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Michael Stoute Posted at 2017-8-15 03:57
Just before the crash i heard a beep, did you press the pause button?

Yes, that beep is the pause button....

But anything that stops the spark can cause the same effect, if you go too fast and stops suddenly it will tilt too mutch and the spark will stop engines, at least that is my theory.
2017-8-15
Use props
Phuong Do
Second Officer
Flight distance : 29800 ft
Vietnam
Offline

May I ask why you flew so low, I saw the flight log show mostly 0.5m? My Spark is not so stable at that altitude either, especially under inertia, sport mode is very dangerous.
However, I can't tell why your Spark fell.
2017-8-15
Use props
OneMatt
lvl.4
Flight distance : 155984 ft
Canada
Offline

What I seem to have discovered in my case, is the log buffers and  writes at increments, likely to ensure the ac log is not corrupted in a crash/power loss. The result of this is the last second or so of a flight is not recorded.

Conveniently, this means no data, no warranty.

I too had to have it escalated for further review. Good luck with it!
2017-8-15
Use props
Didiko
First Officer
Flight distance : 18399 ft
Belgium
Offline

Could be an explanation indeed.

I don't know how sensitive is the "tilt" but manoeuvres in sport mode should probably take this aspect into account.

Also how is this pause button regarded: is it really meant to be used regularly or only in emergency situations?

2017-8-15
Use props
StarFishUK
lvl.4
Flight distance : 54970 ft
United Kingdom
Offline

Interesting that the camera carried on recording - I think this is different to other "falling brick of death" cases.
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

I had read a lot cases of falling from sky and it is better test under 2 meter height than at 40 meters... if this happens higher than that the spark would be totally destroy. I didn’t see any different between flight at 0.5 m or 2 meter or 10 meters, the behavior is the same.

I was very lucky and I know, but the question is How DJI can you answer this?

"No data then no warranty"
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Didiko Posted at 2017-8-15 04:20
Could be an explanation indeed.

I don't know how sensitive is the "tilt" but manoeuvres in sport mode should probably take this aspect into account.

The pause button cannot stop your engines in any case, it makes no sense at all. And you will not find in the manual "please don’t use the pause button, it would cause your spark fell as a brick from the sky".

Before fly over people you should make sure that the spark is not dangerous... and that was what I did.

two days later I reported the problem they realized the new firmware, I upgrade and try to reproduce the problem, the behavior was completely different. So I guess the fixed the problem.
2017-8-15
Use props
DJI Diana
Administrator
Flight distance : 2408 ft

Offline

Sorry for this, could you please provide me with your case number so I can look into it? Will do my best to make it clear.
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

DJI Diana Posted at 2017-8-15 04:59
Sorry for this, could you please provide me with your case number so I can look into it? Will do my best to make it clear.

Dear Diana, I sent you a MP.

I am an engineer, and as a costumer the answer "we don’t know why this is wrong so you pay" is a affront to the customer. If your drones fall from the sky and you don’t know what happened you cannot say to the customer "we are very sorry, but we don’t know why your spark was flying and then stop and felt down, but you can save 30% in your next spark".

All we understand that we have to send you the aircraft, and all the information that we have, and if you discovered what happened and is our fault, there is no problem at all, we will pay, but if you dont know why the spark stops engines, or the fan make noise o the gimbal is not tight please, dont say that there is no warranty.

Think for a moment: how is possible that the inside fan noise would be my fault?

This is not a matter of money, fix the gimbal and the fan is very cheap, it's a matter of principles. Up to now for me DJI doesn’t warranty the spark at all, and that is not good for DJI neither for customers, and I love the product, it is the best by far for my use, but know i'm wasting my time typing intead of flying.


Regards
2017-8-15
Use props
Charles Adams
Second Officer
Flight distance : 294528 ft
United States
Offline

Is this a "care refresh" case or a purchase warranty case?  I don't understand how this would not be covered.
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Charles Adams Posted at 2017-8-15 06:56
Is this a "care refresh" case or a purchase warranty case?  I don't understand how this would not be covered.

I have DJI Care Refresh Service but I didnt use it. From my point of view it is a clear purchase warranty case, but it seams DJI dont think like me... if the inside fan make noise then is my problem , if the gimbal have loose screws then is my fault

And fix those problem is only 50 €, but I dont want to pay for something that is clear under warranty. It is not a question of money. Today if your spark fell like a brike from the sky you have to pay... if the fan doesnt work you have to pay, if you have one loose screw you have to pay... What does the warranty cover? I would like to know what are we buying.

The other problem is when your spark fell from more than 3-4 meters over a person... I never fly over people, I dont trust in the spark.

But, in spite of all this... is the most usefull drone of my live... I use it a lot.



2017-8-15
Use props
STech - Hathder
Second Officer
Flight distance : 459094 ft
Brazil
Offline

Man, you are using SPORT mode and flying at just 50cm from the ground at full Speed, very very near to trees and light poles and making very VERY agressive stick commands to spark and pressing pause buttom that are not meant to be pressed on this situation (ok, pause button never had to cause a spark fall, but why the hell you use pause button?), if the flightlog you posted are from the video that you posted ,the battery are just 5% and you received warnings about compass error at 9Min.

It is at least a VERY irresponsible flight, i dont know how it doesnt happens minutes before in this type of flight.
2017-8-15
Use props
Charles Adams
Second Officer
Flight distance : 294528 ft
United States
Offline

On second watching of the video, I find it interesting that it happened near the light pole.  I don't know if that's coincidence, but elsewhere in this forum is a conversation/warning about flying under bridges.  At first thought, I wouldn't have associated a disruption of the compass to a "drop".  But with these two events, it might be compass related.
2017-8-15
Use props
Charles Adams
Second Officer
Flight distance : 294528 ft
United States
Offline

Charles Adams Posted at 2017-8-15 13:02
On second watching of the video, I find it interesting that it happened near the light pole.  I don't know if that's coincidence, but elsewhere in this forum is a conversation/warning about flying under bridges.  At first thought, I wouldn't have associated a disruption of the compass to a "drop".  But with these two events, it might be compass related.

Come to think of it...  that video of the drone dropping over the water tower may be another similar indication.  I'm no water tower expert, but that could have been lots of metal.

Might be able to do a test with an unused stereo speaker...  fly the drone in a very safe location, and position the speaker near it and observe the behavior.   I might give that a try.
2017-8-15
Use props
Bobesh
lvl.4
Flight distance : 270840 ft
Czechia
Offline

What I see in the log is that on 10% (critical battery warning) it started landing (as described in the manual). Sports mode or not, you were just zipping around when drone started "unstoppable" landing in high speed very close to the ground. This is no Spark falling from sky situation. My Spark fell from 100m. When that happens - logging stops, the video stops, everything stops before it shuts down the rotors in "falling brick" situation. Yours was literary crashed.
2017-8-15
Use props
$gambino$
First Officer
Flight distance : 1563980 ft
United States
Offline

No....his definitely stopped motors and crashed....regardless how much battery or how much metal or sport mode. It is not supposed to fall out when hitting pause button!!! Come on guys
2017-8-15
Use props
Charles Adams
Second Officer
Flight distance : 294528 ft
United States
Offline

$gambino$ Posted at 2017-8-15 16:00
No....his definitely stopped motors and crashed....regardless how much battery or how much metal or sport mode. It is not supposed to fall out when hitting pause button!!! Come on guys

True, it is not suppose to fall at all.  But I am not certain the pause button was involved.  It may have been a coincidence.  Maybe not.  Just exploring the options from the available data.
2017-8-15
Use props
DJI Diana
Administrator
Flight distance : 2408 ft

Offline

SuperCurro Posted at 2017-8-15 05:57
Dear Diana, I sent you a MP.

I am an engineer, and as a costumer the answer "we don’t know why this is wrong so you pay" is a affront to the customer. If your drones fall from the sky and you don’t know what happened you cannot say to the customer "we are very sorry, but we don’t know why your spark was flying and then stop and felt down, but you can save 30% in your next spark".

Got it, I've forwarded it to our appropriate team, they are looking into it now. Please sit tight while we’re reviewing it, we will keep you updated. Sorry again for your unpleasant experience.
2017-8-15
Use props
Indi91
lvl.3
Flight distance : 103973 ft
Offline

I wonder what would pause button do on sport mode? My reasoning is, if say im using intelligent mode, and i want it to cancel out, then it stops. Active track, same, to stop it. But if im giving command through stick and press the pause button, i wonder which takes priority. If the pause takes priority, then that means it will not respond to any stick commands, unless programmed to release the stick and repress it again in desired direction. I dont think it will cancel the Sport mode? (but it shouldnt stop the motors, nor stop the logs)
2017-8-15
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

STech - Hathder Posted at 2017-8-15 12:26
Man, you are using SPORT mode and flying at just 50cm from the ground at full Speed, very very near to trees and light poles and making very VERY agressive stick commands to spark and pressing pause buttom that are not meant to be pressed on this situation (ok, pause button never had to cause a spark fall, but why the hell you use pause button?), if the flightlog you posted are from the video that you posted ,the battery are just 5% and you received warnings about compass error at 9Min.

It is at least a VERY irresponsible flight, i dont know how it doesnt happens minutes before in this type of flight.

I understand your point of view... but I was testing the spark, yes at a very low altitude and with aggressive handling. I flew very low for a very easy reason, if something goes wrong I wouldnt kill anyone o destroy something or the spark itself. And I were doing agressive handling because that is the test. I wanted to be sure how is going to react the spark in difficult situations and I did it in a safety environment.

One of the test was go full speed and stop as fast as possible the spark... and that is the function of the pause button, and it didn’t work properly (it is obvious). It was not related with the poll or the ground, every time I did it the spark stops very aggressive, almost vertical... and one of it stopped engines and stop record the log....

Even now, talking with you I don’t think it is crazy try to stop your spark during a full speed fly... and there is others situation that the spark do the same. That try to stop as fast as possible.

And the other issue is the warranty. I didn’t type this post because that "accident" Do you think it makes sense the answer of "I don’t know why the fan is broken so you pay" from DJI

I can understand that Spark needs some firmware upgrades, if I find a bug I report it and they fix the problem in the next firmware, that is normal and I agree. What I don’t agree is the general answer we have of "we don’t have data so we are not responsible of". That is the point of this post, because when there is a problem you will not have data, the data logger stops when there is a problem (if the battery turns off, or the engines turns off or the spark crash... so when you have a problem DJI is not responsible of?

With the data I have I don’t think there is a relation between the fan and the gimbal and the crash, but perhaps an indirect relation (because the gimbal was not tight it damage during normal fly or something like that)... it is not clear, we need more data, and if there is not more data then DJI will have to assume the warranty.
2017-8-16
Use props
Bobesh
lvl.4
Flight distance : 270840 ft
Czechia
Offline

SuperCurro Posted at 2017-8-16 00:31
I understand your point of view... but I was testing the spark, yes at a very low altitude and with aggressive handling. I flew very low for a very easy reason, if something goes wrong I wouldnt kill anyone o destroy something or the spark itself. And I were doing agressive handling because that is the test. I wanted to be sure how is going to react the spark in difficult situations and I did it in a safety environment.

One of the test was go full speed and stop as fast as possible the spark... and that is the function of the pause button, and it didn’t work properly (it is obvious). It was not related with the poll or the ground, every time I did it the spark stops very aggressive, almost vertical... and one of it stopped engines and stop record the log....

Please keep us posted. I'm shipping mine for investigation today.
2017-8-16
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

Bobesh Posted at 2017-8-16 00:41
Please keep us posted. I'm shipping mine for investigation today.

This is the result at the moment:

Time to determinate that the gimbal and the inside fan was "damage" and the client have to pay it: 3 hours.
Time to determinate if there is a warranty problem: 3 days and increasing.

Something goes wrong, it looks like the default answer is when a new spark have a problem o fly away is "Is the customer fault". While the customer don’t have the spark to fly in their holidays or weekends.

We keep you informed
2017-8-17
Use props
video.jdinges
lvl.1
Flight distance : 709 ft
United States
Offline

thank god nobody was killed.  For DJI that would just be collateral damage.
2017-8-17
Use props
NukeSpark
lvl.2
Flight distance : 11033 ft
Gibraltar
Offline

Ive been looking at some other forums and groups and some say on there:

As the spark has the feature that if you tilt it to a certain degree/angle with your hands motors turn of as a safety feature.....

They seem to think that before the update, some rapid roll movements in the air was causing the spark to go into this mode and turn off...

2017-8-18
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

NukeSpark Posted at 2017-8-18 01:47
Ive been looking at some other forums and groups and some say on there:

As the spark has the feature that if you tilt it to a certain degree/angle with your hands motors turn of as a safety feature.....

That was my conclusion when the spark fall down. Very easy to fix in the firmware. But the question here is if DJI have a bug and their drones fell down like a brike, are they responsable or not?

We have a lot of examples where the spark shutdown during flying or go away instead of return home... and the answare is always the same: we are very sorry.

We, the customers, are the only one that can change this.
2017-8-18
Use props
NukeSpark
lvl.2
Flight distance : 11033 ft
Gibraltar
Offline

I find it ridiculous that its up to the logs to prove if you are entitled to a replacement
2017-8-18
Use props
Mattymatt
lvl.2
Canada
Offline

There needs to be a better system of analyzing Spark crashes than these logs. Logs ending suddenly like that should be an indicator of a hardware/software issue, not user error.
2017-8-18
Use props
fans4d74e7dd
lvl.3
Flight distance : 226188 ft
Germany
Offline

Hi,

could you please describe a bit better the " internal fan noise"?.. it is loud by itself or noisy like an old CPU FAN full of dust?..

Thanks!
2017-8-18
Use props
Chema_po
lvl.1
Flight distance : 92 ft
Spain
Offline

I have the same issue!! .. my spark flies  away under gesture mode for a selfie.  DJU support in NL after analyzing black box data and flight logs says NO CRASH EVENT !! ..NO WARRANTY! ... Its shameful . THIS IS NOT A WORLD CLASS COMPANY! ..only a chinese based with zero respect to consumer.
2017-8-18
Use props
fansf2304bca
lvl.4
Flight distance : 952664 ft
Chile
Offline

I don't think you are reproducing the main issue. The drones that has fallen from sky were found completely turned off. I think this is a different kind of Drop
2017-8-18
Use props
fansf2304bca
lvl.4
Flight distance : 952664 ft
Chile
Offline

I don't think you are reproducing the main issue. The drones that has fallen from sky were found completely turned off. I think this is a different kind of Drop
2017-8-18
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

fans4d74e7dd Posted at 2017-8-18 06:26
Hi,

could you please describe a bit better the " internal fan noise"?.. it is loud by itself or noisy like an old CPU FAN full of dust?..

Yes, sometimes it made a ball bearing noise like a very old fan. If you hit on the top the spark it stops. After one week making noise the fan started to go slower when making noise.
2017-8-19
Use props
SuperCurro
lvl.3
Flight distance : 625863 ft
Spain
Offline

fansf2304bca Posted at 2017-8-18 08:37
I don't think you are reproducing the main issue. The drones that has fallen from sky were found completely turned off. I think this is a different kind of Drop

Of course, it is not the same case. One case is when the spark during the flight turn it off (or we think so because is very difficult recover that unit) and my case is an over tilt that caused the stop propellers when you press pause button.

But, the log is the same (nothing) and the DJI answer is the same "we are sorry but you pay". Even in my case that is everything recorded, with both logs, and with minimal damages they say NO, no data so you pay.

So, the conclusion is DJI doesn’t offer warranty at all. I'm still waiting for DJI answer about the accident, I cannot fly my spark during my holidays It was only 60€ but I don’t agree at all (I now I 'm stupid, but I have my rights and we cannot allow this behavior with the consumers). The other question: can you imagen the situation if the spark would fall down over a person?

2017-8-19
Use props
fans41dcd681
lvl.1
Flight distance : 592073 ft
Portugal
Offline

well i have just got a spark and i have filed kitesurfing in high winds and was so surprised how stable it was i always calibrate my compass before flight and dont let the battery get so low that it wants to land itself and i think being so small you dont want to be to aggressive with it alough in sport mode its pretty fun  i think respect it and it will respect you. Lots of times its down to human error and people forget all these things have limitations  
2017-8-19
Use props
fans5d9349b7
lvl.3
United Kingdom
Offline

fans41dcd681 Posted at 2017-8-19 06:35
well i have just got a spark and i have filed kitesurfing in high winds and was so surprised how stable it was i always calibrate my compass before flight and dont let the battery get so low that it wants to land itself and i think being so small you dont want to be to aggressive with it alough in sport mode its pretty fun  i think respect it and it will respect you. Lots of times its down to human error and people forget all these things have limitations

There's still time for yours to fall dead from the sky. Don't be so quick to put it down to human error.
2017-8-19
Use props
only1stefang
lvl.1
Flight distance : 592073 ft
Portugal
Offline

just to add i noticed a few things 1st was you got a battery warning and carryed on flying for another min i would have bought it back straight away and landed warnings are there for a reason . and i also noticed a few compass errors again i would have bought it back and landed as this would have rang alarm bells for me. i also noticed you were flying close to big ships which have strong radar which can interfear with the on board computer system with the phantom not always but somtimes i have had it with my p3pro but i bring it in straight away and land it to avoid any accidents.
2017-8-19
Use props
12Next >
Advanced
You need to log in before you can reply Login | Register now

Credit Rules