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GPS ISSUES
727 38 2017-9-7
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Epicdoom
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Anyone else having GPS Issues for the past three days my phones GPS has sent me on a wild goose chase. I was in one part of town and GPS said I was 30+ miles away in another town and giving me constant turn here turn there to places no where near my location. tried three different GPS apps same issue. I am thinking with the storm coming and all the Texas efforts that satellites are bombarded or something. I'm scared to fly my drone under these conditions.
2017-9-7
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stuka75
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Im getting high KP values on my UAV app. Located in central Wisconsin. May have something t do with it. Try your p3 on the ground with no blades and SEE IF HOME POINT and SATELLITES LOCK  in good.
2017-9-7
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Epicdoom
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Hey Brother I'm in Maryland. I get good Satellite lock and I manually update my home point to make sure its set. I'm just worried Ill get in the air and GPS will get whacky and send my drone into never land. I'm back to basic Paper Map reading because of the GPS issues. I travel all over the state for work servicing heavy equipment. I rely heavily on GPS to get me where I'm going. for the past three days its been horrible and completely unusable sending me in the wrong direction, running me in circles, telling me to turn at this street name and nowhere in the area has that street name. told me I was in one town and I was in another 30 miles away. I don't care about the Drone if it goes bye bye Ill buy another one. I just don't want it to take off and hit someone or something that's the only thing I worry about when flying even RC Planes. Drones can be replace even though Id hate to loose one I would really hate if someone got hurt because of it.
2017-9-7
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Geebax
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-7 17:22
Hey Brother I'm in Maryland. I get good Satellite lock and I manually update my home point to make sure its set. I'm just worried Ill get in the air and GPS will get whacky and send my drone into never land. I'm back to basic Paper Map reading because of the GPS issues. I travel all over the state for work servicing heavy equipment. I rely heavily on GPS to get me where I'm going. for the past three days its been horrible and completely unusable sending me in the wrong direction, running me in circles, telling me to turn at this street name and nowhere in the area has that street name. told me I was in one town and I was in another 30 miles away. I don't care about the Drone if it goes bye bye Ill buy another one. I just don't want it to take off and hit someone or something that's the only thing I worry about when flying even RC Planes. Drones can be replace even though Id hate to loose one I would really hate if someone got hurt because of it.

If you are using the GPS function in your phone, then there is the problem. The GPS function in phones is a very simple system and prone to getting crap positional fixes. But the GPS in the Phantom aircraft is a much higher quality receiver system and far less likely to get the position wrong.

Things like the hurricanes and other weather systems do not affect the GPS satellites, nothing is 'bombarding' them, because they do not receive any signals from the ground with the exception of control signals from US government control stations.

If you need a good GPS system to help you navigate in your business, then a dedicated high quality nav system is your best solution, forget the phone. Buy a high quality solution like Garmin, and you won't be sorry.
2017-9-7
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RonaldWill
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If you can afford a new drone, then buy a new one, if not I guess you can only buy an external GPS or attempt to repair it.
2017-9-7
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Geebax
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RonaldWill Posted at 2017-9-7 18:32
If you can afford a new drone, then buy a new one, if not I guess you can only buy an external GPS or attempt to repair it.

Did you actually read the OP's post? Your reply has no bearing on the issue.
2017-9-7
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RedHotPoker
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RonaldWill Posted at 2017-9-7 18:32
If you can afford a new drone, then buy a new one, if not I guess you can only buy an external GPS or attempt to repair it.

Where are you located, it might just have a bearing... Haha

Not sure which post you are referring to....


RedHotPoker
2017-9-7
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Betamace
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The mapping and directions in my Garvin were sometimes very untrustworthy. Once it had me drive around a city block 3 times until I gave up and stopped and asked someone for directions. Bad programming I'd say.

Then.....

2 days ago my P3S took an extraordinary long time to get satellite lock. It saw 8 sats but multiple times it switched between P-GPS and ATTI before it could set a home point.  And yesterday my X-380 that has both GPS and GLONASS drifted around in all directions like a drunk riding a unicycle.
Probably the recent solar storms are causing minor navigational issues. I'm not going to try to fly for a couple weeks as a result. Maybe by then I'll get caught up on work around the house.
2017-9-8
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ALABAMA
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Solar flare is going on now that is the biggest in a decade.  Just a thought
2017-9-8
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Daveb500
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There has been some intense solar flares in the last couple of days hitting the earth. This has resulted in very high KP values. Some radio signals have been knocked out, I guess this will also have effected your GPS, Its not advisable to fly with high KP values.
2017-9-8
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Genghis9
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Daveb500 Posted at 2017-9-8 07:39
There has been some intense solar flares in the last couple of days hitting the earth. This has resulted in very high KP values. Some radio signals have been knocked out, I guess this will also have effected your GPS, Its not advisable to fly with high KP values.

Spot on...it is most likely due to solar activity.
However, GPS are not fool proof either, although GPS module in Phantoms appear to be accurate and reliable as compared to a high end GPS Handheld.  I would never rely on a phone GPS to navigate with any expectation of precision.
2017-9-8
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MrRobert5823
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RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-9-7 19:10
Where are you located, it might just have a bearing... Haha

Not sure which post you are referring to....

I think he said Maryland...
2017-9-8
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MrRobert5823
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GEOMAGNETIC STORM SUBSIDING AGAIN: Geomagnetic activity is subsiding again following an unexpected second wave of severe (G4-class) geomagnetic storms mid-day on Sept. 8th. High-latitude sky watchers should remain alert for auroras, however, as the solar wind continues to blow faster than 700 km/s. Isolated periods of strong storming are possible in the hours ahead. Free: Aurora Alerts

The above post is located here....
http://spaceweather.com/
2017-9-8
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MrRobert5823
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More of the same...

CME IMPACT SPARKS AURORAS, STOPS TRAFFIC: The debris from Wednesday's monster X9-class solar flare reached Earth last night--and its impact was everything forecasters expected. A severe G4-class geomagnetic storm commenced, sparking auroras over Scandinavia so bright they actually stopped traffic."I was driving home when the CME hit," reports Jani Ylinampa of Rovaniemi, Finland. "It was such an amazing display, I really had to pull over and shoot some photos."
2017-9-8
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RedHotPoker
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MrRobert5823 Posted at 2017-9-8 12:29
I think he said Maryland...

Talking about Ronald? What thread was he referring to?



RedHotPoker
2017-9-8
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MrRobert5823
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Sorry... I was referring to EpicDoom... the one who started this chain....
2017-9-8
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Epicdoom
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Geebax Posted at 2017-9-7 17:33
If you are using the GPS function in your phone, then there is the problem. The GPS function in phones is a very simple system and prone to getting crap positional fixes. But the GPS in the Phantom aircraft is a much higher quality receiver system and far less likely to get the position wrong.

Things like the hurricanes and other weather systems do not affect the GPS satellites, nothing is 'bombarding' them, because they do not receive any signals from the ground with the exception of control signals from US government control stations.


I use GPS on my phone to fly don't you ? how are you flying under GPS if not but no I was saying my navigation gps for Driving is screwed up and therefor I don't trust it to fly by gps nothing wrong with my phone or the gps app I use it always worked flawless till this week. and yes I know about gps I was thinking government is using it for storm tracking and such right now same as they did 911 couldn't get gps signal then as well
2017-9-8
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Epicdoom
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RonaldWill Posted at 2017-9-7 18:32
If you can afford a new drone, then buy a new one, if not I guess you can only buy an external GPS or attempt to repair it.

phone is new S8+ I fly with my tablet Tab S3 but GPS signal is screwed up on my phone and wifes phone kids phone families phones so its not a phone issue
2017-9-8
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Epicdoom
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ALABAMA Posted at 2017-9-8 07:34
Solar flare is going on now that is the biggest in a decade.  Just a thought

that's the type answer I was looking for thank you Brother. I usually have no issues with GPS I have a lot of GPS devices for work hunting hiking and such they are all whacky right now
2017-9-8
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Geebax
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-8 16:36
I use GPS on my phone to fly don't you ? how are you flying under GPS if not but no I was saying my navigation gps for Driving is screwed up and therefor I don't trust it to fly by gps nothing wrong with my phone or the gps app I use it always worked flawless till this week. and yes I know about gps I was thinking government is using it for storm tracking and such right now same as they did 911 couldn't get gps signal then as well

No, you don't use the GPS on your phone to fly your Phantom, the GPS is built into the aircraft, and it uses that receiver for navigation, not the phone.. And the aircraft's GPS is far better quality than any phone GPS.

The only time the DJI system uses the GPS receiver in your phone is when you set the home point to the position of the RC unit, or activate the Follow Me function, and quite often it will get the location wrong. GPS systems in phones are crap.
2017-9-8
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Geebax
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-8 16:36
I use GPS on my phone to fly don't you ? how are you flying under GPS if not but no I was saying my navigation gps for Driving is screwed up and therefor I don't trust it to fly by gps nothing wrong with my phone or the gps app I use it always worked flawless till this week. and yes I know about gps I was thinking government is using it for storm tracking and such right now same as they did 911 couldn't get gps signal then as well

'and yes I know about gps I was thinking government is using it for storm tracking and such right now same as they did 911 couldn't get gps signal then as well'


The government does not 'use' the GPS system for anything. It has one and only one purpose, to provide navigational information to the US military and on a secondary basis to all citizens. It has nothing to do with storm tracking.
2017-9-8
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djiuser_EBSi910
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Recent massive solar flare causing radio and gps issues
2017-9-8
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Epicdoom
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Geebax Posted at 2017-9-8 16:43
No, you don't use the GPS on your phone to fly your Phantom, the GPS is built into the aircraft, and it uses that receiver for navigation, not the phone.. And the aircraft's GPS is far better quality than any phone GPS.

The only time the DJI system uses the GPS receiver in your phone is when you set the home point to the position of the RC unit, or activate the Follow Me function, and quite often it will get the location wrong. GPS systems in phones are crap.

ok now that's confusing you say the phone or tablet used doesn't have anything to do with the GPS on the AC then say it does to set the home point am I missing something here is that not using it maybe its me I had a few shots of JD none of this has anything to do though with not wanting to fly because GPS is whacked out right now regardless of how its getting stuff done. Government does in fact have the ability to move satellites around to lock down positioning for assets on the ground this is what I'm referring to lots of government agencies are active right now with the storms and fires in the US. I know weather and GPS satellites are not the same however GPS satellites are now involved in helping with storm tracking. all I'm saying is with everyday use of the system by the whole world and added use with weather and ground assets deployed to help with all that's going on is it possible its a strain on the system.
2017-9-8
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Geebax
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-8 18:01
ok now that's confusing you say the phone or tablet used doesn't have anything to do with the GPS on the AC then say it does to set the home point am I missing something here is that not using it maybe its me I had a few shots of JD none of this has anything to do though with not wanting to fly because GPS is whacked out right now regardless of how its getting stuff done. Government does in fact have the ability to move satellites around to lock down positioning for assets on the ground this is what I'm referring to lots of government agencies are active right now with the storms and fires in the US. I know weather and GPS satellites are not the same however GPS satellites are now involved in helping with storm tracking. all I'm saying is with everyday use of the system by the whole world and added use with weather and ground assets deployed to help with all that's going on is it possible its a strain on the system.

All right then, try this. You can fly your Phantom without a phone or tablet attached, and you can also fly it with a tablet that does not have a GPS fitted to it. This happens with iPads that are WiFi only, they have no GPS in them at all. When flying, the aircraft itself has a GPS receiver in it, and it is a very good one at that.  It is the aircraft's GPS that is used for almost every positioning purpose.

The only time the app uses the GPS in a phone or tablet is to set the position of the home point tro the location of the RC unit. Or for the follow me function, which by the way does not work very well due to the crappy performance of phone GPS receivers.

The GPS satellites are not moved around at all. They have a very limited amount of fuel on board them for adjusting their position, and when it runs out of that fuel, the satellites are then useless. For that reason alone, they are left where they are placed. In any eventr, moving them around is not necessary, they are carefully parked in orbits spaced around the globe to provide positional information.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say they are 'whacked out' at the moment, because my GPS receiver is nailing down my position to an accuracy of about 1.5 Metres right now and has not changed. As for putting a strain on the system, no, that is not happening either. GPS satellites simply transmit a constant signal to the GPS receivers all around the world, there is no such thing as a 'strain' on them. Also, you cannot send information to them, they do not receive.
2017-9-8
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Genghis9
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MrRobert5823 Posted at 2017-9-8 12:36
More of the same...

CME IMPACT SPARKS AURORAS, STOPS TRAFFIC: The debris from Wednesday's monster X9-class solar flare reached Earth last night--and its impact was everything forecasters expected. A severe G4-class geomagnetic storm commenced, sparking auroras over Scandinavia so bright they actually stopped traffic."I was driving home when the CME hit," reports Jani Ylinampa of Rovaniemi, Finland. "It was such an amazing display, I really had to pull over and shoot some photos."

Nice...are you going to share those pics with us?
I've seen some amazing lights from 30 to 40,000 feet up, they can be awesome and very cool to see using NVGs too.
2017-9-8
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Genghis9
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-8 16:36
I use GPS on my phone to fly don't you ? how are you flying under GPS if not but no I was saying my navigation gps for Driving is screwed up and therefor I don't trust it to fly by gps nothing wrong with my phone or the gps app I use it always worked flawless till this week. and yes I know about gps I was thinking government is using it for storm tracking and such right now same as they did 911 couldn't get gps signal then as well

Well interesting that you note that...there is something called SCATANA, it has to do with our ability to control airspace and Navaids.  In part, this also means controlling the GPS system as you alluded too.  However, there is no reason nor purpose to restrict GPS data for storm ops, if anything the opposite would be true in that case.
It is much more likely that solar activity is causing your problems with the system.
2017-9-8
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Genghis9
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-8 18:01
ok now that's confusing you say the phone or tablet used doesn't have anything to do with the GPS on the AC then say it does to set the home point am I missing something here is that not using it maybe its me I had a few shots of JD none of this has anything to do though with not wanting to fly because GPS is whacked out right now regardless of how its getting stuff done. Government does in fact have the ability to move satellites around to lock down positioning for assets on the ground this is what I'm referring to lots of government agencies are active right now with the storms and fires in the US. I know weather and GPS satellites are not the same however GPS satellites are now involved in helping with storm tracking. all I'm saying is with everyday use of the system by the whole world and added use with weather and ground assets deployed to help with all that's going on is it possible its a strain on the system.

Nope...in simple terms, there is no reason to move the sats for storm ops.  Matter of fact, moving sats is a costly endeavor as it requires use of maneuvering fuel, eventually that fuel is depleted and assuming no other problems occur first with a bird that is what requires it to be replaced.  To explain further is complicated and classified.  
Further these birds are beacons, at least from a civilian use standpoint.  They cannot be overloaded simply receiving a birds signal for positional determination.
2017-9-8
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Epicdoom
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Geebax Posted at 2017-9-8 19:47
All right then, try this. You can fly your Phantom without a phone or tablet attached, and you can also fly it with a tablet that does not have a GPS fitted to it. This happens with iPads that are WiFi only, they have no GPS in them at all. When flying, the aircraft itself has a GPS receiver in it, and it is a very good one at that.  It is the aircraft's GPS that is used for almost every positioning purpose.

The only time the app uses the GPS in a phone or tablet is to set the position of the home point tro the location of the RC unit. Or for the follow me function, which by the way does not work very well due to the crappy performance of phone GPS receivers.

I'm happy your GPS is permitting you flight I'm not willing to chance it right now I don't care if the onboard system is built by NASA.  I'm not getting accurate signals on my GPS devices right now including my Garmin Montana 680T that's not a cheap cell phone unit BTW.

I also think your putting to much stock in the device used on these drones for something I've never landed even close to my take off spot in fact I launched from my front walk on the first flight ever and the drone landed in my rear yard. that's definitely not even as close to accurate as my Magellan Explorist 350H that puts me within 3 feet of my Tree stand and camera locations for Hunting.  I now never let RTH land my craft I cancel it when the bird is close to me. I'm satisfied that solar flare activity is why I'm having issues right now and until I can get reliable GPS reception on my cheap A@# Galaxy S8+ I'll keep my drone grounded. I'm not willing to risk hurting someone or damaging someone's property. end of conversation
2017-9-9
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Geebax
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-9 03:48
I'm happy your GPS is permitting you flight I'm not willing to chance it right now I don't care if the onboard system is built by NASA.  I'm not getting accurate signals on my GPS devices right now including my Garmin Montana 680T that's not a cheap cell phone unit BTW.

I also think your putting to much stock in the device used on these drones for something I've never landed even close to my take off spot in fact I launched from my front walk on the first flight ever and the drone landed in my rear yard. that's definitely not even as close to accurate as my Magellan Explorist 350H that puts me within 3 feet of my Tree stand and camera locations for Hunting.  I now never let RTH land my craft I cancel it when the bird is close to me. I'm satisfied that solar flare activity is why I'm having issues right now and until I can get reliable GPS reception on my cheap A@# Galaxy S8+ I'll keep my drone grounded. I'm not willing to risk hurting someone or damaging someone's property. end of conversation

OK, I won't waste your time with further chat. Just to say that if my aircraft is not having any positional problems, then that more or less rules out solar flare activity. Even though I am on the other side of the world, that activity would also affect us over here.
2017-9-9
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Genghis9
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Geebax Posted at 2017-9-9 15:17
OK, I won't waste your time with further chat. Just to say that if my aircraft is not having any positional problems, then that more or less rules out solar flare activity. Even though I am on the other side of the world, that activity would also affect us over here.

Not necessarily, a lot depends on the size, strength, and duration of the flare.  Then where did the flare initiate on the sun, then taking in to account the earth's orbit, rotation, and the path of the flare which determines its overall impact to earth.  Which all means it is not only possible but highly likely that flare activity will cause more disruption on one side of the earth while having little to no impact on the other.  You can verify this by reviewing space weather information, and yes space weather is a thing.
2017-9-9
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Geebax
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-9 21:01
Not necessarily, a lot depends on the size, strength, and duration of the flare.  Then where did the flare initiate on the sun, then taking in to account the earth's orbit, rotation, and the path of the flare which determines its overall impact to earth.  Which all means it is not only possible but highly likely that flare activity will cause more disruption on one side of the earth while have little to no impact on the other.  You can verify this by reviewing space weather information, and yes space weather is a thing.

As the earth rotates with respect to the sun, the effect of solar flares is felt all over the world, albiet with less impact at the poles.
2017-9-9
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Mark The Droner
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Geebax Posted at 2017-9-8 19:47
The GPS satellites are not moved around at all. They have a very limited amount of fuel on board them for adjusting their position, and when it runs out of that fuel, the satellites are then useless. For that reason alone, they are left where they are placed. In any eventr, moving them around is not necessary, they are carefully parked in orbits spaced around the globe to provide positional information.

https://www.google.com/search?q= ... eid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
2017-9-10
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Genghis9
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Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-10 04:47
https://www.google.com/search?q= ... eid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm not sure what or where you are going with that link from what I saw of it, but if your point was to say the birds move.  Okay tongue in cheek here, yes they move about an established orbit, i.e. they are not in a geosynchronous orbit.  However, the key difference that Geebax and I were referring too and what was being stated was what one would call making adjustments to the sats orbit i.e. moving it in its established orbit.  You only need to move a GPS bird mostly to avoid space junk, there is a lot of it, or possibly to try and lesson flare damage.  Other than that it's rare and unnecessary to move these birds for basic GPS use, there are some military reasons to do so but don't apply here for this.  As noted earlier moving a bird is costly, as it uses precious onboard fuel.  If a bird runs out of fuel it pretty much means it has to be replaced.
2017-9-10
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Epicdoom
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good news is My GPS is working on my phone and handheld devices again. so I got some fly time today. I have never had a single issue with my Phones GPS and the app I use for it. I use it all day every day for many, many years. It always puts me on a customers door step every time. I work all over the state servicing heavy equipment. I rely on my GPS to get me where I'm going and its always been right except for the past week and during the week following 911, that had me worried about flying.  I don't ever want to fly unless I know I've done everything I can to ensure a safe flight. I've run most of my life under that way of thinking and its worked out well for me.
2017-9-10
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Genghis9
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-10 17:54
good news is My GPS is working on my phone and handheld devices again. so I got some fly time today. I have never had a single issue with my Phones GPS and the app I use for it. I use it all day every day for many, many years. It always puts me on a customers door step every time. I work all over the state servicing heavy equipment. I rely on my GPS to get me where I'm going and its always been right except for the past week and during the week following 911, that had me worried about flying.  I don't ever want to fly unless I know I've done everything I can to ensure a safe flight. I've run most of my life under that way of thinking and its worked out well for me.

Glad to hear it...
Next time you experience problems, check space weather, it is likely due to solar activity.  This past flare was a biggy as far as flares go.  I understand that you rely on this tech for your biz, but I would always be prepared to use a backup system i.e. paper map.  You never know when the military can enact SCATANA procedures.  In light of the Norks acting up, it is possible that they could attempt to use the GPS constellation for targeting purposes.  ...and there is always the terrorist threat these days.

Ref: http://www.spaceweather.com/
2017-9-10
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Epicdoom
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-10 22:15
Glad to hear it...
Next time you experience problems, check space weather, it is likely due to solar activity.  This past flare was a biggy as far as flares go.  I understand that you rely on this tech for your biz, but I would always be prepared to use a backup system i.e. paper map.  You never know when the military can enact SCATANA procedures.  In light of the Norks acting up, it is possible that they could attempt to use the GPS constellation for targeting purposes.  ...and there is always the terrorist threat these days.

Thank you Brother. I've studies the solar flare issues In the past and It never hit me that this could have been the issue. Not saying it was for sure but its a highly possible factor. I kept all my paper maps lol I'm an old man, Prior Military as it seems you possibly are as well, so I know the value of paper in an electronic age. Backup and backup for the Backup. I was actually a little late to the electronic age, I resisted the system for quite some time till it became a must have.
2017-9-11
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Genghis9
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-11 14:48
Thank you Brother. I've studies the solar flare issues In the past and It never hit me that this could have been the issue. Not saying it was for sure but its a highly possible factor. I kept all my paper maps lol I'm an old man, Prior Military as it seems you possibly are as well, so I know the value of paper in an electronic age. Backup and backup for the Backup. I was actually a little late to the electronic age, I resisted the system for quite some time till it became a must have.


I was not too far ahead of you on that...I just didn't have a choice in many cases.
Yes, the military did teach us both to have a back up to the back up
Unfortunately, our world is more and more dependent on electronics, and as such we are more and more susceptible to flares or EMPs in general...it is our Achilles heel IMO
2017-9-11
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Epicdoom
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Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-11 14:53
I was not too far ahead of you on that...I just didn't have a choice in many cases.
Yes, the military did teach us both to have a back up to the back up
Unfortunately, our world is more and more dependent on electronics, and as such we are more and more susceptible to flares or EMPs in general...it is our Achilles heel IMO

Agree 100% I've come to love the technology it certainly makes life easier however it has also created a world of laziness. I work on electronics in my job as all the operating systems are electronic controlled mechanical systems. Diagnostics is as simple as hooking up a laptop and running the program. I learned C+ and electronics systems engineering to understand what was actually going on in the systems that helps me to troubleshoot the actual electronics knowing what the circuits are designed to do helps in troubleshooting bad components in the system. I'm one of the few who will replace a 3 cent resistor as apposed to a $3000 logic board. Even with all that I see no use for electronically controlling a mechanical system other then ramping up the Purchase price and repair bill, at least in my industry where a man has to manually use controls to implement the systems every move.  The biggest issue is no one has to use they're brains anymore to figure stuff out electronics can diagnose electronics and with a few keystrokes download a fix in many cases. Pretty cool stuff, but makes for lazy minded People.  
2017-9-11
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Genghis9
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Flight distance : 961 ft
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Epicdoom Posted at 2017-9-11 15:25
Agree 100% I've come to love the technology it certainly makes life easier however it has also created a world of laziness. I work on electronics in my job as all the operating systems are electronic controlled mechanical systems. Diagnostics is as simple as hooking up a laptop and running the program. I learned C+ and electronics systems engineering to understand what was actually going on in the systems that helps me to troubleshoot the actual electronics knowing what the circuits are designed to do helps in troubleshooting bad components in the system. I'm one of the few who will replace a 3 cent resistor as apposed to a $3000 logic board. Even with all that I see no use for electronically controlling a mechanical system other then ramping up the Purchase price and repair bill, at least in my industry where a man has to manually use controls to implement the systems every move.  The biggest issue is no one has to use they're brains anymore to figure stuff out electronics can diagnose electronics and with a few keystrokes download a fix in many cases. Pretty cool stuff, but makes for lazy minded People.

Concur
2017-9-11
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