Feeling a bit frustrated with the wording of the laws in the USA and also the not so clear cut boundaries of NFZ's.
The delima I'm dealing with is the entire USA has already banned UAS flights over National Parks(understandable). To make things worse the good ole state of Indiana where I live is one of the states that has banned UAS operations at all State PARKS. The problem here is the state webpage says "State Parks". But,,,,We also have several "State Recreation" areas. Notice the word "Park" is absent as it's for "Recreation". There's no mention of State Recreation areas in the state rules although such areas resemble state parks in every way. So according to verbage I would assume state recreation areas are not subject to UAS restrictions unless it's inside a National Forest declared by Congress. This is not clearcut so you would have to assume and risk punishment.

Another issue is there are many State and National parks that lie inside a National Forest. Remember that National Forests are not restrictive to UAS unless it a National Forest declared by Congress. So when viewing maps, the entire forest is shaded in green but the boundaries for the state park that lies inside these forests are not depicted. So how in the world do you determine if you are legally in the National Forest but not over a Park area when it's all shaded in green? For an example just lookup the Great Smoky Mountain National Park in Google Maps and see that although the Smoky Mountain park is listed, it is also connected to a huge swath of Nantahala National Forest according to the color green on the map.
How in the world can you decipher all this on the maps?

They have a lot of work to do on the laws and it's a darn shame that because of a few bad apples we can't shoot in some of the best places for photos, our national parks.

Any insights and thoughts on this?

First, usually these laws are written to explicitly cover all the areas that they do not want you to operate in.  So, my interpretation is if it does not explicitly say you cannot fly then you are OK to do so.

Now as to mapped boundaries, I'm not sure what to tell you.  Assuming for a moment you can fly inside a restricted area, then you are good.  You can take off from that area and even overfly the restricted park or forest as long as you land back on the approved land.  However, if you crash or land on the prohibited land you are subject to having your gear confiscated, or at least your UAV.  
The best recommendation I can provide you with respect to borders is to find the maps as you laid out, and then use the locally produced maps of the parks and places in question to interpret their boundaries.  I'd also talk to the local rangers/park management to see what they say albeit the reliability is not likely to be great in that department.  Also the county assessors office should have maps that clearly mark the boundaries too, so that might prove useful.  Otherwise, I personally am at a loss.
Hope some of this helps.

Well, like any other situation, the only way to get things changed is through political action.  The laws are as they are because people who should care will not go out and vote.  That's the thing about a democracy that could be taken advantage of.  I, for example, find it to be insane that I have to pay money to the state in order to NOT use one of my vehicles.  To not use it, I have to put it on a non-op status.  I can only do that when the registration on that particular vehicle is due.  If I forget, the Franchise Tax board will take the money for the  registration out of my bank account, along with the fines for forgetting to pay.  They will not, however, send me a current registration sticker.  I still have to go pay more for that.  And it will not be valid unless I also pay for insurance.  On a vehicle I do not use.

Kneepuck Posted at 2017-9-28 18:58
Well, like any other situation, the only way to get things changed is through political action.  The laws are as they are because people who should care will not go out and vote.  That's the thing about a democracy that could be taken advantage of.  I, for example, find it to be insane that I have to pay money to the state in order to NOT use one of my vehicles.  To not use it, I have to put it on a non-op status.  I can only do that when the registration on that particular vehicle is due.  If I forget, the Franchise Tax board will take the money for the  registration out of my bank account, along with the fines for forgetting to pay.  They will not, however, send me a current registration sticker.  I still have to go pay more for that.  And it will not be valid unless I also pay for insurance.  On a vehicle I do not use.

That is insane and sounds like a cash cow for the local government.
I work for an insurance company and it's insane how many accidents I review and one party did not have insurance. Here they go get insurance for one month when the plates and registration are due and then never make another payment until the following year, just to get their plates renewed.
The problem persists because the penalties aren't stiff enough in my opinion.  

Kneepuck Posted at 2017-9-28 18:58
Well, like any other situation, the only way to get things changed is through political action.  The laws are as they are because people who should care will not go out and vote.  That's the thing about a democracy that could be taken advantage of.  I, for example, find it to be insane that I have to pay money to the state in order to NOT use one of my vehicles.  To not use it, I have to put it on a non-op status.  I can only do that when the registration on that particular vehicle is due.  If I forget, the Franchise Tax board will take the money for the  registration out of my bank account, along with the fines for forgetting to pay.  They will not, however, send me a current registration sticker.  I still have to go pay more for that.  And it will not be valid unless I also pay for insurance.  On a vehicle I do not use.

I find that ridiculous...how do you all stand for that...the more the government gets the more it wants

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-28 18:57
First, usually these laws are written to explicitly cover all the areas that they do not want you to operate in.  So, my interpretation is if it does not explicitly say you cannot fly then you are OK to do so.

Now as to mapped boundaries, I'm not sure what to tell you.  Assuming for a moment you can fly inside a restricted area, then you are good.  You can take off from that area and even overfly the restricted park or forest as long as you land back on the approved land.  However, if you crash or land on the prohibited land you are subject to having your gear confiscated, or at least your UAV.  

Thanks, I never thought of the county assessor maps. Taking into consideration that the widespread popularity of UAS is fairly new I guess we should expect it's going to take the government awhile to fully comprehend the challenges involved with UAS regulation. Also because these laws are fairly new it's going to take some time for these maps to be modified to depict these areas. But we don't even know if the government has even considered this issue. My fear is if they have to spend too much time or money on it then they will just include the National Forests to the restricted zones too.

Also on another note: I would assume most rangers and law enforcement at most of these places aren't keen to the laws either.  For now, It would be worth a shot to print out the laws from the .gov website as well as the maps that show the area you plan on flying that is labeled "Recreation area" or "National Forest". This way you could pull them out and explain your case to the ranger. If you can present your case well enough he may just 2nd guess his knowledge of the laws and not confiscate your bird. It would also be wise to not be buzzing people, animals or anything else of gross nuisance that caught their attention in the 1st place.

E.T._Drone_Home Posted at 2017-9-28 19:27
Thanks, I never thought of the county assessor maps. Taking into consideration that the widespread popularity of UAS is fairly new I guess we should expect it's going to take the government awhile to fully comprehend the challenges involved with UAS regulation. Also because these laws are fairly new it's going to take some time for these maps to be modified to depict these areas. But we don't even know if the government has even considered this issue. My fear is if they have to spend too much time or money on it then they will just include the National Forests to the restricted zones too.

I'm hoping that they come up with some reasonable rule sets, blanket restrictions never really work

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-28 19:40
I'm hoping that they come up with some reasonable rule sets, blanket restrictions never really work

'......blanket restrictions never really work'

Hmm. Actually they do. I would suggest in most cases the relevant authorities don't want any form of drones flying around and therefore make the laws as rubbery as they can. The first time those laws are challenged, they will be found to be illegal, but that's only if they get challenged, and in most cases they will get away with handing out fines until someone with deep enough pockets comes along to challenge the laws.

E.T._Drone_Home Posted at 2017-9-28 19:34
Also on another note: I would assume most rangers and law enforcement at most of these places aren't keen to the laws either.  For now, It would be worth a shot to print out the laws from the .gov website as well as the maps that show the area you plan on flying that is labeled "Recreation area" or "National Forest". This way you could pull them out and explain your case to the ranger. If you can present your case well enough he may just 2nd guess his knowledge of the laws and not confiscate your bird. It would also be wise to not be buzzing people, animals or anything else of gross nuisance that caught their attention in the 1st place.

I would not automatically assume all LE knows little.
The other day I chatted up a Sheriff Deputy about county laws relating to drones.  He was very knowledgeable.  As it turns out he personally owned a P4P and he worked on the departments UAV team.  They use them for LE and SAR.  I found the conversation informative and he was very engaged and knowledgeable.
So, the moral of the story is never assume and sometimes asking folks can prove very useful.

Geebax Posted at 2017-9-28 19:47
'......blanket restrictions never really work'

Hmm. Actually they do. I would suggest in most cases the relevant authorities don't want any form of drones flying around and therefore make the laws as rubbery as they can. The first time those laws are challenged, they will be found to be illegal, but that's only if they get challenged, and in most cases they will get away with handing out fines until someone with deep enough pockets comes along to challenge the laws.

Maybe so...but that is kinda to my point...it may not happen forth with but it will

"Enjoy while you can" will be my advice. Play fair, don't abuse common rules of safe flying, don't break laws too evidently. Sooner than later loosely articulated restrictions for flying above particular places will be reinforced, signs posted, park rangers and officers will be trained, fines will be issued and executed. It's inevitable.
Every summer I travel by spectacular Icefield Parkway in Canadian Rockies, aside Niagara Falls most popular tourist destination. Herds of visitors from around the world stops at several parking spots to wow and photograph this iconic scenery. I've never seen any drone there until this year. Banff National Park rangers are authorized to ground any attempts and to inform violators about new law, ticket-lessly by far, as I've been told when spotted with pants down. It's going to be very messy next year when thousands arrive there with Mavics and Sparks found under Xmas tree ...

E.T._Drone_Home Posted at 2017-9-28 19:34
Also on another note: I would assume most rangers and law enforcement at most of these places aren't keen to the laws either.  For now, It would be worth a shot to print out the laws from the .gov website as well as the maps that show the area you plan on flying that is labeled "Recreation area" or "National Forest". This way you could pull them out and explain your case to the ranger. If you can present your case well enough he may just 2nd guess his knowledge of the laws and not confiscate your bird. It would also be wise to not be buzzing people, animals or anything else of gross nuisance that caught their attention in the 1st place.

Aloha E.T.,

     There is also the FAA app B4UFly.  It is free and gets updated regularly.  It will pinpoint your location, if your device has GPS, and let you know if you are in a No-Fly Zone.  You can also explore intended flight areas with the app.  Do be aware, though, that the app my initially tell you that an area is a No-Fly Zone and then when the page gets refreshed or updated, it is not a No-Fly Zone.  It pays to wait.

     As Genghis noted, the airspace is public, even over State and Federal Parks.  You are not allowed to take-off and land inside park boundaries.  But over flights are legal unless the FAA has it regulated.

     No matter what you do, do not fly over large groups of people and avoid people in general.  You are in a wilderness, no need to see people, they are everywhere!

     The best suggestion so far is to call ahead to the main office of the park or forest, etc.  Sometimes you are allowed to actually fly in a Federal Park because, ultimately, the decision is the Park Superintendent's.  If you have a Pt. 107 Certificate, you can sometimes work out an agreement with the park management to fly, if the park gets some of the video or another arrangement.  They can also just give you permission to fly in your request area.

     Research whatever you do.  That is where the opportunities are.

Aloha and Drone On!

     

Dobmatt Posted at 2017-9-28 20:18
"Enjoy while you can" will be my advice. Play fair, don't abuse common rules of safe flying, don't break laws too evidently. Sooner than later loosely articulated restrictions for flying above particular places will be reinforced, signs posted, park rangers and officers will be trained, fines will be issued and executed. It's inevitable.

Indeed.

The same thing here in Georgia, You can cant fly your drone in the state parks, they only have one approved park where you can fly your drone its about 3hrs drive from here. Nope, I will continue to fly in the wide open rural areas for now.

I know with Part 107 there are zones/air spaces where you are not allowed to fly "without permission" There are actual test questions that address flying in class whatever airspace and in a wildlife refuge for example.  As a part 107, the correct answer is you need ATC permission for the airspace and permission of the controlling agency of the wildlife refuge.  I wonder....can a hobbyist fly in these areas "with permission".  Might not hurt to ask.

jdjeff Posted at 2017-9-29 03:49
I know with Part 107 there are zones/air spaces where you are not allowed to fly "without permission" There are actual test questions that address flying in class whatever airspace and in a wildlife refuge for example.  As a part 107, the correct answer is you need ATC permission for the airspace and permission of the controlling agency of the wildlife refuge.  I wonder....can a hobbyist fly in these areas "with permission".  Might not hurt to ask.

Any aerial vehicle can fly in any airspace IF they get FAA clearance.  The control/managing agency approval has more to do with landing and taking off within that area.  As noted previous you can over fly a wildlife refuge, but must adhere to minimum altitude restrictions, but you could still be considered harassing the "wildlife" and for federal (or state if prohibited) you can not take off or land on that land.  A federal game warden does not have jurisdiction of the airspace but can attempt to cite you for wildlife harassment.  Overflight altitudes are usually 500, 1000, or more feet, since UAVs are restricted to 400 that effectively bans you from overflight, and they know it.  Even if P107 you might get FAA approval for such an area but good luck getting area authority to do so, but it's not impossible either.

jdjeff Posted at 2017-9-29 03:49
I know with Part 107 there are zones/air spaces where you are not allowed to fly "without permission" There are actual test questions that address flying in class whatever airspace and in a wildlife refuge for example.  As a part 107, the correct answer is you need ATC permission for the airspace and permission of the controlling agency of the wildlife refuge.  I wonder....can a hobbyist fly in these areas "with permission".  Might not hurt to ask.

I don't know much about US general and state specific rules, but here in Canada amateur UAV operation within parks or wildlife refuges is strictly prohibited. Just to exercise the issue, I've investigated the procedure to get a permit from Parks Canada provincial body. The plan was to film landscape and water habitat of Elk Island National Park near Edmonton, famous bison sanctuary. However, 3-page application form I've been kindly provided with reflects the scenario for huge filming crew and tons of equipment, catering, portable toilets, exact time and date of filming, client (s) names etc. No way to obtain a single permit for one man, independent and not professional drone operation, period.

Honestly, this is the only way to protect wildlife sanctuaries from evidently incoming abuse. I'm expecting such restrictions applied soon to some waters, frequently used by resident or migrating cetaceans (whales, dolphins etc.).

Dobmatt Posted at 2017-9-29 09:42
I don't know much about US general and state specific rules, but here in Canada amateur UAV operation within parks or wildlife refuges is strictly prohibited. Just to exercise the issue, I've investigated the procedure to get a permit from Parks Canada provincial body. The plan was to film landscape and water habitat of Elk Island National Park near Edmonton, famous bison sanctuary. However, 3-page application form I've been kindly provided with reflects the scenario for huge filming crew and tons of equipment, catering, portable toilets, exact time and date of filming, client (s) names etc. No way to obtain a single permit for one man, independent and not professional drone operation, period.

Honestly, this is the only way to protect wildlife sanctuaries from evidently incoming abuse. I'm expecting such restrictions applied soon to some waters, frequently used by resident or migrating cetaceans (whales, dolphins etc.).

The bureaucracy you lay out is mind boggling...and humorous too
Doesn't someone realize that a one or two person filming op has far less impact than what they seem to be thinking but yet geared toward allowing it to happen.
Simply because of the economy of scale, it is far more likely that film operations are going to move towards this very type of operation.  It will save money and reduce costs yet still provide HD video.  Actually I can't believe that that is not already occurring.

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-28 21:18
Aloha E.T.,

     There is also the FAA app B4UFly.  It is free and gets updated regularly.  It will pinpoint your location, if your device has GPS, and let you know if you are in a No-Fly Zone.  You can also explore intended flight areas with the app.  Do be aware, though, that the app my initially tell you that an area is a No-Fly Zone and then when the page gets refreshed or updated, it is not a No-Fly Zone.  It pays to wait.

I'm not so sure about that. From what I've read on the national parks .gov page is even the park itself has to apply for permits to fly legit missions at their own park. I don't think fly overs from adjacent property is permitted either.

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-29 02:40
Indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oHJae5qW8

How did you ever sneak that in?  

E.T._Drone_Home Posted at 2017-9-29 11:22
I'm not so sure about that. From what I've read on the national parks .gov page is even the park itself has to apply for permits to fly legit missions at their own park. I don't think fly overs from adjacent property is permitted either.

It's not that it's permitted or not permitted.  It's that there is no law against it.  Kinda like there's no law saying we had/have to register.  There wasn't and there isn't - not now, not last year, not the year before, etc.  

Mark The Droner Posted at 2017-9-29 12:44
It's not that it's permitted or not permitted.  It's that there is no law against it.  Kinda like there's no law saying we had/have to register.  There wasn't and there isn't - not now, not last year, not the year before, etc.

That's true, but it'll change. It's just a matter of time. Note that 2 years ago nobody was able to predict the rise of this phenomenon far beyond and above the level of elite professionals, nobody was considering Spark or Mavic class drones to be so affordable and reliable as they're now, nobody would ever think about using these machines as enhanced selfie sticks. Now, imagine every 10th of Yellowstone Park visitors carrying these toys in their backpacks ... Scary, isn't?

Everyone in the USA should be using the FAA B4UFLY app

https://www.faa.gov/uas/where_to_fly/b4ufly/

At least you have some evidence when the park ranger comes at you with a big stick

E.T._Drone_Home Posted at 2017-9-29 11:22
I'm not so sure about that. From what I've read on the national parks .gov page is even the park itself has to apply for permits to fly legit missions at their own park. I don't think fly overs from adjacent property is permitted either.

Aloha E.T.,

     The Fly-Over is not permitted by the National Park unless the Superintendent authorizes it.  The Fly-Over is permitted by the FAA, unless they have changed the regulations and now have a regulation against it.  So far I have not seen such a regulation.  

     If you find one please post it here.  It would be very difficult since they would have to declare an airspace jurisdiction and class, similar to airports and military areas.  What levels are what?  So passenger jets on flight routes would not be able to fly over a National Park.  That would be very hard to do without any press catching on.

     Airspace is for all citizens to use except under special circumstances that require regulation.  BTW, I got the Superintendent answer straight from the National Parks.  It is up to the superintendent.  It may have been on a parks web site or a drone web site directing me to a parks site.  That may have changed to.

     The point is do your research, check with the Park Superintendent Office, or the actual Superintendent, or other body as applicable per issue.  Maybe you have done your research and the situation has changed since I checked last year.  We can always use an update once in a while.  But we need the regulation so we can do our own research.  A regulation is one thing, getting a proper interpretation is another thing.

     Remember how we all had to register out Phantoms because of the new regulation.  Now we do not have to register our Phantoms unless we have a Pt. 107 Certificate?  Things change.  The Constitution is the ruing document, not the FAA regulations.

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-29 18:13
Aloha E.T.,

     The Fly-Over is not permitted by the National Park unless the Superintendent authorizes it.  The Fly-Over is permitted by the FAA, unless they have changed the regulations and now have a regulation against it.  So far I have not seen such a regulation.  

Amen...Preach On!

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-29 18:33
Amen...Preach On!

Aloha Genghis,

     Well, I would but half the time we do not know if we are coming or going.  In Hawai'i we call it, "You stay coming or you stay going!"

     That also applies to which way is up!  Our motto should be, "Do your research and land like a cat!"

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-30 02:38
Aloha Genghis,

     Well, I would but half the time we do not know if we are coming or going.  In Hawai'i we call it, "You stay coming or you stay going!"

Eh, you finally made it here to the trough.... Cool
Sorry about the two day delay...

Oh well, atleast you have your forum connectivity back.


Hope you are enjoying a wonderful weekend. ;-)
& in paradise too. Ah, some people have it rough. Ha


RedHotPoker

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-30 02:38
Aloha Genghis,

     Well, I would but half the time we do not know if we are coming or going.  In Hawai'i we call it, "You stay coming or you stay going!"

I like that second one, I'm gonna use it too
Thanks

RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-9-30 02:57
Eh, you finally made it here to the trough.... Cool
Sorry about the two day delay...

Aloha RedHot,

     Honest, we suffer over here!  The latest research even shows that sleeping in cold air is good for health and I think it says it makes you smarter to.  But if it makes you smarter, it might make you come to Hawai'i in the winter time where it is warmer.  Oh, yeah, they call that tourism!

Aloha and Drone On!

I just talked to a Park Ranger today. What she told me is just what Genghis said you can fly over the park but you can not take off or land of they see it over the park they are not going to chase it down but you might want to make sure you can get there and back if they get it it's theirs and you get a fine. Now I live in Pa I'm sure that's everywhere.

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-30 14:41
Aloha RedHot,

     Honest, we suffer over here!  The latest research even shows that sleeping in cold air is good for health and I think it says it makes you smarter to.  But if it makes you smarter, it might make you come to Hawai'i in the winter time where it is warmer.  Oh, yeah, they call that tourism!

Well for a lower intellect, I'd say in your case you must have a really good air conditioner.

...and yes us colder clime folks can take warmer places in small doses before we start going full on stupid

darrell2 Posted at 2017-9-30 15:22
I just talked to a Park Ranger today. What she told me is just what Genghis said you can fly over the park but you can not take off or land of they see it over the park they are not going to chase it down but you might want to make sure you can get there and back if they get it it's theirs and you get a fine. Now I live in Pa I'm sure that's everywhere.

All meaning...you roll the dice if you do fly over said places...I'm not sure I would, but that's just me

Genghis9 Posted at 2017-9-30 19:56
Well for a lower intellect, I'd say in your case you must have a really good air conditioner.

...and yes us colder clime folks can take warmer places in small doses before we start going full on stupid

Aloha Genghis,

     Oh, so those tourists that wear the really outrageous shirts and dresses have been here too long.  That explains it!

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-30 20:55
Aloha Genghis,

     Oh, so those tourists that wear the really outrageous shirts and dresses have been here too long.  That explains it!

yes...exactly!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-9-30 14:41
Aloha RedHot,

     Honest, we suffer over here!  The latest research even shows that sleeping in cold air is good for health and I think it says it makes you smarter to.  But if it makes you smarter, it might make you come to Hawai'i in the winter time where it is warmer.  Oh, yeah, they call that tourism!

I feel your pain, it hurts me deeply. Ha ha, yes cool nights are best rest scenarios.,
I would love to camp on the mountain near your house, when I get there. Haha

Have tent, will travel.

We had an ISSIS terror attack in Edmonton Alberta last night.
A police officer directing traffic after an Eskimos football game was hit by a speeding car, then it rammed the police cruiser. The suspected attacker then jumped out of his car, and stabbed the officer several times before running away. Then a few hours later another incident, and the guy was being chased by the police,  he drove his stolen van into a crowd of people before finally getting arrested. Wow.
All the main streets down town & on Jasper Avenue were blocked off tonight, on my way home, and
I didn't find out what exactly was going on, until getting home and seeing it on tv breaking news reports.


RedHotPoker

RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-10-1 03:43
I feel your pain, it hurts me deeply. Ha ha, yes cool nights are best rest scenarios.,
I would love to camp on the mountain near your house, when I get there. Haha

RHP I'll pitch next to ya...

Heard about the attacks, very unfortunate...evil is everywhere and there is only one way to wipe out evil but mankind has never been able to bring itself to that end.  We lack the will, the passion, the love for good, and the faith to God...at least not nearly enough of us to make it happen.

RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-10-1 03:43
I feel your pain, it hurts me deeply. Ha ha, yes cool nights are best rest scenarios.,
I would love to camp on the mountain near your house, when I get there. Haha

Aloha RedHot,

     Wow, sadly, this individual was able to get away with two attacks.  Sorry but any large population is a target in today's world.

     Since my recent home robbery, we are super vigilant and may have discovered a drug house in our neighborhood.  Now remember this is in the jungle.  So, how do guys go up to a house in the jungle, buy drugs, spend a few minutes to a half hour with the pusher and then leave without attracting attention.  Hmm.  Dude, we are in a jungle!  Go figgah!

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetacean Posted at 2017-10-1 22:50
Aloha RedHot,

     Wow, sadly, this individual was able to get away with two attacks.  Sorry but any large population is a target in today's world.

Las Vegas!? Humbled & Tears of sorrow... I Will be sad for many days...

Just hard to believe there is a Loving God.... Where is he?


RedHotPoker

RedHotPoker Posted at 2017-10-2 10:50
Las Vegas!? Humbled & Tears of sorrow... I Will be sad for many days...

Just hard to believe there is a Loving God.... Where is he?

He is receiving his flock, having fallen from the hands of evil...