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EU Survey: for whom is work the Android-Spark conn. on the 5.8Ghz
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Arcicorsa
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-5 11:40
Ok but it is exactly the same when using iPad Pro .

Hallmark007, I appreciate the fact that you help with the newcomers and you help  analyze the flight records. However, I have noticed that in some situations you are answering just how you like it. I do not say that your P4 does not work with your Android device correctly, but here https://forum.dji.com/thread-116761-1-1.html report that CrystalSky does not work with Spark on 5.8Ghz... I would find other posts where you describe this problem... Interesting that you suddenly say that everything is fine..
By the way, the statistics in this thread speak clearly.
2017-12-5
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hallmark007
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2017-12-5 11:41
Hallmark007, I appreciate the fact that you help with the newcomers and you help  analyze the flight records. However, I have noticed that in some situations you are answering just how you like it. I do not say that your P4 does not work with your Android device correctly, but here https://forum.dji.com/thread-116761-1-1.html report that CrystalSky does not work with Spark on 5.8Ghz... I would find other posts where you describe this problem... Interesting that you suddenly say that everything is fine..
By the way, the statistics in this thread speak clearly.


I don’t know where your going with this, you obviously have great knowledge regarding radio etc, I don’t , but have no problem learning, I have just posted results regarding testing on P4Pro and was looking for answers as to why it works on P4Pro and not on spark.

All my posts regarding spark have been regarding being not able to connect to 2,4ghz when using CS , I don’t have any problem connecting to 5.8ghz, nor have I posted that I do.

I also have not pointed out that everything is fine.
2017-12-5
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hallmark007
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2017-12-5 11:41
Hallmark007, I appreciate the fact that you help with the newcomers and you help  analyze the flight records. However, I have noticed that in some situations you are answering just how you like it. I do not say that your P4 does not work with your Android device correctly, but here https://forum.dji.com/thread-116761-1-1.html report that CrystalSky does not work with Spark on 5.8Ghz... I would find other posts where you describe this problem... Interesting that you suddenly say that everything is fine..
By the way, the statistics in this thread speak clearly.


That thread was also before last update long before .
2017-12-5
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lumidair
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Hey @DJI ! What will you do with this problem? You have to give us a feed back...
2017-12-5
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Arcicorsa
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Dji is clear that for most people in the EU it is impossible to connect to RC or AC to 5.8Ghz! Can you express yourself??? This problem exists as evidenced by this survey!! Your silence and ignorance clearly shows you how you value users in the EU!!!
2017-12-6
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hallmark007
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2017-12-6 03:49
Dji is clear that for most people in the EU it is impossible to connect to RC or AC to 5.8Ghz! Can you express yourself??? This problem exists as evidenced by this survey!! Your silence and ignorance clearly shows you how you value users in the EU!!!

This problem exists as evidenced by this survey!! Your silence and ignorance clearly shows you how you value users in the EU!!!

Ok I presume you are targeting me in this post, although you have not directly replied to me.

If you take your survey and strip it down as we would with all surveys/polls.

1/ 850 people viewed your survey
2/ 40 people took part , less than 5%
3/ 43% have no complaint/ 57% having problems
4/ 95% don’t care to vote
5/ if we take it that android/iOS share mobile use in Europe and just as many Europeans or CE users on this forum
6/ So approx 425 of forum users from CE have visited your survey
7/ does it not seem strange that as you say most android users in EU and participating on this forum would be having problems and we know by the amount of forum members that visited your survey only 27 report having problems with RC / aircraft 5.8ghz connection.
You must also remember that this forum is more likely to have users come here to complain, and if you don’t complain because you might have nothing to complain about, your accused by people like you of being ignorant, but I’m afraid it’s your ignorance that leads you to think that your survey should not take into account all those who have visited your survey and not voted should not be considered as users that may not be having problems .
2017-12-6
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Arcicorsa
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-6 05:58
This problem exists as evidenced by this survey!! Your silence and ignorance clearly shows you how you value users in the EU!!!

Ok I presume you are targeting me in this post, although you have not directly replied to me.

No, my last post (no.45) was not addressed to you .. It was addressed to Dji moderators, which is not you.

Your attitudes are known and you do not need to further comment on this thread.
2017-12-6
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hallmark007
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2017-12-6 06:35
No, my last post (no.45) was not addressed to you .. It was addressed to Dji moderators, which is not you.

Your attitudes are known and you do not need to further comment on this thread.

Well my apologies, but as you can see your survey is not all it’s cracked up to be.
2017-12-6
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Arcicorsa
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hallmark007 Posted at 2017-12-6 05:58
This problem exists as evidenced by this survey!! Your silence and ignorance clearly shows you how you value users in the EU!!!

Ok I presume you are targeting me in this post, although you have not directly replied to me.

The number of thread views is not judged by the unique user's. The problem is that if you are not logged in, every thread visit counts the read on the counter. For example, if I log off, I will go into the thread and I 1000x refresh pages, the counter add thousand views.
2017-12-6
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djiuser_Kf4iPA3
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I don't understand what this argument is about.
In several European countries, including the Czech Republic where Arcicorsa lives, using 5.8GHz WiFi is illegal. That's a fact. Technically stupid (ETSI shortsightedness), but still a fact.
As a result, flying a drone on 5.8G Wifi is breaking the law, or at least the local radio regulations. That's a fact. If DJI sells equipment that operates in 5.8G WiFi in those countries, they are breaking the law as well, or at least local radio regulations.
But even if we looked the other way on the law - technically that's an issue, because phones being sold in those countries don't support 5.8G WiFi, or their manufacturers and importers would be breaking the law, or at least local radio regulations. That includes models on DJI's compatibility list. So now, even when looking aside on the legal issue, it becomes a technical issue in those countries.

And when operating with a remote control and without OTG, that becomes critical. because when the RC uses 2.4 to communicate with the AC, apparently (from Arcicorsa's tests) it doesn't have the capability to use the 2.4G spectrum for WiFi connection to the phone. So it must use 5.8G - but that's illegal, and in many cases technically impossible because of lack of support in the phones (for legal reasons).

I hope I summarized it right.

2017-12-7
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Arcicorsa
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I'm still waiting for an official response from Dji... Most people in the EU can not use the quad to 2.4Ghz !!!! Again I ask how do you deal with it? So far, it looks like you are ignoring customers in the EU who have paid a lot of money for the quad to go fly 200m....

I really do not understand why you will not solve the problem. I have found that the heart of WiFi in the RC driver is the QCA6006 (comunication RC - Android) and AR9342 (comunication RC - quad) communication chipset ... Both the two CPUs can handle in a whole 5Ghz band. Then I do not understand why you will not fix FW?! It's not a HW problem but just FW...

Two answers are available:

1. Dji programmers are absolutely incompetent
2. Dji does not want people in the EU to fly further than 300m

What is the True Dji?
2017-12-11
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massipos
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Maybe it can be just a commercial choice: sure dji developers ar not incompetent, but they follow manager orders. You want to fly further than 300m, well you have to buy Mavic or Inspire plane.
Mavic and Inspire they have been sold for more than an year, if dji manager want, they could have use same transmission tecnology inside the Spark. Mavic's transmission tecnology work great at far distance and it seems that don't break EU law. What else could be the reason, to take a choice, that is due to dissatisfaction among customer?
Spark i'ts just a selfie plane, sure an expensive selfie plane,  and for this is advertised.
2017-12-11
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lumidair
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massipos Posted at 2017-12-11 08:53
Maybe it can be just a commercial choice: sure dji developers ar not incompetent, but they follow manager orders. You want to fly further than 300m, well you have to buy Mavic or Inspire plane.
Mavic and Inspire they have been sold for more than an year, if dji manager want, they could have use same transmission tecnology inside the Spark. Mavic's transmission tecnology work great at far distance and it seems that don't break EU law. What else could be the reason, to take a choice, that is due to dissatisfaction among customer?
Spark i'ts just a selfie plane, sure an expensive selfie plane,  and for this is advertised.

Your advice is very poor and no good. DJI declare range 2 000 m, not 300m.
2017-12-11
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massipos
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You are in right lumidair: mostly people can read that amazing distance in many Spark's specific description. But also many people miss to read the [3] simbol reported in every single spot where Spark specific distange range where described (they know that issue, cause they want it have to be). Please do not get me wrong, i'm with you.
2017-12-11
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Arcicorsa
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massipos Posted at 2017-12-11 08:53
Maybe it can be just a commercial choice: sure dji developers ar not incompetent, but they follow manager orders. You want to fly further than 300m, well you have to buy Mavic or Inspire plane.
Mavic and Inspire they have been sold for more than an year, if dji manager want, they could have use same transmission tecnology inside the Spark. Mavic's transmission tecnology work great at far distance and it seems that don't break EU law. What else could be the reason, to take a choice, that is due to dissatisfaction among customer?
Spark i'ts just a selfie plane, sure an expensive selfie plane,  and for this is advertised.

To some extent, I agree with you. The theory is clear, Dji opened Pandora's box and did not think about the consequences of his actions (drop in sales of other products). However, this is not a problem of customers. Dji should face this!

I am interested in the product specification as a customer. If I read that Spark in the EU will fly up to 500m it's OK if it does. Unfortunately, this is not true because more than half of the people in the EU are unable to achieve of this distance, and nothing changes that the law says clearly VLOS (in my country this is controversial, it is possible to use the so-called Spotter which will follow and optically follow the quad, then I can fly like 10Km and I do not break the law) .. So even this Dji can not argue. Spark specifications are clearly given on Dji's website, but the reality is different. This is the problem.

Dji should follow one of two remedies for this situation:

1. Customize product specifications to match the situation we now have and offer customers money-back because they were fooled by false advertising

2. Repair the shortcomings so that the quad corresponds to the specifications of the Dji

I will also use this message to ask the moderators again: What will you do about it? Your silence is striking and clearly shows your attitude to the problem..
2017-12-11
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TudorD
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An easy solution can be for DJI to retract the version 4.1.18 from Google store, temporarily revert to 4.1.15 and provide to each Spark owner an OTG cable.

Until their marvelous developers (none of them, by the way, didn’t find very curios the fact that the QCA6006X can be used and for some other 5Ghz frequencies) will find a way to provide a firmware for the controller that can activate the Wi-Fi channels specific for each country/region. If this is not possible al EU RC must be replaced in due time.
2017-12-12
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djiuser_Kf4iPA3
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Arcicorsa, don't you have some consumer protection agency in the Czech Republic? I'm sure you do.
Maybe the only thing that will wake them up is a formal complaint to that authority (and the same goes for any other Euro country that has this issue).
2017-12-12
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antons
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DJI, the same problem for me, Honor 7 has problem with 5G8 channels in Slovakia. Only OTG and v4.1.14 working correctly.

Also in Slovakia is illegal use WiFi channels above 5725 MHz, national table: http://www.vus.sk/ntfs/
General license for 5GHz WiFi: https://www.teleoff.gov.sk/data/files/25911.pdf

I can legally use frequency up to 5850 MHz, with SSID of my hamradio calsign, but  >99,9% spark operators don't have it!
2017-12-15
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djiuser_Kf4iPA3
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So the conclusion is that by marketing the fly more combo with no OTG support to consumers in most European countries, DJI is doing one of two things: either they are breaking the law (if the broadcast at 5.8G), or they are fooling consumers - and I'm trying to understate here - if they don't broadcast at 5.8G, because the combo cannot work.
Is that the right conclusion to sum it all up?

By the way, that would be true for Israel as well. In Israel the 5.8 sub-range is not allowed AT ALL, for ANY civilian app, not even for SRDs.
2017-12-19
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Arcicorsa
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Dji, I'm asking again! What do you do for EU users? It is very sad that more than 50% of users have a problem with 5Ghz WiFi in the EU and Dji has not yet spoken to them and does nothing for these people .. You seem that 800USD is little money to get at least a clear answer if the problem will be solved ???

By specifying the components used in Spark and RC, it is clear that there is no problem on the HW side (QCA6006 (communication RC - Android) and AR9342 (communication RC - quad) communication chipset). Again, why do not you fix it? Overwriting the WiFi chipset configuration is a matter of a few hours.. Where is the Problem?
2018-1-2
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Bluedot
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2017-12-11 03:26
I'm still waiting for an official response from Dji... Most people in the EU can not use the quad to 2.4Ghz !!!! Again I ask how do you deal with it? So far, it looks like you are ignoring customers in the EU who have paid a lot of money for the quad to go fly 200m....

I really do not understand why you will not solve the problem. I have found that the heart of WiFi in the RC driver is the QCA6006 (comunication RC - Android) and AR9342 (comunication RC - quad) communication chipset ... Both the two CPUs can handle in a whole 5Ghz band. Then I do not understand why you will not fix FW?! It's not a HW problem but just FW...

Sorry, folks. Can someone please explain again, why iOS smart devices can handle the switch between 2,4 and 5,8 GHz without any problems whereas some (?) Android cannot? From my layman’s perspective this discussion - blaming DJI - seems strange when everything is working fine as intended. BTW, this is the reason why I am flying without any cable connections between my iPad mini and the RC here in Germany. Your discussion reads, as if DJI prevents the different usage of a certain frequency? So should you not rather blame Google/Android? I don’t want to upset anybody, just a honest question.
Thanks
2018-1-3
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Arcicorsa
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Bluedot Posted at 2018-1-3 00:27
Sorry, folks. Can someone please explain again, why iOS smart devices can handle the switch between 2,4 and 5,8 GHz without any problems whereas some (?) Android cannot? From my layman’s perspective this discussion - blaming DJI - seems strange when everything is working fine as intended. BTW, this is the reason why I am flying without any cable connections between my iPad mini and the RC here in Germany. Your discussion reads, as if DJI prevents the different usage of a certain frequency? So should you not rather blame Google/Android? I don’t want to upset anybody, just a honest question.
Thanks

Please read this thread thoroughly, then this: https://forum.dji.com/thread-120954-1-1.html ... You will find that Apple in the EU is working in FCC mode..
2018-1-3
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Raploc
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Bluedot Posted at 2018-1-3 00:27
Sorry, folks. Can someone please explain again, why iOS smart devices can handle the switch between 2,4 and 5,8 GHz without any problems whereas some (?) Android cannot? From my layman’s perspective this discussion - blaming DJI - seems strange when everything is working fine as intended. BTW, this is the reason why I am flying without any cable connections between my iPad mini and the RC here in Germany. Your discussion reads, as if DJI prevents the different usage of a certain frequency? So should you not rather blame Google/Android? I don’t want to upset anybody, just a honest question.
Thanks

Oh it's pretty simple. Lets take the Netherlands as an example. We here decided that we would adhere to the ETSI (European Telecommunications Standards Institute)  standard. Please note that almost every EU country does this to my knowledge. This means that the following 5Ghz frequencies are available.

    5150 MHz – 5250 MHz (UNII-1)
    5250 MHz – 5350 MHz (UNII-2)
    5470 MHz – 5725 MHz (UNII-2-Ext)

5ghz.JPG

Now what Android does is that it restricts the Android device to only use these frequencies here. Apple doesn't do this. Normally this isn't a problem because a router here in the Netherlands (and set to the Netherlands) will never broadcast outside these frequencies/bands. So what happens if you use or set a device/router to an FCC region, only Apple devices can connect. Is this legal to do? No here in the Netherlands this is not legal.


Edit:added picture
2018-1-3
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Bluedot
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2018-1-3 00:40
Please read this thread thoroughly, then this: https://forum.dji.com/thread-120954-1-1.html ... You will find that Apple in the EU is working in FCC mode..

Thank you for the link, I think I now understand the situation. For me, the user TudorT summed it up nicely:

“Let me explain:
- on Android on Wi-Fi link if we use 2.4 to connect to the remote the remote uses 5.8 (non-European bands) to connect to Spark
- Android bans utilization of non-European 5.8 bands so we cannot see the remote
- on iPhone or iPad, we can use both bands to connect to the remote because Apple has a bad implementation of the Wi-Fi protocol allowing permanently all bands in 5.8
- the only fully legal use of a remote with Spark in Europe was by OTG and forcing a 2.4 connection remote-Spark and that use was deliberately banned by DJI.”

Good luck!
2018-1-3
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Raploc
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Bluedot Posted at 2018-1-3 00:55
Thank you for the link, I think I now understand the situation. For me, the user TudorT summed it up nicely:

“Let me explain:

It's the same with FPV (DJI) goggles, you can sell and buy them but you're not allowed to use them outside.
2018-1-3
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S.J
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JJBspark Posted at 2017-11-29 12:09
Who from the 38% "I live in EU and I can connect to Spark WiFi 5.8Ghz" uses Android??
If yes, wich mobile device?

samsung Note 5 does it perfectly without any problems..
2018-1-3
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Mario_b
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@Raploc: Great Post. Absolut correct your Explanation - it is the same here in Germany.

So main problem is:
a) IOS works because ios accept WIFI Connections on Frequency which is not allowed in Europe
b) DJI use not the Frequency which is allowed in the 5GHz Band in Europe

2018-1-3
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TudorD
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S.J Posted at 2018-1-3 04:16
samsung Note 5 does it perfectly without any problems..

Not all Note 5 are the same... I have two a 9208 and a 920i and both cannot see those bands.
2018-1-3
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TudorD
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Mario_b Posted at 2018-1-3 05:22
@Raploc: Great Post. Absolut correct your Explanation - it is the same here in Germany.

So main problem is:

Not IOS is the problem, and even not even the Wi-Fi implementation on some Apple products (Ipad Pro has the samw problems as Android devices)... DJI is forcing those devices to use non-EU frequencies.
2018-1-3
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Raploc
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Mario_b Posted at 2018-1-3 05:22
@Raploc: Great Post. Absolut correct your Explanation - it is the same here in Germany.

So main problem is:

C) How did DJI get a CE certification on the 5Ghz band?
2018-1-3
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Mario_b
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Raploc, well as i understand the Frequenz Tables, it is not free for WIFI but for usage: http://www.radio-electronics.com ... ncies-bandwidth.php

so if i understand correctly the Frequencys could be used for some low power applications. Well for Amateur Radio there is the Range from 5,65–5,85 GHz which is allowed to use with 75 W PEP.  Well this means i should use FCC Hack as i am allowed to use 5,65 - 5,85 GHz with 75 Watt PEP ;-)
Well Double checked, yes: 5,65 - 5,85 GHz is allowed for ISM (Industrial, Scientific and Medical Band) Secondary it is for Amateur Radio.  So no WIFI allowed as this is not ISM or Amateur Radio Usage.
2018-1-3
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Arcicorsa
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Mario_b Posted at 2018-1-3 06:23
Raploc, well as i understand the Frequenz Tables, it is not free for WIFI but for usage: http://www.radio-electronics.com ... ncies-bandwidth.php

so if i understand correctly the Frequencys could be used for some low power applications. Well for Amateur Radio there is the Range from 5,65–5,85 GHz which is allowed to use with 75 W PEP.  Well this means i should use FCC Hack as i am allowed to use 5,65 - 5,85 GHz with 75 Watt PEP ;-)

You say nonsense ... WiFi 802.11n (Spark) is clearly specified in ETSI EN 301 893 V2.0.7 and must be in line with it. I also assume you do not own HAM (Amater Radio) license ...
2018-1-3
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hallmark007
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Raploc Posted at 2018-1-3 06:00
C) How did DJI get a CE certification on the 5Ghz band?

I fully agree with you in Europe we are supposed to be protected by CE, it’s almost unthinkable that they would allow something like this to pass through the net. It would also be strange for a company like dji to try to get a product through the CE network illegally, particularly with the cost they would surely have to pay for recalling all drones from their biggest market and we must remember P4Pro works using the same bandwidths.
It’s good to see the other side of this good job.
2018-1-3
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Mario_b
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2018-1-3 06:30
You say nonsense ... WiFi 802.11n (Spark) is clearly specified in ETSI EN 301 893 V2.0.7 and must be in line with it. I also assume you do not own HAM (Amater Radio) license ...

Well "nonsense" isn't a good starting point for a Discussion. Anyway, ETSI decribes it only, fequencys depends on the Country. That is exactly why routers give you other Channels when you set it to other Countrys.

For Europe, the Usage of these Frequencys for Wireless Connections is limited in the 5 GHZ Band for "inhouse usage" not allowed outside. While some of the Channels in US is allowed to use outside. There is an extending (as i already wrote) 802.11h which allows the usage 5725-5850 MHz (Channel 149 to 165) outside with 25 mW in Europe. Some channels allowed in the US are not allowed in Europe.

By the Way: that's not an German thing, this is regulary in EU. And the good thing is it allows also 5470–5725 MHz to use outside with 1 Watt if the Application support DFS and TPC to avoid collision with Weather Radar. But it seems DJI didn't use that Frequencys with the Possibility to use 1 Watt.
2018-1-3
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Raploc
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-3 06:45
I fully agree with you in Europe we are supposed to be protected by CE, it’s almost unthinkable that they would allow something like this to pass through the net. It would also be strange for a company like dji to try to get a product through the CE network illegally, particularly with the cost they would surely have to pay for recalling all drones from their biggest market and we must remember P4Pro works using the same bandwidths.
It’s good to see the other side of this good job.

"Manufacturers play a crucial role in ensuring that products placed on the extended Single Market of the EEA are safe. They are responsible for checking that their products meet EU safety, health, and environmental protection requirements. It is the manufacturer’s responsibility to carry out the conformity assessment, set up the technical file, issue the EU declaration of conformity, and affix the CE marking to a product. Only then can this product be traded on the EEA market."

In other words I can use a CE label as long as I'm able to prove that I'm complaint if I'm getting audited.
2018-1-3
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Arcicorsa
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Mario_b Posted at 2018-1-3 06:46
Well "nonsense" isn't a good starting point for a Discussion. Anyway, ETSI decribes it only, fequencys depends on the Country. That is exactly why routers give you other Channels when you set it to other Countrys.

For Europe, the Usage of these Frequencys for Wireless Connections is limited in the 5 GHZ Band for "inhouse usage" not allowed outside. While some of the Channels in US is allowed to use outside. There is an extending (as i already wrote) 802.11h which allows the usage 5725-5850 MHz (Channel 149 to 165) outside with 25 mW in Europe. Some channels allowed in the US are not allowed in Europe.

OK, the starting point for you: Show me the ETSI document that supports your statement. Still speaking, you not have the only proof in the form of an ETSI document. Until you confirm your words with valid documents, I take your remarks as irrelevant.

I have all of my claims backed up by valid documents, unlike you.
2018-1-3
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Arcicorsa
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-3 06:45
I fully agree with you in Europe we are supposed to be protected by CE, it’s almost unthinkable that they would allow something like this to pass through the net. It would also be strange for a company like dji to try to get a product through the CE network illegally, particularly with the cost they would surely have to pay for recalling all drones from their biggest market and we must remember P4Pro works using the same bandwidths.
It’s good to see the other side of this good job.

We'll see. I have just handed over all the documents to the local authorities, and I am calling for the investigation to begin.
2018-1-3
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Raploc
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Mario_b Posted at 2018-1-3 06:46
Well "nonsense" isn't a good starting point for a Discussion. Anyway, ETSI decribes it only, fequencys depends on the Country. That is exactly why routers give you other Channels when you set it to other Countrys.

For Europe, the Usage of these Frequencys for Wireless Connections is limited in the 5 GHZ Band for "inhouse usage" not allowed outside. While some of the Channels in US is allowed to use outside. There is an extending (as i already wrote) 802.11h which allows the usage 5725-5850 MHz (Channel 149 to 165) outside with 25 mW in Europe. Some channels allowed in the US are not allowed in Europe.

You're right lets keep this civil.

About the 1 W. "This is the maximum average e.i.r.p., hereby the e.i.r.p. means a burst transmission with the highest setting of the output power of the transmitter if a form of Transmitter Power Control is implemented." This is a rough translation of the Dutch Telecoms Agency on these frequencies.  So it seems you are not allowed to continually send at max?

DJI does have a challenge if they implement EU channels, are they going to use the DFS channels or not?
2018-1-3
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Arcicorsa
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Raploc Posted at 2018-1-3 07:11
You're right lets keep this civil.

About the 1 W. "This is the maximum average e.i.r.p., hereby the e.i.r.p. means a burst transmission with the highest setting of the output power of the transmitter if a form of Transmitter Power Control is implemented." This is a rough translation of the Dutch Telecoms Agency on these frequencies.  So it seems you are not allowed to continually send at max?

I agre with you. Detail is here https://www.tuv-sud.com/home-com ... frequency-selection
2018-1-3
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hallmark007
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Ireland
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Arcicorsa Posted at 2018-1-3 07:10
We'll see. I have just handed over all the documents to the local authorities, and I am calling for the investigation to begin.

I think for that is probably the best way to go , it will be interesting to know the outcome.
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