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Why ask for 25fps?
4641 26 2017-12-19
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OneMatt
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I get that 25fps is the European PAL TV standard. But in the digital age, those standards are all but dead.

-Mobile devices all over the world are the same. They don't follow NTSC/PAL/SECAM, and videos of any frame rate play on those.

-Digital HDTV hardware is the same all over the world. If it uses an HDMI plug, it can usually accept and play 24/25/30/50/60hz input, natively. They may be configurd to accept PAL/NTSC over the analog input, but the internal processing simply converts the signal. And you aren't using the analog input anyway.

-BluRay content DOES NOT use NTSC/PAL standards. All commecial content on these discs are 1080p, usually at 24fps or 30fps, and only resamples on the analong output (because a digital TV can display 30fps natively).

-Internet video can be posted in any frame rate, and it will play on any internet device (and surprise: this is what the Spark was advertised for)

If you are burning your video content to DVD, or VHS (LOL!!!), then at that point the quality is so degraded that I really wonder why you care about a few FPS anyway....

I can understand why some might want higher FPS (50/60), for slow-mo purposes, but asking for slower frame rates seems silly. If you want a "cinematic" effect, use an ND filter to slow the shutter, and then slow it to 24/25fps in post.

I'm open to being enlightened, but those who say "I live in (random European city) and we use 25FPS and deman action now!" are asking for something that functionally, doesnt exist anyway.
2017-12-19
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krisp-spark
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The main idea why people are asking for 25 fps is electricity frequency, which is 50Hz. When you have a device recording at 25fps in 50Hz environment, everything seems normal because the light wavelength fits with frame rate. However, when you have device recording at 30fps in 50Hz environment and you have any light (either street lamp or even a light in your home) in the video, you will get flicker effect and lines running across the video. For example look at iPhone, these devices were designed in California, which is 60Hz environment, hence they record at 30/60 fps with no other option to change these settings. When you record a video anywhere else than USA, you get the annoying flicker effect, same as Spark.
2017-12-19
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krisp-spark
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Look at these two graphs. As a common knowledge, everyone knows that we have alternating voltage, which means that as soon as you turn on any light connected to the electricity, it will actually keep switching on and off very quickly (at given refresh rate 50 or 60Hz depending on location). Human eye can't see this, but camera will pick this up. If the camera's frame rate and electricity refresh rate are not equal, it will cause flicker.

The first graph shows every frame starting at the same electricity refresh rate (which could be equal to 25fps and 50Hz environment). This is what you want as a filmmaker to avoid flicker:


The second graph indicates different frame rate and environment, for instance 30fps and 50Hz. As you can see, each new frame starts at different time in relation to electricity refresh frequency:
2017-12-19
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krisp-spark
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And I forgot to mention shutter speed. To avoid flicker you also have to use 1/50 or 1/100 etc in 50Hz, 1/60, 1/120 etc in 60Hz.
2017-12-19
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Raz Taz
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Can we know which professional cameras you use? Two tips for you: 1) search in Google the technical specifications of the main professional cameras on the market, for example Arri, Sony, Red, Black Magic and come back to explain how they all give the opportunity to operate with 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 fps. 2) search in Google Play or on Apple Store an app called RED Tools, maybe later you will be clearer the use of fps and shutter
2017-12-19
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OneMatt
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krisp-spark Posted at 2017-12-19 13:52
And I forgot to mention shutter speed. To avoid flicker you also have to use 1/50 or 1/100 etc in 50Hz, 1/60, 1/120 etc in 60Hz.

Flicker makes sense, I forgot about that. I appreciate the response!
2017-12-19
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OneMatt
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Raz Taz Posted at 2017-12-19 15:40
Can we know which professional cameras you use? Two tips for you: 1) search in Google the technical specifications of the main professional cameras on the market, for example Arri, Sony, Red, Black Magic and come back to explain how they all give the opportunity to operate with 24, 25, 30, 50, 60 fps. 2) search in Google Play or on Apple Store an app called RED Tools, maybe later you will be clearer the use of fps and shutter

Are you really asking why a $30,000+ camera can do more than a $500 flying smartphone? Because that is a really, really terrible comparison.
2017-12-19
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S-e-ven
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look at the flicker on this video:

2017-12-19
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Montfrooij
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One more thing to add to the discussion: if you happen to own some other camera that is stuck in 25fps / 50fps mode (Panasonic has the habit of releasing 'PAL' versions and 'NTSC' versions of the same model) you will have a hard time combining the two in one edit.
Either you must speed the 25fps footage up, or slow the 30fps footage down.
Both have unwanted effects.
2017-12-19
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krisp-spark
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Here is another example, (even though he is shooting 100fps and 120fps, but for our purpose it is the same as 25fps and 30fps).
https://youtu.be/KHQLWalXl40
2017-12-20
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Montfrooij
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And here are two of examples of myself.

Flickering:



Dropped frames:

2017-12-20
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krisp-spark
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Montfrooij Posted at 2017-12-20 02:00
And here are two of examples of myself.

Flickering:

These are awesome examples!
Regarding the second video - PremierePro and other editing programs have option to "interpret footage" (from 30fps to 25fps). If you do that and THEN render final video at 25fps, the result is pretty good. PremierePro can also calculate missing frames in case you will go from 25 to 30.
But as you are probably guessing, it's never gonna be as good as native 25fps shot on camera and 25fps rendered.
2017-12-20
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Montfrooij
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krisp-spark Posted at 2017-12-20 02:12
These are awesome examples!
Regarding the second video - PremierePro and other editing programs have option to "interpret footage" (from 30fps to 25fps). If you do that and THEN render final video at 25fps, the result is pretty good. PremierePro can also calculate missing frames in case you will go from 25 to 30.
But as you are probably guessing, it's never gonna be as good as native 25fps shot on camera and 25fps rendered.

Yes, I tried that also. Not too happy with the results.
I installed PP just for that

I believe final cut also has some option to smooth the dropped frames.
Since I'm not on mac, I cant test that.

But still, something that is not there is hard to interpolate.
2017-12-20
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Raz Taz
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OneMatt Posted at 2017-12-19 18:31
Are you really asking why a $30,000+ camera can do more than a $500 flying smartphone? Because that is a really, really terrible comparison.

All the cameras on the market, also the cheapers prosumers, have the possibility to use 25, 50. 30, 60 fps. Not just the most expensive ones.
Even all DJI drones and even the stabilized Osmo camera have this option, only with Spark is not possible.
One last thing: I did not know that smartphones had become a reference for video standards, I thought they were used to make phone calls
2017-12-20
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A CW
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With the Mavic you can set the Hz to 50 or 60 separately of NTSC / PAL - recording video in artificial light in the UK using 30p in NTSC with 50hz selected removes that flicker effect.
2017-12-20
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Raz Taz
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A CW Posted at 2017-12-20 05:16
With the Mavic you can set the Hz to 50 or 60 separately of NTSC / PAL - recording video in artificial light in the UK using 30p in NTSC with 50hz selected removes that flicker effect.

WHAT???????????????????????
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A CW
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Raz Taz Posted at 2017-12-20 05:24
WHAT???????????????????????

Yes, perhaps they should add this setting to the Spark.
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Raz Taz
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A CW Posted at 2017-12-20 05:26
Yes, perhaps they should add this setting to the Spark.

I think you are a bit confused
2017-12-20
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A CW
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Raz Taz Posted at 2017-12-20 05:43
I think you are a bit confused

WHAT?????????????????? REALLY??????????????? I don't think so. Let me explain so there is no confusion on your part... On the Mavic drone you have the option to set PAL or NTSC and these settings effect the frame rates that the camera will record. Now, if you live in a PAL area, such as the UK, you would ordinarily set the camera to PAL and this will prevent the flicker effect ones gets when recording in artificial light such as street lights and indoor lights when it is dark outside. On the Mavic, you have the option to change the camera under 'anti-flicker' to either auto, 50Hz or 60Hz and thus can record in NTSC in a PAL area with higher frame rates without the image suffering from the flicker effects of NTSC-60Hz in a PAL area by selecting NTSC-50Hz. My point is that the 'anti flicker' option would be a nice feature to have on the Spark. Is that clear enough?
2017-12-20
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OneMatt
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Raz Taz Posted at 2017-12-20 03:24
All the cameras on the market, also the cheapers prosumers, have the possibility to use 25, 50. 30, 60 fps. Not just the most expensive ones.
Even all DJI drones and even the stabilized Osmo camera have this option, only with Spark is not possible.
One last thing: I did not know that smartphones had become a reference for video standards, I thought they were used to make phone calls

Your comparison is still invalid. The Spark isnt Pro, not even Prosumer, and has never pretended to be as such. I think if you are in need of these features, a Mavic is better for you.

The sensor in the Spark is indeed a smartphone sensor. And if you didnt realize that smartphones are becoming a reference for video, I'd like to tell you about a device called the iPhone....
2017-12-20
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Raz Taz
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OneMatt Posted at 2017-12-20 09:09
Your comparison is still invalid. The Spark isnt Pro, not even Prosumer, and has never pretended to be as such. I think if you are in need of these features, a Mavic is better for you.

The sensor in the Spark is indeed a smartphone sensor. And if you didnt realize that smartphones are becoming a reference for video, I'd like to tell you about a device called the iPhone....

I used the iPhone since the first model, now I have the iphone x, I work as a professional cameraman for over 35 years and I've always used the Iphone as a phone or a little more, maybe I missed something, please enlighten me, let me understand how a phone can become a reference for the video.
I understand that you use the Spark to play with selfies and gestures, but there are also those who use it in a professional manner and not just to play, this for various reasons that I'm not to explain because it would be too complicated to understand for who thinks that the Iphone is a reference for the video. I also understand your enthusiasm for the Iphone since it is most likely the only camera you've used but I think it's definitely excessive to consider it more than it is, a phone
2017-12-20
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OneMatt
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Raz Taz Posted at 2017-12-20 09:56
I used the iPhone since the first model, now I have the iphone x, I work as a professional cameraman for over 35 years and I've always used the Iphone as a phone or a little more, maybe I missed something, please enlighten me, let me understand how a phone can become a reference for the video.
I understand that you use the Spark to play with selfies and gestures, but there are also those who use it in a professional manner and not just to play, this for various reasons that I'm not to explain because it would be too complicated to understand for who thinks that the Iphone is a reference for the video. I also understand your enthusiasm for the Iphone since it is most likely the only camera you've used but I think it's definitely excessive to consider it more than it is, a phone

If you are a "professional" and moaning about the limitations of a selfie drone (as advertised), then you are the problem, not the drone.
2017-12-20
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Montfrooij
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Ok, maybe you divert from the original question.
These forums are not the best place to let your emotions take over.

Please keep on topic.

I think it has been made clear why some part of the world would like the 25fps option for Spark.
Even if they are not a pro.
But the other part of the world does not need it and would rather see Spark improve in other ways.
So if you are on the PAL part of the world, I think you are out of luck.
As one of the admins stated in one of the other 10.000 threads about this omission 'DJI for now has no plans on adding 25fps support'
2017-12-20
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Raz Taz
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OneMatt Posted at 2017-12-20 10:38
If you are a "professional" and moaning about the limitations of a selfie drone (as advertised), then you are the problem, not the drone.

hey genius I'm still waiting to know why the iPhone is a reference for the video.
Whit your last post is obvius that you are a troll or you are an employee of Dji
2017-12-20
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A CW
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WHAT???????? Hahaha - well put OneMatt!
2017-12-20
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pixelmixture
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OneMatt Posted at 2017-12-20 10:38
If you are a "professional" and moaning about the limitations of a selfie drone (as advertised), then you are the problem, not the drone.

woooooow ... i didn't realize that 25fps was a PRO feature ...

iphone: i have the option
gopro: i have the option
every single camera that i can buy : i have the option

osmo mobile / osmo / osmo + / osmo raw ( from consumer to prosumer ) : i have the focking option

in fact i'm not able to mix night shots of my spark and my osmo mobile ....
2017-12-21
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OneMatt
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pixelmixture Posted at 2017-12-21 14:07
woooooow ... i didn't realize that 25fps was a PRO feature ...

iphone: i have the option

As stated in an earlier post, 25fps, for the reason of anti-flicker in 50hz electrical environments makes sense. I admit I missed that. That "pro" comment was on Mr. Arri Flex Red Epic moaning his Spark can't do the same things.
2017-12-23
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