David_ Posted at 2018-1-3 19:05
This is really simple. DJI is taking its problems (i.e. the FAA and inept drone pilots) and pushing those problems onto you, the customer by adding unnecessary restrictions (i.e. no-fly zones, forced autoland, forced login, altitude limits, etc.). Technically, you are better off having as many options as possible. DJI's log-in-or-you-can't-fly policy is just one of the many ways DJI is limiting your options, for their sole benefit. Do you really own your aircraft or does DJI own it?

That's why I'm boycotting their aircraft. Spending that kind of money for something I don't really own and the seller still controls my usage of isn't what I consider a wise use of my personal funds. I'm keeping my P4P for now, though, since it still works acceptably but it's my last new DJI machine.

I'll still buy and use their other products, though, to the extent that I'm fully free to use them. I like the goggles and they're not hobbled as far as I know.  I plan to use the Racing Edition version on my older 5.8ghz analog equipped machines...

luciens Posted at 2018-1-3 19:21
That's why I'm boycotting their aircraft. Spending that kind of money for something I don't really own and the seller still controls my usage of isn't what I consider a wise use of my personal funds. I'm keeping my P4P for now, though, since it still works acceptably but it's my last new DJI machine.

I'll still buy and use their other products, though, to the extent that I'm fully free to use them. I like the goggles and they're not hobbled as far as I know.  I plan to use the Racing Edition version on my older 5.8ghz analog equipped machines...

Look for the user digdat0 on youtube. His videos are clear and simple. I downgraded to version 1.03.0700 on the drone, down to DJI GO 4 4.0.8 on the iPad mini 4, and down to DJI Assistant 1.1.2 on the PC (for custom settings modifications). Now all limitations are removed. No login requirement at all, no altitude limit, adjustable speed limits in all directions (20mph up and down for example), no forced landing, no sending of my data to anyone, no NF zones, and no forced updates. Now the drone works like it is supposed to.

David_ Posted at 2018-1-3 22:40
Look for the user digdat0 on youtube. His videos are clear and simple. I downgraded to version 1.03.0700 on the drone, down to DJI GO 4 4.0.8 on the iPad mini 4, and down to DJI Assistant 1.1.2 on the PC (for custom settings modifications). Now all limitations are removed. No login requirement at all, no altitude limit, adjustable speed limits in all directions (20mph up and down for example), no forced landing, no sending of my data to anyone, no NF zones, and no forced updates. Now the drone works like it is supposed to.

Nah... my philosophy is, if you don't like it, don't buy it and use it so that has to apply to me also . What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so it's on me for having bought this thing without doing my research and understanding that it doesn't suit my needs. That's not DJI's fault, but mine alone.

I'll probably sell it eventually and move on to something else.

I did take my S800 out yesterday and dusted it off. Lousy video but looping and rolling a copter that big in manual mode creates echos you can hear for miles .

luciens Posted at 2018-1-4 08:52
Nah... my philosophy is, if you don't like it, don't buy it and use it so that has to apply to me also . What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so it's on me for having bought this thing without doing my research and understanding that it doesn't suit my needs. That's not DJI's fault, but mine alone.

I'll probably sell it eventually and move on to something else.

Similar to rooting android so that I have full control and can do things like block all ads everywhere, and use modified apps that have all of their restrictions removed, I also want to get all of the positive features of the drone, without any of the intentionally placed restrictions that were put there to account for the lowest common denominator of their customer base. To each their own.

David_ Posted at 2018-1-4 19:50
Similar to rooting android so that I have full control and can do things like block all ads everywhere, and use modified apps that have all of their restrictions removed, I also want to get all of the positive features of the drone, without any of the intentionally placed restrictions that were put there to account for the lowest common denominator of their customer base. To each their own.

Sure, so would I and I don't dishonor hacking the machine to make it work better either, don't get me wrong. I'm definitely not a curmudgeon there; hackarounds are a time-honored tradition for getting things working the way you need, I use adblockers all the time .

But I think we're also well-served to, where possible, look for alternatives if we can. Maybe a competitor with a better solution or even a DIY copter. And let the market apply the pressure in the way that it should.... Like i said, I'm going back to my older copters from about 4 or 5 years ago. I mothballed them back then but they all still work: 2 f550's with E300 propulsion systems and Naza V2's and a pair of S800's. Great fun to fly on 5.8ghz analog and the S800/WKM's can still take Zenmuse gimbals I believe....

All that said, though, it wouldn't surprise me if other drone manufacturers get on the NFZ/etc. bandwagon also. It seems like it's kind of a direction the whole industry is going, unfortunately....

luciens Posted at 2018-1-4 21:27
Sure, so would I and I don't dishonor hacking the machine to make it work better either, don't get me wrong. I'm definitely not a curmudgeon there; hackarounds are a time-honored tradition for getting things working the way you need, I use adblockers all the time .

But I think we're also well-served to, where possible, look for alternatives if we can. Maybe a competitor with a better solution or even a DIY copter. And let the market apply the pressure in the way that it should.... Like i said, I'm going back to my older copters from about 4 or 5 years ago. I mothballed them back then but they all still work: 2 f550's with E300 propulsion systems and Naza V2's and a pair of S800's. Great fun to fly on 5.8ghz analog and the S800/WKM's can still take Zenmuse gimbals I believe....

I think you have misunderstood something, what David describe has nothing with hacking anything to do.
What it does is simply going back in versions to a point before DJI began to exaggerate the control of their customers equipment, in parent versions you were able to tweek a lot of settings by using DJI's own software, no hacking at all.

That said still some common sense is needed and no need to do insane things just because you can and changing some parameters to far out can result in a crash, tex.

@David can you please show us your decent @ 20Mph, just from 300 feet or so?

luciens Posted at 2018-1-4 08:52
Nah... my philosophy is, if you don't like it, don't buy it and use it so that has to apply to me also . What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so it's on me for having bought this thing without doing my research and understanding that it doesn't suit my needs. That's not DJI's fault, but mine alone.

I'll probably sell it eventually and move on to something else.

To some extent I can agree with that but when parameters and abilities are changed on kit you have already bought then no, the very least should be an option to accept or decline the modifications.

I am seriously considering using the software as described in the digdat 0 videos  to get past some of the inbuilt restrictions and flakiness of recent versions but I have an aversion to using 3rd party software, who knows what it carries in addition to the use you are putting it too? Don't get me wrong I have no wish to breach aviation or national rules my big bug bear is in not being allowed to fly 500M AGL above take off point that is a ridiculous restriction also the 10% battery limitation feature is a nonsense.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 02:03
To some extent I can agree with that but when parameters and abilities are changed on kit you have already bought then no, the very least should be an option to accept or decline the modifications.

No, I definitely agree with you and KedDK both. Like I said, don't get me wrong - I only meant "hack" in that I agree that it's DJI trying to impede you in a simple and correct operation of rolling back to an older firmware and you have to break that effort. That's basically a hack, but a good one for sure .

All I'm saying is I'm choosing not to fix DJI's break for them and am going elsewhere with my money.

As for the digdat 0 procedures, I've already looked. The firmware files aren't on Github anymore - that particular repository has been removed. I looked around and couldn't find them. Maybe a cease and desist threat from DJI or something like that? So I don't know where you'd find the older firmware files now....
PS: I believe there was a court ruling recently that overruled this behavior - once you sell the product to someone in the US, you no have control over it. So maybe there's a legal remedy for this if someone sues...

luciens Posted at 2018-1-5 08:01
No, I definitely agree with you and KedDK both. Like I said, don't get me wrong - I only meant "hack" in that I agree that it's DJI trying to impede you in a simple and correct operation of rolling back to an older firmware and you have to break that effort. That's basically a hack, but a good one for sure  .

All I'm saying is I'm choosing not to fix DJI's break for them and am going elsewhere with my money.

Well at least that gets me out of the quandary of using 3rd party software and sites that may or may not have other problems and nasties associated with them. I am not a great purchaser of Drones and don't have any plans or wish to own more than 1 at a time and until I outgrow the abilities of the current P4 I won't buy another. If things remain as they are I would certainly look elsewhere and if I had envisaged this amount of interference I would not have purchased DJI products.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 08:39
Well at least that gets me out of the quandary of using 3rd party software and sites that may or may not have other problems and nasties associated with them. I am not a great purchaser of Drones and don't have any plans or wish to own more than 1 at a time and until I outgrow the abilities of the current P4 I won't buy another. If things remain as they are I would certainly look elsewhere and if I had envisaged this amount of interference I would not have purchased DJI products.

That's always a problem with proprietary technology - look at all the hacks and breaks in Windows that nobody can fix because Microsoft keeps the entire OS a "black box". You have to live with activation, broken licensing restrictions and bugs and everything else thats broken in it because of that, and you're frequently down and dead in the water because of some bug they didn't catch, etc..

That's also an argument for going with public domain flight controllers like the Naze32 based stuff. Even tho those require a lot of user knowledge and being handy with a soldering iron, etc. That helps keep the idiot factor down significantly too.

As for DJI, there are alternatives like the Naza V2 which is still a really good controller. It doesn't have the fancy GO interface, but that's a good thing too because it doesn't have all the stuff in it that cripples your copter. I think its firmware was last updated in 2015... It also has manual mode which, of course, turns your copter into a freestyle machine .

So there are alternatives and other places to put one's investment. A little more time and effort is required, but it's worth it for the protection of your property from control and prying eyes from unwanted "authorities" and broken software that can strand you with a big expensive paperweight....

luciens Posted at 2018-1-5 08:01
No, I definitely agree with you and KedDK both. Like I said, don't get me wrong - I only meant "hack" in that I agree that it's DJI trying to impede you in a simple and correct operation of rolling back to an older firmware and you have to break that effort. That's basically a hack, but a good one for sure  .

All I'm saying is I'm choosing not to fix DJI's break for them and am going elsewhere with my money.

You can still get the firmware files, if you look at the readme from the wizard tool you will see a link. A .exe has been made that retrieve them, it has been like this for a  month or so.

Also there are other archives with files needed to get a functional aircraft again.

USA Land of the free with the highest prison population in the world is this a contradiction, is it because of the amount of crime or the amount of laws.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-5 09:54
USA Land of the free with the highest prison population in the world is this a contradiction, is it because of the amount of crime or the amount of laws.

What has that got to do with DJI restricting lawful use of their products after people have purchased them in good faith. If you want to make political statements about the US I am sure you can find other forums where you would probably be received better.

KedDK Posted at 2018-1-5 09:34
You can still get the firmware files, if you look at the readme from the wizard tool you will see a link. A .exe has been made that retrieve them, it has been like this for a  month or so.

Also there are other archives with files needed to get a functional aircraft again.

Ah, interesting... ok thanks!

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 09:57
What has that got to do with DJI restricting lawful use of their products after people have purchased them in good faith. If you want to make political statements about the US I am sure you can find other forums where you would probably be received better.

Dirty Bird and I are Americans accustomed to American ways vis-a-vis our culture of individual freedom, etc. To us, it's a sacrilege generally to have restrictions like we're talking about imposed on us.'
I think this was brought up by Lucians.

It’s regarding that somehow you seem to think you are more free because you are Americans , as you can see I didn’t bring it up, also many slurs against Chinese people and the fact that somehow they are inferior to Americans.
Maybe time to realise they’re is a big world out there.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-5 10:10
Dirty Bird and I are Americans accustomed to American ways vis-a-vis our culture of individual freedom, etc. To us, it's a sacrilege generally to have restrictions like we're talking about imposed on us.'
I think this was brought up by Lucians.

I of course meant no disrespect to the Chinese nation or its people - apologies all around if that was not clear. .....

luciens Posted at 2017-12-31 18:06
This odd willingness to give up control could be metaphorical too, an indication of cultural differences. DJI is a Chinese company subject to the Chinese government; Dirty Bird and I are Americans accustomed to American ways vis-a-vis our culture of individual freedom, etc. To us, it's a sacrilege generally to have restrictions like we're talking about imposed on us. But for all we know it might be just generally acceptable for Chinese companies to do this kind of thing with their products.

But in aviation generally the notion of control is absolutely sacred, for obvious reasons. When a manned aircraft goes out of control, fatalities are the usual result so pilots typically revolt at the notion of surrendering control of an aircraft when it's in flight.

That’s ok I know you meant no harm. But if you look at link below you will see many more intrusive and restrictive measures will be implemented by your own FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=89404

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-5 11:17
That’s ok I know you meant no harm. But if you look at link below you will see many more intrusive and restrictive measures will be implemented by your own FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=89404

There is a subtle difference between a countries lawful administration creating laws and enforcing them and a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 14:48
There is a subtle difference between a countries lawful administration creating laws and enforcing them and a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.

What specifications do you believe have been changed?

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 14:48
There is a subtle difference between a countries lawful administration creating laws and enforcing them and a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.

I’m afraid Labroids beat me to the question.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-5 14:48
There is a subtle difference between a countries lawful administration creating laws and enforcing them and a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.

I suppose dji put in place the need for users to sign in once, and yes once that’s the amount of times I’ve signed in. Now look what’s coming down the line.

The FAA should consider two methods for remote ID and tracking of drones: direct broadcast (transmitting data in one direction only with no specific destination or recipient) and (2) network publishing (transmitting data to an internet service or group of services). Both methods would send the data to an FAA-approved internet-based database.
The data collected must include a unique identifier for unmanned aircraft, tracking information, and drone owner and remote pilot identification.
The FAA should promote fast-tracked development of industry standards while a final remote ID and tracking rule is developed, potentially offering incentives for early adoption and relying on educational initiatives to pave the way to the implementation of the rule.
The FAA should implement a rule in three stages, with an ultimate goal that all drones manufactured or sold within the United States that comply with the rule must be so labeled. The agency should allow a reasonable grace period to retrofit drones manufactured or sold before the final rule is effective.
The FAA should coordinate any ID and tracking system with the existing air traffic control system and ensure it does not substantially increase workloads.
The FAA should exempt drones operating under air traffic control or those operating under the agency’s discretion (public aircraft operations, security or defense operations, or with a waiver).
The FAA must review privacy considerations, in consultation with privacy experts and other Federal agencies, including developing a secure system that allows for segmented access to the ID and tracking information. Within the system, only persons authorized by the FAA (e.g., law enforcement officials, airspace management officials, etc.) would be able to access personally identifiable information.

i only had to log in once.safety is the reason,you want to keep up to date,geo fence,no fly zones.you really have t be careful these days where you fly. good luck.

Dirty Bird Posted at 2017-12-29 14:59
That is how it worked on a P2 but not on the newer birds.

My P3 reacts the same way, it just stops. It will let you move away from the NFZ, just not into it.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-5 15:12
I suppose dji put in place the need for users to sign in once, and yes once that’s the amount of times I’ve signed in. Now look what’s coming down the line.

The FAA should consider two methods for remote ID and tracking of drones: direct broadcast (transmitting data in one direction only with no specific destination or recipient) and (2) network publishing (transmitting data to an internet service or group of services). Both methods would send the data to an FAA-approved internet-based database.

Wow, that should keep the FAA busy and solve unemployment in the USA. They could monitor termites while they are at it. I do hope they are more efficient about it than the agencies responsible for energy or healthcare.

Dockater Posted at 2018-1-5 17:09
Wow, that should keep the FAA busy and solve unemployment in the USA. They could monitor termites while they are at it. I do hope they are more efficient about it than the agencies responsible for energy or healthcare.

Yep exactly . This is why I'm thinking that DJI is only the beginning - most likely any other drone/multi manufacturers that try to compete will end up doing generally the same thing. Kind of like the situation with the rest of aviation.

Unbelievable...some of you should be ashamed of yourself, others should check yourself, and still more should stop and listen more while spewing rhetoric less!
So far, after reading through this rather spirited debate of a thread no one has presented one reasonable, solid, and compelling reason/explanation that answers the OPs question...primarily because no one here can categorically answer it.  However, many of you have had the opportunity to answer it and at the same time present your opinions and then present your rationale for having it.
While all this is well and good, I find it troublesome that too many seem to just follow blindly, but even more disturbingly is if you present an alternative view or a difference of opinion and stick to it then the name calling starts and then the nation slamming follows and heck even one poster either threatened or actually reported another because they didn't like what they were hearing.
Well, a long time ago the saying "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" applies for most here, and then everyone else should consider that at some point if you can't change another's mind that it is best to just accept that they have their opinion and you have yours, and leave it at that.

KedDK Posted at 2018-1-5 01:26
I think you have misunderstood something, what David describe has nothing with hacking anything to do.
What it does is simply going back in versions to a point before DJI began to exaggerate the control of their customers equipment, in parent versions you were able to tweek a lot of settings by using DJI's own software, no hacking at all.

There are plenty of examples of 20 mph descent and ascent using the modified parameters explained in digdat0's "sport+" tutorial https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mavic+%22sport%2B%22+test

You can technically get into a situation called the "vortex of death" where the props suck in their own prop wash and you get stuck in an uncontrollable, wobbling free-fall... but as long as there is at least a little wind, or you are moving laterally a little, then you are good.

Labroides Posted at 2018-1-5 14:51
What specifications do you believe have been changed?

Certainly the flying hight restriction.

hallmark007 Posted at 2018-1-5 15:12
I suppose dji put in place the need for users to sign in once, and yes once that’s the amount of times I’ve signed in. Now look what’s coming down the line.

The FAA should consider two methods for remote ID and tracking of drones: direct broadcast (transmitting data in one direction only with no specific destination or recipient) and (2) network publishing (transmitting data to an internet service or group of services). Both methods would send the data to an FAA-approved internet-based database.

By you have a fertile imagination.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 01:16
Certainly the flying hight restriction.

Really?   What flying height restriction?
Phantoms now are able to fly as high as they always have since the release of the first Phantom 3 back in April 2015.
There has been no restriction in flying height.
What else are you imagining?

They have been restricted to a flying ceiling of 500M above take off point.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 01:55
They have been restricted to a flying ceiling of 500M above take off point.

In post #171 above, you are talking about a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.
As I explained above there has been no change in the height any owners can fly to.
I'm unaware of any changes to specifications and suspect your argument is based on things you imagine, but are not true.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 01:18
By you have a fertile imagination.

I think its fair to say that most on this thread have a fertile imagination, yourself included, how high did you think your drone was going to fly before you purchased it, or did you even check?

Labroides Posted at 2018-1-6 02:49
In post #171 above, you are talking about a manufacturer changing specifications on purchased products.
As I explained above there has been no change in the height any owners can fly to.
I'm unaware of any changes to specifications and suspect your argument is based on things you imagine, but are not true.

So you are saying that people that purchased DJI drones that could fly above 500M from take offprint and there are loads of examples of this are lying when they say that because of firmware changes they can no longer do this?

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 04:57
So you are saying that people that purchased DJI drones that could fly above 500M from take offprint and there are loads of examples of this are lying when they say that because of firmware changes they can no longer do this?

I knew full well how high I could use the drone but that does not change the argument and in particular my two bug bears that drones already purchased had their performance changed as a result of firmware changes and secondly the 500M above take off point which in itself I have no problem with does not take into account rising ground level, it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut and ill conceived at that.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 04:57
So you are saying that people that purchased DJI drones that could fly above 500M from take offprint and there are loads of examples of this are lying when they say that because of firmware changes they can no longer do this?

I'm saying that anyone that bought a P3 or P4 was only ever able to fly as high as 500 metres.
I'll say it one more time for you and try to make it so clear that there is no confusion ....
DJI have not made any change to the height that a P3 or P4 can fly to.
They have not changed any specifications.
This "restriction" exists only in your imagination.

Earlier P1 and P2 models could, but there are no examples of people that purchased DJI P3 or P4 drones that could fly above 500M from takeoff point.

PeteHB Posted at 2018-1-6 05:00
I knew full well how high I could use the drone but that does not change the argument and in particular my two bug bears that drones already purchased had their performance changed as a result of firmware changes and secondly the 500M above take off point which in itself I have no problem with does not take into account rising ground level, it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut and ill conceived at that.

drones already purchased had their performance changed as a result of firmware changes
You are mistaken if you believe that.
There have been no changes to specifications.
My Phantoms have always flown as well after firmware changes.
secondly the 500M above take off point which in itself I have no problem with does not take into account rising ground level, it's a sledge hammer to crack a nut and ill conceived at that
500 metres is the height that DJI's designers decided on.
It allows flight far above the legal height of any country and allows reasonable flight using rising ground level.
Your Phantom has physical limitations with regard to how long it can fly for and what wind it can deal with.
Every week I see cases of flyers that go to 300, 400 or 500 metres and lose their Phantoms when they are blown away by high level winds.
Imagine how many more would lose their drones if they could fly even higher.
For those that really need to fly higher, the Phantom is not the machine to buy and there are others they can use.
500 metres is a good max altitude to allow reasonable safe use of the Phantom without much inconvenience.

Labroides Posted at 2018-1-6 05:31
drones already purchased had their performance changed as a result of firmware changes
You are mistaken if you believe that.
There have been no changes to specifications.

At the rear of my house is a small hill with an interesting pinnacle and rock formation. Its hight above my garden is 720 M so to film it I have to walk about a third of a mile and ascend 250 M I then miss the terrain in between which has a couple of ruined farmhouses and a nice stream unless I do two videos. I can do the flight using waypoints a couple of circles of the pinnacle and a traverse of the face and return with over 35% battery remaining so I could easily do it from my garden. As I said a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There must be many similar examples, I could certainly find some within walking distance of my house.

Dirty Bird Posted at 2018-1-6 06:49
Walk the streets of Baltimore & you'll quickly find your answer...

Sounds like a song title, but I’m fine where I am.

“The truly free man is the one who can turn down an invitation to dinner without giving an excuse.”