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Why is everyone downscaling their footage?
4298 37 2018-1-15
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Steeevo
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As the title says, i dont get why most people film in 4k/2.7k and then edit and render the final film to 1080 what is the reason behind this.

I am filming editing and rendering in 4k and think im one of the few that is doing this but why?
2018-1-15
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nottuppaware
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Depends on your final destination and what other footage source I'm mixing it with.
I have a 4k tv so I try to always keep a final output at 4k but if I want to mix my Spark footage then I might downscale it to 1080p.
2018-1-15
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Aardvark
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Probably because the majority of households, or more importantly businesses do not yet own 4k display devices. Or where the video is automatically rescaled this is usually only available on newer operating systems and software/hardware that would support the 'newish' 4k format.

I record/edit everything in 4k because it's the highest resolution, if I give copies to friends then I render a copy at 1080P because this will playback well on most devices.
2018-1-15
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Jyunte
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Aardvark Posted at 2018-1-15 15:57
Probably because the majority of households, or more importantly businesses do not yet own 4k display devices. Or where the video is automatically rescaled this is usually only available on newer operating systems and software/hardware that would support the 'newish' 4k format.

I record/edit everything in 4k because it's the highest resolution, if I give copies to friends then I render a copy at 1080P because this will playback well on most devices.

4K is the highest resolution, sure, but not the highest quality. This is due to the low bandwidth and high compression rate at 4K. The best bang for your buck seems to be 2.7k at 30fps.
2018-1-15
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Steeevo
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I have rendered my footage at 4k and added to youtube/given to friends and they have no trouble viewing it on their computers, I also have apple tv on my 4k and 1080 TV's and have no trouble viewing the 4k footage on either tv's
2018-1-16
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Jyunte
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Steeevo Posted at 2018-1-16 00:27
I have rendered my footage at 4k and added to youtube/given to friends and they have no trouble viewing it on their computers, I also have apple tv on my 4k and 1080 TV's and have no trouble viewing the 4k footage on either tv's

In those instances, you're allowing YouTube, or your friends' 1080P-only TVs to down sample your 4K video for you, using whatever algorithm came with the device. If you want more control over the quality of your final product, and how it will look on your friends' TVs, or computer, or on YouTube, you resize it yourself.
2018-1-16
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chiplifter
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I record in 4k and downscale to1080 because you can zoom in post. And I do not own 4K tv yet :-(
2018-1-16
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Bigga J
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A 4k display will normally upscale to UHD or 4K anyway ... I know my Sony Oled A165 does as do most other Oled's on the market.
2018-1-16
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Steeevo
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Jyunte Posted at 2018-1-15 19:06
4K is the highest resolution, sure, but not the highest quality. This is due to the low bandwidth and high compression rate at 4K. The best bang for your buck seems to be 2.7k at 30fps.

Are you saying recording with the mavic at 2.7k looks better on a 4k screen than 4k footage?
2018-1-17
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Malakai_UK
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Steeevo Posted at 2018-1-17 02:46
Are you saying recording with the mavic at 2.7k looks better on a 4k screen than 4k footage?

In your other post Steeevo i posted a chart that gives you an idea on the quality of the video that will be captured at any given resolution and frame rate, if you have a look at the chart:
Comparing 4k cinematic@24fps and 2.7k@24fps.
The difference is that 4k is about 1.5x the resolution of 2.7k, this will produce a more detailed image. However H264 compression isapplied to the video and this is what will effect the quality of the captured video. This is done with a set bitrate. 4k having 60Mbits/ps and 2.7k having 45Mbits/ps.

2.7k@45Mbits/ps will have less compression artifacts than 4k@60Mbits/ps because of the size of the frame it has to compress. Therefore upscaling from 2.7k by 1.5x to 4k will produce footage with less artifacting than 4k native. The image may loose a small amount of detail due to the resolution loss but this will be fairly impercevable unless you are watching on a true 4k TV at native output bitrates. Remember that media sites compress any video thats uploaded even more so you wont be watching the true final output bitrate this way anyway

In my experience with downscaling, I find it worked best going from 2.7k@24fps to 1080p@24fps, you get a more detailed image beacuse the 2.7k footage is about 2.5x the resolution of 1080p and they are close in terms of bits per pixel. So you get nice detailed and sharper 1080p footage with a similar level of artifacting that you would get if you captured at 1080p natively.

If only we could get RAW video capture from the Mavic!!!
2018-1-17
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Whosin
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Malakai_UK Posted at 2018-1-17 05:05
In your other post Steeevo i posted a chart that gives you an idea on the quality of the video that will be captured at any given resolution and frame rate, if you have a look at the chart:
[view_image]Comparing 4k cinematic@24fps and 2.7k@24fps.
The difference is that 4k is about 1.5x the resolution of 2.7k, this will produce a more detailed image. However H264 compression isapplied to the video and this is what will effect the quality of the captured video. This is done with a set bitrate. 4k having 60Mbits/ps and 2.7k having 45Mbits/ps.

Thanks for the info..
Can you please confirm that this is what you meant?
* Shoot at 2.7K @24fps
* Edit at 1080@24fps
* Out put at 1080@24fps?
2018-1-17
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Malakai_UK
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Whosin Posted at 2018-1-17 05:44
Thanks for the info..
Can you please confirm that this is what you meant?
* Shoot at 2.7K @24fps

Yes, in my experience, capturing and editing at 2.7k@24fps then output at 1080p@24fps this will produce detailed 1080p footage at the slight expense of quality compared to capturing natively at 1080p@24fps. However the difference is something that the end-viewer will probably never notice. For the best footage quality though, 1080p@30fps has the highest bitrate per-pixel compared to any other resolution meaning less artifacting where there is a lot going on.
2018-1-17
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MiniPalourde
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Jyunte Posted at 2018-1-15 19:06
4K is the highest resolution, sure, but not the highest quality. This is due to the low bandwidth and high compression rate at 4K. The best bang for your buck seems to be 2.7k at 30fps.

Wow. Do you have any source for this?
2018-1-17
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CuaC
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Render depends on the output media, but your masters should be at the best possible quality you can achieve (in case you might need them in the future) My mavic shots are 2.7 k for that reason, while I always render to 1080 because that's enough.
2018-1-17
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Jyunte
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MiniPalourde Posted at 2018-1-17 06:45
Wow. Do you have any source for this?

See post #10, above.
2018-1-17
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ny300z
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interesting stuff. Personally, i definitely feel like my 4K footage looks better on my 4K laptop then 2.7k does but are you guys saying that may just be in my head or whatever?

2018-1-17
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Malakai_UK
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ny300z Posted at 2018-1-17 13:33
interesting stuff. Personally, i definitely feel like my 4K footage looks better on my 4K laptop then 2.7k does but are you guys saying that may just be in my head or whatever?

No, 4k will look sharper and more detailed than 2.7k. What you will see more of though is compression artifacts but the average person viewing the 4k video on youtube wouldn't notice the difference.
2018-1-17
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ny300z
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Malakai_UK Posted at 2018-1-17 13:46
No, 4k will look sharper and more detailed than 2.7k. What you will see more of though is compression artifacts but the average person viewing the 4k video on youtube wouldn't notice the difference.

Understood, thanks for the info!
2018-1-17
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FlyDK
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I find it difficult to understand what the words "artifacting" and "artifacts" really covers. Could one of you try to explain it to me please?
2018-1-17
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Aardvark
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FlyDK Posted at 2018-1-17 14:52
I find it difficult to understand what the words "artifacting" and "artifacts" really covers. Could one of you try to explain it to me please?

An 'artifact' is really just any blemish visible on the image, often pixelisation due to poor compression, or perhaps 'hot pixels' generally seen in long exposures etc. At least that's always been my usage of the term.
2018-1-17
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Brian88
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For me 4k downgraded to 1080 is still better quality than shooting 1080 from the get-go. Plus the added ability to crop, zoom, pan in post adds nice effects when done right. Even if you had an 8K Red Epic, You would still downgrade to 4k and 1080 when you export. This is because viewing devices don't support 8k and a lot of people still don't own 4k viewing devices or the bandwidth to stream 4k footage without a ton of buffering.
2018-1-17
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Malakai_UK
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FlyDK Posted at 2018-1-17 14:52
I find it difficult to understand what the words "artifacting" and "artifacts" really covers. Could one of you try to explain it to me please?

Sure, simply, the compressor uses inter-frame compression, it will take all of the data from the first frame known as the key frame and not compress it. The next eight frames will be compressed based on the difference in groups of pixels to each other then makes the ninth frame a keyframe containing all image information.

So the artifacts are happening due to the compression of the frames between the two keyframes. The compressor is only allowed to use a certain amount of bits for each frame and in order to do this it analyses the difference between the frames and only saves the changes that have happened between those frames. In your footage you might see this as squares or blocks of the video that look a bit mushy.
Kind of like if you imagine it in photography terms, the first frame is a raw frame and the next eight frames are jpeg images then the ninth another raw frame.

Hope this helps
2018-1-17
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FlyDK
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Malakai_UK Posted at 2018-1-17 15:36
Sure, simply, the compressor uses inter-frame compression, it will take all of the data from the first frame known as the key frame and not compress it. The next eight frames will be compressed based on the difference in groups of pixels to each other then makes the ninth frame a keyframe containing all image information.

So the artifacts are happening due to the compression of the frames between the two keyframes. The compressor is only allowed to use a certain amount of bits for each frame and in order to do this it analyses the difference between the frames and only saves the changes that have happened between those frames. In your footage you might see this as squares or blocks of the video that look a bit mushy.

Thank you.
2018-1-17
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fans9553217f
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If you shoot in a lower resolution than 4k, you cannot then recode at 4k and expect to end up with 4k quality. As others have rightly said, you produce your edited video at the target audience. Many folk who watch youtube do so on devices that are not 4k screens. 4k at a quality bitrate takes ages to upload to youtube. Why bother? I often find a great frame i can use as a still image, so 4k has an aditional benefit for me. You mentioned 2.7k gives you better results than 4k. You are probably doing something wrong. Wrong recording profile, wrong parameters like bitrate when producing you putput file. Artifacts will be significant with poor choice of parameters.
2018-1-31
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fans9553217f
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Regarding upscaling 2.7k to 4k. You may have a higher bitrate, but creating pixels (data) is not a magical process. It simply interpolates between adjacent pixels and so the resulting image is less sharp, regardless of bitdepth. It is more likely the 4k settings are not optimum. Many editing software have preset templates you can chose for your output file. You are not forced to use heavy compression. Admittedly, you cannot get more out than the drone settings allow.
2018-1-31
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S.D. Pilot
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quality of the footage 2k to 1080p would render better.
2018-1-31
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Infosmercial
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FlyDK Posted at 2018-1-17 14:52
I find it difficult to understand what the words "artifacting" and "artifacts" really covers. Could one of you try to explain it to me please?

Artifacts are the result of the video file being compressed. See when the light hits the image sensor, it contains an incredible amount of data. Not all of the data is used for creating the actual video. In order for the light hitting the sensor to be recorded numerous times per second and then written to memory, the video must be compressed. So what that means is some of that data from the sensor is thrown away, or rather the image processor determines what information can be thrown away and what information can be sort of grouped together.

As an example, in areas of heavy foliage, where there is lots of the same deep colors and textures, the processor on the mavic pro will throw away some of the information. If you pause a frame and zoom in, small pixel groups  may look like its blurry, or a few of the pixels look the same. Detail and color information is essentially lost or not accurate because the image processor has guessed what that information should be. And those are artifacts! The more aggressive the compression and lower bitrate, the more artifacts.

Cheers!
2018-1-31
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VLOGNOSIS
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I was an early adopter of 4k. All my screens are 4k including my laptop. However, I currently work in 1080 due to the speed of the workflow. 4k bogs down my computer, takes up hard drive space, and on cameras uses up the battery quicker. I reserve 4k for special projects, or with drone footage as I can crop in on those less perfectly composed shots.
2018-1-31
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Infosmercial
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If you desire 4K output then that works just fine and keep doing that. If most of what you share is going on Youtube or social media, outputting at 1080 is perfectly acceptable. The reason to downscale from 4K or 2.7K footage to 1080, as opposed to recording 1080 natively, is that either way the image quality will be compressed. By shooting in 4K and downscaling, when the image is compressed by your computer or output device, there is far more image information for it to use when it compresses to 1080 than if you had a native 1080 file. If you compare a native 1080 file to one that was down scaled from 4K or 2.7K, you should generally see that the image quality is sharper and colors are more accurate.
I film on a Sony A6300 and the difference between native 1080 and 1080 from a downscaled 4K file is night and day.
2018-1-31
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A CW
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Jyunte Posted at 2018-1-15 19:06
4K is the highest resolution, sure, but not the highest quality. This is due to the low bandwidth and high compression rate at 4K. The best bang for your buck seems to be 2.7k at 30fps.

Yep - that is what I mainly record in and I have a 4K TV.
2018-1-31
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Steeevo
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Did a quick 20 SECOND comparison video at lunch today.

2018-1-31
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Peaugh
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I haven't gotten to the point yet where I am editing after the fact, but this has been a very helpful and informative thread. Thanks!
2018-1-31
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Steeevo
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I cant see a difference in that video.
2018-2-1
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Chasing Light & Shadows
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Steeevo Posted at 2018-1-31 13:43
Did a quick 20 SECOND comparison video at lunch today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6brlKhm3Pw0&feature=youtu.be

I can only see a small advantage to the 4k, it's a small amount but definitely there. For an example, pause at 21 seconds, expand to full screen and look at the fence panels, unpause and repeat a few times to account for motion blur and the 4k is always slightly sharper. Not conclusive evidence as a whole but in this instance with this scene and lighting conditions 4k for the win.
2018-2-1
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Henry-M
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Steeevo Posted at 2018-2-1 00:28
I cant see a difference in that video.

are you watching using 4K Display?
2018-2-1
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Steeevo
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Yes I have Apple TV 4k and a 4k tv and when watching it I can only very slightly see the image is a tiny bit sharper. not sure If its worth the extra space 4k takes up
2018-2-1
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eYeSkYeYe
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Maybe they spent too much on drones so don't have budget currently for getting decent machine capable of editing and rendering 4k?
2018-2-1
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MaineMavick
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If you don't use 4k, then you don't use 4k. You're just that super extra special.
2018-2-9
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