Aileron, Elevator and Rudder
59054 25 2018-5-1
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Sea Parrot
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Yet again I've read a thread that turned into a fight when posters fight about elevator, aileron and rudder on their Mavic Air....

A Mavic Air doesn't have aileron, elevator or rudder. Those aren't what an aircraft does; they are control surfaces on a fixed-wing aeroplane.

http://www.flyingfear.net/wp-con ... 1/planecontrols.jpg  (And this image shows other control surfaces as well).

The threads I've read then degenerate into aileron on a helicopter, and how it isn't the same as aileron on a fixed-wing aircraft, and how that isn't the same as aileron on a quadcopter.

First - I know what I'm talking about. I first flew a real aircraft over 30 years ago. I've owned and maintained my own 2-seater aircraft; I've flown 4-seater aircraft aircraft; I passed my pilot's exams with an overall score of over 95%; on the aircraft(technical) paper I scored 100%. I've also flown real helicopters and have flown RC helicopters (TREX 450 and TREX 500) for 8 years. I've been involved in aviation for a looong time; I've had meaningful conversations about the technical side of piloting aircraft with some well-known test pilots and I learnt a LOT from them. Although I'm not a professional aviator I have been involved in professional aviation for almost 20 years and know the importance of getting terminology absolutely correct. It can be a life-and-death matter (although in this case it isn't).

So - the Mavic Air and it's controls. It's a fully fly-by-wire aircraft. There is no direct link between the sticks and propeller RPM/aileron/elevator/etc. The sticks command the aircraft to give a specific performance; the aircraft is 100% responsible for deciding what RPMs to apply to the motors to provide that performance.
I'll discuss both controller sticks and what they really do. I'm going to assume mode 2 (left stick is up/down, and yaw left/right, right stick is move forward/back and move left/right).

What does the left stick do when moved forward or back? It commands no more and no less than a rate of change of height, apart from two specific cases. Left alone, the aircraft maintains height. Stick moved towards the pilot, it commands a rate of descent proportional (in some way) to it's position. Same for moving away from the pilot. The two specific cases are when the aircraft reaches the maximum height it's allowed to go, in which case it won't increase height. Similarly close to the ground, it will stop the aircraft from descending once it's about 3' from the ground. There is then the "override", if the stick is held back, to make the aircraft land.

Simple - and we all think we know this. But actually we don't - many (most?) pilots think it directly controls the propeller RPM. But it doesn't directly controll the propeller RPM. It indirectly control the RPM. The aircraft will decide what propeller RPM to use to provide the result that the pilot is commanding.

That is a subtle difference and should be thought about. For example - if the aircraft is in an updraft (perhaps a thermal? It's a nice day....) and the left stick isn't being touched, then the aircraft will slightly reduce the propeller RPM so that the height doesn't change.

A more compilcated and interesting situation - "aileron"! Or at least that's what it gets called in the .DAT logs etc. and by some posters here and probably by DJI as well.

The Mavic Air does not have aileron. An aileron is a control surface on a fixed-wing aircraft.

So what do pilots mean by aileron? What does DJI mean by aileron?

When the right stick is moved left or right, the aircraft moves left or right. But the aircraft doesn't have an aileron! So what happens?

The right stick, moving left or right, is commanding the fly-by-wire aircraft to move left or right at a specific rate proportional to the stick position. No more, no less.

To do this the aircraft knows the stick position and knows it should move at some speed left or right. For sake of argument, right stick is moved fully left, commanding the aircraft to move to the left as fast as it can. Some folks call this "aileron"; that's wrong.

To move left from stationary the aircraft will tilt left (increase RPM on both right motors, decrease RPM on both left motors, so that the height doesn't change). The aircraft will then start to move to the left. Whilst the RPM left/right difference is happening, the aircraft will tilt more and more to the left. At some point it will be moving to the left at the rate commanded by the stick. At which point the aircraft will increase RPM on the left motors, decrease RPM on the right motors, such that it maintains the same tilt. Again - no aileron! It's all fly-by-wire and very bloody clever it is to.

Something similar happens with "move forwards", i.e. right stick forwards. In this case it's rear motors increase RPM, front motors decrease RPM, until the required tilt forward angle to provide the commanded speed is reached at which point the aircraft will reduce rear motor RPM, increase front motor RPM to maintain that angle.

It gets more interesting when flying in a gusty wind! If the aircraft is hovering, it knows that it should maintain position/height/heading. But what happens if the aircraft is commanded to fly into a headwind with full right stick forward? This is where the fly-by-wire and intelligence of the aircraft really work. It knows that it's being commanded (in P-mode) to fly at say 20 mph over the ground. But that might mean 40 mph airspeed if it's flying into a 20 mph headwind. So the aircraft will tilt rather more forward than it normally would to achieve 20 mph over the ground, and due to the tilt forward you might get the "forward sensors not working due to headwind" warning.

It's a bloody clever aircraft, but I wish, oh how i wish that DJI and the other pilots here would use the aeronautical terminology correctly.....

Oh - and what do the sticks in mode 2 actually command?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_freedom
Using precise terminology, i.e. the six degrees of freedom, pitch/roll/yaw/surge/sway/heave :
The left stick moved forward and back controls rate of heave.
The left stick moved left and right controls rate of yaw.
The right stick moved forward and back controls rate of surge.
The right stick moved left and right controls rate of sway.
Of the six degrees of freedom; four of them are commanded by the sticks, i.e. heave, yaw, surge, sway. The two that aren't commanded, but are effectively side-effects of what is being commanded, are pitch and roll.
Edited to add: What about when the aircraft is moving fast forwards and "aileron" i.e. right stick moved right is applied? In that case the aircraft knows it's commands are to fly as fast as it can forwards and right; the rotor RPMs will momentarily change to tilt the aircraft right-and-forwards to provided the commanded response.

I haven't discussed yaw; that's quite simple; it's a matter of differing RPM and thus torque between the motors that turn clockwise and those that turn anticlockwise. It can do this in such a way that the current aircraft attitude is maintained. (Note I said "attitude" not "altitude"; again please don't confuse these two similar sounding terms!)






2018-5-1
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Bekaru MP UAV
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my best attempt to try answer this mail would be to suggest this: even if the term used in drones is technically incorrect, it is the word used to explain something (in the drone world) and that word is commonly accepted by drone pilots to mean a certain thing - even if that is an incorrect terminology by aeronautical language, think of it as meaning something a bit different with drones. You can fight it or you can accept it the way it is and invest the time saved into piloting and filming skills.
2018-5-1
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asaw
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Very well put for such a short introduction to such complex things, Sea Parrot! In fact, it is autopilot that flies our drones and we only adjust it by means of sticks and other input, like pressing RTH. Perhaps only the "Attitude" mode is closest to flying without autopilot. Only in this mode pilot's input on the right stick of the RC controls pitch and roll almost directly, although still not like in a real airplane or helicopter (the autopilot still stabilizes the drone relative to horizon), the pitch and roll angles in this mode are proportional to the corresponding input on the right stick.
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Sea Parrot
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Bekaru MP UAV Posted at 2018-5-1 14:13
my best attempt to try answer this mail would be to suggest this: even if the term used in drones is technically incorrect, it is the word used to explain something (in the drone world) and that word is commonly accepted by drone pilots to mean a certain thing - even if that is an incorrect terminology by aeronautical language, think of it as meaning something a bit different with drones. You can fight it or you can accept it the way it is and invest the time saved into piloting and filming skills.

A drone pilot is a pilot, subject to all the laws and responsibilities of any pilot.

As such they should know the capabilities of their aircraft, by reading the flight manual, by getting air experience, by talking with other pilots, and by reading accident reports. To ensure no misunderstanding the terminology of what is a technical subject must be fully understood by all.

This is particularly true when piloting an aircraft is being discussed - as it is on this forum.
2018-5-1
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Bekaru MP UAV Posted at 2018-5-1 14:13
my best attempt to try answer this mail would be to suggest this: even if the term used in drones is technically incorrect, it is the word used to explain something (in the drone world) and that word is commonly accepted by drone pilots to mean a certain thing - even if that is an incorrect terminology by aeronautical language, think of it as meaning something a bit different with drones. You can fight it or you can accept it the way it is and invest the time saved into piloting and filming skills.

Believe this is important part to understand.

It's a fully fly-by-wire aircraft. There is no direct link between the  sticks and propeller RPM/aileron/elevator/etc.
The sticks command the  aircraft to give a specific performance; the aircraft is 100%  responsible for deciding what RPMs to apply to the motors to provide  that performance.
2018-5-1
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Sea Parrot
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asaw Posted at 2018-5-1 14:22
Very well put for such a short introduction to such complex things, Sea Parrot! In fact, it is autopilot that flies our drones and we only adjust it by means of sticks and other input, like pressing RTH. Perhaps only the "Attitude" mode is closest to flying without autopilot. Only in this mode pilot's input on the right stick of the RC controls pitch and roll almost directly, although still not like in a real airplane or helicopter (the autopilot still stabilizes the drone relative to horizon), the pitch and roll angles in this mode are proportional to the corresponding input on the right stick.

Thanks for your comments. Fly-by-wire is something I've been interested and involved with for 30+ years.
Ah - Attitude mode is another bugbear (probably for another thread!) of mine.

I really believe that the Mavic Air should have the capability of being flown in "Attitude" mode when commanded. I'd really like to see how my MA behaves in that mode, and I would learn how to fly in that mode in a nice big empty clear field.

That mode should not be easy to get into; it could show warnings such as "if you enable manual ATTI mode you take all responsibility", and I'd be fine with that. But I would *really* like to see how it flies in ATTI mode.

And the simulator should enable ATTI mode for practice.

I've got a few friends who fly passenger jets that are pure fly-by-wire (A320 Captain and A340 Captain), and both of them spend many hours each year in simulators flying them in "degraded" mode where the protections are disabled, the modes are different etc, so that if things go wrong they don't have the airline equivalent of a fly-away
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Picture worth a few words?

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Good job , and thanks for explaining, it only 2 days ago hedge trimmer thought the throttle made the drone go forwards and backwards so you’ve brought him a long way.
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 14:27
Believe this is important part to understand.

It's a fully fly-by-wire aircraft. There is no direct link between the  sticks and propeller RPM/aileron/elevator/etc.

to be honest it was all a bit too complicated for me - perhaps i should have said nothing but wanted to get the ball rolling.
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 15:07
Picture worth a few words?

http://deckskills.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/vessel_motion.jpg[/img]

if thats what your drone looks like - could explain some issues you are having
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Bekaru MP UAV Posted at 2018-5-1 15:45
if thats what your drone looks like - could explain some issues you are having

Could not find a good picture of Airplane / Helicopter / Drone that covered all six terms, let alone all nine terms.
But when you think it about it, that picture makes a lot of sense as to how those terms came about for aviation.  
Ships came well before Planes.  Naval before Aviation.

How about a rocket?


These are less clear




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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 15:24
Good job , and thanks for explaining, it only 2 days ago hedge trimmer thought the throttle made the drone go forwards and backwards so you’ve brought him a long way.

Hallmark007, why do you continue to Lie?
It was you that stated Throttle makes a vehicle go Fowards & Backwards.

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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 17:12
Hallmark007, why do you continue to Lie?
It was you that stated Throttle makes a vehicle go Fowards & Backwards.

Your a low life, you thought you could crop what I actually said.

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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 17:12
Hallmark007, why do you continue to Lie?
It was you that stated Throttle makes a vehicle go Fowards & Backwards.


Here you thought the whole ridiculous notion of ailerons rudders was ridiculous as well , complete idiot, now your demonstrating with planes , your just a google warrior with two faces.
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 17:12
Hallmark007, why do you continue to Lie?
It was you that stated Throttle makes a vehicle go Fowards & Backwards.

Maybe you just glossed over this one, you shouldn’t have you might have learned something,
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 17:12
Hallmark007, why do you continue to Lie?
It was you that stated Throttle makes a vehicle go Fowards & Backwards.

Your just simply a low life.....
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:18
Your a low life, you thought you could crop what I actually said.

[view_image]

Fact is YOU are one who made statement about Throttle causing vehicles to go backwards and forwards.
When you got called out on it, you started your typical SPIN, Twist, and Deny routine.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:30
Maybe you just glossed over this one, you shouldn’t have you might have learned something,
[view_image]

Hard to learn from somebody who is proclaiming incorrect information.

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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:18
Your a low life, you thought you could crop what I actually said.

[view_image]

I highlighted exactly what you said.  Knowing you would once again try to Deny you made the statement and try to claim I stated it.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:28
Here you thought the whole ridiculous notion of ailerons rudders was ridiculous as well , complete idiot, now your demonstrating with planes , your just a google warrior with two faces.[view_image]

It is you who started lecturing rest of us on Drones and needing to know about Ailerons and Rudders.



When challenged about Ailerons and Rudders, perusal you went off trying to SPIN, Twist, side-track; instead simply saying you goofed.

Mavic drones do not have Ailerons and Rudders.  And if you read what original author of this thread posted you would not have made the statement of ' the whole ridiculous notion of ailerons rudders was ridiculous as well'
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:28
Here you thought the whole ridiculous notion of ailerons rudders was ridiculous as well , complete idiot, now your demonstrating with planes , your just a google warrior with two faces.[view_image]

hallmark007: Here you thought the whole ridiculous notion of ailerons rudders was ridiculous

Speaking of ridiculous, here you are.

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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 15:24
Good job , and thanks for explaining, it only 2 days ago hedge trimmer thought the throttle made the drone go forwards and backwards so you’ve brought him a long way.

hallmark007: Good job , and thanks for explaining, it only 2 days ago hedge trimmer thought the throttle made the drone go forwards and backwards so you’ve brought him a long way.

So you will remember.  It was you who made the Arrogant remark about me, for sole purpose of poking the Bear.

To all others here, my appolgies for this dust up.

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Bekaru MP UAV
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 18:45
hallmark007: Good job , and thanks for explaining, it only 2 days ago hedge trimmer thought the throttle made the drone go forwards and backwards so you’ve brought him a long way.

So you will remember.  It was you who made the Arrogant remark about me, for sole purpose of poking the Bear.

me thinks the dustup started from a comment intended in jest?
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Bekaru MP UAV Posted at 2018-5-1 22:33
me thinks the dustup started from a comment intended in jest?

If only it had been in jest.  
See this thread Mavic Flyaway problems
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HedgeTrimmer Posted at 2018-5-1 22:46
If only it had been in jest.  
See this thread Mavic Flyaway problems

I think when people read the thread they will see how you continually try to make fun of others, who try to help.
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hallmark007 Posted at 2018-5-1 17:30
Maybe you just glossed over this one, you shouldn’t have you might have learned something,
[view_image]

Every single person who has ever been trained to fly powered aircraft knows:
-Power controls altitude
-Pitch controls speed
Nuff said...
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