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UK Danger Area Restriction
1009 17 2018-6-3
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helidan
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Little help with this.

Referring to this NOTAM info screenshot I've posted, is non-commercial SUSA flight permitted under current CAA regulations within the areas in red?  I see they provide times of 0730-1600 on the NOTAM suggesting to me that the area is not active outside of those hours.  Some of you will probably recognise the area as being Pembrokeshire, West Wales and specifically the area where the Ministry of Defense has a presence and often practices live firing exercises etc.

notam.jpg
2018-6-3
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Nigel_
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These danger areas are activated by NOTAM so are only restricted as specified in the NOTAM, at other times you can fly, and walk within them.
I would also expect red flags to be flying to tell you not to enter when active so your not likely to make a mistake as long as you maintain VLOS.

When active you don't want to fly there!
"Activity: Live Firing / Unmanned Aircraft Operations."
2018-6-3
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helidan
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-3 13:37
These danger areas are activated by NOTAM so are only restricted as specified in the NOTAM, at other times you can fly, and walk within them.
I would also expect red flags to be flying to tell you not to enter when active so your not likely to make a mistake as long as you maintain VLOS.

Many thanks for the confirmation Nigel.  So outside of the hours as specified in the NOTAM and assuming you take off from a location which isn't their land I'm assuming that filming that particular stretch of coastline is legal and above board?

The area as outlined isn't a DJI NFZ, it just pops up a self-authorisation warning.
2018-6-5
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Nigel_
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helidan Posted at 2018-6-5 10:52
Many thanks for the confirmation Nigel.  So outside of the hours as specified in the NOTAM and assuming you take off from a location which isn't their land I'm assuming that filming that particular stretch of coastline is legal and above board?

The area as outlined isn't a DJI NFZ, it just pops up a self-authorisation warning.

Don't worry about the warning, it is a sensible warning and you should check the Notems or red flags to make sure it is safe, but if not active then there is no issue.   When it is active, they are quite likely practicing shooting down drones, so best to let them practice on their own drones rather than yours!  The military people are always friendly, and they are often youngsters more frightened of you than you will be of them!

The South Pembrokeshire coast is not a piece I know well, I come from further north, but with most similar areas, you can fly from their land no problem as long as it is out of restricted hours and you follow the normal regulations.  Most of the restricted coastal areas have plenty of footpaths including the main coast path running across them so you have good access and they don't mind you being there, it is publicly owned land - your land.  Some areas may have warnings to keep to the paths due to unexploded things, but I think your OK in Pembrokeshire since they are always firing out to sea.  There are a few places where they have fenced off a headland with no public access, maybe because they have a firing range there, often shown as specific danger areas on the maps (not using NOTEMS) but even most of those you could fly over without issue when not restricted.


2018-6-5
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ChrisLX200
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helidan Posted at 2018-6-5 10:52
Many thanks for the confirmation Nigel.  So outside of the hours as specified in the NOTAM and assuming you take off from a location which isn't their land I'm assuming that filming that particular stretch of coastline is legal and above board?

The area as outlined isn't a DJI NFZ, it just pops up a self-authorisation warning.

There is a similar 'Danger Area' near me - it's an area on Blackshaw Moor where live firing exercises are carried out (or were years ago, there also used to be an army base nearby but that was closed). However, nothing shows up on the National Flight Planning Map, and no NOTAMS which apply to the area. However, in DJI GO 4 the place where I wanted to fly falls at the edge of a circle centered on this area, and a warning message pops up asking you to check regulations and accept responsibility. OK, fine - with no specific warnings from elsewhere there doesn't seem to be a problem, but you cannot dismiss the warning! There is a 'Yes' box at the bottom of the notification but pressing that has no effect. As a result the screen remains obscured by the notice and you can't fly. As an aside, an RC club operates flying FW planes near the center of this 'Danger Zone' which doesn't make sense.

So how do you really find out whether a particular area is safe to fly, which source of info can be relied on to be accurate?

2018-6-5
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Nigel_
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ChrisLX200 Posted at 2018-6-5 13:08
There is a similar 'Danger Area' near me - it's an area on Blackshaw Moor where live firing exercises are carried out (or were years ago, there also used to be an army base nearby but that was closed). However, nothing shows up on the National Flight Planning Map, and no NOTAMS which apply to the area. However, in DJI GO 4 the place where I wanted to fly falls at the edge of a circle centered on this area, and a warning message pops up asking you to check regulations and accept responsibility. OK, fine - with no specific warnings from elsewhere there doesn't seem to be a problem, but you cannot dismiss the warning! There is a 'Yes' box at the bottom of the notification but pressing that has no effect. As a result the screen remains obscured by the notice and you can't fly. As an aside, an RC club operates flying FW planes near the center of this 'Danger Zone' which doesn't make sense.

So how do you really find out whether a particular area is safe to fly, which source of info can be relied on to be accurate?

You wont get a Notem for that type of training area, normally there will be information on times in the local press and red flags/lamps flying when in use, often these places are mainly used at night.  Sometimes firing ranges show up on the airspace maps, but I suspect only if they use aerial flares etc. as part of the training as is the case with my local one used by the Marines.

Blackshaw Moor is listed here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-access-to-military-areas

To remove the warning message you need to tick a check box, then press button at the bottom...
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Nigel_
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ChrisLX200 Posted at 2018-6-5 13:08
There is a similar 'Danger Area' near me - it's an area on Blackshaw Moor where live firing exercises are carried out (or were years ago, there also used to be an army base nearby but that was closed). However, nothing shows up on the National Flight Planning Map, and no NOTAMS which apply to the area. However, in DJI GO 4 the place where I wanted to fly falls at the edge of a circle centered on this area, and a warning message pops up asking you to check regulations and accept responsibility. OK, fine - with no specific warnings from elsewhere there doesn't seem to be a problem, but you cannot dismiss the warning! There is a 'Yes' box at the bottom of the notification but pressing that has no effect. As a result the screen remains obscured by the notice and you can't fly. As an aside, an RC club operates flying FW planes near the center of this 'Danger Zone' which doesn't make sense.

So how do you really find out whether a particular area is safe to fly, which source of info can be relied on to be accurate?

Is your warning area actually for the model aircraft "airport"?   I have a red circle near me for a traditional model flying site.
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ChrisLX200
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-5 13:47
Is your warning area actually for the model aircraft "airport"?   I have a red circle near me for a traditional model flying site.

On Altitude Angel the area is simply listed as: Airspace (Danger Area) Upper Hulme. Nothing specific is listed, just goes on to make the point that it is your responsibility to check applicability of any local laws pertaining to the area in question. As I said, I recall many years ago (40yrs) the moor being a live-fire area associated with a nearby army camp. As a member of my local shooting club we actually made use of their firing range back then and I know the area well. Where I wanted to fly was a couple miles away, the other side of a main road (A53),  but the model flying area was near the center of the 'red circle' and surely too far away to have anything to do with it.
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Nigel_
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ChrisLX200 Posted at 2018-6-5 14:18
On Altitude Angel the area is simply listed as: Airspace (Danger Area) Upper Hulme. Nothing specific is listed, just goes on to make the point that it is your responsibility to check applicability of any local laws pertaining to the area in question. As I said, I recall many years ago (40yrs) the moor being a live-fire area associated with a nearby army camp. As a member of my local shooting club we actually made use of their firing range back then and I know the area well. Where I wanted to fly was a couple miles away, the other side of a main road (A53),  but the model flying area was near the center of the 'red circle' and surely too far away to have anything to do with it.

Surprisingly that is a Notem area, because they may use rockets, so just check for Notems.

"D304 UPPER HULME
Danger Area (by NOTAM)
Surface to 3500ALT"

(http://notaminfo.com/ukmap - tick airspace details on the right/offshore Notemed danger areas !)

The byelaws are here, with locations of the red flags:

https://assets.publishing.servic ... per_hulme_range.pdf
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Bashy
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Hey Nige, seen as we is on the subectl, i have Stanford Military Training area near me, it does have NOTAM's now an then, i have stayed away from it at all times but wondered if it was a full time stay away or just when a NOTAM is issued?

Any thoughts please?



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Nigel_
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Bashy Posted at 2018-6-5 20:49
Hey Nige, seen as we is on the subectl, i have Stanford Military Training area near me, it does have NOTAM's now an then, i have stayed away from it at all times but wondered if it was a full time stay away or just when a NOTAM is issued?

Any thoughts please?


It is full time 24 hour use from the surface up to 2500ft with occasional NOTEMs to extend it up to 7500ft.
You can't fly a drone there without permission from the military.

Things work rather differently in your part of the country and there are places they would not want you flying over.

From http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/p ... /ENR/EG_ENR_5_1_en:

EG D208 Stanford
Upper limit: 2500 ft ALT
Lower limit: SFC

Vertical Limits: OCNL notified to ALT 7500.
Activity: Live Firing / Bombing / Para Dropping / Demolition / Unmanned
Aircraft System (VLOS/BVLOS).
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Bashy
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-5 22:27
It is full time 24 hour use from the surface up to 2500ft with occasional NOTEMs to extend it up to 7500ft.
You can't fly a drone there without permission from the military.

Thanks Nigel, i thought that was the case, interestingly, its not actually in use all the time...
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Nigel_
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Bashy Posted at 2018-6-5 22:40
Thanks Nigel, i thought that was the case, interestingly, its not actually in use all the time...


For the costal and moorland sites, in general the public have good access on days when they are not in use and they try not to leave live explosives lying about.

Yours isn't coastal or moorland and appears to be used for bombing training, including from drones, not so easy to keep it safe.

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Bashy
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-5 23:01
For the costal and moorland sites, in general the public have good access on days when they are not in use and they try not to leave live explosives lying about.

Yours isn't coastal or moorland and appears to be used for bombing training, including from drones, not so easy to keep it safe.

Yeah true, they had some large ordnance going off the other day, sounded like bombs from my place :0
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ChrisLX200
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-5 14:47
Surprisingly that is a Notem area, because they may use rockets, so just check for Notems.

"D304 UPPER HULME

Thanks for the links Nigel, very useful.
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Nigel_
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ChrisLX200 Posted at 2018-6-5 23:39
Thanks for the links Nigel, very useful.

It seems a lot more of the sites like yours have Notems than used to be the case because the troops are all using drones these days:

In the latest document your site is listed as:

Activity: Live Firing / Unmanned Aircraft System (VLOS).
Hours: Activated by NOTAM 0800-1800 (0700-1700) OCNL to 2100 (2000).
Service: DAAIS: Manchester APP on 118.575 MHz.
Contact: Pre-flight information / Booking: Range TSO, Tel: 01785-763134.
Danger Area Authority: DIO SD TRG.

I assume that since it is VLOS the drones are used for information gathering for the troops, while in Bashy's case they are BVLOS so are probably doing the bombing.
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ChrisLX200
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Nigel_ Posted at 2018-6-5 23:55
It seems a lot more of the sites like yours have Notems than used to be the case because the troops are all using drones these days:

In the latest document your site is listed as:

Well now I know where to get the information I'm not so concerned about flying there. As mentioned, I'm right on the edge of the marked area, and moving 800 yds I would be out of it. Nevertheless, it would be a shame not to be able to capture images of this landmark. Video of my aborted attempt (below) does show what it looks like, but the 400ft altitude limit is going to be a problem. At 400ft above my take off point I may well run into rocks! (probably not, but I would like more clearance anyway).


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Nigel_
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ChrisLX200 Posted at 2018-6-6 00:26
Well now I know where to get the information I'm not so concerned about flying there. As mentioned, I'm right on the edge of the marked area, and moving 800 yds I would be out of it. Nevertheless, it would be a shame not to be able to capture images of this landmark. Video of my aborted attempt (below) does show what it looks like, but the 400ft altitude limit is going to be a problem. At 400ft above my take off point I may well run into rocks! (probably not, but I would like more clearance anyway).



Your 400ft Drone Code limit is above the ground, not above the take off point, so as long as you stay within 400ft of those rocks you can fly to the top.   The limit would allow you to go 400ft above the top, however since you have no visibility of what might be approaching from the other side, going above the top is not safe.

Also that is currently the recommended limit, not the legal limit so as long as you think you have sufficient visibility to avoid collisions and maintain VLOS then you can go higher.  Faster aircraft are not likely to be hugging the cliff edge and for slower aircraft you can get out of the way rapidly by heading for the cliff!
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