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How can parrot not have nfz but dji has too.
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mdsniper7
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Can someone explain to me why parrot drones can fly anywhere but dji drones are restricted. I don't understand how this can be.
2018-6-18
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A CW
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No drone can fly anywhere - all drones are regulated and the amount of regulation depends on the weight of the drone and the country it is being flown in. DJI drones have geo fencing built in to help the pilot remain safe and not break aviation laws, often unknowingly by the pilot. The reason DJI specifically has geo fencing is because their market share in the recreational camera drone industry is massive - I believe around 70%. As the main manufacturer and market leader with the most drones flying around they have probably been placed under pressure to ensure the safety of their drones. Companies like Parrot are much smaller but as their drone base expands into larger drones with longer range capabilities etc they will come under the same pressures and geo fencing will be added for sure. They probably do not have the tech and resource like DJI has to build such software into their products as yet. IMO not having geo fencing to make the pilot aware of their legal boundaries in not placing manned aircraft at risk is not a good thing for the drone industry to promote - especially at a time when governments are increasingly adding new laws and regs on the hobby.  When I tell people who approach me or show an interest that my drone can not take off near an airport and will auto land if I fly too close to one their view and opinion changes instantly - for the better!
2018-6-18
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jeebs-9
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Great question....I just don't let DJI do anything to my drone anymore.
2018-6-18
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Wachtberger
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From next year or so the Europe (France) made Parrot drones will not fly anywhere anymore if they don't have that feature due to a new regulation coming up for the entire EU. And ACW has explained the rest to you very well. Not being aware of NFZ will never protect you from punishment in case of violation. So you'd better be happy to have a drone helping you with that, don't you think so?
2018-6-18
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HereForTheBeer
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Wachtberger Posted at 2018-6-18 15:01
From next year or so the Europe (France) made Parrot drones will not fly anywhere anymore if they don't have that feature due to a new regulation coming up for the entire EU. And ACW has explained the rest to you very well. Not being aware of NFZ will never protect you from punishment in case of violation. So you'd better be happy to have a drone helping you with that, don't you think so?

no...  its annoying.. its over bearing its ruining the hobby.   i much rather 10 major crashes world wide per year vs this BS..

but here is my question:  who is actually responsible...?  because as far as i am concerned the entity responsible is the one in control, i think everyone would agree with this right?   but this NFZ stuff actually does remove your ability to control the aircraft when it denies you entry, usually stopping the aircraft or landing it.  at that stage, anything that happens, it not my responsibility as far as i am concerned as far as my insurance will be concerned and my attorney has even told me this when i asked him.
2018-6-18
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QuadKid
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DJI's NFZ's are a liability issue, not a safety issue. Safety rests solely on the PIC (Pilot in Command) as the FAA will tell/teach you here in the US, doesn't matter what you fly. What about the hundreds of thousands of drone pilots that fly FPV race quads anywhere they want (myself included), we still have to conform to FAA regs and none of them have mandated NFZ's enforced by the manufacturer whether DIY kits or RTF kits.

I agree with HereForThe Beer, I would much rather have a drone that is not making decisions for me as the PIC using some bug infested firmware/software initiating a forced landing in the middle of a highway, school playground ect... just because it THINKS it bumped up against a NFZ. Personally I feel I have the best software, it's called my brain when it comes to making critical safety decisions. Sorry for the rant but this is one topic (Mandatory NFZ's) that just ticks me off, I am responsible for my own actions not a drone.  That's why my next drone will chirp, chirp chirp like a parrot. Not against DJI, love my stuff, NFZ's not so much.
2018-6-18
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GDL
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You can’t take off inside the NFZ. The drone will stop and not go inside the NFZ if you take off outside NFZ. It should not land automatically when approaching NFZ.
2018-6-18
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A CW
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Wachtberger Posted at 2018-6-18 15:01
From next year or so the Europe (France) made Parrot drones will not fly anywhere anymore if they don't have that feature due to a new regulation coming up for the entire EU. And ACW has explained the rest to you very well. Not being aware of NFZ will never protect you from punishment in case of violation. So you'd better be happy to have a drone helping you with that, don't you think so?

Good to know mate, safety first - ALWAYS!
2018-6-19
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Wachtberger
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A CW Posted at 2018-6-19 00:08
Good to know mate, safety first - ALWAYS!

Here are the relevant provisions of the new regulation. DJI Drones meet all requirements already now.


EU UAS.JPG
2018-6-19
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A CW
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Wachtberger Posted at 2018-6-19 00:50
Here are the relevant provisions of the new regulation. DJI Drones meet all requirements already now.

There we go! Thanks for posting the official line! I can see quite a few Parrot recalls then - Go pro all over again LOL Oh well, doesn't affect me
2018-6-19
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QuadKid
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Wachtberger Posted at 2018-6-18 15:01
From next year or so the Europe (France) made Parrot drones will not fly anywhere anymore if they don't have that feature due to a new regulation coming up for the entire EU. And ACW has explained the rest to you very well. Not being aware of NFZ will never protect you from punishment in case of violation. So you'd better be happy to have a drone helping you with that, don't you think so?

The new Parrot Anaifi has geofencing, the difference is you control the geofence through the App by setting the parameters from a 10 meter to 500 meter radius in a cylindrical or rectangular fence, or do not implement the geofence at all. Basically the reverse of DJI, you tell the drone where it is safe to fly.
2018-6-19
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A CW
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QuadKid Posted at 2018-6-19 01:04
The new Parrot Anaifi has geofencing, the difference is you control the geofence through the App by setting the parameters from a 10 meter to 500 meter radius in a cylindrical or rectangular fence, or do not implement the geofence at all. Basically the reverse of DJI, you tell the drone where it is safe to fly.

Sounds pointless and I think the EU regs will not appreciate drone users deciding if there is an airport or not for themselves - defeats the object of preventing these idiots flying in manned airspace.
2018-6-19
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QuadKid
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A CW Posted at 2018-6-19 01:24
Sounds pointless and I think the EU regs will not appreciate drone users deciding if there is an airport or not for themselves - defeats the object of preventing these idiots flying in manned airspace.

Agreed idiots will, responsible pilots won't, this is the foundation of the problem, pretty much all countries have governmental regulations regarding rules of flying sUAS, these regulation(s) in reality negate the need for DJI mandated NFZ's, they are there only to prevent idiots from being where they should not be. If you are a responsible pilot then you never need a NFZ as they are built into the regulations which a responsible pilot will adhere to. If you exceed the speed limit while driving your car it doesn't limit you once it has reached the speed limit, it is your choice and your consequence for whatever action you decide to take.

Just saying, we have regulations, laws, protocol and procedures in every facet of life, we choose to follow them or not.

All airspace is manned airspace and should be considered as such, not once during my aviation ground school training did they teach or even mention that the AC should be restricted in it's full functionality, they did teach that you need to know the limits of whatever AC and it associated equipment are and to never exceed them.

In closing, earlier models of DJI craft and the operating App the Pilot had a choice to turn off the so called GeoFencing. DJI decided to eliminate that option solely to protect their liability not to protect the public or airspace.
2018-6-19
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A CW
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QuadKid Posted at 2018-6-19 02:32
Agreed idiots will, responsible pilots won't, this is the foundation of the problem, pretty much all countries have governmental regulations regarding rules of flying sUAS, these regulation(s) in reality negate the need for DJI mandated NFZ's, they are there only to prevent idiots from being where they should not be. If you are a responsible pilot then you never need a NFZ as they are built into the regulations which a responsible pilot will adhere to. If you exceed the speed limit while driving your car it doesn't limit you once it has reached the speed limit, it is your choice and your consequence for whatever action you decide to take.

Just saying, we have regulations, laws, protocol and procedures in every facet of life, we choose to follow them or not.

In an ideal world I would totally agree with you but we don't as we have seen here in the UK with these morons flying around major airports and causing planes to remain grounded and thousands of travellers delayed. That is why the UK government have redefined drone laws here and it won't stop there for sure. I believe this is mainly about 'perception' - if the authorities know that the tech will at least minimise danger to public safety and travel disruptions then that is a good thing for DJI to promote and the wider community/manufacturers to follow and work with. Whilst you and I would not wish 10 major crashes involving human life a year caused by drones there are clearly some that do and that is why the official doc kindly posted by Wachtberger shows what the legal requirements will be in the EU and brexit will make no difference as the UK have adopted practically the same laws for when we sadly leave.  
2018-6-19
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QuadKid
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I agree,  and hence the 1% of irresponsible UAS Pilots absolutely ruin it for the 99% who are responsible. As I have posted in previous threads, my biggest beef with the NFZ's is mostly for supplemental wedding videos/photo. 100% of the time the required altitude is 30'-50' AGL. No one wants a picture of the wedding party from 150' AGL. NFZ's cost me revenue even if I have ATC permission to fly the venue. The process for obtaining a waiver and unlocking by DJI FlySafe is ridiculous here in the states.
2018-6-19
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A CW
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QuadKid Posted at 2018-6-19 02:51
I agree,  and hence the 1% of irresponsible UAS Pilots absolutely ruin it for the 99% who are responsible. As I have posted in previous threads, my biggest beef with the NFZ's is mostly for supplemental wedding videos/photo. 100% of the time the required altitude is 30'-50' AGL. No one wants a picture of the wedding party from 150' AGL. NFZ's cost me revenue even if I have ATC permission to fly the venue. The process for obtaining a waiver and unlocking by DJI FlySafe is ridiculous here in the states.

Yeah, the ability to gain permissions, especially for commercial operations, does need to be looked at but for the average Joe I think it's a good safety tool in the drone - for public perception and to restrict law breakers if nothing else.
2018-6-19
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gnirtS
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Because parrot is so small and insignificant its not an issue.  That and DJI are trying to be more responsible and comply with regulations and safety concerns.
2018-6-19
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LoSBoL
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Wachtberger Posted at 2018-6-19 00:50
Here are the relevant provisions of the new regulation. DJI Drones meet all requirements already now.

Am I correct that you took this from either the NPA 2017-05A or B?

The amended opinion 01/2018 about the NPA2017-05A/B that went to the EP for regulatory consent did change that requirement, and changed GEO-Fencing into GEO-Awareness


"— geo-awareness: at present, this function is for awareness only, to support the remote pilot in complying with the limitations in the area defined by the MSs. The term ‘geo-fencing’ has been replaced by ‘geo-awareness’ to better reflect the nature of the requirement already proposed in the NPA. It is preferable to give to the UAS operator full responsibility for flying the UA in areas away from prohibited or restricted zones."


https://www.easa.europa.eu/docum ... ions/opinion-012018
2018-6-19
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Wachtberger
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LoSBoL Posted at 2018-6-19 04:01
Am I correct that you took this from either the NPA 2017-05A or B?

The amended opinion 01/2018 about the NPA2017-05A/B that went to the EP for regulatory consent did change that requirement, and changed GEO-Fencing into GEO-Awareness

Yes I did, thank you for the clarification.
2018-6-19
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QuadKid
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gnirtS Posted at 2018-6-19 03:48
Because parrot is so small and insignificant its not an issue.  That and DJI are trying to be more responsible and comply with regulations and safety concerns.

Here in the US it still exceeds the 250 gram weight limit and falls under the same rules for drones weighing 250 grams > 49.999 pounds.
2018-6-19
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ghostrdr
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When you read about all the STUPID things people post about doing with their drones on this forum, many of which could be avoided if they simply read the manual, and you want to give them the ability to put others at  risk by removing NFZ restrictions, I have to question YOUR sanity! Sorry for the run-on sentence.
2018-6-19
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A CW
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LoSBoL Posted at 2018-6-19 04:01
Am I correct that you took this from either the NPA 2017-05A or B?

The amended opinion 01/2018 about the NPA2017-05A/B that went to the EP for regulatory consent did change that requirement, and changed GEO-Fencing into GEO-Awareness

That's interesting terminology but the part "it is preferable to give to the UAS operator full responsibility flying the UA in areas away from prohibited or restricted zones" implies that the responsibility when in prohibited areas shifts from the operator to where? Geo fencing? DJI only geo fence prohibited and restricted zones - not the whole map and not where it is already deemed safe to fly. The responsiblity for the safety of the flight rests soley with the operator when flying in non restricted zones anyway and if they are able to bypass restrictions in geo fencing then the operator remains liable for the flight. The way I read it is that geo awareness applies to green zones and fencing to red zones. I think Parott need to get that typical EU terminology clarified before they have a big recall on their hands next year.  
2018-6-19
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Vlas
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If you don’t want the manufacturer of your drone enforcing restrictions then folks will need to build their own drone. Not particularly difficult and it’s something that is happening more often recently.

The technology will not disappear regardless of what people on the other side of the geo fence likes or not.
2018-6-19
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LoSBoL
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A CW Posted at 2018-6-19 05:26
That's interesting terminology but the part "it is preferable to give to the UAS operator full responsibility flying the UA in areas away from prohibited or restricted zones" implies that the responsibility when in prohibited areas shifts from the operator to where? Geo fencing? DJI only geo fence prohibited and restricted zones - not the whole map and not where it is already deemed safe to fly. The responsiblity for the safety of the flight rests soley with the operator when flying in non restricted zones anyway and if they are able to bypass restrictions in geo fencing then the operator remains liable for the flight. The way I read it is that geo awareness applies to green zones and fencing to red zones. I think Parott need to get that typical EU terminology clarified before they have a big recall on their hands next year.

Good point indeed, didn't read it as such, but it does raise some eyebrows now

You're right though, Only pilot has full responsibility, I also agree with ghostrdr, although he puts it a little bluntly

Then again, I would like to have full responsibility as well, I just need a government that doesn't neurotically say NO FLYING, because HIGH UP IN THE AIR THEIR COULD BE PLANES AND SUCH  

Example?    oh, come on!!!!   
2018-6-19
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LoSBoL
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Vlas Posted at 2018-6-19 05:40
If you don’t want the manufacturer of your drone enforcing restrictions then folks will need to build their own drone. Not particularly difficult and it’s something that is happening more often recently.

The technology will not disappear regardless of what people on the other side of the geo fence likes or not.

Apart from building your own, There is a huge manufacturing market that doesn't need to build compliant to either awareness or fencing, and you can easily import those drones from China, and I can't see that changing any time soon.

The new proposed European regulation also has room for flying those categories, those are just more restrictive in where they may be flown.
2018-6-19
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A CW
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LoSBoL Posted at 2018-6-19 06:16
Good point indeed, didn't read it as such, but it does raise some eyebrows now

You're right though, Only pilot has full responsibility, I also agree with ghostrdr, although he puts it a little bluntly

Yeah it was a bit blunt and that's from a drone operator - there are many more who HATE drones and if they knew this forum existed would have a field day with this thread LOL
The whole geo fencing debacle is a contentious debate for good reasons. Nobody buys a product only to be told they can use it in certain areas - we don't buy cars that are capped at 70MPH even if that is the speed limit here - you drive faster and face the consequences but when we are talking about flying technology for the masses that is not very popular in the public conscious then politicians and major manufacturers need to be seen to have a handle on things - geo fencing appears to be that 'handle' - for now anyway.
2018-6-19
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Merced69
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I understand the need to indicate the NFZ within the software, few users are ALWAYS going to be aware that they are near, or have entered an NFZ.  I currently fly in a restricted zone so I get a warning.  If I end up going too close to the NFZ, the drone stops and waits for me.  I have to turn it around, and fly back, before I can do anything else.  It was extremely annoying one time as I had taken off fine in the restricted zone....but at the end of the flight, the APP told me my home point was now inside the NFZ, so I could not fly back to where I had taken off, GPS was now off by about 2m, so I had to hand catch it.  Anoying for sure, but not a big deal considering what the repercussions to the whole drone industry would be if anyone actually did cause a commercial airline to crash due to a drone.  While few flights go very high, with the range on these AC, there is no stopping someone from going 2000+M up instead of left or right.

Now, from the actual rules, I believe that they have gone a little too extreme in the distance the NFZ's cover, IMO.  I agree with CW, allowing a lower ceiling the closer you go would be the better idea, planes won't be 50' in the air 3 miles from the airport.  NFZ for 1 mile, allow 20M for a mile, and then 50m for a mile......not really that hard to do, and software can easily calculate the height and distance together.  Now, if we really want safety, why not have the boarder be a vector, based upon the slow climb of a plane, it's all math.  Of course it would still be out that few extra feet I really needed.......
2018-6-19
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HereForTheBeer
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the best solution is to make the operator aware... dont need to Geofence responsible people, just popup the alert in red says im flying near or in a restricted flight zone, land or return ASAP  and assuming that the alert is valid and not ridiculous like my backyard which isn't anywhere near an airport or helipads..ill listen to it.
plus a system that just alerts pilots will allow responsable people to fly their droens in responable ways if they are in a NFZ or TFR area... like below the tree lines to get family photos or wedding photos or just play around over a lake or a river or something.. without having to disable our motors and drones..

there will always be someone doing somethign irresponsble, nothing dji can ever do to stop that even with their own products, someone will eventually jailbreak it and disable NFZ systems or mod firmware files and reflash it themselves... locks only keep the honest out..

the fundamental issue that i have with this sort of stuff that blocks you and takes control away from the pilot by air braking to prevent you from entering a zone, am i still responsible for the aircraft at that point if it enters on its own, including by wind and nature..?  because it took the control away from me, even if it was briefly...  the way i see it is this system is acting like a parent, which means it needs to assume same level of responsibility for my flight if sh**t goes wrong with it.  

but alas, regulations and people making them are corrupted, they will not take responsibility if it fails to prevent a major occurrence, they will find someone else to blame.  probably go on some witch hunt for the pilot that owned they drone. just so they can make a point and so they can keep their hands clean..


2018-6-19
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hallmark007
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QuadKid Posted at 2018-6-18 15:48
DJI's NFZ's are a liability issue, not a safety issue. Safety rests solely on the PIC (Pilot in Command) as the FAA will tell/teach you here in the US, doesn't matter what you fly. What about the hundreds of thousands of drone pilots that fly FPV race quads anywhere they want (myself included), we still have to conform to FAA regs and none of them have mandated NFZ's enforced by the manufacturer whether DIY kits or RTF kits.

I agree with HereForThe Beer, I would much rather have a drone that is not making decisions for me as the PIC using some bug infested firmware/software initiating a forced landing in the middle of a highway, school playground ect... just because it THINKS it bumped up against a NFZ. Personally I feel I have the best software, it's called my brain when it comes to making critical safety decisions. Sorry for the rant but this is one topic (Mandatory NFZ's) that just ticks me off, I am responsible for my own actions not a drone.  That's why my next drone will chirp, chirp chirp like a parrot. Not against DJI, love my stuff, NFZ's not so much.

They only thing I would say about this is, all manned pilots are only allowed to fly where they have permission, they must produce SOP before the fly and get clearance to fly and always have the backup of ATC, with drones there is no other third party to check when and where you are going to fly, if you are a commercial drone pilot you will be expected to submit an SOP and risk assessment when flying in controlled airspace, why would you see this any different. So manned pilots are controlled commercial pilots are controlled, but you see hobbyists and enthusiasts as less of a risk than manned pilots and commercial drone pilots.
2018-6-22
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QuadKid
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Here is a perfect example, I had a wedding shoot at the Shangri-La Resort venue maked by Red X in an Authorized Zone. There is a field located just off the West end of the International Airport marked by Black XX, people fly their toy, race and GPS drones there all the time, yes we have to give notice to ATC and they allow it all the time. This field is located maybe 1/2 mile from the end of the runway on a incoming/outbound approach vector, seems to me this is a much more dangerous fly spot than where I wanted to shoot. I notified ATC and gave them the GPS coordinates I would be flying in and the Max AGL of 75' (the trees around the venue were 80'-100' tall), Date and time of flight, my 107 Cert # and serial #'s of the drones I would be flying, they had no problem with it. Had to tell the client that I could not perform the service due to DJI's mandatory NFZ' they were not happy. No client is going to wait 90 days to get an FAA waiver/COA, not only that I have sent DJI's FlySafe 3 emails as to procedure and requirements for unlocking, never got a response, can only imagine how long it would take to get an actual unlock performed. Federal, State, County and Local governments get COA's for 1 year at a time to cover any area(s) they may have to fly in for SAR's, not available to public unless you are one of these entities.

2018-6-23
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LoSBoL Posted at 2018-6-19 06:22
Apart from building your own, There is a huge manufacturing market that doesn't need to build compliant to either awareness or fencing, and you can easily import those drones from China, and I can't see that changing any time soon.

The new proposed European regulation also has room for flying those categories, those are just more restrictive in where they may be flown.

Good point. I guess it’s the price we must pay in the meantime.
2018-6-24
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QuadKid Posted at 2018-6-19 01:04
The new Parrot Anaifi has geofencing, the difference is you control the geofence through the App by setting the parameters from a 10 meter to 500 meter radius in a cylindrical or rectangular fence, or do not implement the geofence at all. Basically the reverse of DJI, you tell the drone where it is safe to fly.

Yes, you're correct.  And FWIW, all Parrot's previous models (excluding one of the toy models) of the last two years have had a pilot-selected geofencing option.  In the flight software the parameter of "on/off" and how high/how far are all pilot chosen.
2018-6-24
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HereForTheBeer Posted at 2018-6-18 15:25
no...  its annoying.. its over bearing its ruining the hobby.   i much rather 10 major crashes world wide per year vs this BS..

but here is my question:  who is actually responsible...?  because as far as i am concerned the entity responsible is the one in control, i think everyone would agree with this right?   but this NFZ stuff actually does remove your ability to control the aircraft when it denies you entry, usually stopping the aircraft or landing it.  at that stage, anything that happens, it not my responsibility as far as i am concerned as far as my insurance will be concerned and my attorney has even told me this when i asked him.

You would rather have 10 major crashes world wide than put up with a few regulations???  Hm... Obviously, you've never worked a major airline crash.  And before you ask, yes, I have.  Two of them..  And you wouldn't say that if you had.  No hobby is worth that.  
2018-6-24
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HereForTheBeer
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Brad Bilger Posted at 2018-6-24 12:56
You would rather have 10 major crashes world wide than put up with a few regulations???  Hm... Obviously, you've never worked a major airline crash.  And before you ask, yes, I have.  Two of them..  And you wouldn't say that if you had.  No hobby is worth that.

First of allwhen i day  10 major crashes I mean drones hitting planes and helicopters.  Not specifically helpicopters and planes going down.  We seen so many overhyped new and media outlets saying drones striking this and that aircraft last few years including military aircraft and guess what, never been fatal. That what I call major occurrence when it happen and it gets onto national and international news.

But for the most part a drone strike is similar to a bird strike..,most drones colliding with aircrafts does vastly more damage to the drone than it does to the aircraft. Similar weight, similar size.  Sure drone isn’t flesh’s nd feathers but plastic is that substantial either.  And I’m sure expensive damage occurs at speed but, life threatening? Probably not.

2018-6-24
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Brad Bilger
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HereForTheBeer Posted at 2018-6-24 15:45
First of allwhen i day  10 major crashes I mean drones hitting planes and helicopters.  Not specifically helpicopters and planes going down.  We seen so many overhyped new and media outlets saying drones striking this and that aircraft last few years including military aircraft and guess what, never been fatal. That what I call major occurrence when it happen and it gets onto national and international news.

But for the most part a drone strike is similar to a bird strike..,most drones colliding with aircrafts does vastly more damage to the drone than it does to the aircraft. Similar weight, similar size.  Sure drone isn’t flesh’s nd feathers but plastic is that substantial either.  And I’m sure expensive damage occurs at speed but, life threatening? Probably not.

So Why take the chance?  Fly someplace else.  I do.  I live within the Ground level Class B airspace for a large airport.  I have a wide open City Park right across the street from me.  I drive about 8 miles to get into a clear area with enough open space to fly.  DJI Says that I can fly in that park and at my house because of the 5 mile rule, but Class B airspace at this airport extends out 7 miles.  As I said, why take a chance.  
When you stated "Major Crash" that isn't a Bird Strike.  But as I said.. WHY take a chance???  
2018-6-24
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Here is my point.  All this does is make the lives of us law abiding (or mostly law abiding) pilot’s lives more difficult, and nothing else really.

This won’t stop the idiots that decide to put up a non GPS drones into a TFR and get into a crash with a helicopter or fly over an active airport.    Even if those are now illegal to fly outside of ur house, best believe that people will still get hands on them same with custom building own drones.. that will continue to.. even if becomes a grey area...

his won’t even slow down hackers that will unlock NFZ system and create custom firmwares. Infact may motivate them to sell it instead of giving it away for free like currently being done.  Even if Dji and other makers try to get them arrested it won’t slow it down.  Just look at game modding communities, half of them hoping the others get arrested so they can take over more of the market, they don’t care. It be the same way with drone modding communities as well.


Long story short is all this does is ends up making our lives more difficult and they end up taxing us more and charging us fees...sure maybe with this new law they can prove u didn’t do something great.. that means something still going to happen that they need to work out right..?  Still going to be people that don’t care and never will.   
2018-6-24
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