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Roll Axis Balancing Issues - Always Horizontal -
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10803 45 2018-7-14
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djiuser_F6X6cbXW1L7u
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Hi all!

I just got the Ronin-S. However, I can't seem to get the roll axis to properly balance. Whenever I move the roll axis 45 degrees, the camera moves back to a horizontal position. I've read that in other gimbal setups, this can be a result of having a bottom heavy setup. That being said, I'm using the Canon 6D and the EF 50mm f/1.2, which are both supported by the Ronin-S, so I would think it shouldn't be an issue. I can get everything else pre-balanced EXCEPT the roll axis. I have tried balancing with and without the riser plate with no success. The Ronin app says I properly balanced everything. With the motors on, it mostly works OK, but I can definitely notice that rolling the camera isn't the greatest. I haven't done too much testing with the motors on because I'm not sure what kind of damage can happen when the rig is unbalanced. If anyone has any ideas, it would be greatly appreciated because right now, I'm super bummed about the whole thing! I have watched probably 10 different youtube tutorials and none of them have helped. Maybe I have a defective unit?

Here are the motor parameters (not sure if this helps)
Pan 34
Tilt 41
Roll 31
                                 Pan             Tilt           Roll
Power                        0                 1             1
Attitude Error             0                  0             0
ATTI                          0.3               0             0


Thanks,
Allan

2018-7-14
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djiuser_F6X6cbXW1L7u
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2018-7-14
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Zordon
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I had simillar difficulty and what worked for me was to simultaneusly adjust the roll axis as well as the horizontal position of the quick release plate (it's not mentioned in the quick start guide). For example: moving the roll axis to the right while moving the plate to the left at the same time.
2018-7-15
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djiuser_F6X6cbXW1L7u
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I have tried that a little bit. Guess I'll try harder!
2018-7-15
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djiuser_F6X6cbXW1L7u
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Eh still not working. Any other ideas?
2018-7-15
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Zordon
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The only other thing I can think about could be that it's slightly bottom heavy perhaps?
2018-7-15
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DJI Mindy
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Allan, sorry to read on your post, if the camera is too weight, the roll axis may fail to be locked in the right position, you can try to lift the axis a little bit while making an adjustment, please refer to the video at 1:44. Meanwhile, the power of motor is strong, it will not affect the gimbal performance after the Auto Tune.
2018-7-16
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DrMrdalj
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I can confirm the same problem with roll balance. I am experienced with balancing gimbals, still I did not succeed to make proper neutral balance of roll axis. It is puzzling  that roll tends to get horizontal no matter how I point the camera - if my balance was bottom heavy then roll would fall sideways when I bring  bottoms up, still it returns to horizontal again. I tried to put gimbal upside down, tried to switch cage orientation, even tried to put  roll motor in horizontal position itself, but still didn’t avoid roll leveling to horizontal by itself. My best guess is that there is some invisible play in roll motor shaft or tilt motor shaft,  so it gets invisibility offset under the load, shifting center of gravity always downward.
2018-7-16
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SpicyMexican
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DJI Mindy Posted at 2018-7-16 00:06
Allan, sorry to read on your post, since the camera is too weight, the roll axis may fail to be locked in the right position, you can try to lift the axis a little bit while making an adjustment, please refer to the video at 1:44. Meanwhile, the power of motor is strong, it will not affect the gimbal performance after the Auto Tune.

I've done everything in the video, no luck. I feel like I should not be having this sort of issue with a camera and lens that is on the compatibility list with the ronin-s. Also, the motors are not strong enough to compensate for certain movements on the roll axis. I can hear the motors struggling to work properly and the camera becomes a little shaky or turns in a weird way. Am I doing something wrong or is the camera not compatible with the ronin?
2018-7-16
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TachLock
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Hi - I have the 6D too and am having the identical issue.  I am rather concerned that this could be a deal breaker.  Further guidance would be appreciated.

2018-7-17
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TachLock
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djiuser_F6X6cbXW1L7u Posted at 2018-7-15 08:54
Eh still not working. Any other ideas?

same deal - no matter how far out you put each it bounces back to rest in the center.
2018-7-17
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StianGel
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Same for me with my 6D w/EF 24-70 f4.0 is
Have balanced multiple times.
Before the latest app and firmware update the app reported all axis "excellent".
Now the yaw gets a "good" rating. The rest gets "excellent".
2018-7-20
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DrMrdalj
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StianGel Posted at 2018-7-20 16:40
Same for me with my 6D w/EF 24-70 f4.0 is
Have balanced multiple times.
Before the latest app and firmware update the app reported all axis "excellent".

I can confirm that in-app Balance Test on fw 1.2.0.10 reports all axis "Excellent", while after fw upgrade to fw 1.3.0.20 same app reports "Pan: Re-balance needed", while Tilt and Roll remains excellent.
When downgraded to fw 1,2.0.10 in-app Balance Test again reports all axis as excellent. Camera and balance has not changed even a bit, as I did hot touch it at all. App version 1.1.2(111)

2018-7-21
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DrMrdalj
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As said eariier, I have the same problems balancing roll axis with TWO different peaces of Ronin-S and with TWO different cameras. Both cameras ware on the heavy side - aproximately 2kg with lens. Still, tilt is be balanced precisely, so camera stays in place no matter how you tilt it. In the same time roll axis levels to horizontal by itself no matter how you rotate it - even when you rotate roll arm upside down it levels to horizontal, what would be impossible if my balance is bottom heavy (or top heavy or any one direction heavy).

Next, when handle is in regular upright position and gimbal is turned off, while it is on the ground on its tripod, there is some problem with pan axis as well. While I very slowly turn whole camera and gimbal by hand around pan axis there are some angles where motor does not stay put if I stop turning - it rotates by itself back into some equilibrium point. It resembles to magnets pulling motor, while it does not happen on same angle each time so I dismissed idea about magnets. Is there problem with bearings or slip-rings or something similar?

I heavily tested my balance, so I think that there is some small problem with leveling pan axis as well -  when it is put to extreme test (when handle in horizontal so pan axis can be tested with max momentum)  it slowly levels by itself towards horizontal even if it is put in many different starting positions.

This looks to me as pure mechanical problem. Am I missing something? DJI what is going on?
2018-7-21
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SpicyMexican
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It'd be great to hear tips and tricks from someone who has successfully balanced a 6D. Hopefully someone can give a solid response because I may need to buy a different camera!
2018-7-22
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djiuser_GnXHeWZUxQeq
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I have the same issue as well -- Canon 80D w/ Sigma 18-35mm. My issue is bad enough that the camera will roll on its own if I sway the gimbal side to side --so it doesn't maintain it's horizontal stabilization. So frustrating. I hope there is a solution...
2018-7-23
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DrMrdalj
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djiuser_GnXHeWZUxQeq Posted at 2018-7-23 12:35
I have the same issue as well -- Canon 80D w/ Sigma 18-35mm. My issue is bad enough that the camera will roll on its own if I sway the gimbal side to side --so it doesn't maintain it's horizontal stabilization. So frustrating. I hope there is a solution...

Does that happen with gimbal motors operating after  auto-tune is finished?
It should not happen even on lightly unbalanced gimbal. so please check have you balanced throughly all three axis (using all  five mechanical balance controls)
I use GH5 in 8Sinn cage, Metabones and Sigma 18-35 - it swings like crazy when motors are off, while it stays well controlled when motors are in operation. I have tried different piece of Ronin-S from the same official dealer, and different camera (Canin 5D IV with Tamron 15-30) - problems ware the same.
2018-7-23
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TachLock
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The 6D was removed from the compatibility list on the website last Thursday - what is going on DJI?
2018-7-23
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lenzwizard
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Yaw: Bad? Received my Ronin S a week ago. I mounted my 6D with 24-70 using the riser plate, then the 6D with a 50 f/1.4 I had no problems whatsoever. I removed the 6D and mounted an M3, again no problems. I ran a balance test with all three setups and everything said "Excellent." Then I updated the firmware yesterday and now when I run a balance test I get "Yaw: Bad, Roll: Excellent, Pitch: Excellent." If I run calibration & Auto tune I sometimes get "Yaw: Good" I get the same results with the little Canon M3 with a kit lens.
2018-7-23
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lenzwizard
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lenzwizard Posted at 2018-7-23 13:19
Yaw: Bad? Received my Ronin S a week ago. I mounted my 6D with 24-70 using the riser plate, then the 6D with a 50 f/1.4 I had no problems whatsoever. I removed the 6D and mounted an M3, again no problems. I ran a balance test with all three setups and everything said "Excellent." Then I updated the firmware yesterday and now when I run a balance test I get "Yaw: Bad, Roll: Excellent, Pitch: Excellent." If I run calibration & Auto tune I sometimes get "Yaw: Good" I get the same results with the little Canon M3 with a kit lens.

Additional Note: before the firmware update when I ran the balance test the results were Tilt, Roll and Pan. Now the test results are Yaw, Roll and Pitch
2018-7-23
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DrMrdalj
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lenzwizard Posted at 2018-7-23 16:06
Additional Note: before the firmware update when I ran the balance test the results were Tilt, Roll and Pan. Now the test results are Yaw, Roll and Pitch

May I ask you which precise firmware version and app version  do you use?

I use latest iOS app version 1.1.2(111) and new firmware 1.3.0.20, and I still have Tilt, Roll and Pan in report, After I upgraded to new firmware 1.3.0.20  message is “Pan:Re-balance needed” while previously Pan was Excellent.
2018-7-23
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DJI Mindy
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SpicyMexican Posted at 2018-7-16 16:48
I've done everything in the video, no luck. I feel like I should not be having this sort of issue with a camera and lens that is on the compatibility list with the ronin-s. Also, the motors are not strong enough to compensate for certain movements on the roll axis. I can hear the motors struggling to work properly and the camera becomes a little shaky or turns in a weird way. Am I doing something wrong or is the camera not compatible with the ronin?

SpicyMexican, sorry for the late response, may I have a short video about the issue so that we can escalate for further support? Thank you very much.
2018-7-24
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DrMrdalj
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DJI Mindy Posted at 2018-7-24 04:39
SpicyMexican, sorry for the late response, may I have a short video about the issue so that we can escalate for further support? Thank you very much.

Hello DJI Mindy,

I have uploaded short video showing the problem of leveling roll axis. Please note that I am not connected to the SpicyMexican, while I believe that most of us here have similar problems discussed in this topic.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5tvtm ... s%20roll01.mp4?dl=0

Next, there is problem with in-app balance test that reports "Pan:Re-balance needed", which started to appear after firmware upgrade to 1.3.0.20. I am using iOS app ver 1.1.2(111). While researching this problem I downgraded firmware to previous version 1.2. and report went back to "Pan:Excellent". I upgraded firmware again to current 1.3 and report appeared again "Pan:Re-balance needed" while balance has not changed in the meantime even a bit.

While trying to test and re-balance pan axis several times, I found out that pan rotation on my piece of Ronin-S is not uniform - there are some sweet spots where pan arm returns on its own, please see the video:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wr5jt7 ... -s%20pan01.mp4?dl=0

I kindly ask for clarification and your directions. Thanks!



2018-7-24
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TachLock
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DrMrdalj Posted at 2018-7-24 08:30
Hello DJI Mindy,

I have uploaded short video showing the problem of leveling roll axis. Please note that I am not connected to the SpicyMexican, while I believe that most of us here have similar problems discussed in this topic.

I would post a video as well - however, DrMrjalj demonstrated the issue perfectly.  Thanks.
2018-7-24
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DrMrdalj
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DJI Mindy Posted at 2018-7-24 04:39
SpicyMexican, sorry for the late response, may I have a short video about the issue so that we can escalate for further support? Thank you very much.

Hello DJI-Mindy,
There happens to be several threads with similar topic. On the other one (link below) DJI-Paul answered that “there is no problem”. It is obvious that some mechanical imperfections exist, so I kindly ask for official comment on my video and questions regarding leveling roll axis, in-app balance test and nonuniform pan.
https://forum.dji.com/forum.php? ... D531%26typeid%3D531
2018-7-25
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fansd7c75b10
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DrMrdalj Posted at 2018-7-25 13:29
Hello DJI-Mindy,
There happens to be several threads with similar topic. On the other one (link below) DJI-Paul answered that “there is no problem”. It is obvious that some mechanical imperfections exist, so I kindly ask for official comment on my video and questions regarding leveling roll axis, in-app balance test and nonuniform pan.
https://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=158720&extra=page%3D1%26filter%3Dtypeid%26typeid%3D531%26typeid%3D531

I feel like it has to an issue for some Ronin-S', there's videos on YouTube with people putting on RED and the Ari Alexa Mini and other HUGE rigs, up to 15lbs, and getting it perfectly. If it's not resolved in the next day or two I guess it's going back.
2018-7-25
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darinf
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I have the same problem, but to me it's clear why this is happening. (I don't have a solution though.)

When the camera returns to horizontal, it's because the top to bottom balance is bottom heavy. It's not because the horizontal position is off. If it was the horizontal position that was off then the camera would always tilt one way. If it returns to horizontal from either roll direction, then it's like a pendulum and always "falls" to the bottom which is horizontal.

So the only way to raise the camera up is to use the right tilt axis adjustment arm up. If you raise it up enough, then the roll axis will balance and not return to horizontal.
But if you adjust your camera up to get the roll axis balanced, then the tilt will be out of balance.
You can compensate so the tilt is balanced when the camera is facing forward by sliding the bottom plate forward and back.
But you can't adjust the camera height independently of the tilt axis adjustment arm.

That's what you really need to do. You need to adjust the height of the camera relative to the tilt axis without adjusting the tilt axis adjustment arm.

I think the people, like me, having this problem probably have their camera's center of gravity higher than it should be to get a proper balance on all three axes.

I have my 5D3 mounted on a Manfrotto quick release mounting plate that is mounted on the RONIN mounting plate. This raises the camera significantly and that's why There is no position where the tilt axis camera height adjustment will work for both tilt AND roll.

But just try it and you'll see what I mean.
Adjust the tilt axis adjustment arm up until the roll no longer returns to horizontal. (But be careful because your camera will no longer be balanced on the tilt axis and might spin around and hit something.)

Or you could try removing any additional plates and mount your camera directly to the Ronin mounting plate to get it as low as possible.
2018-7-25
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DJI-Paul
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This is a general message about roll balance. For the Roll axis, as long as it's not tilting one way when you let go, it should be fine. The non-orthogonal design plus the variances when you tighten down the roll adjustment knob will offset the system by that tiny 0.00 degree. If you try to balance the gimbal with a lighter load it'll hold the roll position but a larger load will be harder to hold every angle. 

If you get it balanced to the point where it won't tilt one way or the other, the motor will handle the rest. You can see how little power it takes to move the camera by just pressing down on one side with your finger. You can also view the power values in the app under motor parameters. Don’t just look at the parameters letting the gimbal sit still on a table. Pick it up and tilt the handle left and right 45 degrees to see how much power the Roll motor is using. If they are close to 0 and under 5 when you slowly move the handle, then you’re perfectly fine.
2018-7-25
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DJI-Paul
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SpicyMexican Posted at 2018-7-16 16:48
I've done everything in the video, no luck. I feel like I should not be having this sort of issue with a camera and lens that is on the compatibility list with the ronin-s. Also, the motors are not strong enough to compensate for certain movements on the roll axis. I can hear the motors struggling to work properly and the camera becomes a little shaky or turns in a weird way. Am I doing something wrong or is the camera not compatible with the ronin?

There is a certain angle where Roll will not compensate for your movement because you're very close to having the camera or gimbal arm hit the pan motor and you're in "gimbal lock" where 2 motors are trying to stabilize 1 axis of control. This is when you go to the extreme on the Roll axis almost sideways where your pan and tilt axis can essentially become just tilt. When you approach this point, we automatically start to pan the opposite direction to prevent your the gimbal from colliding with itself. This is why we state to go from high to low, you should hold the trigger and tilt forward utilizing the tilt motor instead of going in a clockwise or counter-clockwise roll movement.

This algorithm has also been optimized a little bit more in the most recent firmware if you haven't updated already.
2018-7-25
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DrMrdalj
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DJI-Paul Posted at 2018-7-25 21:00
There is a certain angle where Roll will not compensate for your movement because you're very close to having the camera or gimbal arm hit the pan motor and you're in "gimbal lock" where 2 motors are trying to stabilize 1 axis of control. This is when you go to the extreme on the Roll axis almost sideways where your pan and tilt axis can essentially become just tilt. When you approach this point, we automatically start to pan the opposite direction to prevent your the gimbal from colliding with itself. This is why we state to go from high to low, you should hold the trigger and tilt forward utilizing the tilt motor instead of going in a clockwise or counter-clockwise roll movement.

This algorithm has also been optimized a little bit more in the most recent firmware if you haven't updated already.

Thank you DJI Paul,your comment is highly appreciated!

May I summarize and kindly ask for your correction if I misunderstood anything:
1. there is very sligh mechanical play in roll axis mount by design, which leads to dropping CG below the axis and consequently to roll leveling by itself.
2. motor power and control  algorithms are capable  by design to compensate for such small mechanical offset
3. changing from upright mode to underslung mode is best performed by tilting gimbal forward, instead by rolling it sideways

I find these answers completely satisfying. Nevertheless, current official tutorials point users om testing roll balance by having camera still under 45 degree angle, so  I kindly suggest that DJI corrects tutorial videos and manuals to be in line with these new findings.




2018-7-26
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DJI Mindy
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Hi all, the post in 35#, 37# is from our engineers, hope his explanation would help with your operation. Thanks.
2018-7-27
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Fred Johnson
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DJI Mindy Posted at 2018-7-27 04:41
Hi all, the post in 35#, 37# is from our engineers, hope his explanation would help with your operation. Thanks.

Is it just me or, the post #35 & #37 are not there anymore....
2018-8-8
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StianGel
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Fred Johnson Posted at 2018-8-8 18:15
Is it just me or, the post #35 & #37 are not there anymore....

Some posts in this thread have benn deleted. The posts Mindy are refering to is currently #34 and #36.
The two posts from DJI-Paul
2018-8-8
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DJI Mindy
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Fred Johnson Posted at 2018-8-8 18:15
Is it just me or, the post #35 & #37 are not there anymore....

Hi Fred, sorry that the sequence has been changed, please refer to the post of  #34 and #36 from our engineers, thank you.
2018-8-9
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SpicyMexican
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UPDATE 20Aug2018: Still can't get my Canon 6D or my Mark IV to balance. I'm not sure it's possible with my camera-lens combinations. I bought the mirrorless Sony A7RIII and got the camera to balance on my first try. I hope those who bought a ronin and have a Canon camera were able to balance their gimballs, because I could not no matter how much I tried! Good luck everyone!
2018-8-20
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Sergej Šiļņikov
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Hi there. I also can't do roll balance. First I tried with Sony 7III + Sigma 35 mm 1.4 which weight is 1.8kg and I couldn't. After, I decide to balance my Nikon 5300 + nikkor 35mm which weight is 800 grams and I also can't keep roll for 45%. Dear support what is the reason if I trying to balance not a heavy camera?
2018-8-24
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robtek
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Any updates from anyone, I've been having the same issue with mine over the past week and a bit.
2018-9-1
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SpicyMexican
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robtek Posted at 2018-9-1 07:46
Any updates from anyone, I've been having the same issue with mine over the past week and a bit.

Hi Robtek,
From what I understand, the roll axis doesn't need to be balanced perfectly for the gimbal to operate correctly. If you can't get your roll axis balanced perfectly, the ronin will have a harder time stabilizing at certain angles, but should still work for the most part. I'm not sure what kind of strain this puts the ronin on and how it affects its longevity, however.
2018-9-2
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djiuser_KA6FmPQcNEGF
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new firmware yaw failure .. no matter what i do..45 degree stays.. i did 3 rebalances got excellent on all 3 .. did balance test again did not move one thing.. bad yaw.. i give up...need to get yaw correct or product going back before warranty ends... dji drone game is no good im sure they switch your gimbal as well.
2018-9-17
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ericthian
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I can't get my 5dIV with 24-70/2.8 balanced. Don't have problem with 16-35/2.8 II. With the 24-70, it always seems front heavy, I can't get it right. Any suggestion?
2018-9-28
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