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Focus wheel optimization
668 22 2018-10-25
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Wisdom Tooth
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Hey DJI–
Was curious to know if development on the focus wheel firmware on the Ronin-S is considered complete.
There are a few bugs/issues that I feel should be addressed.

1. Pulling focus is not linear or consistent in any way.
2. It goes either way too fast (resulting in large focus jumps) or way too slow (but still jittery somehow?!)

If there was a way we could program in our own settings, that would be ideal! I'm finding it very difficult to achieve smooth focus racks using the wheel with a GH5. If this isn't going to be fixed, I'm guessing most people will be forced to buy the Tilta Nucleus-N when it's released.
Thanks!

2018-10-25
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Wisdom Tooth
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2018-10-26
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Wisdom Tooth
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2018-10-26
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DJI Mindy
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Hi Wisdom Tooth, thanks for your feedback, we will forward it to our engineers for attention in the future development, sorry for the inconvenience caused.
2018-10-28
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Mabou2
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I'll add my name to this.  The built-in focus wheel is a great addition, but it doesn't work like a cinematographer would expect.  I find it a bit difficult to use and end up spending a lot of time hunting for the focus rather than being able to slide it into place with confidence. Other third party systems work much better.  I had originally owned the Zyihun Crane 2, but sold it and bought the Ronin-s for its native support of the GH5 series.  The outboard focus puller on the Zyihun was not as convenient to set up, but I felt that I could nail the focus more reliably... it "felt" like a manual focus pull and reacted as I would expect.  I think DJI could do better by allowing us to dig into the software (like what already happens with customizing the curve of the motor responses on the gimbal itself) to customize the curve (ramping, speed, deadband, etc) on the built-in focus pull.
2018-10-29
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Wisdom Tooth
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Mabou2 Posted at 2018-10-29 07:56
I'll add my name to this.  The built-in focus wheel is a great addition, but it doesn't work like a cinematographer would expect.  I find it a bit difficult to use and end up spending a lot of time hunting for the focus rather than being able to slide it into place with confidence. Other third party systems work much better.  I had originally owned the Zyihun Crane 2, but sold it and bought the Ronin-s for its native support of the GH5 series.  The outboard focus puller on the Zyihun was not as convenient to set up, but I felt that I could nail the focus more reliably... it "felt" like a manual focus pull and reacted as I would expect.  I think DJI could do better by allowing us to dig into the software (like what already happens with customizing the curve of the motor responses on the gimbal itself) to customize the curve (ramping, speed, deadband, etc) on the built-in focus pull.

Yeah, using the focus wheel with a GH5, Speedbooster XL and Canon 85mm F1.8 (which turns into F1.2) is impossible because you can't fine-tune the response to input on the wheel.
Right now I'm just planning on getting the Tilta Nucleus-N because
1. It will work with literally any camera and lens setup under the sky (while the Ronin-S wheel works with like 2)
2. It's an actual focus wheel, not just a tiny knob
3. Ability to customize response settings
4. Mount the wheel off-rig in the event I want someone else to pull focus
5. At $229, it's a steal
2018-10-29
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DJI Mindy
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Hi Wisdom Tooth, we have forwarded to the issue to our engineers for test, but we need a sample video for further analysis, any chance to provide one to us when you are available? You can upload to YouTube and post the link here, thank you in advance.
2018-10-30
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DJI Mindy
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Mabou2 Posted at 2018-10-29 07:56
I'll add my name to this.  The built-in focus wheel is a great addition, but it doesn't work like a cinematographer would expect.  I find it a bit difficult to use and end up spending a lot of time hunting for the focus rather than being able to slide it into place with confidence. Other third party systems work much better.  I had originally owned the Zyihun Crane 2, but sold it and bought the Ronin-s for its native support of the GH5 series.  The outboard focus puller on the Zyihun was not as convenient to set up, but I felt that I could nail the focus more reliably... it "felt" like a manual focus pull and reacted as I would expect.  I think DJI could do better by allowing us to dig into the software (like what already happens with customizing the curve of the motor responses on the gimbal itself) to customize the curve (ramping, speed, deadband, etc) on the built-in focus pull.

Mabou 2, if you have the same issue, any chance to provide us a sample video for further analysis? Thanks a lot.
2018-10-30
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Mabou2
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DJI Mindy Posted at 2018-10-30 01:01
Mabou 2, if you have the same issue, any chance to provide us a sample video for further analysis? Thanks a lot.

Hi Mindy, I'm not really sure what I would show in a video.  It's a "feel" thing for something that is personal.  Many people might think that the focus wheel is perfect as is, but those of us who have used either manual focus pulling or third party focus by wire will understand.  Your engineers made decisions as to how the focus knob on the ronin should ramp, and they did a fine job, but the software/firmware should allow the users to dig deeper and customize the functionality, just like you do for how the motors respond on the actual gimbal where you allow us to personalize the motor ramping, speed, dead-band, etc and save the settings for three separate setups.  
Just give us access to a friendly UI that allows us to customize the action of the focus wheel too?  Sometimes I might want the focus to move quickly, other times I might want really slow moves, etc. There are a lot of lenses out there, and they each act a little differently, it woud be great to be able to customize the functionality of the focus pull to better match a lens and need.  

If we are getting fancy, you might even allow focus points to make it easy to repeatedly rack focus with accuracy.  
When it comes down to it, there is no good reason NOT to allow us a greater level of customization, especially since your competitors give us this kind of option.  You don't need to force people to use it, but you can give us access to that ability if we want to go there.


2018-10-31
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Moshe.mmm
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Yessss! Please..
2018-11-4
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hazz
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yeah ill add my name to the lawsuit
2018-11-4
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DJI Mindy
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Mabou2 Posted at 10-31 07:33
Hi Mindy, I'm not really sure what I would show in a video.  It's a "feel" thing for something that is personal.  Many people might think that the focus wheel is perfect as is, but those of us who have used either manual focus pulling or third party focus by wire will understand.  Your engineers made decisions as to how the focus knob on the ronin should ramp, and they did a fine job, but the software/firmware should allow the users to dig deeper and customize the functionality, just like you do for how the motors respond on the actual gimbal where you allow us to personalize the motor ramping, speed, dead-band, etc and save the settings for three separate setups.  
Just give us access to a friendly UI that allows us to customize the action of the focus wheel too?  Sometimes I might want the focus to move quickly, other times I might want really slow moves, etc. There are a lot of lenses out there, and they each act a little differently, it woud be great to be able to customize the functionality of the focus pull to better match a lens and need.  

Sorry for my late response and your request will be forwarded to our engineers for consideration, we will keep improving our products to make your experience with us better. Thanks again for your continuous support.
2018-11-4
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Volg.in
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DJI Mindy Posted at 11-4 19:53
Sorry for my late response and your request will be forwarded to our engineers for consideration, we will keep improving our products to make your experience with us better. Thanks again for your continuous support.

Are you a Bot ? Why you are answering copy/paste method for all topics ?
2018-11-5
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DJI Mindy
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Volg.in Posted at 11-5 00:09
Are you a Bot ? Why you are answering copy/paste method for all topics ?

I apologize if my previous response makes you uncomfortable, but I have done my best to provide support to each thread, if the issue is beyond my ability, the only thing I can do is to report to our engineers to locate the issue and optimize, hope for your kind understanding.
2018-11-5
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HexTool
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Mabou2 Posted at 10-31 07:33
Hi Mindy, I'm not really sure what I would show in a video.  It's a "feel" thing for something that is personal.  Many people might think that the focus wheel is perfect as is, but those of us who have used either manual focus pulling or third party focus by wire will understand.  Your engineers made decisions as to how the focus knob on the ronin should ramp, and they did a fine job, but the software/firmware should allow the users to dig deeper and customize the functionality, just like you do for how the motors respond on the actual gimbal where you allow us to personalize the motor ramping, speed, dead-band, etc and save the settings for three separate setups.  
Just give us access to a friendly UI that allows us to customize the action of the focus wheel too?  Sometimes I might want the focus to move quickly, other times I might want really slow moves, etc. There are a lot of lenses out there, and they each act a little differently, it woud be great to be able to customize the functionality of the focus pull to better match a lens and need.  

The reason why the customization menu/function is not provided is because the control protocol we received from Panasonic is not giving us too many option in the manual focus adjustment. If you connect a GH5 or a GH5s to the official Panasonic Lumix Tether program, you will see that the focus adjustment section simply provide 2 step values, fast, or slow. It's not like they provide a range of speed from 0 to 255 or 0 to 65535 that we can utilize any value in between. Also, the fire by wire mechanism for focus pulling has its own limitations as you pointed out but we're not the one that can change that with limited access to camera control protocol.

Of course we could also provide a more accurate and linear feel with the new focus motor set which will be released soon. It's an addon, connects to the Ronin-S through a CAN Bus cable included in the motor set, and allowing A-B endpoint calibration, etc.
2018-11-5
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DJI Mindy
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Hi all, the post in 17# is from our engineers, please refer to his explanation, thank you very much.
2018-11-5
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Wisdom Tooth
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HexTool Posted at 11-5 19:12
The reason why the customization menu/function is not provided is because the control protocol we received from Panasonic is not giving us too many option in the manual focus adjustment. If you connect a GH5 or a GH5s to the official Panasonic Lumix Tether program, you will see that the focus adjustment section simply provide 2 step values, fast, or slow. It's not like they provide a range of speed from 0 to 255 or 0 to 65535 that we can utilize any value in between. Also, the fire by wire mechanism for focus pulling has its own limitations as you pointed out but we're not the one that can change that with limited access to camera control protocol.

Of course we could also provide a more accurate and linear feel with the new focus motor set which will be released soon. It's an addon, connects to the Ronin-S through a CAN Bus cable included in the motor set, and allowing A-B endpoint calibration, etc.

Wow, thanks for the information! That makes sense, and I kind of figured that might be the case with Panasonic’s software limitations. Appreciate your reply. Hurry up with that focus motor!
2018-11-5
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Mabou2
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HexTool Posted at 11-5 19:12
The reason why the customization menu/function is not provided is because the control protocol we received from Panasonic is not giving us too many option in the manual focus adjustment. If you connect a GH5 or a GH5s to the official Panasonic Lumix Tether program, you will see that the focus adjustment section simply provide 2 step values, fast, or slow. It's not like they provide a range of speed from 0 to 255 or 0 to 65535 that we can utilize any value in between. Also, the fire by wire mechanism for focus pulling has its own limitations as you pointed out but we're not the one that can change that with limited access to camera control protocol.

Of course we could also provide a more accurate and linear feel with the new focus motor set which will be released soon. It's an addon, connects to the Ronin-S through a CAN Bus cable included in the motor set, and allowing A-B endpoint calibration, etc.

HexTool,

Thanks SO MUCH for the explanation.  Its really great to see an engineer post information for us.  Thank you for taking the time.  Mindy and the other moderators here are fantastic and they have a difficult job.  Part of the difficulty for the moderators is that they aren't the engineers, so there is only so much detail they can pass along.

Regarding the developers kit from Panasonic, it's disappointing that they only provide access to two speeds of zoom.  That said,  my impression with the Ronin-S focus wheel never seemed like it was only accessing two speeds, it seems to ramp to speed, rather than switch between two speeds.  Of course, it is completely possible that I simply haven't noticed that the focus works with only coarse moves and this could be at the heart of why it seems more difficult to focus with the Ronin-S wheel.

It is unfortunate that the focus wheel is hampered in this way.  Part of the reason that I sold my Zyihun was the fact that the Ronin has a built-in focus wheel to and was marketed heavily to work natively with the Panasonic GH5 camera and select Panasonic lenses.  But that hasn't worked out too well with the issues of our GH5's being slammed around (and other communication-related problems when connected via USB to the GH5) in addition to tricky focus via the focus wheel, etc.

It is also unfortunate that the answer to the focus wheel problem is to have to buy another piece of equipment from DJI to fulfill the advertised functionality that was supposed to be part of the base Ronin-S experience.

heh, I guess it is time to start getting the marketing people at DJI to reply in the forums too :-)

Anyway, Hextool thanks again for your reply.  Much appreciated.




2018-11-6
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HexTool
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Mabou2 Posted at 11-6 05:46
HexTool,

Thanks SO MUCH for the explanation.  Its really great to see an engineer post information for us.  Thank you for taking the time.  Mindy and the other moderators here are fantastic and they have a difficult job.  Part of the difficulty for the moderators is that they aren't the engineers, so there is only so much detail they can pass along.

The focus wheel of the Ronin-S could be programmed to have very precise motion read-outs like how many degrees it got turned at what angular speed. We have tried getting the focus wheel to pass different commands, fast and slow, based on the motion read-outs but it turns out to be even less repeatable when we are trying to get the focus distance constant. Another way we tried is to make the focus wheel always send out the same command, but it could not always meet the needs of everybody. So in short term, we will open up an option in the app, to allow users to choose the speed step. For the long run, we will think of a different way to bypass the limitation of the camera system, but I can't guarantee the time frame on this more complicated method. If we work out a way, we will probably post in the forum to see if any volunteer would like to try out the beta (as we did with the SONY Multi control cable).

Mods here are actually working quite hard to collect feedback and give us a heads-up when users have questions. I will spend more time on this forum and provide assitance as much as I could. But the nature of our job is to develop so indulge me if I got silent sometimes.
2018-11-7
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Buiss
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HexTool Posted at 11-5 19:12
The reason why the customization menu/function is not provided is because the control protocol we received from Panasonic is not giving us too many option in the manual focus adjustment. If you connect a GH5 or a GH5s to the official Panasonic Lumix Tether program, you will see that the focus adjustment section simply provide 2 step values, fast, or slow. It's not like they provide a range of speed from 0 to 255 or 0 to 65535 that we can utilize any value in between. Also, the fire by wire mechanism for focus pulling has its own limitations as you pointed out but we're not the one that can change that with limited access to camera control protocol.

Of course we could also provide a more accurate and linear feel with the new focus motor set which will be released soon. It's an addon, connects to the Ronin-S through a CAN Bus cable included in the motor set, and allowing A-B endpoint calibration, etc.

You mentioned a new focus motor would be released soon, I know you probably can't throw a specific date here but are we talking more about weeks from now or months?

I use a Sony A7Sii camera with a Rokinon Cine-DS lens (manual focus) and desperately need an external motor controlled by the focus wheel soon (plus attachment bracket).   Has anyone heard of any other option available in the meantime? I know DJI Focus would work but the price tag makes we want to find other options!
Thanks!
2018-11-7
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Volg.in
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Buiss Posted at 11-7 11:19
You mentioned a new focus motor would be released soon, I know you probably can't throw a specific date here but are we talking more about weeks from now or months?

I use a Sony A7Sii camera with a Rokinon Cine-DS lens (manual focus) and desperately need an external motor controlled by the focus wheel soon (plus attachment bracket).   Has anyone heard of any other option available in the meantime? I know DJI Focus would work but the price tag makes we want to find other options!

For the DJI Focus price you can buy Zhiyun Lab 3, including focus motor and zoom motor ! Same price, but you can get moooore ! I thinking to change my Ronin S to Lab 3. DJI customers losing confidence. Because DJI doing nothing. They need just to sell.
2018-11-8
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HexTool Posted at 2018-11-5 19:12
The reason why the customization menu/function is not provided is because the control protocol we received from Panasonic is not giving us too many option in the manual focus adjustment. If you connect a GH5 or a GH5s to the official Panasonic Lumix Tether program, you will see that the focus adjustment section simply provide 2 step values, fast, or slow. It's not like they provide a range of speed from 0 to 255 or 0 to 65535 that we can utilize any value in between. Also, the fire by wire mechanism for focus pulling has its own limitations as you pointed out but we're not the one that can change that with limited access to camera control protocol.

Of course we could also provide a more accurate and linear feel with the new focus motor set which will be released soon. It's an addon, connects to the Ronin-S through a CAN Bus cable included in the motor set, and allowing A-B endpoint calibration, etc.

Hello,

I know I am a little late to the party. But I only got my Ronin S recently.

I use it with a Gh5s, Metabones XL and the Sigma 35mm art and have the latest updates on both items. And my Focus Wheel is really slow. You talked about there being two modes. Fast or Slow. How do I choose the options.

Thank you for the help.

Regards

Paul
1-9 08:17
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yogafilm38
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>1. Pulling focus is not linear or consistent in any way.
I got the focus motor today.
It works very linear and smooth with a mechanical lens.
If it is not linear it might be your focus by wire lens (all Sony lenses). But that is the way Sony wants this to work.
Use a mechanical lens instead like Zeiss CP.2 or the older Zeiss Distagon.

Cheers

1-12 10:45
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