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Benefits of D-Cinelike vs Normal?
26149 27 2019-4-5
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DJDream
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I see many reviews mentioning that it is preferable to shot video using D-Cinelike mode.

I would like to ask you what are the benefits of using D-Cinelike versus Normal view.

Do you use D-Cinelike mode for both low light and daylight shots?

I see often mentioned the fact of "better dynamic range" ( while D-Cinelike is used). What does it mean compared with the Normal mode?

It is something similar to RAW in photography?

Does the Normal mode has any benefits over D-Cinelike mode as well?

Tnx in advance!


2019-4-5
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fans3a9eb1e1
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The difference between a log video profile (which is what D-Cinelike is) as opposed to the mostly linear Rec. 709 standard is:
* It gives more details in the highlights and the shadows, allowing for fewer areas in the image that are completely white or black. That means brighter areas become slightly darker and darker areas become slightly brighter.
* Because of the above, the overall image's contrast is lower. To archive a more desirable balance of contrast you'd likely need to process it, otherwise the entire image will look relatively duller than the normal profile.

In short, a log video profile like D-Cinelike can give you worse out-of-camera results, but better processing latitudes.
2019-4-5
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DJDream
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fans3a9eb1e1 Posted at 4-5 03:53
The difference between a log video profile (which is what D-Cinelike is) as opposed to the mostly linear Rec. 709 standard is:
* It gives more details in the highlights and the shadows, allowing for fewer areas in the image that are completely white or black. That means brighter areas become slightly darker and darker areas become slightly brighter.
* Because of the above, the overall image's contrast is lower. To archive a more desirable balance of contrast you'd likely need to process it, otherwise the entire image will look relatively duller than the normal profile.

Thank you for your reply,
If so, it looks to me a format similar with RAW on the photography area.
The off-camera results are not as good as the JPG but using postprocessing, you can reach much better results than the off-camera JPG.
D-CineLide is comparable with RAW ?
2019-4-5
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David_Harry
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The main problem with any log gamma is that you are going to record a noisier picture compared to 709 because you're not using the entire dynamic range, if the system is inherently 709, after you inevitably grade the picture to look right for 709. When I say to look right what I mean is the typical gamma levels that you'd expect when watching 709 material, black looks black not grey and white looks white not some off variant.
Most of these things usually look quite bad because most people don't have the expertise to grade. They usually end up grading and making things look crushed or blown out as they strive to make their washed out image look better with a typical 709 gamma/colour space response. I've been working in video post for over 20 years and am still to see anyone other than an experienced colourist make a grade look correct. Any time I try it just looks like a mess, because it's a job that requires a skill I don't have.

Most people are better shooting with a standard 709 gamma response as most inexperienced grades end up making a log variant look like a crushed/blown 709 anyway.

However. You also have to take on board that every version of a log curve is different from manufacturer to manufacturer. CineLike VS S-log3,2,1 or whatever, all look different, it's just someone's opinion of a log curve. Some log curves are not bad to look at, as is, and may well be a look that works without a grade. It may still look a little light at either end, but may give a pleasing mid tone detail that's worth forgoing the incorrect top and bottom.

I personally think that the Pocket's log curve is quite pleasing as is, in a certain exposure range. But that is strictly a taste thing.

Cheers,
Dave.
2019-4-5
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DJDream
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David_Harry Posted at 4-5 04:49
The main problem with any log gamma is that you are going to record a noisier picture compared to 709 because you're not using the entire dynamic range, if the system is inherently 709, after you inevitably grade the picture to look right for 709. When I say to look right what I mean is the typical gamma levels that you'd expect when watching 709 material, black looks black not grey and white looks white not some off variant.
Most of these things usually look quite bad because most people don't have the expertise to grade. They usually end up grading and making things look crushed or blown out as they strive to make their washed out image look better with a typical 709 gamma/colour space response. I've been working in video post for over 20 years and am still to see anyone other than an experienced colourist make a grade look correct. Any time I try it just looks like a mess, because it's a job that requires a skill I don't have.

Thank you Dave,
By "I personally think that the Pocket's log curve is quite pleasing as is, in a certain exposure range. But that is strictly a taste thing." do you mean that you prefer to use the Normal Mode instead of the D-Cinelike?
I am not experienced also in this field and I would like to find if the D-Cinelike would give me at the end a better quality of video compared with the regular Normal mode.
I was able to grade very nice low light shots using D-Cinelike, but I am not sure if the result was as good as I was shot the same video in the normal mode...
On the daylight, most of the time I got much better results with a Normal profile than a graded D-Cinelike video, so I am little bit confuse how to use my device...
Maybe I didn't find yet the best LUT for grading in the daylight.
Does anyone know a good LUT for this propose?
2019-4-5
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David_Harry
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DJDream Posted at 4-5 06:39
Thank you Dave,
By "I personally think that the Pocket's log curve is quite pleasing as is, in a certain exposure range. But that is strictly a taste thing." do you mean that you prefer to use the Normal Mode instead of the D-Cinelike?
I am not experienced also in this field and I would like to find if the D-Cinelike would give me at the end a better quality of video compared with the regular Normal mode.

Hi.

My recommendation to anyone is to shoot in normal mode if they're not sure what an altered gamma curve if for.

As for LUTs. I don't know why people seem to think they need them. There's a lot of misinformation about the web regarding LUTs and people who make out that they know what they're talking about.

A LUT is not a magic bullet and is not designed by its nature to 'grade' footage. The primary use of a LUT is to apply a bunch of specific parameters to a film/video file that would usually expose/colour it correctly to a specific colour space. Yes, you could turn something into a preset and use it for quick swathes of changes for similar footage you've shot or 'looks' to stuff you've already done. But LUT parameters for one person, or even one shot, will be quite specific to the characteristics of that footage or shot, exposure, curves etc. So simply throwing a LUT preset from one person's footage to another persons, even if shot with the same camera, will only make sense if the shooting parameters and conditions were the same.

For anyone interested, I'd recommend not browsing general forums such as this one for information on grading. Buy a good book or web resource to understand the whole process. I know a lot about such things and what I know is far from enough to give any advice other than simple technical overviews of such things.

Like I said before, these things are only properly done by people who have spent many years doing such things. Just because people have tools in front of them it doesn't mean they can use them without learning and with experience over time.

I've been editing for over 25 years, but it doesn't make me an editor. Or put it this way. I can crack a few eggs and make an omelette but it doesn't make me a chef.

Cheers,
Dave.
2019-4-5
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DJI Tony
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Hi, thanks for the inquiry. D-Log is a greyscale mode created for post-production. D-Log mode can provide higher dynamic range, more scene details, and lowest contrast and sharpness, which offers more color editing freedom. Log mode is also the standard for film and television industry processes. D-Cinelike makes the image look like a cinema with a Lookup Table (LUT) that contains a mathematical formula for modifying an image. If users do not want to adjust the color themselves. D-Cinelike mode would be a good choice. Normal mode is to record videos or images in regular Rec.709, suitable for basic situations where coloring is not required. The color in this mode is standard and there is no stylization tendency. Hope that this information would help you in regards to your query. Thank you for your support.
2019-4-5
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DJDream
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DJI Tony Posted at 4-5 09:03
Hi, thanks for the inquiry. D-Log is a greyscale mode created for post-production. D-Log mode can provide higher dynamic range, more scene details, and lowest contrast and sharpness, which offers more color editing freedom. Log mode is also the standard for film and television industry processes. D-Cinelike makes the image look like a cinema with a Lookup Table (LUT) that contains a mathematical formula for modifying an image. If users do not want to adjust the color themselves. D-Cinelike mode would be a good choice. Normal mode is to record videos or images in regular Rec.709, suitable for basic situations where coloring is not required. The color in this mode is standard and there is no stylization tendency. Hope that this information would help you in regards to your query. Thank you for your support.

Thank you Tony,
As a part of the DJI staff, can you please recommend on a specific LUT for the owners of the Osmo Pocket who would like to use the D-Cinelike mode but doesn't know how to create a proper LUT by themselves.
I think that it would be very useful and many of the Osmo Pocket customers would appreciate it.
2019-4-5
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Satureyes
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I might add something here - I am prepared to be told I'm wrong - but I think you are being ill-advised by DJI and also being sold on something that doesn't exist in the Osmo Pocket.

D-Cinemalike is nothing like raw. It’s not a proper ‘flat’ profile.

Don’t listen to anyone who says so. It’s just a colour profile. Some people (like me) prefer the less saturated look and possibly add a few minor tweaks in edit to the colour but please don’t think this is the key to ‘cinematic’ shots or colour grading godliness.

The camera doesn’t output files with enough colour information to properly grade. It does make the dynamic range a little greater and it won’t help the light or darkness. You may perceive the shadows being lifted but it’s just a colour profile. It’s not anything else. It can't put information there that just isn't there - like not even able to be recorded so you can't put data in the place where there's no data.

Technically it does nothing other than tweak the contrast/saturation etc. You could get the same ‘look’ from the standard profile but the processing is done in camera rather than on your edit suite. It’s more important to get the shot correctly exposed when you shoot. Any big grades on any of the profile will likely destroy the footage.

Don’t be swept into the talk of LUTS and all that. A LUT is just a preset that is applied to a 'flat' profile which creates a building block from a base standard. It's really just a preset too. When you shoot in cinema DNG Raw or prores RAW or something with a high bitrate / colour depth then you can indeed change the flat log profile to something greater by using LUT's as a starting block.

There has become a bit of a fashion to think that 'if I shoot something with all the contrast set to low etc, and it looks grey then it's going to grade easily and it makes me look super professional'

I can assure you - working with a proper flat profile is not for the feint hearted. Least of all because you have to know if your shots are exposed or not. YOu'd then need to run the feed into a monitor that would apply a LUT preset to the footage to give you an approximation of how it would look with a grade on it. Complex - and clearly above the knowledge base of people who are buying an Osmo Pocket.

I’m sure someone will start to argue against this but- this is a consumer camera. The bit rate and colour data just are not there or robust enough to be graded properly.
Nothing like a raw file which is pure digital information which is much easier to adjust. Trust me- get it right in camera and your life will be easier when it comes to editing.
2019-4-7
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eldeegee
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Well i half-agree with you guys here . Right D-cinelike is absolutely not a flat profile or something. But i do use allot of LUTS on my footage. Like said here before.. its not simple, just drag and drop a LUT from another filmmaker over you footage and your done. But i see it as a good starting point. Find a LUT that matches your footage nicely, and start grading from there. Also noted above, its just a preset.
2019-4-7
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Jakab Gipsz
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See this:
2019-4-7
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DJI Tony
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DJDream Posted at 4-5 09:39
Thank you Tony,
As a part of the DJI staff, can you please recommend on a specific LUT for the owners of the Osmo Pocket who would like to use the D-Cinelike mode but doesn't know how to create a proper LUT by themselves.
I think that it would be very useful and many of the Osmo Pocket customers would appreciate it.

Hi, thanks for the prompt reply. As we don't have an official LUT for Osmo Pocket that we could offer to our valued customers like you, I'm afraid that we couldn't provide third-party LUT as we can't be guaranteed if this would be a helpful source into the video. However, we will consider this as a suggestion to see if we could provide an official LUT from DJI that you could use on your Osmo Pocket. Thank you for understanding.
2019-4-8
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David_Harry
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DJI Tony Posted at 4-8 12:43
Hi, thanks for the prompt reply. As we don't have an official LUT for Osmo Pocket that we could offer to our valued customers like you, I'm afraid that we couldn't provide third-party LUT as we can't be guaranteed if this would be a helpful source into the video. However, we will consider this as a suggestion to see if we could provide an official LUT from DJI that you could use on your Osmo Pocket. Thank you for understanding.

Hi Tony.

A fairly standard decoder LUT would be for bringing the log version into a normal rec. 709 look. This would at least apply the right decoder parameters and then users could take it from there.

Cheers,
Dave.
2019-4-8
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markr041
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David_Harry Posted at 4-8 13:31
Hi Tony.

A fairly standard decoder LUT would be for bringing the log version into a normal rec. 709 look. This would at least apply the right decoder parameters and then users could take it from there.

1. The above is sensible, and correct.

2. My *experience* with shooting video with the Osmo Pocket is that Cinelike D handles highlights much better than the standard color, whatever its full properties. I have posted a number of graded videos, in bright sunlight and at night using Cinelike D, and I am pleased with the results.

3. The Mauro LUTs in the above posted video are for stylized looks; they are NOT for achieving realistic or REC709-like color. I personally find them ugly and/or pretentious. But others can disagree.

4. I use a LUT designed to provide standard color, but retaining the better highlight handling. It is found here:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mv ... IKE+OSMO+Pocket.zip


2019-4-8
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David_Harry
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markr041 Posted at 4-8 17:32
1. The above is sensible, and correct.

2. My *experience* with shooting video with the Osmo Pocket is that Cinelike D handles highlights much better than the standard color, whatever its full properties. I have posted a number of graded videos, in bright sunlight and at night using Cinelike D, and I am pleased with the results.

Yes, too many people think a LUT is a magic bullet without understanding what they are actually designed for and downloading someone else's 'looks' is only going to be good for the person who created them and for the particular shots they used them for.

Plus, and while you can get something out of the curves used in a 8 bit 4:2:0 encode, there simply isn't really enough dynamic range and information in there to do a proper flat recording. That's not to say that these Log interpretations aren't useful, they are, but when most people don't actually understand what it's all for, it's debatable as to how these things help most people.

A rec.709 start off decoder LUT would be a good idea but I'd hazard guess that due to the absence of one so far, and from what I understand that Cine one has been around for some time before the Pocket, I doubt we'll ever get beyond lip service with DJI.

2019-4-8
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cosmic68
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markr041 Posted at 4-8 17:32
1. The above is sensible, and correct.

2. My *experience* with shooting video with the Osmo Pocket is that Cinelike D handles highlights much better than the standard color, whatever its full properties. I have posted a number of graded videos, in bright sunlight and at night using Cinelike D, and I am pleased with the results.

Actually these aren't too bad! Did you create them yourself? Or have any more?

I've been trying to learn to correct and grade a bit for awhile and get varying results.

I understand the very basics plus limitations of the camera, but still enjoy doing it and these are the first LUTs I've come across that look anywhere half decent (nothing to do with the LUT, but more my inexperience).
2019-5-3
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Satureyes
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If anyone is interested - I just did a quick edit of some stuff shot in D-Cinelike and edited down on FCPX.
All shot on manual 4k 50p but output 24p in HD. Some shots cropped in too. Used Polar Pro ND filters on the outdoor stuff.

2019-5-4
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marctronixx
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^^^^ NICE WORK!!!!!
2019-5-4
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The General
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I read everything, and sorry if I missed the answer to this exact question...

If I'm definitely going to use a LUT before exporting, is there a definite answer of whether I should shoot in normal color or D-Cinalike?

Videos seem to come out great when using one of the random LUTS above, and some shots look pretty good even if no LUTs are used shooting in D-Cine, but I am wondering if there is a consensus of if you know you'll use a LUT if you should definitely shoot in one color profile or the other with the Osmo Pocket.

Thanks all, and maybe I'll be confident enough to post a few random clips on here I've made recently.
2019-5-13
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Curt1591
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The General Posted at 5-13 21:56
I read everything, and sorry if I missed the answer to this exact question...

If I'm definitely going to use a LUT before exporting, is there a definite answer of whether I should shoot in normal color or D-Cinalike?

Since "D-Cinelike" is simply a "flat" profile, it's really down to a personal preference. You'll just have to use whatever and choose based on your own experience.
2019-5-13
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Udo13
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Dave and Satureyes,
I agree with you. It is not so easy D-Cinemalike recordings to edit properly in the video editing program with LUTs!
2019-5-14
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The General
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Udo13 Posted at 5-14 00:23
Dave and Satureyes,
I agree with you. It is not so easy D-Cinemalike recordings to edit properly in the video editing program with LUTs!

Well, LUTs are great for complete beginners like myself. My footage seems average, and then I can easily apply a LUT to give it a totally different look without having to do much else. Again, would love to be better at editing, but haven't been able to put in the time to learn it yet, and LUTs are a 'magic bullet' in a way for me, as there is no way I could have tweaked my footage to look the way it does without them.

I'm sure I'll get better and be able to have more control over how it comes out, but for now it's nice to just see it totally transformed with the click of a button.
2019-5-14
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Xav42
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The General Posted at 5-14 01:20
Well, LUTs are great for complete beginners like myself. My footage seems average, and then I can easily apply a LUT to give it a totally different look without having to do much else. Again, would love to be better at editing, but haven't been able to put in the time to learn it yet, and LUTs are a 'magic bullet' in a way for me, as there is no way I could have tweaked my footage to look the way it does without them.

I'm sure I'll get better and be able to have more control over how it comes out, but for now it's nice to just see it totally transformed with the click of a button.

Do you finally shot in D-Cinelike or in normal mode to apply your LUT ?
2019-6-22
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fansef75c60d
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Hi all, I just acquired my Phantom 4 Pro from a Hong Kong seller on eBay selling German stock which had no image transmission issues and had to be returned twice to DJI Holland under warranty before it was finally replaced some 3 months later. Absolute bargain now considering it only cost £720 BNIB. Now am learning to fly it with competence and concentrating mainly on that. My camera setting are all pretty much to my preference with the exception of video colour n style suitable for no Post. I find Normal colour/Style 0/-2/-1 close for straight from camera viewing. I suspect that the Normal setting is probably more battery efficient than D Cinelike however I would need to up the contrast n maybe saturation to +1 to give me good straight from camera results.
Anyone with thoughts on setting colour/style as close to what is viewed by eye without post production?
2019-6-26
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alk
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DJI Tony Posted at 2019-4-5 09:03
Hi, thanks for the inquiry. D-Log is a greyscale mode created for post-production. D-Log mode can provide higher dynamic range, more scene details, and lowest contrast and sharpness, which offers more color editing freedom. Log mode is also the standard for film and television industry processes. D-Cinelike makes the image look like a cinema with a Lookup Table (LUT) that contains a mathematical formula for modifying an image. If users do not want to adjust the color themselves. D-Cinelike mode would be a good choice. Normal mode is to record videos or images in regular Rec.709, suitable for basic situations where coloring is not required. The color in this mode is standard and there is no stylization tendency. Hope that this information would help you in regards to your query. Thank you for your support.

May I ask how many stops of dynamic range can the Mavic Air capture in D-Cinelike?
2020-4-21
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Salamifish
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Hi for those of you, using Davinci Resolve, I programmed a tool to easily convert DJI DCinelike (and also DLog and DLog-M) into other better known colour spaces. These tools are either dctls (written code) or extracted LUTs out of this code for using it also for instance in Adobe Premiere Lumitri. Those tools can convert DCinelike, DLog and DLog-M footage either into Rec709 or HDR but also into a known log format which is produced by the Arri Alexa camera, the most popular camera out there. If somebody needs another custom colourspace, just shoot me an email and I can certainly also build such a thing, for instance for GoPro, Panasonic GH5, Sony Alpha to grade those cameras along with your DJI drone footage. Note that this tool does technically conversions into known defined colourspaces so that you can do your colourgrading or your filmluts after that.

https://salamifish.com/product/salamifish-dji-transform-hdr/     

https://salamifish.com/product/salamifish-dji-transform-hdr-lut-alternative/


1-3 09:11
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djiuser_Ap1EFjRpivJZ
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hello all how i get D-Cinelike CINEMATIC Color Grading ?
4-1 12:59
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Ranjan
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D-Cinelike preserves shadows, highlights, and mid-tones, which, after being color graded, makes the footage look great.




Read here for more understanding.


6-12 09:44
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