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Sour attitudes of some experienced drone pilots here.
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Sigmo
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Years ago, back in the early '60s, I learned about photography from my father.  He taught me how to use a camera and how to develop film and make prints in the darkroom he built into the house where I grew up.  Over the years I got more into it all, and when I was about 13 I mowed lawns and earned enough money to buy my first SLR.  Over a few years, I got a job as a photographer with the local newspaper and earned enough from that to buy more cameras, lenses, etc.

And over all of that time, if you wanted to get "good" photos, you had to learn quite a bit and put some effort and money into the hobby or profession.  The average person could buy an "instamatic" and get photos, but nothing that was really excellent.  So you had to put in time and effort and "pay your dues", as it were, if you wanted to really make good photographic images.  That's just the way it was.

SLRs and the like were not sold to much of anyone except camera nerds or rich folks who might have ended up still getting bad photos because they didn't want to take the time to really learn the technical details necessary to make good images.

Then around about 1976, Canon introduced the AE-1.  This camera was an SLR, but it had automatic exposure built in!  This was revolutionary and this was the first "serious" camera that was marketed towards the mass public.  I thought at the time that it might never be a success, but I was wrong!  Canon sold over a million of them.  And more people than ever were able to make very good photographs!

Fast forward a bit, and the annoyingly brilliant folks at Canon introduced autofocus lenses and a new lens mount (EF).  That meant that even more clueless losers could now make good images by just throwing some money at the whole thing.  And again, Canon was highly successful!  The bums!

So my camera nerd snobbery was being chipped away at by these automated cameras that allowed newbies and fools to get great pictures.  How annoying!

Fast forward even more, and fully automated digital cameras ("Point and Shoots") became ubiquitous.  And now we have phones with cameras so great that they put good photos and videos into almost everyone's reach.

And you know what?  I've come to LOVE the fact that virtually anyone can make a great photo or video because I benefit by seeing all of those fantastic pictures of almost anywhere and anything.  It has made it possible for people who just happen to have a "good eye" or flair for art (or luck) to make great images.  There's nothing wrong with that, and we all benefit.

Now, switching gears.

Back in the day, my father built basla wood control-line airplanes and we'd fly them and have a great time.  This all took a lot of time, effort, skill, learning, etc.   And it was a fun hobby/sport.  Then RC aircraft came out.  I had friends who were great at flying them but I never learned, and would likely be a total menace if I took the controls!  Then RC helicopters came out.  But you had to be REALLY good to fly one of those!  No automation whatsoever.  You were, effectively, a real helicopter pilot, or even more because you had no "seat of the pants" feel and feedback on which to rely.

So folks who could build and/or fly them were amazing!

Then came multi-prop gadtgets, and again, this was a hobbiest thing.  You had to build it all yourself and perhaps program things and do a lot of design to make something new and interesting.

And now, largely because of DJI and their ilk, any fool with some money to throw at it can have a "drone".  They virtually fly themselves.  No real skill required!

Well that's disappointing, isn't it?

After putting in years learning all of the ins and outs, and working so hard at things, suddenly some kid gets a drone for Christmas, and he's right up there flying and makiing incredible videos and still images that only a few years ago were the exclusive realm of the UAV "nerds" who put in the time and paid their dues!  That just sucks!

Anyhow, I get the feeling from some of the folks who post here that they're quite bitter about all of this.  And believe me, I get it!  I went through the same thing, although it probably happened more slowly to us photo nerds than it has to the UAV nerds.

I'm not sure I have much of a point here, except:  Just accept things, and try to enjoy it all.

And try hard to be understanding.  Yeah, there are a lot of us snot-nosed newbies out here doing stupid things that we really should know better than.  But realize that many of us have only a few weeks of experience with all of this.  And certainly, we've "stood on the shoulders of giants", as it were, to have the capabilities that we're enjoying.

I'm grateful for all of the efforts that have gone into this hobby to bring the technology to the point that even a dummy like me can afford to own and can (somewhat) fly something as magical as one of these little Minis.

And I do look up to those of you who have a lot of experience with all of this, and I do appreciate your insights, advice, and help.

But lighten up, Fancis!  ;)


1-24 22:49
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DINGO DOWN UNDA
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Great words... and you put a lot of thought into what you said...well done !!!
1-24 23:53
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HomePoint
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"Have you even read the manual!"
1-25 01:41
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Ingo Sundowner
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Well said, thanks
1-25 01:55
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Akirasho
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... until I met the man with no feet...
1-25 02:08
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JJB*
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Hiya,

Nicely spoken, love the "snot-nosed newbies"  qualification.  

I think the main problem is that some newbies do not read the manual, do not understand how it is to fly safely with a 99% chance of a happy landing after each beginners flight....
But i agree ; it is not up to the not-beginners members to shout and call others 'fool, idiots, *.*' etc etc.Personally i do not believe in the rude way of adressing faults to others, just clarify what happend and how it can be avoided for next flights. (sometimes after buying a new drone...)

If all the beginners read this forum thoroughly, and perform always pre- and after takeoff checks and understand the theory behind flying a drone ; more drones would land always to a happy owner.

cheers
JJB




1-25 04:53
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jyc
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I think this is the best post I've read in this forum.
1-25 05:04
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hallmark007
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I think a generalization of some experienced drone pilots shows a real ignorance on your part, maybe point to these drone pilots and their lack of real attention to new users.
I actually think this forum is a great source of learning to fly drones pitfalls and all, and there is real understanding for new users as well as telling it straight.
I see very few here who are not here to help .
1-25 05:12
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Labroides
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Sour attitudes of some experienced drone pilots here
Anyhow, I get the feeling from some of the folks who post here that they're quite bitter about all of this.  


Since you recently replied to me with the words: But you make a good point, even if done in an unfriendly way.

... I read your opus, wondering if you were referring to me.

First I would suggest that the point I made was neither made in an unfriendly way or a friendly way.
It was just pointing out an opinion on what you suggested.

Maybe you were including me in your thread title, maybe not.

But I'll offer another opinion .. (again in neither a friendly or unfriendly manner).
If there are experienced flyers here that you think are exhibiting a "sour attitude", I doubt it's because they are oldtimers that did it the hard way and are resenting new flyers that have it so easy.
All of the experienced flyers that I'm guessing you mean, learned to fly on fairly modern DJI drones that incorporated excellent technology.
What you are identifying as sourness is probably just a lack of excitement, when they answer the same questions they've already answered a hundred times before.



1-25 05:25
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Francoisd
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JJB* Posted at 1-25 04:53
Hiya,

Nicely spoken, love the "snot-nosed newbies"  qualification.  

Nothing more to say, you're absolutely right !

Although @Sigmo, you're right to remind experienced pilots that they have been beginners too and they sometimes certainly made mistakes   (I am one of those RC helicopters flyers from more than 10 years ago who had to really learn how to fly and crashed machines because of "youngness" :p )
1-25 05:26
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JodyB
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I don't think @Sigmo meant this as a personal attack on any one particular person. I agree with him to a point. There are or I should say there was a few on here that made me not want to come on the forum for a little while. That was prior to the release of the last firmware and the geo unlock feature getting squared away. Seems a lot of the sour grapes kind of disappeared after that. I do think this forum is a great place to learn, full of folks that know their stuff and I'm grateful they are here and feel blessed because of their knowledge. I'm not a newbie, I have flown RC both planes and heli's, and the drone is a different cat all together, but I still have a lot to learn too and I hope I continue to grow in my knowledge as well, for my own benefit and also so that I might be able to pass it along too.
1-25 06:15
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hallmark007
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JodyB Posted at 1-25 06:15
I don't think @Sigmo meant this as a personal attack on any one particular person. I agree with him to a point. There are or I should say there was a few on here that made me not want to come on the forum for a little while. That was prior to the release of the last firmware and the geo unlock feature getting squared away. Seems a lot of the sour grapes kind of disappeared after that. I do think this forum is a great place to learn, full of folks that know their stuff and I'm grateful they are here and feel blessed because of their knowledge. I'm not a newbie, I have flown RC both planes and heli's, and the drone is a different cat all together, but I still have a lot to learn too and I hope I continue to grow in my knowledge as well, for my own benefit and also so that I might be able to pass it along too.

I do understand what your saying but when you generalize about a group it tends to include all .
1-25 06:52
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JodyB
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hallmark007 Posted at 1-25 06:52
I do understand what your saying but when you generalize about a group it tends to include all .

Absolutley, but the title does say "some" experienced drone pilots and not all. I'm not in the mind of knowing which some that was referred to, so I do feel a blanket coverage is implied. Kind of like saying "Since we're talking about the elephant in the room here." or "you should know who you are without me having to call names and cause a scene." kind of thing. I don't take anything personal from it, but it makes me think of that special someone who griped about DJI and anyone that had anything to say about it a while back that I had issues with that I wish I handled differently. But that's just me.
1-25 07:20
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Dirty Bird
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"I can't be bothered to read the manual or quick start guide.  How do I turn this thing on?"

"When I push the left stick the drone goes left.  How do I make it go right when I push left?"

"My drone was lost at sea & DJI Care won't replace it.  What a ripoff!"

"I climbed to 1200' in 30 mph winds & my Mini flew away!  DJI drones are junk!"

"Why doesn't RTH do xxx?"  Because it doesn't.  "But I want it to."  Sorry it doesn't work that way.  "Yeah, but I want it to!"


It's like when a buddy calls up with a simple computer issue.  You say, "Go to the Control Panel" & they reply "What's a Control Panel?"  Or my favorite, "Right-click on xxx"  & they say, "I'm clicking but it doesn't work."  "RIGHT-click!"  You assume they at least have a rudimentary understanding of how to operate a computer.  You don't expect the need to explain the computer equivalent of opening a door.  It can be a bit frustrating.

Then there is the difficulty of determining tone & inflection in written comments.  You can't always tell if something is said in jest, or with a touch of sarcasitc irony.  This confusion leads to many misunderstandings in written communication.  I do not advocate beating someone down needlessly for mistakes, but sometimes people do things so inexplicably stupid & senseless that a bit of shame & humilation is warranted.  It can serve as a valuable lesson & can make them a better person, or pilot in this case.   

As a society we used to know this.  It's just common sense.  It kept societies in order for thousands of years.  We have become so soft & coddling, so intent not to offend, that we now applaud destructive & irresponsible behavior.  We distribute welfare benefits through "Independence" cards.  Colleges & universities provide "Safe Spaces" & deny 1st Amendment rights so young adults (?) can be protected from "offensive" speech that might hurt their feelings or challenge their worldview.  Not only are we expected to tolerate the fantasies of mentally ill individuals, but it is demanded that society as a whole become active participants in the delusion.  In some places one can be fined or imprisoned for refusal to comply!

I try to offer help, advice, & my thoughts on topics where I can.  I'm not a PC person.  I call things the way I see them & I can be blunt at times.




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1-25 10:21
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The Saint
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excellent post, I completely agree.  I feel the same way but I have been unable to find the words to convey those feelings.  glad you are able to post this but I'm sure it won't change anything.  as you said,  it's a generational thing.  sour may not be the right word, I would go farther than that.
1-25 11:06
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DJI Stephen
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Hello and good day Sigmo. Thank you for sharing your insights with regards to this matter and for sharing your experience as well. This thread that you have created will be a very big help and guide to all of us DJI drone owners. Again thank you for your valued support and have a safe and a happy flying always.
1-25 12:31
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oldhasbeen
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my journey through technology and especially electronics started with vacuum tubes - that is long ago on the human scale but nothing on the evolutionary time line. I have spent a little fortune crashing those helis which were only hand controlled. No stabilization whatsoever.
Those purist "experienced" pilots who regard RTH as something only for newbies and feel that only "manual" control is the mature way are kidding themselves. No human could ever control the four motors of a quad simultaneously. There is no such thing as "manual control" of a quad. It is already highly automated even at the most "primitive" level.
We are on a big journey guys - a really big one.
1-25 14:45
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AntDX316
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I'm grateful for DJI making the drones reliable enough to actually do work over sensitive areas w/o issues of it crashing.  DIY drones like how they used to be back in 2016 were difficult to get the jello out, you had to custom like crazy just to get a position, the feed was horrible, the range was horrible, the flight time was horrible, etc.  Now everything flies super-efficient that completely dwarfs many other methods such as flying wings, RC planes, RC helis, etc.  Imo, when better methods supersede you just cannot go back.  I don't have the capacity to be able to know everything.  If you just know what the best methods are and how to improvise w/ or w/o, that is all you need to know.  You don't need to know the wrong answers of a multiple-choice question.  You don't need to know the wrong ways on how to do something.  If you just know how to do it properly and nothing else you will always seek that but in today's world, what people teach isn't always complete or what they teach is out of date or it's just totally wrong which leads to dire consequences.  There is only so much we can do in life and accepting with satisfaction may only be what people have that could actually be correct as there was no way to know and implement certain methods before things became too late no matter what anybody says or thinks otherwise.
1-25 15:22
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Sigmo
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You folks have all brought up a lot of excellent points!

It IS hard to judge the intent and feeling behind a post because we're just reading written words.  If we were together shooting the breeze, we'd be able to judge body language, tone of voice, and presumably know the people better. That all goes a long way toward helping with communication and avoiding unwarranted offense.

And I'm with those of you who are not thrilled by the snowflake culture that's so prevalent these days to the point of the "offended" becoming the truly intolerant fascists, not allowing opposing viewpoints to even be spoken for fear of offending someone else or being offended themselves.  If your ideas can't stand up to scrutiny and questioning, then they may well be bad ideas.  I'm actually quite a redneck if you want to know!

And I've participated in a number of forums over the years, so I understand the frustration people feel when answering the same questions over and over and over!  What I've seen done in one great forum by some of the members is to create a Wiki that they can refer people to so they don't have to type things repeatedly, especially very technical things that really do require some study to understand and effort to write up in an accurate and clear way.

Another thing I've seen people do is to create a "canned" Welcome Message that they post in reply to many of the new people's all-too-common initial questions.  That makes it less tiresome for them to provide some great advice and links as well as welcome the new forum user in a friendly way.

Further, I realize that I can be too "thin-skinned" at times, taking words as being an angry, unwarranted attack when they may not have been meant that way at all.  So I can do better myself.

This thread was NOT aimed at anyone in particular.  It's something I've been thinking about for at least a month as I try to evaluate why it is that some people do seem angry on here.

It dawned on me that it might be a sense of frustration with folks who obviously have not "paid their dues".  This seemed particularly true with some of the posts addressing people who have just lost their drone.  I've seen a number of recent posts made by people who have just lost their drone, but it's obvious that they've also read the forum for a while because they start their posts by admitting and acknowledging that it was their own fault.

They just want to get some followup advice or even some commiseration and understanding.  And STILL, some people respond to them as if they didn't even bother to read the OP's post (where they admit and accept full blame) and they chastise them and tell them (as if this was news) that it was all their fault.

So it seems like some of these posts are a hair-trigger response by someone who is sick of reading the endless "I lost my drone" threads, and even seem happy that the person lost their drone because it's a fitting punishment for whatever perceived crime the newbie committed.  There's no need to take glee in someone's loss of their drone.  And there's no need to "rub it in" after they already admitted that it was their own fault.  Sometimes it seems like maybe there's a bit of behind the keyboard alcohol consumption involved if you know what I mean!

BUT:

I have a great friend who, when I first met him, I thought was the biggest horses' behind I'd ever met.  And I do mean EVER!  I was working on a project for a client, and this guy worked for that client and I had to work directly with him on the development of this gadget and various software to go with it.  This is a long story, but suffice it to say that as we worked together, I came to understand that this guy just doesn't have the normal social skills and filters one expects.  But he's brilliant!  And his unvarnished input was invaluable,  and his ability to isolate sequences of events that lead to a crash or bug in a program is uncanny.  He stared out hating computers, but after a while became a consummate computer nerd!  And he'd give you the shirt off of his back to help you.  He's just an ass....  Does that make any sense at all?  The people who take the time to get to know him are great friends.  Those who don't get that opportunity universally hate the guy.

Another example is another forum I value highly and participate in often.  It is owned and run by a guy who is incredibly knowledgeable about the subject at hand.  And he puts a tremendous amount of effort into it all, figuring out seriously complex issues for people and posting wonderful advice.  But man, he doesn't abide newbie questions at all.  And we're not talking about just being a bit rude.  He's downright nasty, calling first-time posters *&^%ing idiots, and cursing them up and down.  When I first read some of that forum, I though this guy was the worst.  And he sort of is.  Talk about running people off before they even have a chance.  You haven't seen anything like it on this forum, that's for sure!

But again, he's very helpful and very knowledgeable.  He's just opinionated and short with people.  But I couldn't have accomplished a lot of the things I needed to get done without his help and that of some others on that forum.  And I'll bet he's a great guy to know as a friend, too.  He just doesn't come off that way with many of his posts.  Other people on the forum often chime in to reassure the new folks that they're not alone, and that they need to stick around and get used to things because it will be well worth their time to do so.  And there's more amazing technical advice on that forum than I can believe.  These are some seriously accomplished, helpful, brilliant, and giving folks!

And the same is really true here.  There's so much great knowledge available that it's fantastic.  And it's being shared freely, which is great.

So I'm not new to this sort of thing on a forum.

But I do hope everyone is enjoying their drones and enjoying being on this forum.  Why spend time here if it's not fun?

Something I found many years ago in what was, at the time, the first big digital photography forum, was that people with a lot of knowledge did burn out on answering the same questions over and over.  And the usual response was to "RTFM or do a web search and you can find the answer to your question".  But maybe finding that forum WAS the result of a web search.  And these replies made me wonder why bother even responding to a forum post if you're not going to be enthusiastic and encouraging and actually answer the question?  It takes just about as long to make an unhelpful post as it would to answer the question directly.

But they're not wrong to recommend reading up, really.  So what's going on?

What I came to realize was that evolution likely selected for people to ask their acquaintances how to do things.  Long before we even had written language, people learned by communicating directly with other humans and were taught more directly.  That's not to say that the written word isn't a powerful thing, but reading a manual or doing a web search lacks a social aspect that you only get by asking a question and then interacting back and forth with other people.  It's more personalized, and we learn better this way.  Plus it's fun.  THAT'S the difference between a forum and a library, IMO.

So when someone asks that same question again (sigh) on a forum, if it's something I don't want to answer again for the thousandth time, I might let someone else answer it.  Maybe someone who learned this for themselves not that long ago and they're still enthusiastic about it and anxious to share that newfound knowledge.  Or, if I'm feeling bored and helpful right then, I might explain it.  But I do hate seeing the "RTFM" answer on a forum because that's not what the person came here for.  They wanted some interactive help.  Some give and take.  You know... a forum!

Anyhow, we can all give and take what we want on here or just leave a thread alone if it doesn't interest us.  And I'm not singling anyone out.  Nor am I too delicate to accept a bit of abuse myself.  But don't get upset if I give some back or call you out about it!  Attitude begets attitude.
1-25 21:47
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jonny007
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I have noticed that too. The fact is that most of what self-proclaimed wizards write is actually correct, but that's not the point. It is not what they say but how they say it. And that is sometimes really rude, arrogant and also insulting, which is really s**t. I'm not sure why some are like that. Have they had a bad day? Unsatisfied life? Private or job related problems ? Retired old-fashioned teachers with rigorous parenting methods ? Or a generally aggressive character ? I don't know. Your idea with a wiki is great. In a completely different forum (development of Wherigo cartridges for geocaching), in which I work, there are firstly no single aggressive answers, even if these have already been asked 100 times and secondly there have been a lot fewer requests since there has been a wiki, especially for beginners.  And if there are any questions, they are based on the answers that the wiki has given to them before. The only question is who is involved in a wiki and who is responsible for administration.
1-26 03:22
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Nidge
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Oldskool versus Newskool.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to educate and share knowledge for the benefit of others, but the way it is conveyed and received is just as important. Unfortunately there will always be personalities whom feel it is their duty to convey their information as though they are the oracle of all, do as I say and not as I do. Equally there will always be those whom are purposely unreceptive as the advice offered doesn’t fit their paradigm, very much like Religion opposes many aspects of Science.

Never the less it’s no secret that using technology has got a lot easier over the years, but in the same breath understanding the technology seems to be on the decline. Unfortunately this can lead to some very heated exchanges which we see sometimes within this forum. A prime example is when someone starts a thread about their model crashing. In some cases the unfortunate owner has already made his/her mind up that his/her crash was because “ all DJI products are garbage and this shouldn’t have happened” ( their words not mine), but has chosen to post their experience anyway. Once he/she starts to receive responses that contradict his/her stance he/she immediately goes on the offensive, proclaiming the responder “wasn’t there and they have no right to make such claims”. And so on, and so on.

Buying an off the shelf drone doesn’t suddenly bestow you super powers, but nor does raging on about back in the day when you had to calculate the pitch and whittle your own propellers, that just make you sound like an ass/arse hat.

Live and let live, children are our future, may the seed of your loin grow prosperous in the womb of your woman, Boomshanka.

Nidge.
1-26 04:16
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djiuser_IJ7oTXK2Xt8l
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Sigmo Posted at 1-25 21:47
You folks have all brought up a lot of excellent points!

It IS hard to judge the intent and feeling behind a post because we're just reading written words.  If we were together shooting the breeze, we'd be able to judge body language, tone of voice, and presumably know the people better. That all goes a long way toward helping with communication and avoiding unwarranted offense.

I agree, and apparently a lot of other people do too. In fact, you can tell from the responses who's guilty of the kind of behavior you described. And when a person get to the point where they tend to write a "hair-trigger response by someone who is sick of reading the endless 'I lost my drone' threads'", they probably should take a break from the forum for a while and come back when they can treat others like they would in real life and would want to be treated themselves. Because ultimately we're all real people here and I'm sure those being rude wouldn't want to be treated like that if the roles were reversed.

There's another factor too that I've noticed over the years, and it seems to be universal, or at least I haven't seen it NOT happen on any forum that lasted long enough: those who tend to spend a lot of time on a forum like this tend to develop an exaggerated sense of ownership and become emotionally vested in the posts conforming to what THEY think they should be. The best / worst example of this is StackOverflow, or "SnarkOverflow" as I call it. In one sense it's an extremely successful platform and I get information from it regularly, but I'd never contribute to it because it's such a hostile environment, and if you google it you'll see that many others feel the same way. There is a core group, though, that enjoys the perceived prestige of being considered an expert even if it is only online and is irrelevant the second they walk away from their computer and return to the "real world".

Frankly, I suspect that one day (probably years from now, and maybe even on their deathbeds) that at least some of those people who spend countless hours on these forums will wish they could have back all the time they spent, because once they stop posting, they'll quickly become more or less forgotten and all that time will have essentially been wasted.
1-26 04:47
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InspektorGadjet
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Very good post, I agree the society we live in is getting put of hands, people specially young ones, want the stuff right now! and easy!
In order to master certain skills, one must spend time. Most people don't like this idea.
A pro snowboard friend ones told me "if you want to be a pro at anything, you must practice 8hours a day, if one day you cannot, next day you practice double". This is actually a massive truth and I have experienced it myself, one some of my pupils ask me, basically, how do I get famous quick, I loose faith in human kind, I tell them it took me 15 years before any record label got interested in my music, and they get depressed.
This hobby requires some understanding of physic, weather, mind control, camera moves, patience... some just want to be the cool guy in the neighbour.
This forum helps a lot, I learned crazy amount of stuff here otherwise would make me crash.
Thanks all for the input very interesting post!
1-26 05:55
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Dirty Bird
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This thread should be renamed "Sour Grapes" ...   
1-26 07:27
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120ccpm
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djiuser_IJ7oTXK2Xt8l Posted at 1-26 04:47
I agree, and apparently a lot of other people do too. In fact, you can tell from the responses who's guilty of the kind of behavior you described. And when a person get to the point where they tend to write a "hair-trigger response by someone who is sick of reading the endless 'I lost my drone' threads'", they probably should take a break from the forum for a while and come back when they can treat others like they would in real life and would want to be treated themselves. Because ultimately we're all real people here and I'm sure those being rude wouldn't want to be treated like that if the roles were reversed.

There's another factor too that I've noticed over the years, and it seems to be universal, or at least I haven't seen it NOT happen on any forum that lasted long enough: those who tend to spend a lot of time on a forum like this tend to develop an exaggerated sense of ownership and become emotionally vested in the posts conforming to what THEY think they should be. The best / worst example of this is StackOverflow, or "SnarkOverflow" as I call it. In one sense it's an extremely successful platform and I get information from it regularly, but I'd never contribute to it because it's such a hostile environment, and if you google it you'll see that many others feel the same way. There is a core group, though, that enjoys the perceived prestige of being considered an expert even if it is only online and is irrelevant the second they walk away from their computer and return to the "real world".

Those who tend to spend a lot of time on a forum like this tend to develop an exaggerated sense of ownership and become emotionally vested in the posts conforming to what THEY think they should be.

Very good comment, and very true. Some clearly feel like they must comment on everything because they know everything, and if you have a different opinion, well.... you are wrong.



1-26 07:34
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Dirty Bird
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120ccpm Posted at 1-26 07:34
Those who tend to spend a lot of time on a forum like this tend to develop an exaggerated sense of ownership and become emotionally vested in the posts conforming to what THEY think they should be.

Very good comment, and very true. Some clearly feel like they must comment on everything because they know everything, and if you have a different opinion,well.... you are wrong.

No one knows everything. but many know more than you.

So you are wrong.  Again...  

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1-26 09:54
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oldhasbeen
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you are wrong - mine is bigger than yours!! I know way more than you ever could!
If drone development would be in the same pace as emotional development we might still assemble paper planes as we did as kids.
1-26 14:19
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Sigmo
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Again, great observations from everyone!

jonny007:

To create a good Wiki, we'd need participation from everyone who has the time and the expertise to make it accurate, well written, and easy to navigate for everyone, but especially for newbies.  It would be a big project and take a lot of time and effort.

A lot of people put a lot of effort into this forum as it is.  Hopefully they'd be willing to help develop such a valuable resource and they'd find it to be more productive and better use of their time than having to answer the same questions again and again.

I think a Wiki or other means of having some "stickies" or the sort not only helps beginners, but also helps the folks who contribute a lot here by saving them from the busywork of repeating themselves.  And that frees up time for them to offer the more "targeted" or personalized help that brings people to a forum.

Nidge:

As you say, I do think "how" we write our responses here is important.  And as you also point out, there certainly are folks who we see come on here and complain that they've lost their Mini or had some problem, and then they loudy proclaim that the device is no good, and nothing anyone says to them is going to change their mind.  So there is a lot of bad behavior on THAT end of things, too! This gets back to a point made by Dirty Bird, too.

We do have a lot of people who have been coddled by their parents, teachers, and technology itself who really can be cry-babies.  They've never been taught to take responsibility for themselves.  With everything handed to them so far in life, they're sort of doomed to be sad in the real world because suddenly everything isn't being handed to them with no effort required on their part at all.  So again, I can understand the frustration by many here with that kind of behavior.

And this also brings to mind something I came to realize when participating in the digital photography forums, too.  And that is that with the modern devices being so sophisticated, people don't learn the basics or fundamentals the way they might have in the past.

This is partially because they have no need to learn because the camera does it all for them.  But it also goes beyond that.  What I have realized when teaching (even people my age) is that if they never got to play with old-school cameras, then they've never had the advantages of even seeing what's inside of a camera, much less understanding how they really work.

When I learned photography, I was at my father's side not only watching him take photos, but also in the darkroom as he made prints.  With the old cameras, you had to take them apart to use them.  You saw what a lens was, what a shutter was, what film was or even what a focusing screen was.  So you easily got a gut-feel for how the lens formed the image at the focal plane, and how different types of shutters worked.  You could see and touch them!  And when making prints, you were actually "inside of the camera" as the images were being made.  You focused the image by adjusting the position of the film holder with respect to the lens.  And you adjusted the size of the image by moving the head of the enlarger or selecting a different focal length lens, etc.

When I worked for that newspaper as a photographer back in the early 1970s, we exposed the printing plates (and did other work) with a large line camera.  And that camera was actually two rooms with a wall between them where we'd place the lens!  So you really WERE inside of the camera!  Very fun, and I always thought that a great camera teaching aid would be to recreate that line camera and let the students be inside both the camera side and the "scene" side so they could see and feel it all.

So not only did we HAVE to learn things just to make an image, but we were priveliged to get to see what was going on inside of our cameras.  And this gave us a huge advantage with digital cameras, too, because we had been given a fantastic tour of all that goes on inside of everything.  So it was easier for us to grasp the basics.  And since I was an electronic nerd by then, that helped me understand the electronic and digital side of things.  So I have been lucky in those regards.

We weren't smarter than anyone else.  We were just exposed to the fantastic teaching environment and "props" that were those old cameras and darkroom equipment.  So we were at a huge advantage.

I have a coworker and friend who is getting into photography.  And I end up bringing some of my old manual film SLRs to work because you can open them up and see where the film goes.  And you can take the lens off and flick a lever to make the aperture move, etc.  This is all so much easier to understand when you can hold it in your hand and play with it to see what goes on.  You can hold that lens out in the sunlight and burn ants with it and see how it forms an image very hands-on!

And you can set different shutter speeds, fire it off, and see how the curtains move and get a feel for different shutter speeds and even see how the virtual shutter is formed by a focal plane shutter where, at higher speeds, the opening is just a moving slit, effectively.  So that explains some strange effects you get when photographing fast-moving objects or rapidly panning the camera during a shot, etc.  It'd take a lot of words to explain something that you grasp immediatey when playing with these things hands-on.

I remember being fascinated when watching those films they showed  us using a projector and screen back in junior high school by  something.  When the teacher pulled down the blackout shades in a particular room  so that it would be dark enough to watch a film, one of the shades had a  hole in it.  And you could see, projected on the opposite wall, an  upside down image of the outside world.  The kids playing field hockey or whatever outside (where we all wished we were).  I got in trouble  for staring at that and not the film.  But when I told the teacher what I  was looking at, she shut off the projector and we all looked at it.  We were inside of a "camera obscura".  A large pinhole camera.  I always  remember her taking that opportunity not to send me to the office, but to let everyone gain some amazing scientific understanding.  (Probably a lot better than the film we were watching)!

Kids won't get that opportunity now that they watch videos on a bright TV monitor, will they?

So I know we have to be patient with people who have, in effect, been deprived of the luxury of seeing what goes on inside of things as the technology has hidden the real workings of things more and more.

djiuser_IJ7oTXK2Xt8l

Good points as well.  I do think that people burn out or become fatigued, and that leads to a lot of the frustration that people end up expressing in their posts at times.  Stepping back and trying to take some pleasure from it all is a great help.

I'm not innocent of any of this myself.

I've gotten great information from Stack Overflow, but as you say, I've seen some nasty exchanges there that make me hesitant to actually participate!  So I guess i'm just like you in that respect!

And I hope that all of us can get some true enjoyment out of these forums.  I've seen exactly what you say happen in a number of forums.  It's why I basically stopped (or slowed to about once per year) participating in the one digital photo forum where I'd hung out very actively for many years.  It just got too nasty, particularly from a select few who seemed to revel in causing hate and discontent.

InspektorGadjet

I agree with all you've said.  And getting a glimpse into what you do reminds me of how humbling it is to even read this forum (and many others).  So many fields of expertise.  So many amazing people, all in one place, brought together by one common thing we're trying to learn and get better at.

Initially I joined this forum because I got a Mini and wanted to learn more than what is in the manual.  And I wanted to see what others are doing.  And then I see these incredible videos people have produced, and I'm just in awe.

We have technical expertise in operating a drone. Then while doing that, they're keeping in their mind the story they're trying to create.  And they're being camera dolly operator as well as the cinematographer all at once.  Then they edit their footage and put it to music.  This is NOT trivial stuff!

I'm happy if I can successfully fly the drone and not crash it.  If I can get some video or stills, that's great.  Heck, I flew one of my only daytime outdoor flights, and apparently wasn't even able to know when I was shooting video or not!  I think i've got that figured out now, but it reminded me of some video we shot when we took a family trip to DisneyWorld many years ago.  I got a nice tape where I had the video running while walking with the camera, and then shut it off for the actual scenes I wanted to shoot, then turned it on again while just walking along carrying the camera, then off again for the actual scenes I thought I was shooting!

Push on, push off.  Damn!  Give me a two position switch so I don't get those nice shots of the inside of a camera bag, man!  

And then I see the well conceived, written, choreographed, location-scouted, timed-for-the-light, well-designed, storyboarded, planned, flown, videographed, edited, scored videos people produce, and I know I have a HUGE amount of learning, practice, practice, and more practice ahead of me if I want to achieve anything remotely pleasing!

Heck, I'll be happy if I just don't crash or drop it in the water, actually!  ;)

Dirty Bird:

I hope we're on the same page about a lot of this.  I think we share a lot of the same feelings about a lot of this stuff.  And I have to say that I always like your posts.  Maybe because I'm a gun-totin' redneck from Wyoming here.

Pretty much EVERYONE here knows more than I do about drone flying.  That's for sure!  I always hope I can offer some insight related to my personal experience, but I probably just annoy a lot of the folks here who already know what I'm trying to say, or know why what I'm suggesting is flat out wrong.

120ccpm:

Again, someone whose posts I enjoy, and with whom, i tend to agree a lot!

oldhasbeen:

Right on!  Technology outpaces our "wisdom", that's for darn sure!

--------------------

I hope this thread isn't a negative thing.  I'll admit that I was getting more frustrated seeing a lot of harsh tone taken in various posts here.  But that doesn't mean that I don't respect everyone who posts or that I don't value their expertise.

Again, I figure if we met up face to face, we'd likely hit it off well.  It's often SO hard to understand how something we see written was intended.  I have a hard time with that, for sure.  And I can take offense when none was intended, so that's my fault.  I probably did that when reading a post by Hallmark a few days ago.

I particularly appreciate seeing the analyses of the flight logs that people are able to provide.  That's always great.  It's like having the NTSB check out the flight recorders after a crash as well as do a forensic analysis of the scene, and then finally, give everyone the answers they need.  We NEED that sort of analysis here.
1-27 02:49
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Cauffy
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Hi,

Great post, and love to see various insight of all hobbies. From first exposure to what will become a passion. The main problem in the last 5-10 yrs it would seem people want instant gratification from whatever they do and don't want to learn the basics first. This certainly seems to apply to drones.

I get it DJI are a business and they are trying to capture all possible marketing opportunities and i don't blame them for that. it's a business at the end of the day.

Before my very first drone i spent weeks reading manuals, watching probably hundreds of videos, and even watched the DJI tutorials, and this great forum, where there truly are some amazing helpful people with huge amounts of experience and knowledge they are willing to share for free

It would seem people don't want to learn these days and gain some valuable knowledge that ultimately will help them enjoy it more... shame really
1-27 05:35
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Jimmy hoffa
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Did someone say heli's? ;) ;)

I know what its all about learning and having patience..  
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2-2 06:24
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JJB*
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Jimmy hoffa Posted at 2-2 06:24
Did someone say heli's? ;) ;)

I know what its all about learning and having patience..

Wow  a picture just before a crash!!   

Must be fun to fly such a heli

cheers
JJB
2-2 06:26
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