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No CE Certification & No AirSense outside the USA
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bjr981s
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El Diabolico Posted at 5-2 06:32
It is a BIG deal and DJI stated that they would have fitted all drones with it but due to Covid-19 they didn’t had enough parts. So it is obviously IMPORTANT. Don’t mind the different lap- dogs trying to convince you otherwise...

I personally will only buy a new DJI product when and if compliant with EU regulations. There’s also the fact that any non-compliant drone in 2 years from now will become a “legacy” product, limited to fly in very specific areas. I want to be able to sell my drones in the future.

Where was it stated by DJI that it was a lack of parts? It's not in this thread only a guess from a member.

i suspect that this is propagating as an urban myth.
5-3 03:09
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sbonev
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bjr981s Posted at 5-3 03:09
Where was it stated by DJI that it was a lack of parts? It's not in this thread only a guess from a member.

i suspect that this is propagating as an urban myth.

always read the small letters if you don't want surprises...

from dji site:

[4] Due to supply chain shortages related to the coronavirus pandemic, Mavic Air 2 units equipped with AirSense ADS-B will initially only be available in North America. A version of Mavic Air 2 will be available outside of North America without ADS-B. The two models are identical in all other aspects such as flight and imaging performance.
5-3 03:18
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bjr981s
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sbonev Posted at 5-3 03:18
always read the small letters if you don't want surprises...

from dji site:

Thanks,

But what does outside of America mean? Does this mean CE countries or other FCC countries outside of USA and Canada?

5-3 03:23
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Ian in London
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bjr981s Posted at 5-3 03:23
Thanks,

But what does outside of America mean? Does this mean CE countries or other FCC countries outside of USA and Canada?

It means "Outside of North America".  That's it.  
So USA & Canada get it; the rest of the world doesn't.....
5-3 03:26
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bjr981s
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Ian in London Posted at 5-3 03:26
It means "Outside of North America".  That's it.  
So USA & Canada get it; the rest of the world doesn't.....

Sarcasm does not suit you. Are you aware that DJI have different web sites for all regions?

I cannot find your posted reference on the AU region website.

Can you post the URL?

Thanks.
  
5-3 03:34
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hallmark007
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bjr981s Posted at 5-3 03:34
Sarcasm does not suit you. Are you aware that DJI have different web sites for all regions?

I cannot find your posted reference on the AU region website.

You’d have to admit What does outside America mean is a pretty definitive statement.

I mean tables turned what answer would you give.
5-3 04:00
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gnirtS
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"Outside North America" to me seems fairly simple, it means outside North America.  I cant see that being confusing at all.
5-3 05:09
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An italian drone news website (quadricottero.com), posted today an article regarding a new drone (not a DJI one) that have the new EASA marking in the battery compartment.
This was found during a review clip by an Italian youtuber.
This is part of the original article, translated in english:
"The new (missing name) that weight less than 250g have the C0 Open Category marking of the EASA drone rules that will be applied from January 2021 instead of July 2020 according the new date decided by the European Commission, but not officialized yet. Most likely the (missing name), it's the first drone to have the C0 marking. That is shown by Michele Pesole - Addicted 2 Tech (that we thank for the pictures) during a review on Youtube.
P.S. I've deleted the name because it's a DJI competitor and I don't know if I can write it


classe c0.jpg
(Source Michele Pesole - Addicted 2 Tech from YouTube)

So, the question is have the EU made the EASA drone cassification guidelines available only for C0 category? If yes, ok. If not, it means that all the classes (from C0 to C4) already have the needed guidelines to omologate the drones.
COVID-19 obviously slowed down the bureaucratic side of pretty everything, so probably DJI to respect the product release timetable had to skip this thing, but seeing this mark on competitor product, make my think about it.....

IF that label is not faked by the drone maker!

But I don't think, because why risk heavy penalties for a label that, in the end, for this class of drones doesn't change a thing (remember that even if the Mini don't come with C0 marking, it stays in that class forever, because under 250g)

What's your thoughts?


Sources: www.quadricottero.com

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCki3CEFaalrfO1c4YXKSfVw

5-3 05:20
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sbonev
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Luca90 Posted at 5-3 05:20
An italian drone news website (quadricottero.com), posted today an article regarding a new drone (not a DJI one) that have the new EASA marking in the battery compartment.
This was found during a review clip by an Italian youtuber.
This is part of the original article, translated in english:

another prove dji couldn't care less about EU market, it is 1 icon more, not hard to print alongside all the other markings...i guess they'd rather sell you another drone in 2 years than bother marking the new ones that are being sold now.
5-3 05:50
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gnirtS
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Realistically how many people will be flying a drone bought this week in January 2023 anyway?....

FWIW the label could be fake (or just done before certification).  Lots of illegal products come from China with fake CE compliance labels.
5-3 07:56
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg
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gnirtS Posted at 5-3 07:56
Realistically how many people will be flying a drone bought this week in January 2023 anyway?....

FWIW the label could be fake (or just done before certification).  Lots of illegal products come from China with fake CE compliance labels.

The problem is not after 2023. It is already when the new regulations are in place in july 2020 or jan. 2021, because the MA2 with no C1 certificate will fall into category A2 with an aditional restriction of keeping 150m distance from uninvolved people.
5-3 08:57
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sbonev
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gnirtS Posted at 5-3 07:56
Realistically how many people will be flying a drone bought this week in January 2023 anyway?....

FWIW the label could be fake (or just done before certification).  Lots of illegal products come from China with fake CE compliance labels.

you mean drones bought now should not work more than an 2 years??? kind of strange thinking to say the least....
5-3 09:19
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg Posted at 5-3 08:57
The problem is not after 2023. It is already when the new regulations are in place in july 2020 or jan. 2021, because the MA2 with no C1 certificate will fall into category A2 with an aditional restriction of keeping 150m distance from uninvolved people.

Yeah, It falls in A2 (if you have the A2 licence) or in A3 and it becomes very limited. The best is that DJI can gain the C1 now, or for me it loses all the interest...
5-3 09:20
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Luca90
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gnirtS Posted at 5-3 07:56
Realistically how many people will be flying a drone bought this week in January 2023 anyway?....

FWIW the label could be fake (or just done before certification).  Lots of illegal products come from China with fake CE compliance labels.

Talking on FB with a writer of quadricottero.com, he said that the drone maker is one of the most known low price factory, guessing that for the maker faking the marking and risking a penalty is useless, since with or without is quite the same (as I said before, the Mini will be in C0 forever) but who knows....
The best thing to do is asking for the certification directly to the maker....
5-3 09:24
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hallmark007
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg Posted at 5-3 08:57
The problem is not after 2023. It is already when the new regulations are in place in july 2020 or jan. 2021, because the MA2 with no C1 certificate will fall into category A2 with an aditional restriction of keeping 150m distance from uninvolved people.

It won’t it will be considered as a legacy drone if it doesn’t have classification, and just like other drones already on the market it will be given a 2 year moratorium from date of rules coming into force, and although EASA has postponed until December its highly unlikely they will implement rules in the next 12 months. So I’d safely say this drone will be 3 years old by then.
5-3 09:54
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This is really disappointing from DJI. I was about to order a Mavic Air 2, but now I'm no so sure...
5-3 10:39
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hallmark007
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RuralQuad Posted at 5-3 10:39
This is really disappointing from DJI. I was about to order a Mavic Air 2, but now I'm no so sure...

I’m slightly miffed by people who absolutely need ADSB complaining, this is a clear case of covid 19 causing delay with parts, so no way to deliver ADSB with this delivery. Yes a pain, but we are living in a pandemic and dji have said that those needing ADSB will just have to wait until they get parts for it.
So apart from not being able to get the drone in the next couple of weeks , you just need to wait a little longer, If you want with ADSB. You will get it just not now and that’s no ones fault .
And for those who don't care about ADSB well good for them they'll get their drones soon.
5-3 11:19
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-3 09:54
It won’t it will be considered as a legacy drone if it doesn’t have classification, and just like other drones already on the market it will be given a 2 year moratorium from date of rules coming into force, and although EASA has postponed until December its highly unlikely they will implement rules in the next 12 months. So I’d safely say this drone will be 3 years old by then.
During that 2 year mandatory period the MA2 (without C1 cert.) can only be operated within the specs of A2 category AND 150m away from people. So there will be more restrictions immediately after the new regulations are active and not only  after 3 years.
5-3 11:31
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hallmark007
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg Posted at 5-3 11:31
During that 2 year mandatory period the MA2 (without C1 cert.) can only be operated within the specs of A2 category AND 150m away from people. So there will be more restrictions immediately after the new regulations are active and not only  after 3 years.

That’s wrong as far as I’m aware it will be classed as a legacy drone just like M2 and all other dji drones and as I said it’s more likely to be 3 years and certainly won’t be two .
My guess is dji will have this straightened out soon and it would be a disaster for them to shaft their customers which I don’t believe will happen.
5-3 11:38
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RuralQuad
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-3 11:19
I’m slightly miffed by people who absolutely need ADSB complaining, this is a clear case of covid 19 causing delay with parts, so no way to deliver ADSB with this delivery. Yes a pain, but we are living in a pandemic and dji have said that those needing ADSB will just have to wait until they get parts for it.
So apart from not being able to get the drone in the next couple of weeks , you just need to wait a little longer, If you want with ADSB. You will get it just not now and that’s no ones fault .
And for those who don't care about ADSB well good for them they'll get their drones soon.

I completely understand the part supply issues, but surely releasing the same UAV across the board would be better than staggering those with and without a useful safety feature. In fairness, I do not absolutely need ADS-B, but if it's one more step towards safety in the air, I'd rather have it than not, especially at the same price point.
5-3 12:02
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Ian in London
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djiuser_GOVcbh7wYfbg Posted at 5-3 11:31
During that 2 year mandatory period the MA2 (without C1 cert.) can only be operated within the specs of A2 category AND 150m away from people. So there will be more restrictions immediately after the new regulations are active and not only  after 3 years.

No, the transition period keeps the existing 50m horizontal rule, so it's only after the 2 year transition period is up that the new limit becomes 150m.  And as Hallmark says, given the delay of the implementation, the Transition period is likely to be Nov 2022 or beginning 2023....
Last line From the updated Cap 1789 quote below:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/mod ... p;mc_eid=570b7ed000

▪ Unmanned aircraft which do not comply with the requirements of classes C0 to C4 are able to continue to be operated indefinitely within subcategory A3 (far from people) and, if they are less than 250g, within subcategory A1 (over people)

▪ From 1 July 2022 onwards, Open category unmanned aircraft that are placed on the EU market (i.e. new products introduced for sale in Europe) must comply with the product standards and be marked with the appropriate class Number (C0 to C4)
▪ Until 1 July 2022, additional transitional provisions have been made to enable unmanned aircraft:
▪ with a mass of less than 500g to be used in subcategory A1 ▪ with a mass of less than 2kg to be operated in subcategory A2 down to a horizontal distance of 50m from people
5-3 12:14
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hallmark007
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RuralQuad Posted at 5-3 12:02
I completely understand the part supply issues, but surely releasing the same UAV across the board would be better than staggering those with and without a useful safety feature. In fairness, I do not absolutely need ADS-B, but if it's one more step towards safety in the air, I'd rather have it than not, especially at the same price point.

I don’t need it either, so while it would have been impossible to release for Europe if we had to wait, I suppose why not give consumers the choice now or wait, but I will say one thing they were a bit underhanded about the lack of ADSB when people ordered on day one .
5-3 12:45
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Ian in London Posted at 5-3 12:14
No, the transition period keeps the existing 50m horizontal rule, so it's only after the 2 year transition period is up that the new limit becomes 150m.  And as Hallmark says, given the delay of the implementation, the Transition period is likely to be Nov 2022 or beginning 2023....
Last line From the updated Cap 1789 quote below:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=9135&mc_cid=cc5ceb757d&mc_eid=570b7ed000

Thx for that clarification. But still a disadvantage compared to a C1 drone in category A1.
5-3 13:05
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gnirtS
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sbonev Posted at 5-3 09:19
you mean drones bought now should not work more than an 2 years??? kind of strange thinking to say the least....

No.  If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know its about being able to *legally* operate a legacy drone without far stricter restrictions than are currently present.
Which is the whole point.  If you want to be legal and you buy it now, in 2.5 or so years time your shiny new drone is much more restricted in how you use it complying with the law.
5-3 20:27
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gnirtS
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-3 12:45
I don’t need it either, so while it would have been impossible to release for Europe if we had to wait, I suppose why not give consumers the choice now or wait, but I will say one thing they were a bit underhanded about the lack of ADSB when people ordered on day one .

To me it just sounds rushed.
M1,M2 etc releases were all delayed due to supply chain issues even without COVID.
Like i said their schedule without COVID probably called for a drone release now (with M3 next year to give it some space) but they may have been banking on the EU getting organised enough to offer compliance certification by the dead it was meant to go live (im guessing they dont understand the EU very well).

Their main market in this is north america.  Europe is an issue for them until EASA type certs get issued so the MA2 isnt aimed at that market.  If someone outside America buy this for them its a bonus but not the intended plan.  The proper CE release will be end of the year when things are sorted.

But yes they should make it absolutely clear everywhere that the current model does not support airsense and will not support it with a firmware upgrade in the future.  Their advertising is misleading as it mentions it as fitted.
5-3 20:43
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Bigplumbs
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If we are honest how many of us actually comply with the current drone laws
5-3 21:13
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hallmark007
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gnirtS Posted at 5-3 20:43
To me it just sounds rushed.
M1,M2 etc releases were all delayed due to supply chain issues even without COVID.
Like i said their schedule without COVID probably called for a drone release now (with M3 next year to give it some space) but they may have been banking on the EU getting organised enough to offer compliance certification by the dead it was meant to go live (im guessing they dont understand the EU very well).

Im not sure about it being rushes, biggest market the US is ready, it all may have been a bit rushed with release of Autel or at least that’s what some will think, but if it was the case how could dji have known Autel would be 4 months late.

I was one of the early adopters of M1 and that was released before it was ready, in fact many purchasers waited almost 4 months for their drone and so many teething problems.
I think the registration was a bit of a disaster but it’s a bit less than cycling on the footpath no more, these drones will be on their death bed before some Bobby finds the very odd one flying BVLOS and the problem with the Airsense is dji made such a big splash about it that now it’s going to get thrown back in their face, but I think the FAA had already done that.

I think the drone sounds great the problems don’t effect me and I’m sure that’s the same for most but they don’t realize it yet. Do think next batch will be corrected.
5-4 00:12
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sbonev
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gnirtS Posted at 5-3 20:27
No.  If you'd bothered to read the thread you'd know its about being able to *legally* operate a legacy drone without far stricter restrictions than are currently present.
Which is the whole point.  If you want to be legal and you buy it now, in 2.5 or so years time your shiny new drone is much more restricted in how you use it complying with the law.

by "work" i meant it being in the correct legal category and being able to fly it under same conditions as it was done until that point....don't understand everything literally, after all you don't get same performance in 2 years, so that is not ok for any product! this is the base warranty after all.
5-4 00:22
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After taking a closer look at the drone and read about everything i could find about it, the lack of airsense does not botter me at all here in Europe. The CE mark and everything around that part are worse. But the one thing that got me a little concerned is the only one compass and sensor. How much better has that tech become the last two years?
5-4 04:39
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hallmark007
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tshansen Posted at 5-4 04:39
After taking a closer look at the drone and read about everything i could find about it, the lack of airsense does not botter me at all here in Europe. The CE mark and everything around that part are worse. But the one thing that got me a little concerned is the only one compass and sensor. How much better has that tech become the last two years?

The one compass is nothing to worry about. Mavic Pro1 2xcompass drone was riddled with compass problems. Mavic2 1xcompass , almost no problems with compass and less than any other dji drone. I think having two compass in small drones was not working.
It would be good if dji can confirm where exactly we might stand with this drone legally, just confirm, I’m not worried but some are .
5-4 04:48
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DJI customer service chat just told me ADS-B will be delivered to EU Mavic 2 by software. I’m guessing that’s not actually possible? Also No CE marking but ‘rest assured Mavic Air 2 meets all regulation for CE certification’.

I don’t feel very assured but I guess as it’s my first drone I’m not sure how much I need to worry about ads-b, nice to have but surely if I’m flying VLOS do I need it? Certification thing is an issue but as I have no drone now whatever I buy will not be certified.
5-4 07:20
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Really?
Did they say that all the EU units will receive ADS-B by a firmware update?
Do you have a screenshot of the conversation?
I am super excited about getting the mavic air 2 - I wanted to wait until they sell the airsense units in europe but if it is so, I will not cancel my order.
5-4 07:47
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hallmark007
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Digi_t Posted at 5-4 07:20
DJI customer service chat just told me ADS-B will be delivered to EU Mavic 2 by software. I’m guessing that’s not actually possible? Also No CE marking but ‘rest assured Mavic Air 2 meets all regulation for CE certification’.

I don’t feel very assured but I guess as it’s my first drone I’m not sure how much I need to worry about ads-b, nice to have but surely if I’m flying VLOS do I need it? Certification thing is an issue but as I have no drone now whatever I buy will not be certified.

ADSB, if you like spotting planes it might interest you , but I reckon it’s not of much to drone users.

Flying VLOS requires you to be able to see drone at all times, hence the name vision line of sight. If flying BVLOS “beyond” vision line of sight, again unless you’re flying above the legal height it’s unlikely you’ll hit a manned craft, remembering you can see manned craft a long way off and if your flying BVLOS and above 400ft you are flying illegally and ADSB won’t help you if you get caught.

I don’t believe ADSB can be installed unless they add hardware so it’s not going to happen unless you return drone to be retrofitted, regarding CE regs I think maybe dji should make a statement on this.
5-4 07:56
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castormalin
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Digi_t Posted at 5-4 07:20
DJI customer service chat just told me ADS-B will be delivered to EU Mavic 2 by software. I’m guessing that’s not actually possible? Also No CE marking but ‘rest assured Mavic Air 2 meets all regulation for CE certification’.

I don’t feel very assured but I guess as it’s my first drone I’m not sure how much I need to worry about ads-b, nice to have but surely if I’m flying VLOS do I need it? Certification thing is an issue but as I have no drone now whatever I buy will not be certified.

That's obviously not true.
the missing hardware is described in the certification documentation
https://forum.dji.com/forum.php? ... =213868&pid=2141690
5-4 11:00
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I'm almost sure that C1 certification isn't on the drone due to extra cost and nothing else. Every certification brings extra cost to companies. Whoever had OP smartphone will know what I'm talking about - they used to say that phone is water resistant, but had no certificate for it. If this wouldn't be the case, they would just stamped that C1 on it. Because, meeting all the requirements and actually have that clarified on the device makes big difference.

And as someone mentioned how many does fly by regulations. I do. Better fly by regulation then to pay fine for stupidity.
5-5 04:14
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Thr0nSK
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Well it would be nice if somebody from DJI replied..
5-6 10:17
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Hello Ian!

Can you explain the difference here:
So, a current 3kg aircraft, for example, will never become a C2 model; it will only
ever be ‘a legacy unmanned aircraft that weighs 3kg’. In the same fashion, a
current 800g aircraft will not become a C1 model; it is just ‘a legacy unmanned
aircraft that weighs 800g’.



vs.

In order to be given a particular Class marking, the aircraft must have been
designed and manufactured to the relevant standards of that class marking.
The
only way you can get an aircraft with a ‘CE class marking’ is to buy one that has this
marking.



You are telling us that the MAvic Air 2 will not be CE (Cx) compliant.

Why are you doing that?


The full quote is here:

"Can an existing UAS be ‘retrospectively marked’ with a ‘C’ Class from 1
November 2020 (e.g. will my 3kg drone will become a ‘C2 Class’ aircraft)?

No, this is completely wrong! The ‘CE’ Class markings do not work retrospectively.

So, a current 3kg aircraft, for example, will never become a C2 model; it will only
ever be ‘a legacy unmanned aircraft that weighs 3kg’. In the same fashion, a
current 800g aircraft will not become a C1 model; it is just ‘a legacy unmanned
aircraft that weighs 800g’.


In order to be given a particular Class marking, the aircraft must have been
designed and manufactured to the relevant standards of that class marking. The
only way you can get an aircraft with a ‘CE class marking’ is to buy one that has this
marking.


The ‘legacy unmanned aircraft’ do not suddenly become unusable however:
  • In the case of the 3kg ‘legacy aircraft’ it can only be operated in the A3
    subcategory (far from people) within the Open category, or flown in the
    Specific category in accordance with an operational authorisation granted by
    the CAA.



  • In the case of the 800g ‘legacy aircraft’, it could be operated in the A2
    subcategory until 30 Jun 2022, using the transitional provisions, provided that
    its remote pilot has passed the A2 CofC theoretical test.!


5-6 12:17
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djiuser_WsiXvLRAxQxV Posted at 5-6 12:17
Hello Ian!

Can you explain the difference here:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here?  I thought I was pretty clear and this is what I say in the video.
If the model isn't sold as CE 1 or 2  certified then it can only ever become a legacy drone that will then be required to be flown in A3 category conditions after the transition period is up....  That's what I said and that's what your full quote says....  
Ian
5-6 13:22
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Ian in London Posted at 5-6 13:22
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here?  I thought I was pretty clear and this is what I say in the video.
If the model isn't sold as CE 1 or 2  certified then it can only ever become a legacy drone that will then be required to be flown in A3 category conditions after the transition period is up....  That's what I said and that's what your full quote says....  
Ian

Yes, but what are you basing that on?

As it is only for DJI to mark the productionmodel with a Cx mark.

Have anyone received an Air 2 yet?

And it is possible to add a mark in the production, although it won't make one shipped today without a mark certified despite being the same model.

Adding a mark to preproduction modell is "risky".
5-6 14:06
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Ulli01
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Germany
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 01:30
You will have almost 3 years, new EASA time table looks like rules will be out now in 2021 so you will have two years moratorium from 2021 to 2023 . ADSB will not be a requirement for EASA for EASA rules you will need Remote id. It’s no excuse why Airsense is missing .

Until now, the new rules are valid as of 01.07.2020!
The announced intention to shift 6 months is right now just an intention! No legal movement on that right now, and as the lockdown is opening up in a lot of areas, I doubt that the date will still be moved.
5-6 14:23
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