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No CE Certification & No AirSense outside the USA
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Ulli01
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jonny007 Posted at 5-10 03:11
I have another understanding ... UNDER 250g always A1, regardless whether C0 or not (self built) see first line in the picture above

You miss an other point:
The Mini has a weight of 249g, but you are required to stick a metal plate with your name on it.
The lightest ones, I've found so far, have a weight of 1,1g. That means that you will end up with a weight of 250g or more!
The law says "less than 250g" that means, no matter what, even the Mini will end up in the Subcategory A3 acc. to Article 20.
5-10 07:48
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urbanweb
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 07:39
It is extremely bad business practice!
If you buy a Air2 now, you will end up with all the bad outcome, of flying a legacy drone with more than 250g after 01.07.2020.
That means e.g. A2-Licence, 50m Distance to ALL People (incl. the pilot) etc.

We shall see I’m happy to buy one, arrives Friday.
5-10 08:37
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hallmark007
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 07:48
You miss an other point:
The Mini has a weight of 249g, but you are required to stick a metal plate with your name on it.
The lightest ones, I've found so far, have a weight of 1,1g. That means that you will end up with a weight of 250g or more!

You’re starting to sound like the Stasi around here, give us a break we’re all adults here capable of making our own minds up .
5-10 08:58
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Snopmaster
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Get over this article... May be relevant in this tread

https://www.techradar.com/news/s ... rsense-alert-system
5-10 08:59
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 07:39
It is extremely bad business practice!
If you buy a Air2 now, you will end up with all the bad outcome, of flying a legacy drone with more than 250g after 01.07.2020.
That means e.g. A2-Licence, 50m Distance to ALL People (incl. the pilot) etc.


(18) ‘uninvolved persons’ means persons who are not participating in the UAS operation or who are not aware of the instructions and safety precautions given by the UAS operator;

The pilot is not one of the uninvolved persons.
5-10 09:22
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wictor
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 07:42
The certification is possible, as other producers are able to deliver their drones with certification.

Do you have an example? From what I've heard there is no officially certified drone on the market. Slapping a C0 logo in the drone doesn't make it certified. Some of the cheap chinese manufacturers fake CE logos on their products.
5-10 09:40
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castormalin
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True. But it's true also that the standard was released 10 months ago...
5-10 10:37
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jonny007
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 07:48
You miss an other point:
The Mini has a weight of 249g, but you are required to stick a metal plate with your name on it.
The lightest ones, I've found so far, have a weight of 1,1g. That means that you will end up with a weight of 250g or more!

It's not clear whether a label is needed, one side says yes, another side says no, however it is not over 250g, without the label or with it. Take a nano or pico label, it has 0,18 grams.

5-10 11:02
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wictor
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castormalin Posted at 5-10 10:37
True. But it's true also that the standard was released 10 months ago...

It was decided 10 months ago, but it comes into effect in July.
5-10 12:49
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Ulli01
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wictor Posted at 5-10 12:49
It was decided 10 months ago, but it comes into effect in July.

The regulations are in force since July 2019
5-10 13:08
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Ulli01
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-10 09:22
(18) ‘uninvolved persons’ means persons who are not participating in the UAS operation or who are not aware of the instructions and safety precautions given by the UAS operator;

The pilot is not one of the uninvolved persons.

Art. 22 (b) says:
"(b) unmanned aircraft with a maximum take-off mass of less than 2 kg is operated by keeping a minimum horizontal distance of 50 meters from people..."

That does not mean "uninvolved persons", but all people incl. the pilot!
If they wanted to mean only "uninvolved persons" they would have used this term...
5-10 13:11
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Ulli01
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-10 09:22
(18) ‘uninvolved persons’ means persons who are not participating in the UAS operation or who are not aware of the instructions and safety precautions given by the UAS operator;

The pilot is not one of the uninvolved persons.

Art. 22 (b) says:
"(b) unmanned aircraft with a maximum take-off mass of less than 2 kg is operated by keeping a minimum horizontal distance of 50 meters from people..."

That does not mean "uninvolved persons", but all people incl. the pilot!
If they wanted to mean only "uninvolved persons" they would have used this term...
5-10 13:11
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Ulli01
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-10 08:58
You’re starting to sound like the Stasi around here, give us a break we’re all adults here capable of making our own minds up .

Really!?
You sound more like a 17yr old with acne, that has no other live than hanging around here, and offend others!

You don't need to answer, I'm going to ignore you from now on!
5-10 13:17
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Ulli01
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jonny007 Posted at 5-10 11:02
It's not clear whether a label is needed, one side says yes, another side says no, however it is not over 250g, without the label or with it. Take a nano or pico label, it has 0,18 grams.

[view_image]

Where do you got those from?
5-10 13:18
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hallmark007
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 13:17
Really!?
You sound more like a 17yr old with acne, that has no other live than hanging around here, and offend others!

Well it seems you just come here to try push your weight around and the fact that most are ignoring you should tell you no one is interested in your ranting. And more to the point. What is your point ?
5-10 13:35
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wictor
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 13:08
The regulations are in force since July 2019

1.   This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from 1 July 2020.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg_impl/2019/947/oj
5-10 23:10
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jonny007
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 13:18
Where do you got those from?

I must add something because of the label, which maybe is needed.
https://www.kopter-profi.de/ratgeber/drohnen-gesetze-eu#details-zur-offenen-kategorie-open-category says that a drone UNDER 250 grams has ALSO to be registered, if it has a camera. If this means that every registration need a label on the drone, then you have to place it. But maybe its ok only to register without a label on the drone. Who knows ?

I don't know whether its ok to post links here (advertisement), but do a google search with "drohnen-kennzeichen nano" or "drohnen-kennzeichen piko"
5-11 02:12
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castormalin
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Anyway if leaving in EU, it is urgent to wait until July before buying an MA2 :
- We will know what is the DJI real plan for the CE certification
- We will know if the strategy of ADS-B is really due to a shortage or to a marketing cost reduction decision
5-11 03:11
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djiuser_nM9PLjO8qAy5
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I do actually not understand why everybody is thinking that the new Regulation will apply on 1 July 2020, since "Several European Member States are understood to have requested a postponement of the applicability date (July 1, 2020) of the European Union (EU) Implementation Regulation, given the current disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic". So it will actually apply on 1 January 2021 according to austro control (if anyone speaks German).

Furthermore, I contacted DJI support, confirming the Date of 1 janaury 2021, after which we can expect the CE certification and ADS-B.
5-11 03:48
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hallmark007
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djiuser_nM9PLjO8qAy5 Posted at 5-11 03:48
I do actually not understand why everybody is thinking that the new Regulation will apply on 1 July 2020, since "Several European Member States are understood to have requested a postponement of the applicability date (July 1, 2020) of the European Union (EU) Implementation Regulation, given the current disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic". So it will actually apply on 1 January 2021 according to austro control (if anyone speaks German).

Furthermore, I contacted DJI support, confirming the Date of 1 janaury 2021, after which we can expect the CE certification and ADS-B.

I fully agree according to our association here whom I was in contact with last week, rules won’t be introduced at least until 2021.
What amazes me is some people seem to be acting as the new police for checking drones. If you don’t want to buy the drone so be it make your point move on .
5-11 04:04
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-11 04:04
I fully agree according to our association here whom I was in contact with last week, rules won’t be introduced at least until 2021.
What amazes me is some people seem to be acting as the new police for checking drones. If you don’t want to buy the drone so be it make your point move on .

If the discussions annoys you, just do not participate in it.
5-11 07:41
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hallmark007
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-11 07:41
If the discussions annoys you, just do not participate in it.

It’s pretty obvious that your not that interested in the discussion if that is all you have to add to it.
5-11 08:39
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-11 08:39
It’s pretty obvious that your not that interested in the discussion if that is all you have to add to it.

Wanting DJI to make a clear statement, or having questions about the current state of both certification and the coming rules in EU is not the same as not wanting to buy the drone.

I was paraphising what you wrote (I even quoted it), concerning interest and adding to the discussion ... if you want people to move on, do it yourself.
5-11 10:55
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hallmark007
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-11 10:55
Wanting DJI to make a clear statement, or having questions about the current state of both certification and the coming rules in EU is not the same as not wanting to buy the drone.

I was paraphising what you wrote (I even quoted it), concerning interest and adding to the discussion ... if you want people to move on, do it yourself.

I think you’ll be waiting for anyone from dji to come here to make a full statement, I’ve been on this forum over 4 years and it’s no happened yet, they’re a private company so they don’t have to. However moderator’# here have said according to them new certification is not available yet and A2 complies with current regulations. Explanation regarding ADSB can be found in link, but it seems these explanations are met with everyone is a liar we want the truth we know more than everyone. As if somehow this shouting is going to garner another reply that is different to the one they got.

At some stage there needs to be a point to this, dji have said at this time this is what’s available, nothing no matter how much you pull out your hair, that’s not going to change. Dji have said that later versions will contain ADSB and have not said that retrofit won’t happen, so it’s still an option but no guarantee. So everyone spends their time shouting even though they know what’s happening, but the same people are entitled to wait not to wait. It’s pretty black an white, but the wrong information the drama is just that, it’s to try to disrupt .
https://www.techradar.com/news/should-you-buy-a-dji-mavic-air-2-without-the-airsense-alert-system




5-11 11:15
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-10 13:11
Art. 22 (b) says:
"(b) unmanned aircraft with a maximum take-off mass of less than 2 kg is operated by keeping a minimum horizontal distance of 50 meters from people..."

That means that they have changed the distance  from 30 metes to 50 meters for those that have A2 license. Not meaning that they removed the uninvovled meaning as described specifik in the A2 license. You have to put the transition rules in context the actuall ruleset.
5-11 11:38
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JEZ2
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DJI has said that there is no official certification process for the remote id component, which is needed for C1 (where the MA2 will fit).  Since remote id is NOT required for C0, it is possible (although I don't know for sure) that you are able to certify C0 drones, but not C1.  So, the manufacturer of a C0 drone, doesn't mean that there are any C1s.
5-11 11:41
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hallmark007
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JEZ2 Posted at 5-11 11:41
DJI has said that there is no official certification process for the remote id component, which is needed for C1 (where the MA2 will fit).  Since remote id is NOT required for C0, it is possible (although I don't know for sure) that you are able to certify C0 drones, but not C1.  So, the manufacturer of a C0 drone, doesn't mean that there are any C1s.

Air2 has remote id even the European models. It’s ADSB it doesn’t have
5-11 12:37
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JEZ2
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-11 12:37
Air2 has remote id even the European models. It’s ADSB it doesn’t have

Yes, I'm well aware of that.  What  does not exist is the certification process for the remote id.  The MA2 was clearly built for C1 (its top speed is EXACTLY the  maximum top speed allowed in C1 -that wasn't a coincidence).  Everything is ready to go except the EASA certification process doesn't yet exist.  So if you can't certify the remote id portion, C1 drones cannot be certified (for any manufcaturer).  However, since C0 drones don't need remote id, perhaps they can be certified.
5-11 12:57
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hallmark007
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JEZ2 Posted at 5-11 12:57
Yes, I'm well aware of that.  What  does not exist is the certification process for the remote id.  The MA2 was clearly built for C1 (its top speed is EXACTLY the  maximum top speed allowed in C1 -that wasn't a coincidence).  Everything is ready to go except the EASA certification process doesn't yet exist.  So if you can't certify the remote id portion, C1 drones cannot be certified (for any manufcaturer).  However, since C0 drones don't need remote id, perhaps they can be certified.

I think everyone here is aware of this, and the choice is simple , wait or get drone now. But what you’re saying is known here and it’s hard to know what people want, because the choice is already there. It’s a pity that certification was not ready, whether dji can get certification sometime in the future for these drones, is not known, but it also is now not that important to those who have purchased now.

It seems strange if people want the drone full spec ADSB and new certification , really people should forget about this release and enquire when they will be able to purchase full spec drone, instead of whining that it’s not here now, because that reason has been explained. My opinion.
5-11 13:31
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Ulli01
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djiuser_nM9PLjO8qAy5 Posted at 5-11 03:48
I do actually not understand why everybody is thinking that the new Regulation will apply on 1 July 2020, since "Several European Member States are understood to have requested a postponement of the applicability date (July 1, 2020) of the European Union (EU) Implementation Regulation, given the current disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic". So it will actually apply on 1 January 2021 according to austro control (if anyone speaks German).

Furthermore, I contacted DJI support, confirming the Date of 1 janaury 2021, after which we can expect the CE certification and ADS-B.

This is only a request of postponement!
To this date, the EU-Commission takes no legal actions, to follow this request, what means currently is still the 01.07.2020 THE date!
5-11 13:38
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Ulli01
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wictor Posted at 5-10 23:10
1.   This Regulation shall enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union.
It shall apply from 1 July 2020.

Nothing different, to what I wrote!
5-11 13:38
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Ulli01
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-11 11:38
That means that they have changed the distance  from 30 metes to 50 meters for those that have A2 license. Not meaning that they removed the uninvovled meaning as described specifik in the A2 license. You have to put the transition rules in context the actuall ruleset.

You can operate a drone, that is fully certified, and can be operated under A2, fly up to 30m of uninvolved persons.
A drone like the Air2 can be still operated under the rules of Art. 22. That means that the pilot needs a A2-Certificate, AND you have to keep a horizontal distance of 50m from people!
People are not the same as "uninvolved persons", if they wanted to have the term "uninvolved persons" they would have put it there! "People" are ALL People incl. the pilot.
That is, because they don't trust an uncertified drone in the same way, like a certified drone.
Art. 22 is a separate rule, that is not in a context to the Open Cat. A2.
Art. 22 is only requiring a Pilotscertification acc. to A2. That is a big difference!
5-11 13:48
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-11 13:38
This is only a request of postponement!
To this date, the EU-Commission takes no legal actions, to follow this request, what means currently is still the 01.07.2020 THE date!

(I realise that have mostly used "in force" when it should be applies.)

If EU would postpone the date I guess it will be announced here:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/civil-drones-rpas#field-easa-latest-news

Otherwise it  is to be expected that the member states implements the rules or in other words just plainly gives the finger to EU and do what they unlawfully have to do because they have to prioritize then be it.

The Swedish have published on their site that they may postpone the implementations of the new rules due to Covid-19.

Then if someone has some kind of inside information, then be it.  
5-11 14:06
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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Ulli01 Posted at 5-11 13:48
You can operate a drone, that is fully certified, and can be operated under A2, fly up to 30m of uninvolved persons.
A drone like the Air2 can be still operated under the rules of Art. 22. That means that the pilot needs a A2-Certificate, AND you have to keep a horizontal distance of 50m from people!
People are not the same as "uninvolved persons", if they wanted to have the term "uninvolved persons" they would have put it there! "People" are ALL People incl. the pilot.

If we would assume that your interpretation is correct.

Can you then explain how you would be able to launch the drone with A1/A3 license?
5-11 14:13
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Mailliw_Sirrom
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Mailliw_Sirrom Posted at 5-11 14:13
If we would assume that your interpretation is correct.

Can you then explain how you would be able to launch the drone with A1/A3 license?

Article 22 would say that the drone has to weigh more than 2kg up to 25kg, hence the Air 2 would be to light ... it just wouldn't make sense.

A legacy drone that weighs 570 gram can be operated under either A2 or A3 (but a legacy drone that weighs more than 2 kg wont be able to operate under A2 category.)

It would create a mess of illogical reasoning.

Operating it with a license for A3 category would for instance have less restrictions than A2, you would for instance be able to launch it within your vicinity and have a party of friends (involved persons) with you, where as operating it with a license for A2 category would prohibit that.

A2 license are there to make it able for us to use it in a recreational area, closer to houses, areas where you would be able to expect uninvolved persons if it would have been a C2 classified drone you would be able to fly as close as 30 meters, but with article 22 it is changed to 50 meters as the drone have no classification.

An interpretation that article 2 excludes involved person from A2 are just wrong.
5-11 14:44
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sbonev
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-11 13:31
I think everyone here is aware of this, and the choice is simple , wait or get drone now. But what you’re saying is known here and it’s hard to know what people want, because the choice is already there. It’s a pity that certification was not ready, whether dji can get certification sometime in the future for these drones, is not known, but it also is now not that important to those who have purchased now.

It seems strange if people want the drone full spec ADSB and new certification , really people should forget about this release and enquire when they will be able to purchase full spec drone, instead of whining that it’s not here now, because that reason has been explained. My opinion.

what did you just say??? sorry but your train of thought is total wreck...
But what you’re saying is known here and it’s hard to know what people want, because the choice is already there.It seems strange if people want the drone full spec ADSB and new certification , really people should forget about this release and enquire when they will be able to purchase full spec drone, instead of whining that it’s not here now, because that reason has been explained. My opinion.


Let me see, what exactly is strange about people wanting full spec drone??? i mean where does it say you will be paying for partial spec drone??? Also it is hard to know what people want or it is clear to you that they want full specs drone??? Are you happy paying full price for somewhat partially specs on something?

Also while DJI was almost clear regarding the ADS-B stating they simply will deliver it in near future, for the certification they just said it does not exist...which is not actually correct, as certification has been already passed through the official channels and the only thing left is to be enforced officially which might be delayed due to the recent events. However this should not be the issue as in such cases the necessary requirements and documentation are prepared well in advance, nobody is waiting for a couple of months before enforcing new laws and regulations to implement totally new and innovative system of certification and not give enough time of interested parties to be able to get to know it. And the 2 years transition period is for drones sold before the new regulation became active...so on day 1 of the enforced regulations there should be means of cerftifications for products that are being sold. I have the feeling DJI just decided to save some money on this and wait until it starts to be enforced... which is win win situation for DJI.

As for the remote id and this being the issue DJI cannot get UA class certification - could be, but it is not clear nor it has been officially confirmed - the only thing moderators mentioned is that there is no certification, whatever this means...however i see some of the specification in effect on EASA site and it seems to me they might be already existing in DJI products.

this is regarding the remote id from the official documentation that is in effect already according the EASA official site:

Requirements for a direct remote identification add-on A direct remote identification add-on shall comply with the following:
(1) allows the upload of the UAS operator registration number in accordance with Article 14 of Implementing Regulation (EU) 2019/947 and exclusively following the process provided by the registration system;
(2) has a physical serial number compliant with standard ANSI/CTA-2063 Small Unmanned Aerial Systems Serial Numbers, affixed to the add-on and its packaging or its user's manual in a legible manner;
(3) ensures, in real time during the whole duration of the flight, the direct periodic broadcast from the UA using an open and documented transmission protocol, of the following data, in a way that they can be received directly by existing mobile devices within the broadcasting range: i the UAS operator registration number; ii the unique physical serial number of the add-on compliant with standard ANSI/CTA-2063; iii the geographical position of the UA and its height above the surface or take-off point; iv the route course measured clockwise from true north and ground speed of the UA; and v the geographical position of the remote pilot or, if not available, the take-off point;
(4) ensures that the user cannot modify the data mentioned under paragraph (3) points ii, iii, iv and v;
(5) is placed on the market with a user's manual providing the reference of the transmission protocol used for the direct remote identification emission and the instruction to: (a) install the module on the UA; (b) upload the UAS operator registration number.

5-11 14:58
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sbonev Posted at 5-11 14:58
what did you just say??? sorry but your train of thought is total wreck...
But what you’re saying is known here and it’s hard to know what people want, because the choice is already there.It seems strange if people want the drone full spec ADSB and new certification , really people should forget about this release and enquire when they will be able to purchase full spec drone, instead of whining that it’s not here now, because that reason has been explained. My opinion.

I think they said they will have the drone for you Jan 21, I just don’t know if people can stick you whining that long.
I sense a huge jealousy from you while many Europeans will be enjoying flying their MA2 , you’ll be whining like a baby. But not because you can’t get your drone because you whine about everything. I hope you live alone because we couldn’t wish this on anyone. And when M3 is launched with ADSB we might be done with the old tech and go for new tech. And I’m certain you’ll be whining about that to. Hopefully they’ll sort out the app for you so you can use mini, only 7 months you’ll have new MA2 but by then it will be old MA2. Good luck. And remember if your out drinking and driving “Don’t forget the car”. .....
5-11 15:14
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-11 15:14
I think they said they will have the drone for you Jan 21, I just don’t know if people can stick you whining that long.
I sense a huge jealousy from you while many Europeans will be enjoying flying their MA2 , you’ll be whining like a baby. But not because you can’t get your drone because you whine about everything. I hope you live alone because we couldn’t wish this on anyone. And when M3 is launched with ADSB we might be done with the old tech and go for new tech. And I’m certain you’ll be whining about that to. Hopefully they’ll sort out the app for you so you can use mini, only 7 months you’ll have new MA2 but by then it will be old MA2. Good luck. And remember if your out drinking and driving “Don’t forget the car”. .....

i am having a discussion, you are repeating only the word whining...guess this is as far as your intelligence goes...what or when will happen you don't know, so you can dream on... as for jealousy you are quite mistaken, i can buy it if i wish, then i can buy the mavic 3 and  the next one, i have no problem to buy them at once even. The problem i have is i cannot fly them at once. And i don't have the urge to be the first one to buy a product to test it for free, though it happened with the mini due to the huge amount of bugs it got released with. And for the moment the mini works fine for the city.


As for the app, if you didn't figure it out yet it is the same for the air 2, so same issues. Hopefully they'll fix it because of that. Anyway there is a workaround for most of them, so i know how not to have them.


And i am not the one drinking, just check the structure of your sentences and repetition of the words - it is like some 7 year old is writing. And i doubt you can sense anything related to people - for that is required to have some sense
5-12 00:26
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DenisJ
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Flight distance : 179268 ft
Slovenia
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New document came out yesterday. Date for new CE certification stays at 1st of July 2020 and not 1st of January 2021

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32020R0639&from=E
5-13 12:05
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sbonev
First Officer
Flight distance : 2761398 ft
Switzerland
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DenisJ Posted at 5-13 12:05
New document came out yesterday. Date for new CE certification stays at 1st of July 2020 and not 1st of January 2021

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32020R0639&from=E

yes but they give 2 transitional year for all non-compliant UAs an starting of this period 1 year after the new regulations come into effect, which will be 1st of July 2020...It seems like DJI won't need to pay for the certification until next year, so i doubt we will see it in Mavic Air 2.
5-13 12:55
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