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No C Classification & No AirSense outside the USA
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hallmark007
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Ice_2k Posted at 5-1 05:39
I agree with the fact that the current situation is what it is and they simply don't have the parts to install in all Air 2s. Where I do believe DJI are pretty much mocking the non-US clients is that to get it retrofitted at a later date when it becomes available, you need to pay for the "upgrade" plus shipping. Which is really not ok, you can't consider it an upgrade if I already paid for it. If one side (us) needs to understand the current situation, then maybe the other side (DJI) should as well. Asking me to pay just for shipping but not for the ADS-B itself would be much fairer.

I don’t think we know if we actually have paid for it, I suppose we can wait and see when it is implemented if there is extra charge and I believe there will be, and the reason is when I purchased first Mavic air it was close to €120 more expensive, Air2 was €50 , and this was always the way it was until Trumps Tariffs, so during the time M2P was released it was cheaper in EU than US, now once again tariffs are gone and drones are now cheaper in US.

I do however think that dji need to respect those who have purchased in good faith and who would have been led to believe it was going to have Air Sense and some offer should made to all those who purchased Air2 without Air Sense, but if shipping was free and they were charging €70 it wouldn’t interest me, I can get a free app to tell me what’s flying in my area, and I think M3 will be out later this year and I’m sure it will be on that.
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castormalin Posted at 5-1 05:49
Can you please show me the official statment from DJI saying they will retrofit the EU MA2's with ADS-B  for free ? I've missed that

Who does anything for free ? Again I’m not sure your thinking this through, just to let you know over two years ago I paid €120 more for my Mavic Air than my counterparts in the US 4 years ago I paid almost €200 more for both P4 and Mavic Pro, this time I spent €50 more fo Air2 so have I paid for something I got or not.

And if I had a choice to pay or not for ADSB I’d opt out because it won’t be recognized by either EASA or FAA so it’s basically a plane spotter and I can get a free app for this.
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 05:27
I have never defended dji on this matter, but it’s clear that it’s not available, so I was pointing out how little this is needed and how it actually will not effect anyone’s flying certainly not for the next 3 years, if you read the thread dji have said that it can be retrofitted at a later date, but due to covid 19 they simply cannot get parts for rest of the world except US and Canada, so unless you just arrived from space you will be aware of what the world is going through, I suppose dji could have suspended release to Europe, but why if they’re people who are not bothered about the need to have and pay extra for ADSB which if you read posts above you will clearly see you will pat extra for ADSB.

But refrain from misquoting, I’m well aware of the situation and I’m not defending anything except what is very obvious.

well plain and simple as that is - if you cannot offer same quality you either:

1. state it clearly and mention it in the specs. then adjust the price accordingly
2. you don't sell it until you can offer the same product everywhere
3. in case you sell 2 different models due to limitations of stock and knowingly offer them to different markets, you assume the costs to make the lacking model at par with the other one when stocks permit it...and again make that clear in specs.

pick one and stop telling me to understand the situation. i understand it, but i am not putting a new product on the market with inadequate reserves of the parts required to produce it. So if they intentionally chose to release new product  they could have backed them up on necessary parts for production. or postpone it  until better stock reserves.

A lot of things could have been done better. So no i don't understand it! as long as people like you go with whatever crap corporates throw their way and are happy with it, things like that are bound to happen!

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hallmark007
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sbonev Posted at 5-1 06:27
well plain and simple as that is - if you cannot offer same quality you either:

1. state it clearly and mention it in the specs. then adjust the price accordingly

I’m not going to argue with you anymore but just say that #2 is total bunkem, who are you to say others shouldn’t get Mavic Air without AirSense, it’s practically useless and if less than half of manned aircraft and EASA and FAA won’t be recognizing it then it’s only a plane spotter, so if I’ve saved money on something I won’t use I’m happy.
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Apparently updated information?
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 05:33
Well are you so ignorant to not realize that the world is pretty much upside down at the minute and it’s already been said that parts were not available so ADSB couldn’t be implemented in this drone, I think if you read post above you will see dji have said they would retrofit it at a later date as well as saying when parts are available it would be fitted to EU drones, I imagine if drone was not released you’d be here whining about that.

I  missed the post from DJI where they advised the reason for lack of ADS-B outside of US and Canada was lack of parts? Has this been confirmed?
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bjr981s Posted at 5-1 07:04
I  missed the post from DJI where they advised the reason for lack of ADS-B outside of US and Canada was lack of parts? Has this been confirmed?

Well the official word from moderator dji Mindy here is that, and the way things are I’d say it’s correct.

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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 06:25
Who does anything for free ? Again I’m not sure your thinking this through, just to let you know over two years ago I paid €120 more for my Mavic Air than my counterparts in the US 4 years ago I paid almost €200 more for both P4 and Mavic Pro, this time I spent €50 more fo Air2 so have I paid for something I got or not.

And if I had a choice to pay or not for ADSB I’d opt out because it won’t be recognized by either EASA or FAA so it’s basically a plane spotter and I can get a free app for this.

I give up
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hallmark007
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I see so it was just a whining exercise for you...
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sbonev
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yeah it is pointless to argue with that kind of people...keep repeating whatever they believe in discarding any other opinion...and always keen on having the last word
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hallmark007
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sbonev Posted at 5-1 08:43
yeah it is pointless to argue with that kind of people...keep repeating whatever they believe in discarding any other opinion...and always keen on having the last word

What opinion did I discard ? I keep repeating things as they are.
Here’s your problem you seem to be annoyed others went and purchased Air 2, you have a choice but you just want the choice as long as you can whine about it, not everybody needs or wants ADBS and apart from saying you couldn’t hear or see helicopters while flying , maybe you’ll explain why it’s needed if it’s not going to be recognized .
.
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Ian in London
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DJI Mindy Posted at 5-1 05:30
Thanks for raising your concerns here in Forum. DJI will implement the production and sales standards in accordance with the requirements of local policies, there will be no restrictions currently.
Actually none of the electronic products can do the CE Certification until the CE standard is released.
According to the conclusion given by our legal affairs, even after the new policy is launched, the products currently on the market will have a product protection period of two years, which means we can use Mavic Air 2 as usual.

Thanks for your update Mindy.  Yes, we will indeed be able to fly using the old CE classification after two years, but this will be as 'Legacy Unclassified' which only allows flying in spaces much further away from people and buildings.

The best thing DJI can do is lobby the regulators to allow backdating /retrospective certification for existing DJI models that easily satisfy the new certification requirements.  If the specs are the same, then retro certification should be possible....
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That's interesting!
Maybe a good news
Thank you.
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bd-dji
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Hey guys, by the way I uploaded a couple screenshots of a conversation I had with a support guy a while ago above. According to him at least, there is some sort of updated information relating to the new C1 CE certifications for the Mavic Air 2. The support guy says that a recent updated info says that the drone actually does have the C1 certification, but not a printed label. He also says that more should be announced "soon". I really do hope for the best on this one...
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hallmark007
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bd-dji Posted at 5-1 14:04
Hey guys, by the way I uploaded a couple screenshots of a conversation I had with a support guy a while ago above. According to him at least, there is some sort of updated information relating to the new C1 CE certifications for the Mavic Air 2. The support guy says that a recent updated info says that the drone actually does have the C1 certification, but not a printed label. He also says that more should be announced "soon". I really do hope for the best on this one...

Good job thanks for the info .
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bd-dji Posted at 5-1 14:04
Hey guys, by the way I uploaded a couple screenshots of a conversation I had with a support guy a while ago above. According to him at least, there is some sort of updated information relating to the new C1 CE certifications for the Mavic Air 2. The support guy says that a recent updated info says that the drone actually does have the C1 certification, but not a printed label. He also says that more should be announced "soon". I really do hope for the best on this one...

Not sure he understands whats being asked - there IS no procedure yet for certifying.  Simply building a device to spec doesnt make it certified.

If/when the process exists they can get it through and then all MA2s sold AFTER that date will be certified.  But not the ones now.
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 09:03
What opinion did I discard ? I keep repeating things as they are.
Here’s your problem you seem to be annoyed others went and purchased Air 2, you have a choice but you just want the choice as long as you can whine about it, not everybody needs or wants ADBS and apart from saying you couldn’t hear or see helicopters while flying , maybe you’ll explain why it’s needed if it’s not going to be recognized .
.

ADS-B is recognised.  Its been an internationally used standard for years.  

Its used in TCAS, backup radar coverage, fleet tracking and many many other things.

However, most smaller GA aircraft/military/rotary dont have the transponder fitted so wont show.  Thats why its not much use -  lack of compliant aircraft.  Buts its recognised as a standard by everyone and used extensively in commercial air.Its very handy for an A320 at FL300 passing overhead but not so handy in showing Weekend-Joe in his C152 buzzing around at 500ft in the local area (who is more likely to conflict)

A major problem i can see happening is because people dont understand what ADS-B is or its limitations (as shown by people on here and other forums) is they'll see a nice, clear picture on Airsense, assume that means theres nothing there so think "ok its clear, i'll just pop up to 1600ft for a quick photo" or "nothing here for miles, i'll just fly 3 miles away down that valley" when in reality there could easily be traffic.  It'll lull people into a false sense of security as nowhere i can see attempts to highlight the limitations.

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gnirtS Posted at 5-1 20:27
ADS-B is recognised.  Its been an internationally used standard for years.  

Its used in TCAS, backup radar coverage, fleet tracking and many many other things.

That's disappointing to read gnirt.  I had already thought it would be a bit pointless to be informed of an airliner passing over at 25,000 ft, but a light aircraft or helicopter would be very useful....  Either way, would be nice if I had been able to play with it myself
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-1 07:10
Well the official word from moderator dji Mindy here is that, and the way things are I’d say it’s correct.

I have checked the posts in this thread and cant find that post from Mindy.

There is a post from another member that suggests that might be the case. But its only a guess.

Can you give me the directions to Mindys statement? Is it in another thread.

Keen to know, thinking of cancelling my order.

Can you imagine a car manufacturer saying "we are short of rear brakes, so your car doesn't have any, we could only supply enough for the US market. So just be careful driving"

Cheers


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gnirtS Posted at 5-1 20:27
ADS-B is recognised.  Its been an internationally used standard for years.  

Its used in TCAS, backup radar coverage, fleet tracking and many many other things.

I meant ADSB was not recognized by FAA or EASA as a tool for any drone use.
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bjr981s Posted at 5-2 00:19
I have checked the posts in this thread and cant find that post from Mindy.

There is a post from another member that suggests that might be the case. But its only a guess.

I’ll try finding it later, I think you should read gnirt’s post above he has a good handle on whether ADSB is all it’s cracked up to be.

I think it will come might be a few months down the road but if you really want it wait.
2020-5-2
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Thanks for info, I was planing to buy from UK. But now i changed my plan.
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gnirtS
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Ian in London Posted at 5-1 23:01
That's disappointing to read gnirt.  I had already thought it would be a bit pointless to be informed of an airliner passing over at 25,000 ft, but a light aircraft or helicopter would be very useful....  Either way, would be nice if I had been able to play with it myself

Well if you want to see what ADSB can offer you can built a receiver yourself.  Just buy a £12 DVB-T usb stick and plug it into a phone with the correct software (android).
Or just a laptop, desktop, Raspberry Pi etc.

Failing that, download flightradar24 app or similar - its ADS-B but with opt-out lists and only displays whats in range of other peoples receivers (so high altitude long range, lower altitudes shorter).

But ultimately the most likely things to conflict with a drone are going to be GA light aircraft, helicopters, military, gliders and similar.  By and large most of these do not have ADSB transmitters so wont show at all.

Im not worried about being buzzed by an A380 or binliner at 400ft flying my drone at all (which ADSB will show) - im far more worried about a C172 or Eurofighter down there catching me by surprise (which generally ADSB wont).

If you're operating PfCO or in proximity to airports i can see Airsense being much more useful but in that case i'd also expect you to have telephone and/or VHF radio contact with ATC which kind of negates it.


Even in the US where ADSB is in theory mandatory from 2020 the last figures i can see from Q4 2019 state only 44% of GA are fitted.Results from a UK CAA survey (admittedly 2 years old):
"Only one-in-six fixed-wing aeroplane pilots reported using ADS-B already, mostly integrated with a Mode S transponder. A further third of pilots fly aeroplanes that are Mode S equipped, but have not been adapted to use ADS-B. Meanwhile, almost 90 per cent of glider pilots who responded use FLARM – the anti-collision system designed specifically for gliders."

But really, if anyone is curious about ADSB coverage in their area look into spending £20 or so and building a receiver (usb stick into laptop - its a 10 minute job).  You'll rapidly get a feel for what a/c you can see outside display and what dont.

I use a DVB-T stick plugged into a RaPi to provide me with local coverage and also feed the data to fr24 and several other suppliers from home.

Ive never used this but you can see what i mean about how easy it is to self-build:-

https://null-byte.wonderhowto.co ... smartphone-0179666/

https://www.rtl-sdr.com/android- ... d-aircraft-display/

Or using a RaPi/Pi Zero:-   https://www.allaboutcircuits.com ... ware-defined-radio/

so ultimately, if you're bored,go ahead and try it just to see if you think its worth it based on whats received.  If you DO think you need it, a PiZero is tiny and can easily travel in your drone bag to the flight location.  But as i said, you'd be surprised how limited the use is for the standard drone operating distances, heights and locations.

(Personally, i'd much rather a device to alert me to other DRONES.  In busy areas ive seen a few near misses).








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bjr981s Posted at 5-2 00:19
I have checked the posts in this thread and cant find that post from Mindy.

There is a post from another member that suggests that might be the case. But its only a guess.

Id say using that analogy its more like supplying a car and saying "We're short of 2 rear hub caps to make the wheel look nice".

Its a feature that although nice, isnt actually that useful for most people safety wise.
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castormalin Posted at 5-1 05:49
Can you please show me the official statment from DJI saying they will retrofit the EU MA2's with ADS-B  for free ? I've missed that

I think your like a little terrier with nothing better to do, above your post Ice_2k has been in direct touch with dji and has posted his conversation,
I hope the matter is cleared up for you now.
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gnirtS Posted at 5-2 02:29
Well if you want to see what ADSB can offer you can built a receiver yourself.  Just buy a £12 DVB-T usb stick and plug it into a phone with the correct software (android).
Or just a laptop, desktop, Raspberry Pi etc.

I understand it’s pretty limited, but will it be upgradable, I’m more thinking will it ever have capability to spot other drones in its flight path , or is it visible for ATC to see drones .
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hallmark007 Posted at 5-2 02:41
I understand it’s pretty limited, but will it be upgradable, I’m more thinking will it ever have capability to spot other drones in its flight path , or is it visible for ATC to see drones .

If you fitted a dronr with ADSB-Out then they'd display like any other aircraft.
The issue is the system really isnt designed for that much extra traffic and at low level etc - its already fairly saturated in some areas.  There's also the extra weight, battery etc.

AFAIK ADSB out is *not* the preferred option being investigated by anyone for drone remote ID.

Its not a new system, its been around a *very* long time now and in worldwide use.  Upgrades are unlikely as there's no reason to do so as it works well enough for the intended job.  (That said, it has ZERO security, its trivial for anyone with a HackRF to inject fake contacts, tracks and whatever you want with almost no knowledge.  No encryption, no data validation).

Given the low speed, low altitude and localised nature of drones its most likely they'll use a different system.  You need a range of 1-2 miles at most.
FWIW there already is a type of remote ID which is how Aeroscope works.  The issue is getting all manufacturers and bodies to agree on a protocol so they can all use the same.

AirSense itself might slowly become more useful for a drone user as takeup increases, especially in the US but i suspect the takeup rate of ADSB on aircraft is going to take a lot longer than the average lifespan of a drone anyway.
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gnirtS Posted at 5-2 02:46
If you fitted a dronr with ADSB-Out then they'd display like any other aircraft.
The issue is the system really isnt designed for that much extra traffic and at low level etc - its already fairly saturated in some areas.  There's also the extra weight, battery etc.

Yeah I realize we’ve had Remote Id on drones since P4 Mavic pro, and it looks like EASA will be going down this route as far a identifiable drones, I do imagine that a system will be developed into the future particularly if we see automated drone delivery, U-Space between 400/500 ft for commercial activity expected to arrive in the sky’s , I think it’s still a few years away but I know that some trials were carried out at some hospitals during Covid19 lockdowns . Maybe Amazon or similar will develop an Air traffic system for drones anything is possible.
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"Detect and avoid" is already being tested.
That said, there's a temporary danger area this month between the UK and Isle of Wight for drone medical deliveries lacking that feature (BVLOS route).

Remote ID i can see being a low power, microwave beacon.  It only needs to be very short ranged and very basic info so could be done light weight and low power.

The other option is sniff the details off the telemetry which Aeroscope already does.  The issue with that is all the drone makers use different transmission protocols, different frequencies and nothing is standard so i cant see that taking off popularity wise.

Something like a cut down version of FLARM in the 2.4GHz band (with public domain protocols) would seem appropriate.  I can see this dragging on for literally years before a standard emerges.
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Thanks for the heads-up Ian, I share the same opinion. I will pass until DJI “fixes” this issues...
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sbonev Posted at 5-1 04:44
i already have seen several helis a lot lower than 400m, actually here they fly at around 100 m quite often and the other day i saw one fly quite close to my mini...and i don't see why are you so eagerly defending dji? simply put they sell something that lacks the hardware they sell on another market and intentionally hide it. That is not good business practice and definitely something i will endorse and support by buying. It is that simple. Price is same in the USA and here, specs are not and more so they are hiding it. So i won't buy it!!! And EASA rules might be on hold, but how much of an overhead is to put a label to stick to them? they won't be in too much of expenses to adhere to it and it will be good for consumers. But i guess it is a lot better for them to ensure you will have to buy new drone from them in 3 years. No matter how many times you repeat the same things and try to convince everybody it is no big deal, it still is big enough to not be tolerated by customers in EU market.

It is a BIG deal and DJI stated that they would have fitted all drones with it but due to Covid-19 they didn’t had enough parts. So it is obviously IMPORTANT. Don’t mind the different lap- dogs trying to convince you otherwise...

I personally will only buy a new DJI product when and if compliant with EU regulations. There’s also the fact that any non-compliant drone in 2 years from now will become a “legacy” product, limited to fly in very specific areas. I want to be able to sell my drones in the future.
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EASA non-compliance is a big issue for certain.  In 2.5 years or so it'll be severely restricted in use.  There are 2 sides to blame here - DJI for releasing now but mainly the EU/EASA that despite having the rules and systems drafted for 3-4 years now still havent bothered launching any sort of certification program.  Until they do, DJI are powerless.

ADSB isnt important.  Has very little use for drone operators.
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thanks for this warning, this is pretty important
or maybe it's DJI plan, to force that way customers to buy another drone in 2 years :/

for me that's a deal breaker - there would be a workaround, if DJI would upgrade current drones sold now in EU for free (when they ready and got all biurocracy solved). but to say now it will be extra $$$, and I'm pretty sure expensiv one, as that would be whole motherboard exchange... I prefer to skip MA2
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gnirtS Posted at 5-2 07:04
ADSB isnt important.  Has very little use for drone operators.

MA2 is not important neither
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KREMi Posted at 5-2 07:19
thanks for this warning, this is pretty important
or maybe it's DJI plan, to force that way customers to buy another drone in 2 years :/

CE class certification according to EASA is not retrospective. So if you buy a MA2 now, you can never get it certified as a drone class even when the process exists.
If you want a MA2, best to wait until DJI get it certified THEN buy.
That said, you're dealing with the EU so the process could be any time from "in the future" to "never" before its rolled out.
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I have read through the coming EU regulations and I think that when the regulations come into effect 07.2020 (or 01.2021), the MA2 without C1 certification can only be operated in A3 category or A2 (you have to get the A2 licence). So when I buy the MA2 now without C1 mark I already have a huge disadvantage in a few months.
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If later MA2,s do get the Ce mark I wonder if someone on eBay for example will make a little sticker to put on your bought now MA2 I am sure that would convince your average plod if they ever checked

I suspect the EU will not get its act together on this for ages
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Bigplumbs Posted at 5-2 22:11
If later MA2,s do get the Ce mark I wonder if someone on eBay for example will make a little sticker to put on your bought now MA2 I am sure that would convince your average plod if they ever checked

I suspect the EU will not get its act together on this for ages

Exactly!  And ultimately who is going to know?  PC Plod won't have a clue, so would have even less of a clue if there was a realistic sticker in place.  As with all these rules, they're unknown and unenforceable, until something happens and you're investigated.   
But fundamentally, if ti's safe to fly the Mavic Air 2 50 metres away from people and buildings today, why would it suddenly become any different in 2.5 years time just because it doesn't have a sticker but patches the specs of the then certified MA2 then...... If the specs are the same or satisfy the requirements, there's no excuse for not allowing retrospective certification....
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Depends how much of a pain they want to be.
As you need to register the drone with serial number, if they wanted to be pedantic they could check the registration date or maybe a serial number lookup to see if its valid or not.
I would say they're highly unlikely to bother doing that BUT in the last few weeks we've seen them searching peoples shopping in the street and issuing fines for buying easter eggs so who knows....

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hallmark007 Posted at 5-2 03:28
Yeah I realize we’ve had Remote Id on drones since P4 Mavic pro, and it looks like EASA will be going down this route as far a identifiable drones, I do imagine that a system will be developed into the future particularly if we see automated drone delivery, U-Space between 400/500 ft for commercial activity expected to arrive in the sky’s , I think it’s still a few years away but I know that some trials were carried out at some hospitals during Covid19 lockdowns . Maybe Amazon or similar will develop an Air traffic system for drones anything is possible.

We have had Amazon Drone delivery in pilot in the ACT (Australian Capital Territory) for almost 12 month now.

I don't know if they are broadcasting ADS-B or not. I was hoping to find out but alas, No RX on AU Air 2s.

Cheers
2020-5-3
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