The Rule of 180 says to get a slightly blurred effect and more realistic/cinematic looking video, you should strive for a shutter speed twice the frames per second.  I shoot 4K 30FPS so the rule says I should try for a 1/60th shutter speed.  Shooting in the bright sun of the Great Southwest, I'm forced to use/guesstimate an ND filter which will reduce the shutter speed to 1/60th.  And then I wonder...when I shoot my still camera 1/60th is about the slowest shutter speed I can use before I have to use a tripod.  Any movement on my part causes blurring in my photo. So, if I'm flying my MA2 and shooting while flying across the ground, what keeps the whole video from looking blurred and never seeing my subject sharp and crisp???  Is the Rule of 180 a realistic goal when you're travelling at warp speed (Normal mode...light speed is Sport) 200' above the ground with the gimbal tilted slightly down???

That question has me confused  

Suren Posted at 10-27 21:12
That question has me confused

In what way???  That you see my point and would like to know the answer yourself...or you don't know what I'm asking.  To rephrase my original question...are there times, especially when you are flying fast and close to or aimed more at the ground than straight ahead, when the Rule of 180 doesn't apply and you should go with a higher shutter speed???

I see what you asking but when it comes to these shutter speeds and setting them makes my head hurt, I just shoot in auto and hope for the best. Would love to learn more about these but it just seems so complicated.

Suren Posted at 10-27 22:10
I see what you asking but when it comes to these shutter speeds and setting them makes my head hurt, I just shoot in auto and hope for the best. Would love to learn more about these but it just seems so complicated.

This is a pretty good explanation by Ian in London...   

The 180 rule is to create motion blur in the image that is natural to the human eye. So when recording in 4K-30p @ 1/60th if anything is moving in the image it will be perceived to be more realistic. If you freeze frame the video you will notice that the image will look blurred rather than crisp.

The 180 rule is optimal for that purpose but the slower the shutter speed the more motion blur will apply. So you do not need to strictly follow 30-1/60. If your shutter speed is 1/100th recording at 30p you will still notice motion blur but simply not as much as with the 180 rule. On the flip side, if the shutter speed is even slower than 1/60th the video will be too blurred which is why you need very aggressive ND filters like an ND256 or ND1000 for long exposure photography. Slower shutter speeds also help stop flickering effects in the image. With all of that said,  there are some people who prefer crisp, sharp footage and do not use ND filters for that purpose. Also, if your drone is 200' AGL there is little motion to blur.

I too use to be very particular about the 180 rule but like Suren, I'll just throw an ND8 or ND16 on the lens now depending on how bright it is, set the camera to auto (often using HDR vid anyway) and let the camera do the work. At 100 to 400 feet up there is no difference to my eye.

A J Posted at 10-27 22:56
The 180 rule is to create motion blur in the image that is natural to the human eye. So when recording in 4K-30p @ 1/60th if anything is moving in the image it will be perceived to be more realistic. If you freeze frame the video you will notice that the image will look blurred rather than crisp.

The 180 rule is optimal for that purpose but the slower the shutter speed the more motion blur will apply. So you do not need to strictly follow 30-1/60. If your shutter speed is 1/100th recording at 30p you will still notice motion blur but simply not as much as with the 180 rule. On the flip side, if the shutter speed is even slower than 1/60th the video will be too blurred which is why you need very aggressive ND filters like an ND256 or ND1000 for long exposure photography. Slower shutter speeds also help stop flickering effects in the image. With all of that said,  there are some people who prefer crisp, sharp footage and do not use ND filters for that purpose. Also, if your drone is 200' AGL there is little motion to blur.

Yeah...but at 200 feet looking 45 degrees down and flying at full Normal speed, there is a lot of motion.  The whole view in the screen is moving and at 1/60th, I would think the whole screen is a blur.  A lot of times if I don't use an ND filter, I'm up at 1/560th to 1/800th for proper manual exposure at 100 ISO.

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:06
Yeah...but at 200 feet looking 45 degrees down and flying at full Normal speed, there is a lot of motion.  The whole view in the screen is moving and at 1/60th, I would think the whole screen is a blur.  A lot of times if I don't use an ND filter, I'm up at 1/560th to 1/800th for proper manual exposure at 100 ISO.

I agree with using the Auto mode...I aim the gimbal at my most important part of the subject that I want the exposure set to and then AE Lock.  But I never know what the Auto mode prioritizes...ISO or shutter speed...am I going to get some pixelization because of high ISO when I shoot just after sundown???

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:06
Yeah...but at 200 feet looking 45 degrees down and flying at full Normal speed, there is a lot of motion.  The whole view in the screen is moving and at 1/60th, I would think the whole screen is a blur.  A lot of times if I don't use an ND filter, I'm up at 1/560th to 1/800th for proper manual exposure at 100 ISO.

Anything moving within the frame will be blurred. The core purpose of the ND filter is to reduce the shutter speed to gain more motion blur in the image. The higher the drone/further the moving subject is the less pronounced the motion blur will be. The same frame at 30' will look a lot more blurred.

A J Posted at 10-27 23:23
Anything moving within the frame will be blurred. The core purpose of the ND filter is to reduce the shutter speed to gain more motion blur in the image. The higher the drone/further the moving subject is the less pronounced the motion blur will be. The same frame at 30' will look a lot more blurred.

So I guess the answer is somewhere in between.  If the purpose of movement is to reposition the camera as in panning/yawing, then what is being recorded during the yaw is not the priority and blur is acceptable and makes the transition look smoother.  But if the movement is the focus of your video...like flying low level up a tight canyon...then you probably don't want the blur. Agree or disagree???

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:31
So I guess the answer is somewhere in between.  If the purpose of movement is to reposition the camera as in panning/yawing, then what is being recorded during the yaw is not the priority and blur is acceptable and makes the transition look smoother.  But if the movement is the focus of your video...like flying low level up a tight canyon...then you probably don't want the blur. Agree or disagree???

Which is why you need to slow the yaw sensitivity and smoothness settings to pan slowly and hence why doing so is often referred to as creating more cinematic looking footage and why we have a tripod mode. If you yaw the drone too quickly whilst following the 180 rule the image will look like a messy blur and in most cases will be totally unusable.

A J Posted at 10-27 23:42
Which is why you need to slow the yaw sensitivity and smoothness settings to pan slowly and hence why doing so is often referred to as creating more cinematic looking footage and why we have a tripod mode. If you yaw the drone too quickly whilst following the 180 rule the image will look like a messy blur and in most cases will be totally unusable.

Thanks for the input!!!

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:43
Thanks for the input!!!

You're welcome. It is indeed quite a complicated thing as so many variables impact on it and 90% of the time you'll get better footage with auto settings - definitely good enough for recreational users.

Good point.
This is exactly why I don't use ND filters unless I really have to (like for a critical video project)
Plus, as you move your drone around, the lighting situation will change, requiring you to fly back, get another density and move on.

So I revert to flying slowly and reduce the risk of stutter that way.

Im using a variable ND filter,  makes it a lot easier to adjust for the weather,  also with practice you can almost look at the sky and choose what you need,  it just comes down to practice and experience.

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:06
Yeah...but at 200 feet looking 45 degrees down and flying at full Normal speed, there is a lot of motion.  The whole view in the screen is moving and at 1/60th, I would think the whole screen is a blur.  A lot of times if I don't use an ND filter, I'm up at 1/560th to 1/800th for proper manual exposure at 100 ISO.

at 200 feet looking 45 degrees down and flying at full Normal speed, there is a lot of motion.  

The whole view in the screen is moving and at 1/60th, I would think the whole screen is a blur.
But as you've seen there isn't much motion to blur 200 ft up.
Try doing that just 10 feet up and you'll see the difference.
The 180° "rule" really isn't important unless you have movement close to the camera (and even then it's just a personal choice).
Instead of unthinkingly following a "rule", try shooting with and without to see how much difference it makes (or doesn't make).

Thanks - good thread.  

From a still photography perspective the rule of thumb when hand-holding  is to keep your shutter speed faster than 1/ focal length - and for stabilised lenses you can get away with another stop or so.  

What's the focal length of the lenses in the MA2?  It's pretty wide - specs say format corrected is 24mm.  This means you should be able to get down to 1/30 on shutter speed even without stabilisation without drone motion blur. With the gimbal it means you're likely to not see any drone motion blur even down to 1/15 etc...  Obviously subjects in the frame can be moving, and would be blurred, but sometimes as a photographer you want that - e.g. water, clouds, vehicles can make nice effects when moving in frame if it's a slow enough shutter speed.

I'm new to video so the discussion on wanting to introduce that motion is fascinating and answers the questions as to why super high shutter speeds for lower frame rates tends to make scenes look unrealistic...

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 22:47
This is a pretty good explanation by Ian in London...   https://youtu.be/-KeAo3mhuoA

Thanks for this

DAFlys Posted at 10-28 01:06
Im using a variable ND filter,  makes it a lot easier to adjust for the weather,  also with practice you can almost look at the sky and choose what you need,  it just comes down to practice and experience.

When you use a VND, does the sky change intensity when doing a 360 Pano like when using a polarizing filter???

Rustic17 Posted at 10-28 09:12
When you use a VND, does the sky change intensity when doing a 360 Pano like when using a polarizing filter???

No, you get that effect with a ND filter.

DAFlys Posted at 10-28 09:34
No, you get that effect with a ND filter.

So you don't get it with a VND but you do get it with an ND and PL filter??

Rustic17 Posted at 10-28 10:23
So you don't get it with a VND but you do get it with an ND and PL filter??

No you only get it with a polariser or a really poor quality ND filter.

DAFlys Posted at 10-28 10:28
No you only get it with a polariser or a really poor quality ND filter.

Thanks...the "no" to my question was what I wanted to hear but the rest of your answer confused me when you said "you get that effect with a ND filter".

Rustic17 Posted at 10-28 09:12
When you use a VND, does the sky change intensity when doing a 360 Pano like when using a polarizing filter???

When you use a VND, does the sky change intensity when doing a 360 Pano like when using a polarizing filter???
Yes, it does.
Because a variable ND filter is two polarising filters.
https://www.photographytalk.com/how-does-a-variable-nd-filter-work

The suggestion that a bad ND filter will sounds dubious.
The N in ND is for Neutral because it doesn't change anything except the anount of light that gets through.

Labroides Posted at 10-28 18:36
When you use a VND, does the sky change intensity when doing a 360 Pano like when using a polarizing filter???
Yes, it does.
Because a variable ND filter is two polarising filters.

So to have even sky throughout the 360 Pano, don't use any VND or PL filter???  But a normal ND filter is okay???

Rustic17 Posted at 10-28 18:55
So to have even sky throughout the 360 Pano, don't use any VND or PL filter???  But a normal ND filter is okay???

that is correct. I am using all kinds of filters (ND, ND/PL and VND). Both the ND/PLs and the VND are generating those dark patches in the sky when doing panos

Rustic17 Posted at 10-27 23:31
But if the movement is the focus of your video...like flying low level up a tight canyon...then you probably don't want the blur. Agree or disagree???

Disagree. You always want the motion blur in video (unless you're planning on extracting stills from the video later on). The whole point of the 180deg rule is to make the footage look the same way as it does when just looking normally at the world around you. And we always see blur. A good example of this is just waving your hand in front of the camera or in front of your face. It should look blurred. The main reason for this is that if you're shooting with such a high shutter speed that your hand looks completely sharp, when watching the footage your eyes will be able to see the unnatural jump the hand makes from one frame to the next. You're basically gonna see your hand completely stationary for a small interval (1/30s) and then suddenly move to a different location where it appears stationary again, making it appear to be "stuttering".
If you want your subject to not be as blurred while still maintaining the natural look, the only way is to increase the framerate.

Rustic17 Posted at 10-28 10:55
Thanks...the "no" to my question was what I wanted to hear but the rest of your answer confused me when you said "you get that effect with a ND filter".

You won't have that issue with a good quality ND filter,  a cheap one may cause it if its not a consistent grade across the entire filter.

I can see your comparison to photography here, sure capturing a photograph at less than 1/60th of a second creates a bit of blur unless you are using a tripod. This might sound counter intuitive but thats exactly what you want to happen with video. Think of a video like a flip book, each frame is a photograph, 1 every 30 milliseconds, setting the shutter to 1/60th of a second will allow an exposure time of just 16.66 milliseconds for each photograph, this is just enough to create a small amount of motion blur between each photograph that when played in a sequence wont be noticeable but creates a smooth effect between each photograph for anything moving. Objects that don't move much will retain sharpness. Because your drone has a stabilised camera and its subjects tend to be much further away they will retain more detail. If, as you say, you point the camera at the ground and fly forward at speed, you will get a very blurry image indeed. If you were to fly low to the ground with the camera tilted down slightly, the horizon and objects in the distance would appear sharp while the ground and subjects moving toward the camera would slowly become more blurry.

The 180 rule is great for creating cinematic looking footage but it's not really a rule. You can use the shutter for any creative effect. For example, shooting at 30fps and a shutter speed about 90 creates an effect mostly used in action sequences in movies, a small amount of stutter to break up the motion blur creates almost a nightmarish feel, like the story is flashing before your eyes. Shooting at 60fps and a shutter of 120 allows you to slow footage down by half to 30fps and keep that cinematic movement while creating a pleasing effect of seeing something in slow motion, great for shots flying over a lake where a bird might be taking off. You could even do 240/500 for a super slow motion while retaining that cinematic look if your drone has that feature.
Seeing talk of ND filters is a good point, all the ND filter is for is to allow you to expose your image based on a fixed shutter. If its a bright day you might need a stronger ND filter. Shooting at higher shutter speeds, you might not need one at all.

experiment and have fun

Ice_2k Posted at 10-29 01:21
Disagree. You always want the motion blur in video (unless you're planning on extracting stills from the video later on). The whole point of the 180deg rule is to make the footage look the same way as it does when just looking normally at the world around you. And we always see blur. A good example of this is just waving your hand in front of the camera or in front of your face. It should look blurred. The main reason for this is that if you're shooting with such a high shutter speed that your hand looks completely sharp, when watching the footage your eyes will be able to see the unnatural jump the hand makes from one frame to the next. You're basically gonna see your hand completely stationary for a small interval (1/30s) and then suddenly move to a different location where it appears stationary again, making it appear to be "stuttering".
If you want your subject to not be as blurred while still maintaining the natural look, the only way is to increase the framerate.

You always want the motion blur in video. ...
The whole point of the 180deg rule is to make the footage look the same way as it does when just looking normally at the world around you. And we always see blur. A good example of this is just waving your hand in front of the camera or in front of your face.
That's fine if you use the drone to video your hand waving in front of the camera.
But I still haven't seen anyone do that.
Not many drone videos have have moving subjects close to the camera.
Most drone videos have static landscape scenery a hundred feet or more from the drone and there's no motion to blur.

Labroides Posted at 10-29 05:28
You always want the motion blur in video. ...
The whole point of the 180deg rule is to make the footage look the same way as it does when just looking normally at the world around you. And we always see blur. A good example of this is just waving your hand in front of the camera or in front of your face.
That's fine if you use the drone to video your hand waving in front of the camera.

the waving hand was obviously just an example, it's an easy way to visualize that "oh yeah, I really do see things blurred".
While I agree that for scenery typically it doesn't matter that much, there are certain motions that make this apparent, reveal shots in particular where you're either yawing the drone or raising the gimbal. When the camera itself is moving, it doesn't matter that much that the subject is hundreds of feet away, a high shutter speed will get you stuttery-looking images unless you're moving the gimbal very slowly.
In my normal footage, I don't follow the 180-deg rule "to the letter", but I'm always using ND filters. If I can get it to 1/80 or even 1/100, I'll be happy with that, I won't land the drone just for that. I just don't want to be shooting with 1/1000, for that scenario it really stands out like a sore thumb, even for landscapes, at least to my eyes.

Just did a test of my own...Freewell PL, Pgytech 2-5 VND (16 ND setting), and the 16 ND provided in the MA2 combo...all three have the color variations in the sky which really detracts from the 360 Pano image produced.  I guess I'll just use a UV filter to protect the lens and call it a day.