Geo_Drone Posted at 9-22 04:27
Hi Mike,

Unfortunately there is far from being polished for low light...

Hi Geo bud,

   I see what you mean.   I actually never tried Mavic 3 in low light, most I tried was in the evening when the sun is still out, that worked fine for me. DJI unlocked HLG 10 bit HDR in firmware updates at the end of the Spring, I checked the MP4 files it produces with MediaInfo , it does look like BT.2020 HLG 10 bit , the only thing is color range is limited in H.265, but it might be full in ProRes 422 / 422HQ. I see your points, it's not a perfect drone, but imho it does the job done for me and I shoot in HLG 10 bit H.265. I wish there was higher ISO available in HLG than 800 , imho that would help with night shooting, it seems I can't get it higher than 800 unless I am missing something. Not sure how high Autel's ISO goes to for night shooting, maybe they allow for higher ISO. I don't do night / low light shooting and Mavic 3 works great for me in that respect.

Take care, Mike.

Mzp Posted at 9-22 05:57
Hi Geo bud,

   I see what you mean.   I actually never tried Mavic 3 in low light, most I tried was in the evening when the sun is still out, that worked fine for me. DJI unlocked HLG 10 bit HDR in firmware updates at the end of the Spring, I checked the MP4 files it produces with MediaInfo , it does look like BT.2020 HLG 10 bit , the only thing is color range is limited in H.265, but it might be full in ProRes 422 / 422HQ. I see your points, it's not a perfect drone, but imho it does the job done for me and I shoot in HLG 10 bit H.265. I wish there was higher ISO available in HLG than 800 , imho that would help with night shooting, it seems I can't get it higher than 800 unless I am missing something. Not sure how high Autel's ISO goes to for night shooting, maybe they allow for higher ISO. I don't do night / low light shooting and Mavic 3 works great for me in that respect.

Hi Mike,
Yes...
Autel in pure HDR+LOG is going up to ISO 6400 but is usable up to 1600. Basically Autel did not locked the settings, in manual mode you can do whatever you want, and that was great.
Of course, in combination of HDR and LOG you never need more than ISO 800, even so is extremely light in scene even in very dark areas....I use up to ISO 400 in this combination, up to ISO 800 only HDR without LOG...but this is the difference...Autel have all range from 0 to 255, M3 is Limited...also Autel made a great job with that crazy Sony sensor IMX383, boosting it in ways never achieved by DJI...
I was making a clip this days with clouds and sunset...HLG, ISO 400, manual... I was very unpleased by the DR of sensor...is so limited that it compressing a lot in darks and super highlights...and this is seen instantly....also a lot but A LOT of magenta in grey areas...was guys here that were laughing at Ev2Pro that is having a little magenta because of IMX sensor...I invite them to look again at Mavic 3 sensor, is more magenta than Autel...a lot more...and can be seen instantly if you boost colors, look at greys becoming magenta and histogram going nuts...
You can work with it? YES !... But for a drone that was everywhere promoted as a cinematic drone, it just zucks.
And this is my opinion and I can prove it at any hour ....
In rest I cannot complain about M3, have pluses and minuses, but the camera is way under expectations.
Have great flights Mike.
Cheers.
G

Geo_Drone Posted at 9-23 05:26
Hi Mike,
Yes...
Autel in pure HDR+LOG is going up to ISO 6400 but is usable up to 1600. Basically Autel did not locked the settings, in manual mode you can do whatever you want, and that was great.

Hi Geo bud,

     I respect your point of view. I think Autel Evo II Pro is a great drone on its own. I just wanted to say in Mavic 3's defense that if you have Mavic 3 Cine and using any ProRes codec 422LT, 422, 422HQ, imho the color range should be full as fast as I understand. I don't use ProRes as I use H.265 HLG and I am not really bothered by Mavic 3 color range being limited, it does compress darks and specular a little, but not much. The full range for HDR 10 bit is 0 to 1024 shades, with color range being limited, it is 64 to 960 shades , imho I can live with that, if I stay in the middle of the histogram I can easily recover blacks, darks , shadows and get good highlight range. I actually have Evo II Pro now as well and the camera being great, it is nowhere close to DJI's drones in terms of control of the drone. The gimbal control, the jerkiness during moves, the range of signal, ability to make cinematic moves without jerkiness, all that seems lacking in Autel drones, so my primary drone is still Mavic 3 In any case I totally respect your option and thank you for sharing it. I did not notice magenta casts in videos so far, but I am using ND with CPL, not sure if that affects this. In regards to ISO, I wish DJI unlocked higher than 800 ISO in HLG for late evening flying, I understand that this would produce a lot of noise, but imho that can be cleaned up easily with Neat Video or built in noise reduction in apps like Davinci Resolve. Thanks for you sharing bud and happy flying!!!

Thank you, Mike.

Mzp Posted at 9-25 06:48
Hi Geo bud,

     I respect your point of view. I think Autel Evo II Pro is a great drone on its own. I just wanted to say in Mavic 3's defense that if you have Mavic 3 Cine and using any ProRes codec 422LT, 422, 422HQ, imho the color range should be full as fast as I understand. I don't use ProRes as I use H.265 HLG and I am not really bothered by Mavic 3 color range being limited, it does compress darks and specular a little, but not much. The full range for HDR 10 bit is 0 to 1024 shades, with color range being limited, it is 64 to 960 shades , imho I can live with that, if I stay in the middle of the histogram I can easily recover blacks, darks , shadows and get good highlight range. I actually have Evo II Pro now as well and the camera being great, it is nowhere close to DJI's drones in terms of control of the drone. The gimbal control, the jerkiness during moves, the range of signal, ability to make cinematic moves without jerkiness, all that seems lacking in Autel drones, so my primary drone is still Mavic 3  In any case I totally respect your option and thank you for sharing it. I did not notice magenta casts in videos so far, but I am using ND with CPL, not sure if that affects this. In regards to ISO, I wish DJI unlocked higher than 800 ISO in HLG for late evening flying, I understand that this would produce a lot of noise, but imho that can be cleaned up easily with Neat Video or built in noise reduction in apps like Davinci Resolve. Thanks for you sharing bud and happy flying!!!

So true Mike...
For Evo2 enter in Precision Mode....Will have a nice surprise ...It can be slowed down under the Tripod mode from DJI, a lot slower.
Also write me to tell you how to reduce the movement even in normal mode at 50% sensitivity, will become a DJI drone at this point in matter of control.
I use also both, but I have many footage that needs to be taken also at night and at that point there is no chance to go with any but Autel...For day I use M3...

Geo_Drone Posted at 9-30 02:52
So true Mike...
For Evo2 enter in Precision Mode....Will have a nice surprise  ...It can be slowed down under the Tripod mode from DJI, a lot slower.
Also write me to tell you how to reduce the movement even in normal mode at 50% sensitivity, will become a DJI drone at this point in matter of control.

Hi Geo bud,

      I noticed that in Evo 2 there is an option to reduce speed, wish DJI implemented a parameter the same way to reduce top speed for each mode - Cine, Normal , Sports. I hear you on night mode, does Autel allow for higher ISO than 800 btw, DJI has 800 ISO as a maximum for HLG and most likely for DLog as well. Also wanted to ask you how to slow down Mavic 3 to 50% sensitivity, do you mean to use EXP settings ? If you are not comfortable sharing here, I can PM you

Thank you, Mike.

Mzp Posted at 9-30 06:03
Hi Geo bud,

      I noticed that in Evo 2 there is an option to reduce speed, wish DJI implemented a parameter the same way to reduce top speed for each mode - Cine, Normal , Sports. I hear you on night mode, does Autel allow for higher ISO than 800 btw, DJI has 800 ISO as a maximum for HLG and most likely for DLog as well. Also wanted to ask you how to slow down Mavic 3 to 50% sensitivity, do you mean to use EXP settings  ? If you are not comfortable sharing here, I can PM you

Hi Mike,
No problem writing here...I was meaning for Autel that can be slowed to 50% or more....Practically in PRECISION Mode you can set it in a very slow movement (LINEAR slow - very important), also at EXP you can define the max response in sticks movement, meaning that you can get Evo2 in a movement of under 1m/s...almost close to 0....
This is not working at DJI....
At this point I have asked DJI to implement same thing to their app, as Tripod mode in Mavic 3 is far too sensitive for cinematic movements, and even a slight modification of position in sticks can ruin video.
The EXP is not helpful, as you can modify the response curve up to middle of stick movement, but is NON LINEAR, meaning you get a totally unpredicted movement at each point....this is not Cinematic by far....
So...let's hope that will be more from here to write DJI about this and ask to implement it.

DAFlys Posted at 2021-11-11 01:45
I wonder if thats one of the reasons they include ND filters.

Why would that be a reason? The use of any ND filter would require you to use a HIGHER ISO to give a similar exposure level. Although the OP doesn't say whether he wants to raise or lower the ISO choices.

Are you wanting to have a higher or lower ISO choice, or just asking why it's locked?

DaveteaUK Posted at 10-3 04:52
Why would that be a reason? The use of any ND filter would require you to use a HIGHER ISO to give a similar exposure level. Although the OP doesn't say whether he wants to raise or lower the ISO choices.

I was referring to the high iso for normal filming.  It would require a faster shutter speed thus breaking the 180 rule even easier.  

Geo_Drone Posted at 10-3 01:36
Hi Mike,
No problem writing here...I was meaning for Autel that can be slowed to 50% or more....Practically in PRECISION Mode you can set it in a very slow movement (LINEAR slow - very important), also at EXP you can define the max response in sticks movement, meaning that you can get Evo2 in a movement of under 1m/s...almost close to 0....
This is not working at DJI....

Hi Geo buddy,

        I hear you on this. Mavic 2 Pro had these controls if I am not mistaken. It would be nice if those controls from Mavic 2 could be ported to Mavic 3. Also hoping that DJI would implement these as there have been many requests from people on here to implement Tripod like mode on Mavic 3.

Take care, Mike.

DaveteaUK Posted at 10-3 04:53
Are you wanting to have a higher or lower ISO choice, or just asking why it's locked?

The faster the shutter “Shorter Shutter Speeds” the more noise you will create, so for this mode the ISO is set higher to avoid more noise rather than less noise, and this is quite common in many video cameras. Don’t be under the illusion that ISO is whats causing noise in your videos or photos, light is what causes noise low light to be specific and there are many ways to counteract this in your exposure triangle.

hallmark007 Posted at 10-3 09:01
The faster the shutter “Shorter Shutter Speeds” the more noise you will create, so for this mode the ISO is set higher to avoid more noise rather than less noise, and this is quite common in many video cameras. Don’t be under the illusion that ISO is whats causing noise in your videos or photos, light is what causes noise low light to be specific and there are many ways to counteract this in your exposure triangle.

ISO is in fact how bright is the image gathered from sensor...A simple explanation...as ISO increases, the brightess of image from sensor increases, but with it will also increase the brightness of pixels that have no information, so will create a noise pattern (from nothing you cannot get something, just noise).
Each sensor have a size for pixels (photodiodes), bigger pixels = bigger sensitivity = less noise.

So each time you increase the ISO, you induce a noise pattern from sensor as not all pixels have info in order to transmit to DAC for processing...
Technically, each photodiode from sensor is excited by the photons from a light source, creating a voltage...that voltage is sent to a convertor and is processed in order to give you that pixel from an image....if there is no photons, the sensor because is getting hot, will induce a parasitic voltage that converted is giving you one pixel of "noise".

Some smart people say that in fact is about light....of course is about light, as technical explanation shows why...but you can also use ISO increase as a lot of programs knows to find the pattern of noise from sensor and cancel it, giving you a final clear image...and is not like ground filming where you put some lights in order to keep ISO low, drone filming is a total other thing, your light comes mostly from Sun and Moon, hard to find a spot that is having so many light bulbs that you can afford a ISO 100 in night.

So we cannot resume at the fact that noise is not because of ISO...in fact, noise is a result of ISO increase, as you need the image to be brightner and voltage from photodiodes boosted. You can boost ISO not because you have enough light, but may boost it in order to go to a very fast SS in some scenarios and eliminate motion blur in some super slowed down footage, so this is in my opinion why affirmation that "NOISE = because of light and not ISO" is not covering all scenarios. (and some will say: Yes, but increasing light can save your ISO for fast moving scenes! ... well, not entirely true...increasing the light at one point will make your DR to crush, you just cannot say in all scenes: I have a super powerful light, can go to SS 1/4000 now! because you will see that when you get good highlights, your shadows will look like shyt.).

Cheers.

Geo_Drone Posted at 10-4 23:45
ISO is in fact how bright is the image gathered from sensor...A simple explanation...as ISO increases, the brightess of image from sensor increases, but with it will also increase the brightness of pixels that have no information, so will create a noise pattern (from nothing you cannot get something, just noise).
Each sensor have a size for pixels (photodiodes), bigger pixels = bigger sensitivity = less noise.

Yes but people forget or don’t realise that ISO is not the only symptom of noise or cause of noise and noise is a relationship of many factors and this is why we now see with many digital video cameras in log profile ISO set at higher values to compensate for higher noise ratios caused be for example shorter shutter speeds. I read many here who believe that ISO is the only cause of noise in both video and photo.

hallmark007 Posted at 10-5 00:15
Yes but people forget or don’t realise that ISO is not the only symptom of noise or cause of noise and noise is a relationship of many factors and this is why we now see with many digital video cameras in log profile ISO set at higher values to compensate for higher noise ratios caused be for example shorter shutter speeds. I read many here who believe that ISO is the only cause of noise in both video and photo.

I would say is because of how capable is the sensor...
If you look at Mavic 3 for example, at ISO 800 in night you get a ton of noise...
On contrary, if you look at Autel Evo2Pro and HDR profile, same ISO 800 will be almost crystal clear in night, with almost twice boosted light and shadows in scene, and does not have such aggressive noise filter as Mavic 3 in order to blur things...

So, noise is related to SENSOR capability + HOW GOOD IS IMPLEMENTED the DAC and noise filter...ISO is just a control of brightness for the sensor, a booster....and light is something you can get or not get, as we here talk about drones, not ground cameras where you can boost a scene with a projector.

I also recently got a Mavic 3 and found that Iso setting options were blocked on Dlog. 400, 800,1600 When I switched HLG, the iso options went from 100 to 1600. When I switched to normal profile then all of Iso's abilities unlocked. It's weird because I also have a Mavic 2 and I didn't have a similar problem with it!

On the Inspire 2 the ISOs in D-Log start at 800.

In the sensors the ISO have strange dynamics, in many Sony cameras for example the best results are both at 100 and at 400 ISO. Therefore the important thing is to know the dynamics of your sensor well.

Because BASE ISO IN DLOG IS 400

That's a great question. The reason why the ISO is locked at 400 when using DLOG (or any other flat/log profile) in pro mode is primarily to maintain the best possible dynamic range and image quality.
Let me break it down for you:  DLOG is a flat or log color profile that retains more information in the highlights and shadows of your image. It's a fantastic tool for post-processing and color grading since it gives you more flexibility to adjust exposure, contrast, and color balance during editing.  Now, the ISO setting determines how sensitive your camera's sensor is to light. Higher ISO values make the sensor more sensitive, which can result in brighter images, but it also introduces more noise. When shooting with a log profile like DLOG, the goal is to capture the most accurate and cleanest image data possible, which makes ISO 400 an optimal choice. This low ISO setting helps in reducing noise and preserving the maximum dynamic range, giving you more latitude in editing and achieving that cinematic look.  Of course, shooting at a higher ISO might seem tempting to get a brighter image, but the trade-off in noise and loss of dynamic range could limit your ability to get the best results in post-processing.

If you're shooting in low light situations and need more exposure, you might want to consider using additional lighting or adjusting your other settings like aperture and shutter speed.  In short, ISO 400 is locked in DLOG mode to provide you with the best starting point for achieving high-quality, editable footage. Keep in mind that every shooting situation is unique, so it's always a good idea to experiment and find what works best for your specific scenarios.  Happy shooting and editing! Let me know if you have any more questions.
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That's a great question. The reason why the ISO is locked at 400 when using DLOG (or any other flat/log profile) in pro mode is primarily to maintain the best possible dynamic range and image quality. Let me break it down for you:

DLOG is a flat or log color profile that retains more information in the highlights and shadows of your image. It's a fantastic tool for post-processing and color grading since it gives you more flexibility to adjust exposure, contrast, and color balance during editing.

Now, the ISO setting determines how sensitive your camera's sensor is to light. Higher ISO values make the sensor more sensitive, which can result in brighter images, but it also introduces more noise. When shooting with a log profile like DLOG, the goal is to capture the most accurate and cleanest image data possible, which makes ISO 400 an optimal choice. This low ISO setting helps in reducing noise and preserving the maximum dynamic range, giving you more latitude in editing and achieving that cinematic look.

Of course, shooting at a higher ISO might seem tempting to get a brighter image, but the trade-off in noise and loss of dynamic range could limit your ability to get the best results in post-processing. If you're shooting in low light situations and need more exposure, you might want to consider using additional lighting or adjusting your other settings like aperture and shutter speed.

In short, ISO 400 is locked in DLOG mode to provide you with the best starting point for achieving high-quality, editable footage. Keep in mind that every shooting situation is unique, so it's always a good idea to experiment and find what works best for your specific scenarios.

Happy shooting and editing! Let me know if you have any more questions.

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