This problem is introduced with latest Fly safe update for sure. It seems that it contains some corrupted data. I've seen few posts on this forum and few YouTube videos where drones are unable to ascend anymore over 0m height.

Correct what you write @Tuxtard
I had already written that X days ago to the user, who could not yet recover the drone,
that it was certainly due to the update of the Fly Safe zone, which is to blame for this error of not climbing over -0 meters.

I am glad i have declined that update for the last, good few weeks, although, i don't think i have ever flown sub 0 in height in all my few years of flying (3 i think poss 4), its so goddamn flat around here ;(

So here's an update: I contacted DJI Support and gave a brief description of what happened. I sycned my flight data upon their request, they said they would do an analysis. Within a few hours I received an email informing me that they would replace the drone as a warranty case.  I provided my shipping info and am now awaiting a follow-up which I presume will include a tracking number for the replacement.  (I will update the original post in this thread so anyone following along doesn't need to scroll through multiple pages of discussion.)

Thank you to all who contributed to the conversation (including those who thought it was simply pilot error - I understand that troubleshooting is an iterative process).  Thanks especially those who helped with analysis of the flight data, including @Sean-bumble-bee, @Labroides, @ Pinarek , @Tuxtard , @No Original Thought, @Bashy , and most of all to JJB*.  You all impressed me with your ability to gather insights from the available data and offer reasonable speculation.

I'm looking forward to flying my drone again (if it ever stops snowing/raining).  I probably won't be doing any flights for a while that go into "negative altitude" and require climbing back up above "zero altitude" to land safely.  Given that DJI was pretty quick to offer the warranty replacement (just a few hours after I synced flight data), it's not hard to imagine that there is an issue and they are aware of it.

Thanks again to all who provided their input.

Thanks for sharing.

So glad you found out exactly what the issue was and that its been satisfactorily resolved too, good result.
Just know, if it happens again you can land it as long as its flat and nothing can impede the props, then take off again, that should reset the height.

There is a caveat to the above though, once the antennas are on the ground, this can impede strength, so never land where you cannot successfully reach if needs be.
Just food for thought, again, glad ya got it sorted

Burstmode Posted at 1-5 21:42
So here's an update: I contacted DJI Support and gave a brief description of what happened. I sycned my flight data upon their request, they said they would do an analysis. Within a few hours I received an email informing me that they would replace the drone as a warranty case.  I provided my shipping info and am now awaiting a follow-up which I presume will include a tracking number for the replacement.  (I will update the original post in this thread so anyone following along doesn't need to scroll through multiple pages of discussion.)

Thank you to all who contributed to the conversation (including those who thought it was simply pilot error - I understand that troubleshooting is an iterative process).  Thanks especially those who helped with analysis of the flight data, including @Sean-bumble-bee, @Labroides, @ Pinarek , @Tuxtard , @No Original Thought, @Bashy , and most of all to JJB*.  You all impressed me with your ability to gather insights from the available data and offer reasonable speculation.

Hi Burstmode,

Good news from DJI and from  you!

Happy many landings with your replacement Mini2.

Guess DJI did not inform you about this error in their firmware/software.
Bug fixed in the next update....   ;-)

cheers
JJB

JJB* Posted at 1-6 01:45
Hi Burstmode,

Good news from DJI and from  you!

Guess DJI did not inform you about this error in their firmware/software.
Bug fixed in the next update....   ;-)

The emails I received from DJI have not included any mention of a cause (at least not yet).  So unless/until they make a public statement about it, users will need to make their own conclusions.  If they believed it was simply pilot error, I don't think they would be offering a replacement under waranty, so my conclusion is that the analysis and speculation in this thread is probably pretty accurate.

While I would prefer to see some statement from DJI explaining what happened (I think being transparent about the issue would be in the best interests of DJI's users and the best interest of the company too), and I'd hope they would offer recommendations to users about what they should do (or not do) to avoid losing their drone, I am not shocked that they may prefer not to "go public" with the cause, at least right now.  Maybe they are still confirming all the details, and they will address the issue briefly at some point when they are confident they know the cause and have a fix ready.  Or maybe they will just say the next update includes "bug fixes" (which is always technically true).

I have worked for technology companies for many years and I understand that they all prefer to carefully control their "message."  DJI is no different in that respect.  Maybe they are are more "closed" about disclosing potentially negative information -- I don't know, I have only been a DJI customer for a few months, before I decided to buy my Mini2, I knew nothing about them.  As new user, I will say that their support has been good (better than I expected, actually), in my case I think DJI "did the right thing" (well, I have not received my replacement drone yet, but I expect that is in process).

When the replacement drone comes I will be careful about NOT launching from higher terrain, flying down to negative altitudes, then needing to climb back up above "0" altitude to land safely.  I will wait for a firmware/software update before trying that, and the first few times I do that I will make sure the drone doesn't go anywhere I can't easily land it and walk to recover it if it doesn't climb up again!

Burstmode Posted at 1-6 08:49
Guess DJI did not inform you about this error in their firmware/software.
Bug fixed in the next update....   ;-)

Hi,

Agree what you say about 'not' being transparant for tech companys.

I fly a lot below zero height indications, never had any issues doing that, but never more than about 10 - 15 meters below zero. (flat country where i live...)

cheers
JJB

How does the exchange, etc., replacement delivery take place?
Do you have to retrieve the old drone and send it in before you get the new one or what?

And now wait and see, you can write a lot from DJI, but before you get the new replacement drone?
there can still be a lot of time and you may have to do a lot of paperwork.

Please keep us up to date until you really have your new replacement drone in your hands.

Thinking a bit more about this, it should be pretty easy to test and confirm the theory that I think has emerged from this thread.  I have worked in QE and know how to write a bug report.  For DJI and for anyone playing along, here is what I would log for this issue:

Problem statement: Drone will not respond to UP stick control inputs, and fails to climb to a higher altitude (higher than approximately "zero altitude"), after it has launched from higher terrain, then flown down to negative altitudes, then returned up to approximately 0 altitude.

Steps to Repro:
1. Update drone firmware and App/Database to current versions
2. Launch drone from a location that is on high terrain (from a high hill, from top of a tall building, etc.)
3. Fly drone down to "negative altitude" over terrain that is much lower than the launch point
4. Fly drone back up to launch point (approximately "0 altitude"), then attempt to climb up higher than "0 altitude"

Result: Once it has climbed up to "zero altitude", drone does not respond to additional UP stick control inputs, and will not climb above (approximately) "0 altitude". If pilot hits RTH, the drone will still not climb above it's present altitude.

Expected behavior: Drone should always respond to UP stick control inputs and climb higher, beyond 0 altitude, whether commanded by pilot manually or by automatic RTH programming.

Additional Details: In my case, my drone went down below -260 feet, which may be more than has been tested.  If you only fly a little below 0 altitude, it may not occur?


To test, I'd start with a brand new Mini 2, update to the latest firmware and app, then go find a tall building (maybe a big parking structure?), and follow the steps above.  If the drone will fly way up over the starting point, then there is some other factor involved, if not...boom.  Only "test" this if the drone can be easily recovered where you are testing it.

Hope this helps others.

Pinarek Posted at 1-6 09:10
How does the exchange, etc., replacement delivery take place?
Do you have to retrieve the old drone and send it in before you get the new one or what?

Do you have to retrieve the old drone and send it in before you get the new one or what?

The email I received said they would provide a replacement under warranty if the drone was not recoverable.  I told them (truthfully) that it can not be recovered safely under current conditions.  They asked for shipping address, etc., which I provided, and said they would follow up.


Please keep us up to date until you really have your new replacement drone in your hands.

I certainly will.  They responded promptly to my initial support request, and also promptly after I synced flight data at their request (both times, within about 6 hours).  I provided my shipping info to them via email about 24 hours ago, have not heard back since, but so far I'd say they have been very responsive.  Hopefully that continues (if the weather was lovely here right now I would be more impatient, but it has been snowing, raining, windy, stormy, for about 2 weeks now and more nasty weather is forecast for at least several more days, so I couldn't be flying the drone even if a replacement magically appeared overnight...).

Can the fly safe updates be rolled back to earlier versions? If so, how?

@Burstmode .... may I politely ask where exactly you live in USA?

Pinarek Posted at 1-6 14:58
@Burstmode .... may I politely ask where exactly you live in USA?

Check PMs.

Burstmode Posted at 1-6 09:34
Do you have to retrieve the old drone and send it in before you get the new one or what?

The email I received said they would provide a replacement under warranty if the drone was not recoverable.  I told them (truthfully) that it can not be recovered safely under current conditions.  They asked for shipping address, etc., which I provided, and said they would follow up.

Additional Details: In my case, my drone went down below -260 feet, which may be more than has been tested.  If you only fly a little below 0 altitude, it may not occur?
There is no limit to how far below launch point you can fly.
Whether the altitude has a + or - sign in front doesn't make any difference.
I've flown >120 metres down and plenty of people have gone lower.

Burstmode Posted at 1-5 21:42
So here's an update: I contacted DJI Support and gave a brief description of what happened. I sycned my flight data upon their request, they said they would do an analysis. Within a few hours I received an email informing me that they would replace the drone as a warranty case.  I provided my shipping info and am now awaiting a follow-up which I presume will include a tracking number for the replacement.  (I will update the original post in this thread so anyone following along doesn't need to scroll through multiple pages of discussion.)

Thank you to all who contributed to the conversation (including those who thought it was simply pilot error - I understand that troubleshooting is an iterative process).  Thanks especially those who helped with analysis of the flight data, including @Sean-bumble-bee, @Labroides, @ Pinarek , @Tuxtard , @No Original Thought, @Bashy , and most of all to JJB*.  You all impressed me with your ability to gather insights from the available data and offer reasonable speculation.

Labroides and JJB are the best for sure, pure geniuses and invaluable here. DJI should pay them... or maybe put out a "contract" on them for their loses. Could go either way  ;-)

Labroides Posted at 1-6 19:18
Additional Details: In my case, my drone went down below -260 feet, which may be more than has been tested.  If you only fly a little below 0 altitude, it may not occur?
There is no limit to how far below launch point you can fly.
Whether the altitude has a + or - sign in front doesn't make any difference.

This may be so, but phatoms are not mini's and the coding is for 64bit, so the code is not the same for the Go app and the Fly app and perhaps the coding for the flysafe is also different in some ways, it looks like there was an issue with the drone going up after an update, DJI is also issuing a warranty replacement, they wouldnt do this if they thought it was pilot error, it also looks like the drone does not have to be recoverable, this also shows that there was definitely a malfunction, be it software or hardware, and seen as others on the forum have also had the same issue directly after an update, surely you can see that this is the case here now? He couldn't go higher than the take-off point after going many feet below the take-off point.

Bashy Posted at 1-6 20:05
This may be so, but phatoms are not mini's and the coding is for 64bit, so the code is not the same for the Go app and the Fly app and perhaps the coding for the flysafe is also different in some ways, it looks like there was an issue with the drone going up after an update, DJI is also issuing a warranty replacement, they wouldnt do this if they thought it was pilot error, it also looks like the drone does not have to be recoverable, this also shows that there was definitely a malfunction, be it software or hardware, and seen as others on the forum have also had the same issue directly after an update, surely you can see that this is the case here now? He couldn't go higher than the take-off point after going many feet below the take-off point.

Good point. Maybe, but does it really matter since he was within a few feet of the HP when the failure occurred? Is it cumulative? I.E. Does it matter where you have been before?

Bashy Posted at 1-6 20:05
This may be so, but phatoms are not mini's and the coding is for 64bit, so the code is not the same for the Go app and the Fly app and perhaps the coding for the flysafe is also different in some ways, it looks like there was an issue with the drone going up after an update, DJI is also issuing a warranty replacement, they wouldnt do this if they thought it was pilot error, it also looks like the drone does not have to be recoverable, this also shows that there was definitely a malfunction, be it software or hardware, and seen as others on the forum have also had the same issue directly after an update, surely you can see that this is the case here now? He couldn't go higher than the take-off point after going many feet below the take-off point.

It's the same for all DJI drones, Phantom or Mavic, 64 bit or not.


DJI is also issuing a warranty replacement, they wouldnt do this if they thought it was pilot error,
Don't make any assumptions about the decisions of individual DJI personnel.
They frequently give warranty replacements when the flight data clearly shows obvious operator error, just as they sometimes reject warranty claims when the data clearly shows a warranty issue.

Labroides Posted at 1-6 21:01
It's the same for all DJI drones, Phantom or Mavic, 64 bit or not.

What evidence do you have to back that up, please?

Just let him have the win, a few of us ruled out prop icing, there was no op error so it was a warranty issue regardless.

Bashy Posted at 1-6 23:08
What evidence do you have to back that up, please?

Just let him have the win, a few of us ruled out prop icing, there was no op error so it was a warranty issue regardless.

What evidence do you have to back that up, please?
You shouldn't need to ask ....but ...

I'm speaking from the experience of analysing the data of hundreds of flights as well as first hand reports from other flyers that have done it.
Why would you think that your random guesses would carry more weight?
Just let him have the win
He's had his win and is getting a new drone.
I was just adding a dash or realism to the assumptions about DJI.

That aint evidence that all the drones have the same software, flight data and drone firmware/flysafe are 2 different things, for a start, the drone software is encrypted and I don't get the impression from your posts that you're a programmer, but lest take the mini vs mini 2 for example, if they were the same, surely 3rd party programmers could have used the mini SDK for the mini 2, not the case though, they had to wait for the mini 2 SDK to come out, so the software for each drone is not the same. Thats my take on it anyway.

The only realism needed here is that it wasn't prop icing and that it was software related, i missed the software side of it as i hadn't heard of the other issues and i hadn't updated mine, but that wouldnt have mattered i as do not fly sub 0 altitude so i wouldn't have caught the issue anyway. As to why DJI grant warranty for some and not others, perhaps they see something that we don't, but i spose we will never know.

Bashy Posted at 1-7 04:48
That aint evidence that all the drones have the same software, flight data and drone firmware/flysafe are 2 different things, for a start, the drone software is encrypted and I don't get the impression from your posts that you're a programmer, but lest take the mini vs mini 2 for example, if they were the same, surely 3rd party programmers could have used the mini SDK for the mini 2, not the case though, they had to wait for the mini 2 SDK to come out, so the software for each drone is not the same. Thats my take on it anyway.

The only realism needed here is that it wasn't prop icing and that it was software related, i missed the software side of it as i hadn't heard of the other issues and i hadn't updated mine, but that wouldnt have mattered i as do not fly sub 0 altitude so i wouldn't have caught the issue anyway. As to why DJI grant warranty for some and not others, perhaps they see something that we don't, but i spose we will never know.

There's not much point trying to explain things to you.
It doesn't matter what I say.
Despite not understanding things yourself, your standard position is:  I don't believe you.

When you need some help analysing your own flight data sometime to solve a mystery or find a lost drone, I'll do it with pleasure.
But I won't bother telling you what the data shows.

Much obliged

Burstmode Posted at 1-6 09:10
Thinking a bit more about this, it should be pretty easy to test and confirm the theory that I think has emerged from this thread.  I have worked in QE and know how to write a bug report.  For DJI and for anyone playing along, here is what I would log for this issue:

Problem statement: Drone will not respond to UP stick control inputs, and fails to climb to a higher altitude (higher than approximately "zero altitude"), after it has launched from higher terrain, then flown down to negative altitudes, then returned up to approximately 0 altitude.

Only one thing I'd add to that test process - only update one thing at a time if at all possible, that way you may be able to narrow down to app, fw and FSDb error.

Of course there may be dependencies that mean an app update requires a firmware update, but I think the Fly Safe Db is pretty much independent or at least optional, from what others have said (I've only had one FSDb update since gettingt my Mini 2).

So happy to know you got a good result from DJI, though.

Will you still be rescuing your dead drone when weather permits - seems sad to leave it out there!

-N.O.T.

Cripes !! You just a record for unnecessary verbiage.  You could have told us all the important facts in about 4 lines.  You would have a much better chance of getting a valuable response.

Bashy Posted at 1-7 04:48
That aint evidence that all the drones have the same software, flight data and drone firmware/flysafe are 2 different things, for a start, the drone software is encrypted and I don't get the impression from your posts that you're a programmer, but lest take the mini vs mini 2 for example, if they were the same, surely 3rd party programmers could have used the mini SDK for the mini 2, not the case though, they had to wait for the mini 2 SDK to come out, so the software for each drone is not the same. Thats my take on it anyway.

The only realism needed here is that it wasn't prop icing and that it was software related, i missed the software side of it as i hadn't heard of the other issues and i hadn't updated mine, but that wouldnt have mattered i as do not fly sub 0 altitude so i wouldn't have caught the issue anyway. As to why DJI grant warranty for some and not others, perhaps they see something that we don't, but i spose we will never know.

You won't believe me when I make comments on basic drone behaviour issues (that you have no idea about), yet in another thread a few hours later you are recommending someone look to me for a detailed analysis of their flight data ???

I can't tell if you are trolling or if you are just stupid?

I only asked you for proof re your claim all drone software are the same, but that does not mean I do not value your opinion when it comes to flight issues and it does not mean we have to fall out, but clearly, you seem to think that whenever I pull you up on something you have to take it to the next level of bat poop crazy.

You always have to resort to name-calling of which comes under bullying and you know full well that I am not a troll, I just do not like it when someone like yourself doesn't like to take a hit, you always have to try it on if your way wasn't the accepted way.

You had no reason to post again other than to have a snipe or say good result (you chose the former) and then move on to the next victim, instead, you sounded like a spoilt child and indirectly accused the op of pilot error "They frequently give warranty replacements when the flight data clearly shows obvious operator error" why on earth did you have to say that? its just because DJI didn't say it was Icing as the fault, that's why. Let's face it though, icing wasn't really on the cards this time around, it was ruled out early on.

You call me stupid, that's fine, I'm thick-skinned, i don't need to call you anything, your posts do that on their own! This tête-à-tête is over, I will let you get your last reply in but I will walk away so make it count ;)
PS, i didn't down vote you, just noticed it now, but someone has balanced it out, good on em. I don't think we need votes on this people...

Bashy Posted at 1-7 21:12
I only asked you for proof re your claim all drone software are the same, but that does not mean I do not value your opinion when it comes to flight issues and it does not mean we have to fall out, but clearly, you seem to think that whenever I pull you up on something you have to take it to the next level of bat poop crazy.

You always have to resort to name-calling of which comes under bullying and you know full well that I am not a troll, I just do not like it when someone like yourself doesn't like to take a hit, you always have to try it on if your way wasn't the accepted way.

I believe he is a temperamental genius. Smart people feel insulted when anyone challenges their opinions. I certainly do and I try to keep that under control. Well I'm 139 IQ, not that smart I guess ;-) We take the bad with the good, it's just life.

He is a small fish that helps other fish. humble and heroic... in a way. I give him a break..often, because he deserves it.

GaryDoug Posted at 1-7 21:23
I believe he is a temperamental genius. Smart people feel insulted when anyone challenges their opinions. I certainly do and I try to keep that under control. Well I'm 139 IQ, not that smart I guess ;-) We take the bad with the good, it's just life.

He is a small fish that helps other fish. humble and heroic... in a way. I give him a break..often, because he deserves it.

Well, put, we too have had our differences of opinion, i don't hold a grudge, too long lol I just call it as i see it, perhaps i should keep my gob shut, i said perhaps....

Bashy Posted at 1-7 21:12
I only asked you for proof re your claim all drone software are the same, but that does not mean I do not value your opinion when it comes to flight issues and it does not mean we have to fall out, but clearly, you seem to think that whenever I pull you up on something you have to take it to the next level of bat poop crazy.

You always have to resort to name-calling of which comes under bullying and you know full well that I am not a troll, I just do not like it when someone like yourself doesn't like to take a hit, you always have to try it on if your way wasn't the accepted way.

I just do not like it when someone like yourself doesn't like to take a hit.
I don't like "taking a hit" from someone who doesn't know much about the subject (as evidenced by your incorrect guess), but feels he knows enough to say I don't know what I'm talking about.
Particularly whern I gave you a very good explanation of how I know it's true.
I'm a working scientist and don't suggest things that are just guesses.
If I'm wasn't certain about how all DJI drones handle negative altitude, I wouldn't have said it.
And it's a very basic thing that's easily observed in the hundreds of sets of flight data, that I've seen in the 6 years that I've been reading flight data.
To have some oik say .. I don't believe you after I've explained how I know, is most annoying.

you sounded like a spoilt child and indirectly accused the op of pilot error "They frequently give warranty replacements when the flight data clearly shows obvious operator error" why on earth did you have to say that?
I didn't accuse the OP of anything.
As I already explained, you can't assume that DJI made a correct determination.
They frequently make mistakes, in favour of fliers and against them.
I've seen several in the last month.
If they ever make an indirect decision for you, you might be happy to have me provide a clear explanation to show DJI why they could reconsider.
Several flyers have received replacements after an initial refusal, after I went over the data.

its just because DJI didn't say it was Icing as the fault, that's why. Let's face it though, icing wasn't really on the cards this time around, it was ruled out early on.
I haven't mentioned icing since early in this thread.
It seemed a likely hypothesis at the time, but I quickly moved on.

Ok, i cant shut up, i tried. I have never said you're rubbish at what you do, don't make it into something its not, you always try to turn it around on to the person that's stood up, something we see all too often with yourself.

Whilst you haven't mentioned the icing since post #35 you also didn't give an explanation as to the issue either, you just stopped commenting on the issue at hand, you could say you when quiet, other than putting folks straight on the other flight characteristics.  Like i said, you pretty much went quiet up til the point when he got a result with support, then you tried to, not sure of the word, but it seemed like you were trying to say that support don't know what they are saying and are probably be wrong, that can only mean one thing, that you think icing is still the factor, whilst you didn't actually say, its what it looks like, spitting ya dummy out.

Get over yourself, stop trying to twist it on to me when i ain't even done anything, its quite laughable. Youre wrong, i was wrong, it was a software issue.

And yep, you still haven't provided proof, is that why you're trying to twist to me, trying to take the spotlight off of yaself? I give up with you, you're like a big kid, put ya dummy back in and get over it already. Oh, and i would ask JJB* not you, not when you act like a spoilt child!

Bashy Posted at 1-8 04:21
Ok, i cant shut up, i tried. I have never said you're rubbish at what you do, don't make it into something its not, you always try to turn it around on to the person that's stood up, something we see all too often with yourself.

Whilst you haven't mentioned the icing since post #35 you also didn't give an explanation as to the issue either, you just stopped commenting on the issue at hand, you could say you when quiet, other than putting folks straight on the other flight characteristics.  Like i said, you pretty much went quiet up til the point when he got a result with support, then you tried to, not sure of the word, but it seemed like you were trying to say that support don't know what they are saying and are probably be wrong, that can only mean one thing, that you think icing is still the factor, whilst you didn't actually say, its what it looks like, spitting ya dummy out.

I always try to use plain, clear English so that the message will get through.
But it fails with you.
You haven't understood a word that I said.
I won't bother repeating myself (again) as it gets tedious.

And yep, you still haven't provided proof,
I shouldn't have to provide proof, particularly to you.
I've been on this forum for many years, analysing data and helping people solve their problems.
I've shown that I do have a very good understanding of how these things work.
And you come along (with minimal knowledge on the topic) disbelieve me, demand proof and dismiss a solid explanation.

You wouldn't recognise proof if it hit you in the face.

Labroides Posted at 1-8 06:43
I always try to use plain, clear English so that the message will get through.
But it fails with you.
You haven't understood a word that I said.

Guys, please stop.

OP here. I have appreciated and welcomed your input, even if some of it may not have been 100% accurate at the time. I shared my story, you both were helpful, in your own ways. There is useful information here for others (for future use) in this thread. I think everyone understands, we all speculate, float ideas, offer conjecture (sometimes make wild guesses) based on our experience and analysis, how we read the avalable info, and our analytical skills. That's how a group works to solve a problem. Thats all good, no reason to bash each other.

As the guy who lost his drone, I'm satisfied with the response from DJI. I thank you all for your efforts to help figure out what happened and to educate me and others. I think that's a good place to end this. Lets please let it go, OK? Thank you.

Whats that saying, oh yeah,  put up or shut up, gimmie the proof, slap it in my face and lets see then shall we?, when it comes down to it you're all talk, i don't care how long you've been on the forum or how many flights you've analysed, youre not above any other member on here, we are all here for one reason, but you said something you've not backed up and I've asked a few times now, I mean come on, you've asked this very same question yourself on this very forum a few times, not nice when its returned is it? OK, Fine, its obvious you cant show me any, so just say that and let's just carry on. I wont think any less of you, and it won't impede on your future works with members flights, so lets just say you cant provide any proof and leave it at that, yeah?

Bashy Posted at 1-8 08:10
Whats that saying, oh yeah,  put up or shut up, gimmie the proof, slap it in my face and lets see then shall we?, when it comes down to it you're all talk, i don't care how long you've been on the forum or how many flights you've analysed, youre not above any other member on here, we are all here for one reason, but you said something you've not backed up and I've asked a few times now, I mean come on, you've asked this very same question yourself on this very forum a few times, not nice when its returned is it? OK, Fine, its obvious you cant show me any, so just say that and let's just carry on. I wont think any less of you, and it won't impede on your future works with members flights, so lets just say you cant provide any proof and leave it at that, yeah?

Whats that saying
It's saying that I won't engage in your nonsense because you don't understand plain English and a lot about how drones work.

but you said something you've not backed up and I've asked a few times now, I mean come on, you've asked this very same question yourself on this very forum a few times, not nice when its returned is it? OK, Fine, its obvious you cant show me any, so just say that and let's just carry on.
so lets just say you cant provide any proof and leave it at that, yeah?
I told you that I've observed it myself and seen seen that confirmed in the flight data of a large number of flights.
That's proof, but you are too thick-headed to understand that.

What "proof" do you want?
Do you want me to lay out the flight data (that you can't read) from all those flights along with detailed analysis?
The last time you demanded proof for something basic, I provided  scientific papers that proved what I said, but you still didn't believe  me.
If you can point out a flaw in what I said, then explain that, then go and do some testing and prove it yourself one way or the other.

But you can't because you don't have the knowledge to ... and because what I suggested is correct.

You cant even remember what i am asking about, you spouted poop after poop in your replies to me and keep going on about flight data and that's not what I've been asking about, clue, its on this very page,
I have never asked you for proof before this thread,, if i have then my apologies, i have forgotten, i certainly do not remember any scientific papers, but please, do enlighten me and back that up with proof, please? you, on the other hand, have asked other members for it though.

Bashy Posted at 1-8 18:32
You cant even remember what i am asking about, you spouted poop after poop in your replies to me and keep going on about flight data and that's not what I've been asking about, clue, its on this very page,
I have never asked you for proof before this thread,, if i have then my apologies, i have forgotten, i certainly do not remember any scientific papers, but please, do enlighten me and back that up with proof, please? you, on the other hand, have asked other members for it though.

All the effort I've ever made in trying to explain anything to you (and explain it again and again) has been a complete waste of my time.
Nothing ever gets through.

And no ... I'm not giving any more "proof".

I thought as much when I initially asked the question,  you don't have any, that's why you've been skirting my asking and trying to twist it back to me and whats this "any more" you're still trying to twist it as though you've actually already given me something, you haven't given me any proof to my question whatsoever, not 1 iota.

We all know what you're like but this has actually opened a new side to you i didn't expect. Its fine you ask others for proof yet when you're being asked, it's a different matter. Good show old bean, that'll do from me, carry on as you may, I'm done with your little charade,