Vergiliusz Posted at 3-29 04:57
I apologize to everyone for using a translator as you can probably see. It's easier for me when I write fast. My English is still lame though.
There was a row about the right and there were a few verbal skirmishes, although the link was about an article about Aerospace. We have completely departed from this topic, I am not ashamed that there are many people here from all over the world who condemn the war.
And now to the merits of the matter.

Dear Vergiliusz, sorry to keep this thread moving the wrong way but looks someone can't just go back to aeroscope. You say Russians "do not even want to know that someone may have a different opinion", but seems we can talk and hear each other despite I personally support president Putin, like a vast majority of our people. Moreover, I agree to many things you say regarding propaganda from both sides. Guess after reading posts like mr.Pinarek performes you can see clearly who can't stand any different opinion, and that's definitely not Russian.

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-29 21:56
Dear Vergiliusz, sorry to keep this thread moving the wrong way but looks someone can't just go back to aeroscope. You say Russians "do not even want to know that someone may have a different opinion", but seems we can talk and hear each other despite I personally support president Putin, like a vast majority of our people. Moreover, I agree to many things you say regarding propaganda from both sides. Guess after reading posts like mr.Pinarek performes you can see clearly who can't stand any different opinion, and that's definitely not Russian.

This is because the crimes of Russian soldiers are shown to us and people's emotions are strongly strained. In turn, as far as I know, you are told that nothing of the sort takes place. That it is a peace mission to save the persecuted people of Donbas and Lugansk. They show you materials showing how Ukraine persecutes the people of these regions and, in the Kremlin's opinion, the Azov regiment is a terrorist unit.
Apparently that will never change because each side has its reasons. I hate Putin because although most people (not those overwhelmed with hostility) respect and speak well about Russians, the Russian authorities have always been treacherous, murderous and cruel. We live as if in two different worlds. We see how cruel Putin is, you see how the world turns people against Putin. In fact, what good he has done for the Russians now, something else besides those speeches from which nothing comes. We not with our own eyes, but we see how Ukrainian, even Russian-speaking, who were supposed to be liberated, are being murdered, and Russian soldiers are also murdered by Putin. You see the other side of the coin and you can see how successful the Russian army is. By the way, do you really believe in Russia that the West wants to destroy you, dominate you? Just look at it, Russia is a supplier of strategic materials. Gas, Oil, Coal, Gold. Russia is an absorbent market and many companies have opened successfully. The West would destroy such a potential? What would it do for who?

Vergiliusz Posted at 3-29 22:11
This is because the crimes of Russian soldiers are shown to us and people's emotions are strongly strained. In turn, as far as I know, you are told that nothing of the sort takes place. That it is a peace mission to save the persecuted people of Donbas and Lugansk. They show you materials showing how Ukraine persecutes the people of these regions and, in the Kremlin's opinion, the Azov regiment is a terrorist unit.
Apparently that will never change because each side has its reasons. I hate Putin because although most people (not those overwhelmed with hostility) respect and speak well about Russians, the Russian authorities have always been treacherous, murderous and cruel. We live as if in two different worlds. We see how cruel Putin is, you see how the world turns people against Putin. In fact, what good he has done for the Russians now, something else besides those speeches from which nothing comes. We not with our own eyes, but we see how Ukrainian, even Russian-speaking, who were supposed to be liberated, are being murdered, and Russian soldiers are also murdered by Putin. You see the other side of the coin and you can see how successful the Russian army is. By the way, do you really believe in Russia that the West wants to destroy you, dominate you? Just look at it, Russia is a supplier of strategic materials. Gas, Oil, Coal, Gold. Russia is an absorbent market and many companies have opened successfully. The West would destroy such a potential? What would it do for who?

I see your point, its definitely resonable, but if so, what's the need to move NATO towards Russian borders? Think: what would US gov do if we put Russiian missiles across US-Mexican border? Putin warned for many years not to do that, we want to live in peace, stop arming Ukraine, but been ignored.

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-29 22:35
I see you point, its definitely resonable, but if so, what's the need to move NATO towards Russian borders? Think: what would US gov do if we put Russiian missiles across US-Mexican border? Putin warned for many years not to do that, we want to live in peace, stop arming Ukraine, but been ignored.

This is the difference between the two nations. Due to the history of Russia's behavior, which we perceive, Russia, despite the fact that it is a huge market, is also perceived as a threat. Not so much Russia itself as the rulers of this country. Ukraine's situation is complicated, as you probably know, Ukraine broke away from the USSR, as did the countries of the Warsaw Pact, i.e. Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, former Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Russia, as we understand it, is unable to accept the fact that so many countries have rebelled and became independent. As far as I know in Russia it is still repeated that these countries have become who they are thanks to Russia. We are still afraid of Russia's rule, not of the Russians themselves. It is complicated to explain reasonably and you have to understand the thinking of both sides of the conflict, otherwise it cannot be called a conflict. The perception of the Russian government is influenced by the events that have been passed on to us so far, the murdering of oppositionists by Putin, the occupation of neighboring countries and placing his people there. After all, Ukraine has not been armed by NATO so far and has rebuilt its military capabilities on its own. I don't know how Ukraine would pose a threat to Russia, a country that was rebuilding itself.
It seems to me that we should first understand why the rulers, not ordinary people, want Russia to be a superpower and not an equal, well-developing country. Because the situation you write about already happened when Russia sent rockets to Cuba. Nothing good came out of it and contacts were dead for many years.

There's so much background information regarding this conflict, we would need days or even months for getting a halfway clear view of the long-term history leading to the present situation.
I already read a bit. And the more I read, the more "crazy actions" of Putin suddenly made - sorry - sense. Don't get me wrong: Understanding the mechanisms does not mean supporting them.
I recommend everyone making himself a bit at home with the history, starting way back in the 70s.
I also recommend making yourself at home with the vital driving factor "money", gas pipelines (especially the one through Ukraine), Nord Stream 2 and monetary US interests.
You'll find out it's like a Gordian knot, almost impossible to disentangle.
If you really take your time following the endless interrelations and manage to admit you didn't know way enough for taking an unbiased position, you might be finding yourself in a serious moral conflict, with no idea about "good" or "bad" anymore.
And if you came that far, you'll deeply understand why taking a neutral position is the only way of not contributing to injustice.

Pinarek Posted at 3-29 13:31
As far as the original start thread is concerned, I've just read that Mediamarkt and Saturn are removing all DJI drones from their range.

The reason given is that DJI supplies the Russian army with such drones and the

I'll just take two of your statements for an answer.

First, why I didn't reply to your personal messages: I once tried to help a young woman, severely addicted to drugs. I had long talks with her, arranged her getting harmless replacement drugs, I tried just everything possible for getting her away from the needle. But I failed. Because she didn't want help.
So why should I answer personal messages from a person who just wants to hate?

Second, German chainstores kicking out DJI products. Pure do-gooder madness.

I read the article. TWITTER posts (highly trustworthy ...) criticized DJI for supplying drones to Russia, also stating that drones would be used for military purposes.
What's wrong with that?
We saw Ukrainian military posing with DJI drones, even asking other countries to send them DJI drones for military purposes. Heroic reports about the military abusing DJI drones for dropping grenades or molotow cocktails, for killing and burning people.
So Ukraine abusing civil drones for military purposes is correct, but Russia doing the same isn't?
If DJI wouldn't supply civil drones to Russia anymore, they would take side in a war. So of course they don't.
And that's the reason for German chainstores kicking out DJI products? Because DJI does NOT take sides?
And you, Pinarek, welcome that action? Just think - or try to!
There will be exactly one single loser in that game: YOU and other German DJI enthusiasts.
Because prices will go up the more the availability of these products goes down. Black and grey distribution channels will deliver DJI products to Germany for a lot money more than before.
And it's YOU paying that price for that action you welcome.
And that's all this crude marketing action achieves, you paying the bill for chainstores playing the tune of propaganda.
Congratulations.

Let me add one more thing: Vergiliusz and fansa are talking to each other. They don't share the same point of view, but they are exchanging their perspectives for a better understanding in the long run. If this succeeds or not - we just don't know. But we know for sure that not talking to each other and just spreading hate will never result in a better understanding.
Think about it.

Landey Posted at 3-30 04:31
I'll just take two of your statements for an answer.

First, why I didn't reply to your personal messages: I once tried to help a young woman, severely addicted to drugs. I had long talks with her, arranged her getting harmless replacement drugs, I tried just everything possible for getting her away from the needle. But I failed. Because she didn't want help.

This is why I want to understand the point of view of ordinary Russians. Putin's goals are clear though, and he is a mystery. I do not want to stigmatize ordinary Russians, it arouses emotions in me, but if I wanted to force someone's way of thinking, how would I be different from Putin who wants to break Ukraine, and if I fail to break it.
I have no reason to hate a Russian just because he has a different opinion, unless he flaunts the letter Z, which is now equivalent to a spastic, SS or other fascist symbol.
Throwing out DJI devices is like shooting a fly from a cannon, it's all about the application and the aerospace detection system. The fact that both sides would be using drones was obvious and should come as no surprise. Here it can be assumed that propaganda has joined in to support Ukraine with drones. Honestly? I support it and have advertised fundraising and information about fundraisers myself.
We can argue who is right in the forum about this war, not any mission or conflict, but war. But I met a lot of people from the east on the DJI group on FB: Pakistan, Syria, Yemen who are against our outrage. They blame everything on NATO and the US. So really, the point of view depends on which side of the barrier we are on. I try not to judge the other side, but when someone writes to me that my country will be next because Russia is powerful and will regain what it takes to my nerves.

Ok, now I have it here in a post from the Russian
@fansa3ca2932 read: So he fully supports the actions of the dictator Putin.
So clearly for me he is a proponent of Putin's war crimes.

And isn't that reason for you @Landey and @Vergiliusz to join in
to discuss something sharper with such a person than to flatter him?!

Ok, enough for me to discuss with such people, these people like Putin and Lukashenko,
enemies of their own people (at least for the intelligent and clever people who do not let themselves
be ideologically influenced by the dictators) will get their right to freedom, sooner or later .

And you stupid Russian @fansa3ca2932 are already ideologically burned by all the propaganda and
believe in the whole thing of Putin, with the re-establishment of a great Russian empire or what?

Well then, go ahead... time will tell.

And now all of you here, whether idiots or intelligentsia (put on the jacket that fits you) you can
all leave me out with a political discussion. It's useless, stupid stays stupid
at some people.

And you @Landy... That's right, not a single drone should be sold here in Germany, I bought my Mini2
cheaply back then and will of course NEVER buy a DJI product again, there are enough other similar products,
some of which are even technically better equipped .

Pinarek Posted at 3-30 06:47
Ok, now I have it here in a post from the Russian
@fansa3ca2932 read: So he fully supports the actions of the dictator Putin.
So clearly for me he is a proponent of Putin's war crimes.

I just want to understand what is behind such hatred towards "weaker" nations which are characterized by the power of Russia. The fact that Putin is a murderer was known when he got rid of the torrent, after he started purging Ukraine after the euro.
I hate Putin, I try to understand ordinary Russians after all. What prompts such blind devotion, life in Russia is not easy after all. Russia has started to change and now it will go back a good 40 years. It will be isolated again, it will be treated again as a country ruled by tyranny and people blindly believe in authorities. This, of course, is our point of view. Apparently, in Russia a lot of people think that Russia is defending itself against the corruption of the West and there is an ideological clash of two worlds. And you know that I myself started to regret that I bought DJs and not, for example, Fimi or autel? Except it's all still Chinese so what would change that?

The fact that I am trying to understand the behavior of ordinary people is by no means automatic with supporting Russia's actions. Those motherfuckers ... I would hang on a dry branch for bombarding hospitals, raping, shooting civilians, killing children. Recently, a Russian shot an 11-year-old child in the face for no reason. There is no point in understanding or explaining this. What was he guided by? Propaganda? They prefer Putin? Or maybe he just considered himself unpunished and WAR is a pretext to set his nature free. This can be considered propaganda, why not? It is hostile to Russia, but it is a fact, although I did not see it with my own eyes, it does not mean that the event did not take place. The Russians will say that Ukraine did the same in Donbas and Luhansk. There will be no end to accusations by politicians and the media, and mutual hatred will be fueled. If, however, despite the difference in how the world is perceived, we do not start talking, the war will never end and mutual hatred. Despite the atrocities about the ceasefire, Ukraine is talking to Russia, despite the fact that no one knows what Putin's plans are and whether he wants a truce.

Vergiliusz Posted at 3-29 22:58
This is the difference between the two nations. Due to the history of Russia's behavior, which we perceive, Russia, despite the fact that it is a huge market, is also perceived as a threat. Not so much Russia itself as the rulers of this country. Ukraine's situation is complicated, as you probably know, Ukraine broke away from the USSR, as did the countries of the Warsaw Pact, i.e. Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, former Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Russia, as we understand it, is unable to accept the fact that so many countries have rebelled and became independent. As far as I know in Russia it is still repeated that these countries have become who they are thanks to Russia. We are still afraid of Russia's rule, not of the Russians themselves. It is complicated to explain reasonably and you have to understand the thinking of both sides of the conflict, otherwise it cannot be called a conflict. The perception of the Russian government is influenced by the events that have been passed on to us so far, the murdering of oppositionists by Putin, the occupation of neighboring countries and placing his people there. After all, Ukraine has not been armed by NATO so far and has rebuilt its military capabilities on its own. I don't know how Ukraine would pose a threat to Russia, a country that was rebuilding itself.
It seems to me that we should first understand why the rulers, not ordinary people, want Russia to be a superpower and not an equal, well-developing country. Because the situation you write about already happened when Russia sent rockets to Cuba. Nothing good came out of it and contacts were dead for many years.

You write: "They blame NATO and the USA."
Yes, but buying iPhones and technology from the USA is no problem.
Notice what?

Vergiliusz Posted at 3-30 07:22
The fact that I am trying to understand the behavior of ordinary people is by no means automatic with supporting Russia's actions. Those motherfuckers ... I would hang on a dry branch for bombarding hospitals, raping, shooting civilians, killing children. Recently, a Russian shot an 11-year-old child in the face for no reason. There is no point in understanding or explaining this. What was he guided by? Propaganda? They prefer Putin? Or maybe he just considered himself unpunished and WAR is a pretext to set his nature free. This can be considered propaganda, why not? It is hostile to Russia, but it is a fact, although I did not see it with my own eyes, it does not mean that the event did not take place. The Russians will say that Ukraine did the same in Donbas and Luhansk. There will be no end to accusations by politicians and the media, and mutual hatred will be fueled. If, however, despite the difference in how the world is perceived, we do not start talking, the war will never end and mutual hatred. Despite the atrocities about the ceasefire, Ukraine is talking to Russia, despite the fact that no one knows what Putin's plans are and whether he wants a truce.

Agree: thats no point to understand or explain or even imagine this, then what would they do that for? May be to make people in Ukraine and a whole world hate them from now and forever? May be such disgusting things could help to win the battle? There is no reason to assume that will help to win, conversely, it wiil lead Russia to crash, it's nonsense. ..."bombarding hospitals, raping, shooting civilians, killing children. Recently, a Russian shot an 11-year-old child in the face for no reason" - may I see your evidence or any reliable sorce where it comes to you from?

How dare you Russian @fansa3ca2932 doubt this, shoot the child in the face etc.
EVERYONE knows that these Russians are bastards!!!

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-30 09:41
Agree: thats no point to understand or explain or even imagine this, then what would they do that for? May be to make people in Ukraine and a whole world hate them from now and forever? May be such disgusting things could help to win the battle? There is no reason to assume that will help to win, conversely, it wiil lead Russia to crash, it's nonsense. ..."bombarding hospitals, raping, shooting civilians, killing children. Recently, a Russian shot an 11-year-old child in the face for no reason" - may I see your evidence or any reliable sorce where it comes to you from?

https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadom ... a-kobieta-nie-zyje/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world ... -watson-pkg-vpx.cnn
https://www.businessinsider.com/ ... -leg-off-2022-3?amp

https://inews.co.uk/news/ukraine ... kyiv-family-1503726
https://www.timesofisrael.com/li ... -with-his-hands-up/

It must be admitted, however, that not everyone is wrong, the war awakens the worst hidden reflexes in people. There are also Russians who, for rapes and other crimes, they would shoot their own people, but they are in the minority. I understand that if in a group of 10 armed people there is one normal who disgusts with it, he can do nothing. He will not risk his life for the enemy because no one will believe him anyway, because most of them are aggressive because even the commander may not believe him. It's complicated and cruel.

Basically, Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, but still, we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works. To be honest and its only my opinion, i think the reason was just the excuse Putin has needed all along, he wants the band back together again, but had he taken Ukraine, he would then be on NATO's doorstep so, go figure, this is why the consensus is that he wouldnt have stopped at Ukraine, hence why NATO countries are aiding in this war and this is why the aid will go far beyond what it is now if Putin decides to go the Nuclear, bio or chemical route, its not in his best interest. Thats why we were quick on the ball re "bio labs" in Ukraine, Putin was trying that old chestnut, the "false flag", so far its put him off, but there is no telling.

Mr Russian person, you asked why would he do this to the people of Ukraine, 1 reason only, to create fear through terror in the hopes that the people would lay down and crawl to Putin, suffice to say, it failed, his 3 day exercise is now well over a month and your economy is basically on its knees, many western companies have pulled out of your country,  many thousands of Russian soldiers killed, the same for the men, women and children of Ukraine and for what, Putins ego. He is a sick man, mentally and physically!

Vergiliusz Posted at 3-30 22:03
https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2022-03-30/wojna-w-ukrainie-rosjanie-kilka-dni-gwalcili-mieszkanke-mariupola-kobieta-nie-zyje/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/25/ukraine-childrens-hospital-lead-watson-pkg-vpx.cnn
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-woman-russian-soldier-shot-husband-leg-off-2022-3?amp

Thanks for sharing, but I didn't see any Russian soldier shooting child, guess you either. Yes, we see pictures, videos and reporters saying "it's Russians, look what's Russians do, etc", but I would't rush to consider it's true: any professional reporter can do dozens of such videos, a kind of information terrorism. Anyway (although we didn't see whats really happened, let's suppose this one is not fake) stick to CNN reporter "realizing their MISTAKE they gave her daughter first aid"....
Sorry, I didn"t comment all the sources you link, only the most shocking one, but all of them are created by Western media driving to demonize Russia.

Bashy Posted at 3-30 22:48
Basically, Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, but still, we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works. To be honest and its only my opinion, i think the reason was just the excuse Putin has needed all along, he wants the band back together again, but had he taken Ukraine, he would then be on NATO's doorstep so, go figure, this is why the consensus is that he wouldnt have stopped at Ukraine, hence why NATO countries are aiding in this war and this is why the aid will go far beyond what it is now if Putin decides to go the Nuclear, bio or chemical route, its not in his best interest. Thats why we were quick on the ball re "bio labs" in Ukraine, Putin was trying that old chestnut, the "false flag", so far its put him off, but there is no telling.

Mr Russian person, you asked why would he do this to the people of Ukraine, 1 reason only, to create fear through terror in the hopes that the people would lay down and crawl to Putin, suffice to say, it failed, his 3 day exercise is now well over a month and your economy is basically on its knees, many western companies have pulled out of your country,  many thousands of Russian soldiers killed, the same for the men, women and children of Ukraine and for what, Putins ego. He is a sick man, mentally and physically!

I'll just pick some of your statements for you to reconsider. Quotes are in brown italics.

Basically, Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, ...
Remember the Cuba crisis in 1962? Doesn't that ring the bell of similarity?

... but still, we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works.
Already forgot about Iraque?

To be honest and its only my opinion, i think the reason was just the excuse Putin has needed all along, he wants the band back together again, ...
And why does Putin demand Ukraine just remaining neutral?
Why did he show up with just 120,000 troops if he planned to take the country?

... but had he taken Ukraine, he would then be on NATO's doorstep so, ...
With the NATO being on HIS doorstep if Ukraine breaks it's signed promise not to become a NATO country.

... if Putin decides to go the Nuclear, bio or chemical route, ...
Just google "hunter biden metabiota" if you wish to talk about the bio route.

... you asked why would he do this to the people of Ukraine, 1 reason only, to create fear through terror in the hopes that the people would lay down and crawl to Putin, ...
Again, have a look at the negotiations' agenda. How can you interprete "Ukraine remaining neutral" as "crawling to Putin"?

... suffice to say, it failed, his 3 day exercise is now well over a month ...
You doubt Russia having the military potential for bombing Ukraine into oblivion? If Putin had wanted that, he would have done. He didn't. Maybe saving lives on both sides.

... and your economy is basically on its knees, ...
Like our economy as the sanctions turn out to be a (surprise!) boomerang, with us being dependent on Russian gas and international trade.

... many western companies have pulled out of your country, ...
... losing a lot of money, many of them on the verge of bankruptcy.

... many thousands of Russian soldiers killed,
No military losses on the other side? Just "women and children"?

He is a sick man, mentally and physically!
How do you come to that conclusion? Please enlighten us with details. If possible, of course.

Bashy: "...we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works" - please say it to people in Yugoslavia, Iraq and many other countries , you'll be surprised.

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-31 00:36
Thanks for sharing, but I didn't see any Russian soldier shooting child, guess you either. Yes, we see pictures, videos and reporters saying "it's Russians, look what's Russians do, etc", but I would't rush to consider it's true: any professional reporter can do dozens of such videos, a kind of information terrorism. Anyway (although we didn't see whats really happened, let's suppose this one is not fake) stick to CNN reporter "realizing their MISTAKE they gave her daughter first aid"....
Sorry, I didn"t comment all the sources you link, only the most shocking one, but all of them are created by Western media driving to demonize Russia.

Okay, but you don't expect the Russian media to show the true picture of the war if the assumption is that it is a peace mission.
It's like I said that I was going to help someone put bars on the windows to avoid theft, but he threw a video of me robbing myself.
But don't you think it takes too long and this triggering is not going as putin assumed? Logically, if Ukraine is so fascist or Nazi, why would it choose Russia which had a myth of power and not another weaker country? Who is sensible, if he is weaker, consciously throws himself on the stronger? How about the fact that the Russian navy fired at the merchant ships of Panama, Romania and another country?
More and more Russians are waking up and beginning to understand that this peace mission is nothing more than war and they are rebelling, even FSB officers are rebelling.
The Russians are really hospitable, cordial people from what I saw based on the recordings of a young Polish couple who traveled all over Russia. They were even in Noril and nowhere met with hostility due to the fact that they are Poles. Everyone tried to please, help without demanding anything in return. That's why it's hard for me to believe that Russians believe Putin's lies.

All of you: Have a look at the following compilation of propaganda means, based on the work "Falsehood in war-time" (1928) by Arthur Ponsonby, compiled by Anne Morelli.

1. We do not want war.
2. The opposite party alone is guilty of war.
3. The enemy is inherently evil and resembles the devil.
4. We defend a noble cause, not our own interests.
5. The enemy commits atrocities on purpose; our mishaps are involuntary.
6. The enemy uses forbidden weapons.
7. We suffer small losses, those of the enemy are enormous.
8. Recognized artists and intellectuals back our cause.
9. Our cause is sacred.
10. All who doubt our propaganda are traitors.

Now compare the above with the latest statements of Bashy (# 136), the various statements of Pinarek, your own posts, and the footage public media provides you.

Landey Posted at 3-31 00:42
I'll just pick some of your statements for you to reconsider. Quotes are in brown italics.

Basically, Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, ...

To be honest and its only my opinion, i think the reason was just the excuse Putin has needed all along, he wants the band back together again, ...
And why does Putin demand Ukraine just remaining neutral?
Why did he show up with just 120,000 troops if he planned to take the country?

   This is what surprises me? This means that the power of Russia is just a myth? Or maybe the generals thought that Ukraine was so weak that it was enough. It may also be, as reported in the media, the Russian army may be numerous but demoralized because the generals are stealing money. The army is underfunded, not trained. Equipment stolen

... but had he taken Ukraine, he would then be on NATO's doorstep so, ...
With the NATO being on HIS doorstep if Ukraine breaks it's signed promise not to become a NATO country.

  it should be noted, however, that negotiation is one thing and what is actually done is another.
Russia is negotiating and supposedly wants Ukraine to be neutral, but also to demilitarize it, and even Switzerland has an army or Sweden.
Second thing, it looks like chaos or a smokescreen according to British and Pentagon reports. Russia is negotiating, and is still attacking and not following what has been agreed. It is as if politicians were doing one thing and the military was doing the other, or maybe this is the intended goal?But Russia also gave Ukraine a security guarantee as it gave up its nuclear weapons. Has Russia kept its word?

So let's go back to the starting point.
If, by acknowledging what you wrote at the beginning, the propaganda of the West does its job. Russia's propaganda is doing its job.
But will taking the position of indifference lead to something good? It's easy for us to discuss it while sitting in front of the computer, but what if we face a conflict one day?

It is not about open hostility, I must admit that I am a bit pis*ed off by the sheep rush of people who thoughtlessly attack the buildings of the Russian embassy or cars on Russian plates. What have these people done to?
Again, I understand aggression against ordinary Russians who flaunt the letter Z or other military vehicle markings.

Landey Posted at 3-31 00:56
All of you: Have a look at the following compilation of propaganda means, based on the work "Falsehood in war-time" (1928) by Arthur Ponsonby, compiled by Anne Morelli.

1. We do not want war.

OK, but this is how you could relate to the atrocities of World War II. If one side says it doesn't want war and the other side says it doesn't, and there is war, who wants it? Defender or attacker? If you attack, do not you want war either?

Dear Vergiliusz! Appreciate your kind words, one of my colleagues is in business with Polish supplier and we all are good friends.
I don't have any info about Russian navy fired at the merchant ships (logicaly: what they wold do that for?), but have an explanatoin why Ukraine choose Russia. It's not a secret that US supported military takeover in this country and continues this activity arming and funding - listen to what mr Biden says. In simple words (just my thoughts), Ukraine has lost sovereignty and mr Zelensky is following Biden's instructions. The main purpose is to weeken both Russia and Europe. Look what's going on: economic war is in full swing, Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, European and Russian economy pulls down. Who is the main beneficiary?

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-31 01:32
Dear Vergiliusz! Appreciate your kind words, one of my colleagues is in business with Polish supplier and we all are good friends.
I don't have any info about Russian navy fired at the merchant ships (logicaly: what they wold do that for?), but have an explanatoin why Ukraine choose Russia. It's not a secret that US supported military takeover in this country and continues this activity arming and funding - listen to what mr Biden says. In simple words, Ukraine has lost sovereignty and mr Zelensky is following Biden's instructions. The main purpose is to weeken both Russia and Europe. Look what's going on: economic war is in full swing, Russians Urrainians killing each other, European and Russian economy pulls down. Who is the main beneficiary?

Because, as @Landey wrote, people get carried away by the propaganda. I will not change my mind about the war and who is the torturer I blame Putin for it.
But whether the fact that people are being minimized by propaganda on both sides should arouse hatred towards other people on the street walking alongside who speak Russian or Belarusian. Should a man speaking another language in Russia be afraid for his safety because of this? Many of our athletes left Russia and the Russians helped them in this and did not create problems understanding the decision. I have a Belarusian friend, I know the fate of Belarusians in their own country, and despite the fact that Russia has its bases, they are attacked there as if they took up arms themselves.
Normal people don't want war, they want peace, they want to earn money, they want to travel.
I was wondering who is really responsible for Ukraine's drama, we will have a divided opinion on it. It is difficult, each of us has the right to have an opinion on this matter.
I was wondering who was making money in the war, someone was making money at the expense of others. Personally, however, I think that Putin is to blame because he is not saint, but someone else is also to blame for it. Whether it is the fault of the government or the corporations that really rule the world, it will be a mystery. We will be preoccupied with hating each other on the basis of what someone has provoked for some purpose.

@ Landy you as a German citizen should be ashamed of such nonsense that you write and spread here.

It seems to me that you are still very young and uneducated, maybe you belong to the stupid generation?
(Günther Jauch once explained exactly which generation it is on RTL... have to do some research!).

and I just wanted to say to you Russian @fansa3ca2932 that I still have good contacts with Russians in
Moscow and St. Petersburg. These are friends of mine who think exactly like me.

I still deleted my account at Yandex.com today.

So now nice further discussion.

Pinarek Posted at 3-31 06:29
@ Landy you as a German citizen should be ashamed of such nonsense that you write and spread here.

It seems to me that you are still very young and uneducated, maybe you belong to the stupid generation?

Well, Russians are the same people as other nations. The problem is in strong propaganda and manipulation and in the lack of freedom of speech. If Putin were right about his steps in Ukraine, he would not forbid people to protest. People would not flee en masse, unfortunately only the rich ones because, as we know, the poor are always the worst, usually not involved in anything and just wanting to survive. Just like in Ukraine, but no one in the East will pity them if they are manipulated by the media.
As I wrote before, if not for governments, if not for ambitious individual sick obsessed individuals, life in the world would be different.
If not for religions, life would also be different.

fansa3ca2932 Posted at 3-31 01:32
Dear Vergiliusz! Appreciate your kind words, one of my colleagues is in business with Polish supplier and we all are good friends.
I don't have any info about Russian navy fired at the merchant ships (logicaly: what they wold do that for?), but have an explanatoin why Ukraine choose Russia. It's not a secret that US supported military takeover in this country and continues this activity arming and funding - listen to what mr Biden says. In simple words (just my thoughts), Ukraine has lost sovereignty and mr Zelensky is following Biden's instructions. The main purpose is to weeken both Russia and Europe. Look what's going on: economic war is in full swing, Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, European and Russian economy pulls down. Who is the main beneficiary?

Fansa wrote: "Look what's going on: economic war is in full swing, Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, European and Russian economy pulls down. Who is the main beneficiary?"
The "cui bono?" principle. That's always the first question we should ask ourselves. Fansa  did, I did.
I won't answer that question, but I wish to provide some information to ponder over. Of course I ask you to educate yourself as I cannot guarantee all of my sources were uncompromized.

It is said that Russia earns about 1 billion USD per day with gas supply to other countries. I don't know the exact number, but I guess it's not wrong.
For a more secure gas supply (just look where the present pipelines are) without any gas disappearing in transit without a clue, "Nord Stream 2" was built.
The US asked Germany not to buy any gas from Russia - instead Germany should buy dirty fracking gas from the USA. Five times the price. Germany said no.
A few months ago, the new German chancellor got called to Washington. After he returned, he immediately canceled Nord Stream 2. But still gas kept flowing from Russia to Germany, not from the USA.
Then suddenly there was war. Strangely enough, Putin sent just 120,000 troops to the Ukrainian border, facing more than 1 million Ukrainian troops (including reservists). Impossible to invade a country with such a low number of boots on the ground. I didn't understand the sense in it. Then Russian troops captured Chernobyl. Again, I didn't understand that move. Then Russia attacked a "research facility" at another nuclear plant. Again, I asked me: WHY the heck???

It made sense after I learned that Ukrained had the third largest supply of nuclear warheads back in time, offered to wave farewell to the warheads, but didn't. They asked for money, from the West and from Russia for doing so - although they already signed a disarmament treaty. They gave up at last, but in the meantime nobody knew how many nuclear warheads remained in Ukraine. Und where to hide nuclear warheads better than in the vicinity of nuclear power plants? So I started understanding.
I saw Putin drawing the bioweapons card - like the USA did for having a reason to inva..., sorry, to free Iraque (from oil). "Same dirty game, Putin?", I thought.
Then I googled for "hunter biden" and "metabiota". You should do the same. Now I understood why Russia suspected biological weapons in Ukraine.

Sanctions came up, weaking Russia, stealing money from Russians, weakening Europe, too. Russia suffers, Europe suffers, two regions weakening each other.
There's attacks on plain normal Russian people in Germany, many Russians don't even dare to say a word in supermarkets, in fear to be recognized as Russians. Some decades ago, Germans were asked not to buy from Jews. Today, they are asked not to buy from Russians. Just read "Pinareks" hate statements to get an idea.

And Germany is in need of gas. Of course the USA selflessly offered to supply fracking gas - after they ordered, sorry, asked the German chancellor not to buy Russian gas via the Nord Stream 2 pipeline.
So if 1 billion per day is a realistic number, the USA now prepare for earning 5 billions a day. With the nice side effect of two economic adversaries weakening each other.
Ukraine signed a contract, promising to remain neutral. But recently, the USA offered them to become a NATO partner, also a female German EU politician suggested the same - against all treaties, liking the idea of placing the NATO in Russias front yard.

So someone paved the way to cutting Russia off from supplying gas to Germany, to selling their own gas instead for a much higher price, weakening Russia and Germany at the same time, and making Ukraine ask to become a NATO partner, starting and fueling the conflict.
That's why I find it important to ask yourself who benefits from the conflict.


That's why I ask all of you to make yourself a bit at home with history. I still don't know enough for stating real facts. But I know there's something very wrong.
I could continue with naming the psychological/propaganda tactics the Ukrainian leader utilizes, real dirty ones. But that's a different chapter.

I'll give you another topic to think about: Of course you know Wikipedia, the "free dictionary". It's specialty is that EVERYONE can add to it and edit each and every article. I am a registered Wikipedia author myself. You can edit everything. But you cannot edit the Wikipedia articles dealing with Ukraine. Only "special" people can.
Don't write, don't answer. Just think about it.

Vergiliusz Posted at 3-31 07:13
Well, Russians are the same people as other nations. The problem is in strong propaganda and manipulation and in the lack of freedom of speech. If Putin were right about his steps in Ukraine, he would not forbid people to protest. People would not flee en masse, unfortunately only the rich ones because, as we know, the poor are always the worst, usually not involved in anything and just wanting to survive. Just like in Ukraine, but no one in the East will pity them if they are manipulated by the media.
As I wrote before, if not for governments, if not for ambitious individual sick obsessed individuals, life in the world would be different.
If not for religions, life would also be different.

Thank you, Vergiliusz!

Quote: "People would not flee en masse, unfortunately only the rich ones because, as we know, the poor are always the worst, usually not involved in anything and just wanting to survive."
Exactly. That's people like you and me, people who didn't start a war and never wanted a war, people who cannot escape a war, people who are not allowed to take shelter in the vast underground bunker systems exclusively reserved for the guilty ones who started and fired the war.
Our "weapons" are just words. We can just try to repair a little part of the damage caused by politicians, media and propaganda.

There's a famous German saying: "Stell dir vor, es gibt Krieg - und keiner geht hin." - Just image they declare war - but nobody takes part.
A wish would come true.

@Landy Ich hatte wahrscheinlich Recht, dass Sie ein wenig oder sogar sehr analphabetisch und jung sind.

Mann... was für Romane schreibst du hier? wer will das wissen?
gibt es ZDF und Tagesschau hier, also musst du das ganze Zeug hier nicht wiederholen?

Hast du keinen Friseur, dem du das sagen kannst?

Landey Posted at 3-31 07:29
Fansa wrote: "Look what's going on: economic war is in full swing, Russians and Ukrainians killing each other, European and Russian economy pulls down. Who is the main beneficiary?"
The "cui bono?" principle. That's always the first question we should ask ourselves. Fansa  did, I did.
I won't answer that question, but I wish to provide some information to ponder over. Of course I ask you to educate yourself as I cannot guarantee all of my sources were uncompromized.

You are a Nazi , reading everything you write and have written. You are the biggest propagandist on this thread. no doubt in a different Time you would have hair growing under your nose all the way to your Lip.
Your a real nasty piece of work…..

hallmark007 Posted at 3-31 07:43
You are a Nazi , reading everything you write and have written. You are the biggest propagandist on this thread. no doubt in a different Time you would have hair growing under your nose all the way to your Lip.
Your a real nasty piece of work…..

He, this @landy is too stupid to be a Nazi.
But you are absolutely right, he is an idiot and that as a German..
he should be ashamed of this idiot!!!

hallmark007 Posted at 3-31 07:43
You are a Nazi , reading everything you write and have written. You are the biggest propagandist on this thread. no doubt in a different Time you would have hair growing under your nose all the way to your Lip.
Your a real nasty piece of work…..

Oh, poor boy ... ;)
Didn't you read my list or propaganda means?
E. g. "10. All who doubt our propaganda are traitors." Or Nazis, your choice.


Let's do it the usual way - the way that always makes you fail and foam with anger.
Just quote things I wrote to proof your accusations.

Remember: You always failed, you never delivered. Try again.

But I may remind you of that famous quote, supposed to be an Einstein quote: “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Landey Posted at 3-31 07:59
Oh, poor boy ... ;)
Didn't you read my list or propaganda means?
E. g. "10. All who doubt our propaganda are traitors." Or Nazis, your choice.

Did you not say earlier , don’t believe what people say, cmon get with it. Your swimming in your own sh1t here. This is an unjust war and Ukrainians are not killing Russians they are defending their own country and democracy.

hallmark007 Posted at 3-31 08:18
Did you not say earlier , don’t believe what people say, cmon get with it. Your swimming in your own sh1t here. This is an unjust war and Ukrainians are not killing Russians they are defending their own country and democracy.

See? Like I predicted: You cannot quote anything supporting your accusations.
As usual, as always you made a fool of yourself.

Ah, I almost forgot ... You mentioned the term democracy connected with Ukraine, right?
Do you define imprisoning your own people, taking your own people hostage as a definition of democracy? Did anyone vote for men not being allowed to flee from a war zone?

But let's stick to your juicy accusations.
I repeat: Just quote things I wrote to proof your accusations.
Or did you just spread - propaganda? ;)

Laney, youre so out of touch, i am just gonna answer one because 2 of you said the same and i was wrong so putting it right as i really cannot be bothered with your ignorance...

NATO didnt start anything, in Yugoslavia

What caused the war in Yugoslavia?
Its constituent republics declared independence due to unresolved tensions between ethnic minorities in the new countries, which fueled the wars. Most of the wars ended through peace accords, involving full international recognition of new states, but with a massive human cost and economic damage to the region.

Sorry, i forgot about, Iraq, yes because the US thought Saddam had WMD's but Saddam also needed to be brought down anyway.  In a sense, the idea that there were WMD's was enough to jump in, Saddam was a mad ba....d much like Putin is now.

all the rest of ya jabber, i mean, you asked why did he only show up with 120k soilders, be cause Putin seriously underestimated the Ukrainian's, he thought they would welcome Russia in, that most certainly wasnt the case, so thats why, you need to look up your  facts, you also said, How can you interprete "Ukraine remaining neutral" as "crawling to Putin"? because putin wants them to be russia, thats why he thought they would welcome the soldiers in, what you are really, really forgetting about is that the mad man LIES about everything that comes out of his gob. Why the hell are you defending this cr@p anyway, are you trying to hope we forget about what you guys did. thats the last im saying on this subject else i might get a ban as you both anger me so much, im on about just you 2 individuals, you have no place to lecture me!!

Bashy Posted at 3-30 22:48
Basically, Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, but still, we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works. To be honest and its only my opinion, i think the reason was just the excuse Putin has needed all along, he wants the band back together again, but had he taken Ukraine, he would then be on NATO's doorstep so, go figure, this is why the consensus is that he wouldnt have stopped at Ukraine, hence why NATO countries are aiding in this war and this is why the aid will go far beyond what it is now if Putin decides to go the Nuclear, bio or chemical route, its not in his best interest. Thats why we were quick on the ball re "bio labs" in Ukraine, Putin was trying that old chestnut, the "false flag", so far its put him off, but there is no telling.

Mr Russian person, you asked why would he do this to the people of Ukraine, 1 reason only, to create fear through terror in the hopes that the people would lay down and crawl to Putin, suffice to say, it failed, his 3 day exercise is now well over a month and your economy is basically on its knees, many western companies have pulled out of your country,  many thousands of Russian soldiers killed, the same for the men, women and children of Ukraine and for what, Putins ego. He is a sick man, mentally and physically!

Sorry Bashy, your told us "Putin doesn't want NATO on its doorstep. Why, i do not know, perhaps its too close in case something kicks off, but still, we (NATO) would never start anything anyway, that is not how NATO works".
Ok, but now "...Saddam also needed to be brought down anyway.  In a sense, the idea that there were WMD's was enough to jump in, Saddam was a mad ba....d much like Putin is now", then you just explained yourself why is reasonable to think that US and NATO are ready to start.

Yes, my friend @Bashy, you speak my heart out.

YOU also have to be sharper in your rhetoric, like I do. Soche idiots, like the Russian
and he stupid German @Landy only
understand insults and violence, a normal discussion is hopeless with such idiots.

They don't notice how stupid they are and think of the well-known saying:
"try to make it clear to a stupid person that he is stupid".

If I could, I would have smashed the damned face of such bastards myself,
unfortunately that's not possible because these idiots are
are too far away.

If there is one thing i have learnt over the years of using and running my own forum and that is, people say what they feel like, many things that they would never in a million years say face to face.

Also, we British know all too well that the Germans are arrogant people, something that shows all too well on here too.

I know all to well on forums that it can take the wrong said thing to get a ban, thats why i am conservative in what i say, i am in fact screaming obscenities here....

fansa3ca2932, lay off on the drugs just for a short while, there is no way on earth that NATO would start anything with Russia unless the security of NATO was threatened  the nuclear weapons assures that ya muppet, also, you want any proof? ok i will give you some, why the hell do you think we have only provided DEFENSIVE weapons to Ukraine, why do you think NATO has NOT agreed to a VERY much needed No-Fly Zone? because it will escalate into something much, much more, something that this world does not need and that is proof enough that NATO are NOT a threat to Russia, unless of course Russia starts something, with us and believe NATO will protect its interests when provoked. To be honest, i wish we had already, you certainly wouldn't be sat there all high and mighty that's for sure ;) Heck, the Russians cant even subdue a wee nation like Ukraine without resorting to shelling the hell out of the place, laying waste to whole cities and towns and villages, how do you think your Motherland will cope with a force that WILL shell back and worse, remember, we also have the tech on ourside, you have aging stock, thats being proven in Ukraine lol. One other thing, your Putin is saying that you are pulling back from certain places in Ukraine when infact that is total poop, you are being driven back, Putin is only saying that trying to save face, heck, you even shot down one of your own planes, ya ran over one of your own generals. ok, im done. I am walking away from this, i am actually very surprised that this thread is still here to be honest....