Tornado12 Posted at 4-7 07:59
I disagree. I think you are perhaps dabbling into an abstract argument. You have to focus on reality. When you are actually having to run a forum like this you have to actually make decisions on things. You will end up for example with someone who is being targetted, bullied, or attacked, and an aggressor who is perpetrating that. You have to actually take action. Telling both sides that you are not going to act because it infringes on free speech not only doesnt work but its utterly ridiculous.

Do you think it is ok for someone to post personal attacks and toxicity against other members on this forum, and to do it on a daily basis? If you think it is ok to allow this, then what is your thoughts regarding the targets of this members toxicity? Should they just deal with it? Should they just fight back and turn every thread into an argument of personal attacks back and forth? What is the purpose of forum rules and guidelines? Do you draw the line anywhere? Can I start making threats on your life openly in the forum? Is that allowed? If it isn't then how do you square that with your seeming "Free speech, anything goes" mantra? Should anyone on the forum being able to say anything at all that they want?

This is an example of a conversation that is escalating.  I'm not taking sides, I am just highlighting that the passions and opinions can lead to the metaphorical "temperature" of the conversation going up.  This is happening between two reasonable people, neither of whom I would ever imagine putting on a list of "keep an eye on these guys".

I have some thoughts on the specific topic being discussed, I just don't have time to jump in.

KokoFresha Posted at 4-7 00:44
I support. Let us be good people and make everyone's stay pleasant and useful.

Well said Sir.

Suren,  I agree with most of what you say, some of the messages I have seen are a total waste of time and effort.  I may have done some
that have been taken in the wrong way, but I try to put up a post that should be understood by people even with just a small amount
of experience with English, I truly like to think that I have done that.  I will increase my efforts to make my posts short, to the point, and
hopefully understandable.  NOT as wordy as this one

Until they start moderating blatant disinformation shared by known banned members that is then spread and commented on by good faith users "giving it undo credibility". It is probably best consumers don’t use this forum to get information. As it cannot be trusted. The unreliable information on this forum is as much as an embarrassment as the discourse.  I would not recommend anyone use this forum to influence a purchasing decision in its current state.

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 08:38
Until they start moderating blatant disinformation shared by known banned members that is then spread and commented on by good faith users "giving it undo credibility". It is probably best consumers don’t use this forum to get information. As it cannot be trusted. The unreliable information on this forum is as much as an embarrassment as the discourse.  I would not recommend anyone use this forum to influence a purchasing decision in its current state.

How about misinformation and outright lies spread by so-called "well-respected" members? How about the bullying by those same ones?

Mobilehomer Posted at 4-7 08:47
How about misinformation and outright lies spread by so-called "well-respected" members? How about the bullying by those same ones?

Yeah, obviously that is a problem. Blatant Lying and spreading disinformation should not be tolerated. However, calling a known troll out is not bullying. Calling someone out who is defending a known troll is not bullying. Calling out disinformation is not bullying. Condemning someone for contributing to the distribution of disinformation is not bullying. If we want this forum to be legitement, then the information discussed and shared needs to have integrity. But, like suren said.. all of this could be avoided if there were moderators bannning these trolls who try to share disinformation to sow discourse.

Charles Adams Posted at 4-7 08:09
This is an example of a conversation that is escalating.  I'm not taking sides, I am just highlighting that the passions and opinions can lead to the metaphorical "temperature" of the conversation going up.  This is happening between two reasonable people, neither of whom I would ever imagine putting on a list of "keep an eye on these guys".

I have some thoughts on the specific topic being discussed, I just don't have time to jump in.

I wouldn't call this an escalation though. This so far is just healthy debate. No one has attacked me, I have not attacked anyone. There is a fundamental difference between challenging someone's Ideas and attacking their person. This isn't a terribly hard distinction for me to make. These are the kind of distinctions you are forced to make when you manage a forum. I see several here who are seemingly struggling with making that distinction. Perhaps we have forgot what healthy debate and discussion looks like. This is where you need very good admins who do not struggle with these kind of judgement calls. This is where a well written set of guidelines is important.

I have challenged saints Idea that we should not have any rules or moderation in the forum. I could have ignored it, but I chose to open a discussion with him on the topic by challenging his ideas. Its a topic I know a lot about, and was very involved in for several years, so I have a lot to share on a topic like this. He made a little swipe at my previous website situation, by characterizing it as an exclusive club that I lorded over. I didn't take that as a personal attack though. I simply addressed that swipe by delving into what my website was all about. I used it as an opportunity to actually share some facts. I laid out the case for why rules and enforcement is essential to an online community. He replied back with a one liner quote that sounds nice in the abstract. I simply reinforced my point again that such an approach doesn't work. I never attacked him personally. He never attacked me personally. Why does a discussion like that somehow get confused with the personal attacks and fighting that is dominating this forum?

Charles, you seem to really take issue with the fact that I said I have a list of people I would deal with. Im not sure if you say that because you feel this has been some rash or vindictive decision on my part, but to me, I would say this on that topic: In 4-5 months of being a member on this forum, it has become incredibly apparent to me who the troublemakers are here. Simply reading the forum posts, its very clear to me where 90% of the problems that suren and others are talking about is coming from. The tone is set by a very small number of people who derail a thread, often with a personal attack. Once that is started, the person attacked then responds with an attack of their own, and then the whole thread devolves into a back and forth food fight. Am I the only one who has seen this same show for 5 months, and identified the same people involved time and time again? After watching it over and over and over again, yes, I have a very clear list of people who need to be dealt with. Do we want to deal with the problems on this forum or not? Do we want to take action and solve the problem or just talk about it ? We have forum rules that are being enforced very loosely. I advocate simply enforcing them.

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 08:52
Yeah, obviously that is a problem. Blatant Lying and spreading disinformation should not be tolerated. However, calling a known troll out is not bullying. Calling someone out who is defending a known troll is not bullying. Calling out disinformation is not bullying. Condemning someone for contributing to the distribution of disinformation is not bullying. If we want this forum to be legitement, then the information discussed and shared needs to have integrity. But, like suren said.. all of this could be avoided if there were moderators bannning these trolls who try to share disinformation to sow discourse.

A LOT of the verbage used by the "bullies" is absolutely NOT "calling out"!!! It IS abusive and the only purpose is to garner response. We both know of whom we speak. I tell you this, the un-banned one has caused more crap than the banned one. Just go back and read his posts.

Mobilehomer Posted at 4-7 09:04
A LOT of the verbage used by the "bullies" is absolutely NOT "calling out"!!! It IS abusive and the only purpose is to garner response. We both know of whom we speak. I tell you this, the un-banned one has caused more crap than the banned one. Just go back and read his posts.

I get what you are saying. I don’t know the answer to the question that I am about to ask. I promise it’s not me being sarcastic. I have just recently got back on this forum within the past 3 to 4 months. I have been a user for 6 years and was so shocked by all the crazy information being shared. Okay, back to my question. If the banned user had not posted anything and stayed banned, would the unbanned user have had as many of the distasteful responses and posts ?

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 09:07
I get what you are saying. I don’t know the answer to the question that I am about to ask. I promise it’s not me being sarcastic. I have just recently got back on this forum within the past 3 to 4 months. I have been a user for 6 years and was so shocked by all the crazy information being shared. Okay, back to my question. If the banned user had not posted anything and stayed banned, would the unbanned user have had as many of the distasteful responses and posts ?

They BOTH either need to grow up or be banned.  I and others have communicated this to both with little lasting result. The B actually acted fine for a short while until the U started in on him hot and heavy for no reason.

Mobilehomer Posted at 4-7 09:12
They BOTH either need to grow up or be banned.  I and others have communicated this to both with little lasting result. The B actually acted fine for a short while until the U started in on him hot and heavy for no reason.

The B is a true internet troll. So anything he is doing on this forum is not in good faith and should not be accepted or tolerated. He fits the definition of an internet troll. You can disagree, but I believe it to be a fact. So that leaves with this to say, the best way to handle a troll is to ignore them. I feel the UB user would be better suited to follow this advice. My goal was, to get enough people to doubt the information the troll was spreading so that it would not be relied on. I used the instruction book on how to respond to online trolls for the framing of my responses to it. It was just unfortunate that so many non-troll users bought into what he was selling. But, to be fair that is where critical thinking should come in. I understand everyone is focused on the civility, but, what good is civility if the information being discussed only exists outside of reality? We may as well be discussing unicorns. Just fyi, Stanmaster is the B's new account, go look at his posts on this thread. The UB Didnt cause that. Debating minsinformaiton is not a "healthy debate". But, a fool's errand. Because at the end of the debate, nothing that was discussed matters. However, when people come to the forum they see replies and responses to propaganda as if it was credible and deserving of" healthy debate".

ill just simply repeat the quick and easy statement i made right away, just so we are clear:

"we already have enough rules in place, let's just enforce the rules we have; we don't need more rules."

i will make one change however...for clarification on my opinion:

"overpolicing conduct on a forum eventually leads to policing speech."

You guys are both making good points. This is where forum moderation I think gets lost in the grey area. Most forum moderation will be in this grey area, and this is where you have to have really good guidelines. I want to stress that in all of my replies how important good guidelines are. This is also a problem that has arisen as a result of allowing a banned member to keep coming back and taking days to deal with them again. If we set this aside for a moment, I want to focus specifically on the thread that you guys are alluding to because I think there is an important point worth making here. The thread where he made up a bunch of craziness to explain the GPS issue - that is a thread that honestly I do not feel should have been stricken, at least not on its face. The only reason it does end up being stricken is because of who made it, and because he is someone who the admins have already banned, so again I am separating the author of the thread with the contents of the thread here to make a point, so keep that in mind. The content of the thread, while ridiculous, is a thread that should be allowed. This actually goes to saints point. If you strike that thread, then you have in fact treaded on someone's free speech. The post itself did not attack anyone, and didn't really violate any rules that I am aware of. In other words, we can not start trying to regulate ignorance in forum posts - that is when you start over reaching as an admin. I knew as soon as I seen that post that it was full of just ignorance, but I would defend someone's ability to post it and make that argument. You could say it is just speculation on the issue, which is well within bounds for a forum post to a community forum. The problem with the thread of course was who started it, and that members known tract record, and the fact that if his ban was made to be permanent, the post wouldn't have ever been made because he wouldn't have been on the forums to make it.

This is where I say you have to focus strictly on conduct. Even if a terrible member makes a stupid post, you can not hold that stupid post against them. You can only go against someone for things that violate the guidlines. Posting an ignorant opinion isnt against the guidlines.

The Saint Posted at 4-7 09:52
ill just simply repeat the quick and easy statement i made right away, just so we are clear:

"we already have enough rules in place, let's just enforce the rules we have; we don't need more rules."

Saint, you and I can find common ground on that then. I do not advocate running things heavy handed. In 3 years of running my own site I only perma banned a handful of people, and it was reserved for those who clearly earned it. I often gave them more chances that even my own guidelines allowed. Spent hours talking to them privately trying to reason with them .Literally wasted my time trying to keep them as members of the community, all the while knowing they were likely never going to change. In the end, I was forced to act, ban them, and then had my life threatened. You cant help some people. You have to be clear eyed about who you are dealing with.

All I advocate here is simply enforcing the existing rules on the forum. I have no advocated any new rules here. You seem to support enforcing the existing rules as well, so we are in agreement there. Based on the current rules however, you can not do many of the things that are fueling the creation of this thread. The admins have simply been extremely lenient or just uninvolved around here, so a lot is being allowed to go on.

I think we all have at least one individual (maybe more) that we would like to see booted.  I know I do.  I'd like to turn this around though, and rather than focus on advocating for policies that would get my targets axed (a self serving interest), I'll ask the reciprocal questions:  Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  If so, what do I think I'm doing that would facilitate such harsh feelings?  Am I willing to modify my behavior to try and get off their list of "people to ban"?

Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  I don't think so.  I think I frustrate some, but I don't think I've been put on any please-ban-this-guy list.
What do I think I'm doing that would facilitate such harsh feelings?  As I don't think I'm on anyone's list, I'm not certain what I might be doing to get on such a list.  I do think that I frustrate some by engaging in conversations that could be deemed as propagating harmfully inaccurate information or mis-information.
Am I willing to modify my behavior to try and get off their list of "people to ban"?  I'm willing to seriously consider, I'm not willing to commit.

I just went through that exercise live and unfiltered.  I don't expect anyone else to publicly do so.  But I encourage all to try it privately, as a thought experiment.  This is just to emphasize that there is another side of our "stories".

This does not address those whose primary motivation is to cause chaos.  This does serve to focus some attention on where we actually have power to make change.

Tornado12 Posted at 4-7 10:25
Saint, you and I can find common ground on that then. I do not advocate running things heavy handed. In 3 years of running my own site I only perma banned a handful of people, and it was reserved for those who clearly earned it. I often gave them more chances that even my own guidelines allowed. Spent hours talking to them privately trying to reason with them .Literally wasted my time trying to keep them as members of the community, all the while knowing they were likely never going to change. In the end, I was forced to act, ban them, and then had my life threatened. You cant help some people. You have to be clear eyed about who you are dealing with.

All I advocate here is simply enforcing the existing rules on the forum. I have no advocated any new rules here. You seem to support enforcing the existing rules as well, so we are in agreement there. Based on the current rules however, you can not do many of the things that are fueling the creation of this thread. The admins have simply been extremely lenient or just uninvolved around here, so a lot is being allowed to go on.

agreed!

KokoFresha Posted at 4-7 00:44
I support. Let us be good people and make everyone's stay pleasant and useful.

Nicely said KokoFresha

Bussty Posted at 4-7 00:49
Totally supportive of this

Thanks for the support

CloudVisual Posted at 4-7 01:46
What would also be nice is if the forum's bugs can be fixed. Nearly every thread has double posts because people click "post reply" and nothing happens, so they click again.

I have also encountered that, but that would be for another thread.

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 4-7 01:53
Whole heartedly agreed Suren, I use the "report" button quite frequently now.

Other than the report button which barely gets action, you can create a thread and report it

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 4-7 02:17
To gauge what other people are thinking/feeling.

Suren, can you edit the opening post and make it a poll?

For some reason it cannot be changed to a Poll, maybe because of all the replies already

DowntownRDB Posted at 4-7 02:43
Couldn't have said it any better Suren.  I support and applaud your effort.

Thanks for the support mate

JetSam Posted at 4-7 03:03
Totally Agreed ...... sometimes the users seem like the real workers ....

As much as we appreciate everyones help, assisting each other we need to learn where to draw the line

Charles Adams Posted at 4-7 10:49
I think we all have at least one individual (maybe more) that we would like to see booted.  I know I do.  I'd like to turn this around though, and rather than focus on advocating for policies that would get my targets axed (a self serving interest), I'll ask the reciprocal questions:  Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  If so, what do I think I'm doing that would facilitate such harsh feelings?  Am I willing to modify my behavior to try and get off their list of "people to ban"?

Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  I don't think so.  I think I frustrate some, but I don't think I've been put on any please-ban-this-guy list.

An interesting way of thinking, I know I can be a bit blunt at times and have wondered the same, it might be interesting if we could see our own reported count, I have just checked, that I can see we can't.

Charles Adams Posted at 4-7 04:45
Yes additional moderation would help to enforce a minimum level of reasonable discussion and etiquette, and I would like to see us elevate our discourse.  We have been referred to in various news sources, and I was truly embarrassed that we would be associated with the "gutter talk" that is a part of nearly every thread.  I will offer a minor counter view though:  There are some who express their passionate opinions with candor, and I really do appreciate the candor.  I try to get past the "insults and condescension" and evaluate the root opinion being expressed, and for the most part I try to not "escalate".  We have some members who are blunt because that's just who they are, and I can accept and appreciate that.

I think that the right balance is for the moderators to ensure the code of conduct and forum rules are followed, and for the moderators to step in early when conversations begin to "escalate".

Nicely said Charles. I have seen more appearances of Admin compared to before on here but its just that they need a heavy hand to deal with rule breakers n matter who it is, even if it is myself.

Mobilehomer Posted at 4-7 05:46
Agreed. There are four or five who constantly stir the pot needlessly. A simple "BLOCK MEMBER" option would go a long way toward solving the problem.

That would be a good change, if we could have that button on our threads, just to block a person that is being nasty, it would make a difference.

TonyPHX Posted at 4-7 05:48
Yes.  Suren, absolutely it does.  It is very unpleasant to have a thread devolve into a back and forth about who said what and when with vigorous copy/paste and snapshots of PM's etc.  It sucks the air out of the room.

I agree, bickering has no place here but health debate is welcome with no attacks.

DarthSLR Posted at 4-7 06:19
Suren, I agree and support.
Personal attacks, as well as nasty arguments do not help at all.

Thanks for the support Darth

Suren Posted at 4-7 10:53
Other than the report button which barely gets action, you can create a thread and report it

you can create a thread and report it
I have done that myself a while ago.


Maybe if more people used the report button trollers would be removed more quickly.

Bob-Mini-2 Posted at 4-7 08:20
Suren,  I agree with most of what you say, some of the messages I have seen are a total waste of time and effort.  I may have done some
that have been taken in the wrong way, but I try to put up a post that should be understood by people even with just a small amount
of experience with English, I truly like to think that I have done that.  I will increase my efforts to make my posts short, to the point, and

This was not wordy at all, Thanks for the support

Charles Adams Posted at 4-7 10:49
I think we all have at least one individual (maybe more) that we would like to see booted.  I know I do.  I'd like to turn this around though, and rather than focus on advocating for policies that would get my targets axed (a self serving interest), I'll ask the reciprocal questions:  Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  If so, what do I think I'm doing that would facilitate such harsh feelings?  Am I willing to modify my behavior to try and get off their list of "people to ban"?

Do I believe that there is one or more individuals that would want me to be banned?  I don't think so.  I think I frustrate some, but I don't think I've been put on any please-ban-this-guy list.

a great post of course, and you make excellent points again. I would get behind everything you say here.

I would add one simple thing there though, and Ive said it already but Ill just bring it to the front again.

We have a problem on this forum right now that is out of control. Most of us know where that problem is. The admins know where the problem is, because in one case they are banning the member at least once a week now it seems. Despite their consistent bans that same member is still able to cause the majority of the problems on here. The problem needs to be dealt with once and for all. I'm all for self reflection and everyone trying to elevate our conduct - this is a noble endeavor to advocate for, but we also need to cut out the cancer that is here. Until the cancer is dealt with nothing else is going to move the needle very much.  

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 08:38
Until they start moderating blatant disinformation shared by known banned members that is then spread and commented on by good faith users "giving it undo credibility". It is probably best consumers don’t use this forum to get information. As it cannot be trusted. The unreliable information on this forum is as much as an embarrassment as the discourse.  I would not recommend anyone use this forum to influence a purchasing decision in its current state.

This post is not aimed at members only that has been banned but other members on here, including myself and yourself. We need to have a higher tolerance in these forums and refrain from personal attacks. I am not going to defend anyones action but ask that going forward, if you don't agree with something, it is better to post your concern but if the thread starter does not agree, we should not get into an argument but move on. Keeps everyones blood pressure in check.

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 08:52
Yeah, obviously that is a problem. Blatant Lying and spreading disinformation should not be tolerated. However, calling a known troll out is not bullying. Calling someone out who is defending a known troll is not bullying. Calling out disinformation is not bullying. Condemning someone for contributing to the distribution of disinformation is not bullying. If we want this forum to be legitement, then the information discussed and shared needs to have integrity. But, like suren said.. all of this could be avoided if there were moderators bannning these trolls who try to share disinformation to sow discourse.

This thread is about banning anyone that sow the seed of trolling and other person, not just one person. Bullying has various meanings and definitions to it. Lets move forward and have proper discourse going forward.

Suren Posted at 4-7 11:07
This post is not aimed at members only that has been banned but other members on here, including myself and yourself. We need to have a higher tolerance in these forums and refrain from personal attacks. I am not going to defend anyones action but ask that going forward, if you don't agree with something, it is better to post your concern but if the thread starter does not agree, we should not get into an argument but move on. Keeps everyones blood pressure in check.

As long as the thread starter isn’t a known banned troll. I agree.

MavicFit91 Posted at 4-7 09:07
I get what you are saying. I don’t know the answer to the question that I am about to ask. I promise it’s not me being sarcastic. I have just recently got back on this forum within the past 3 to 4 months. I have been a user for 6 years and was so shocked by all the crazy information being shared. Okay, back to my question. If the banned user had not posted anything and stayed banned, would the unbanned user have had as many of the distasteful responses and posts ?

The unbanned member should then avoid the thread so as not to throw the forum off balance. If the information is lies, it will play out in the end and the liar will get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

StanMaster Posted at 4-7 09:52
Just because you support a Shill doesn't mean that his nonsense is any more valid. [view_image][view_image][view_image][view_image]

This is what we are trying to avoid. To be part of this forum, you need to commit to be a part of it. Healthy debate etc is accepted but poking comments at others are not. We need to refrain from it entirely. Do not be called the instigator in any of this, you are better than this.

Suren Posted at 4-7 11:11
The unbanned member should then avoid the thread so as not to throw the forum off balance. If the information is lies, it will play out in the end and the liar will get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I disagree. UB has just as much right to counter lies as the other users have to show interest in them and propagate. If someone knows something is untrue, I hope they let us know and also report the untrue information.

Suren Posted at 4-7 11:13
This is what we are trying to avoid. To be part of this forum, you need to commit to be a part of it. Healthy debate etc is accepted but poking comments at others are not. We need to refrain from it entirely. Do not be called the instigator in any of this, you are better than this.

Why are you talking with the banned members new account? Suren whether or not you want to admit it, you are part of the problem. You are replying to snoopy2 when you should simply ignore him and report . Like tornado says, the cancer needs to be cut out. However, you are talking to the cancer like they are a rational forum member acting in good faith. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you had not yet figured out you were responding to the troll here.