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DXO The suspense is killing me....
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SPLflyer
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Bussty Posted at 9-15 01:18
Hello Bernd

That is quite the difference, a very good subject to test detail.

I love to keep things simple. That's why I don't use ACDsee or IrfanView etc. (and no Lightroom either), but the small, slim "FastStone Image Viewer". With that I also did the conversion from DNG to TIFF. Without visible changes by FastStone.

FastStone also has an extremely simple "Draw Board", with which you can quickly and easily place arrows, circles, markers and text boxes for explanation in photos (see some howtodo-photos I already sent you ;-)). The program is free and has just 7.5 MB for download.

Cheers, Bernd
9-15 01:49
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Bussty
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-15 01:49
I love to keep things simple. That's why I don't use ACDsee or IrfanView etc. (and no Lightroom either), but the small, slim "FastStone Image Viewer". With that I also did the conversion from DNG to TIFF. Without visible changes by FastStone.

FastStone also has an extremely simple "Draw Board", with which you can quickly and easily place arrows, circles, markers and text boxes for explanation in photos (see some howtodo-photos I already sent you ;-)). The program is free and has just 7.5 MB for download.

Thanks Bernd I have seen some of your HQ screen grans with arrows etc and was going to ask what you use. I got tired of Windows Snipping tool and moved to Lightshot but sounds like FastStone may even be better!

Off to find and test now. Thanks so much!  I'll let you know how those TIFF conversions go.

Cheers Bussty  
9-15 02:08
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DAFlys
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Just tried it with the Lightroom plugin,   the results were quite good.

9-15 02:32
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SPLflyer
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Bussty Posted at 9-15 02:08
Thanks Bernd I have seen some of your HQ screen grans with arrows etc and was going to ask what you use. I got tired of Windows Snipping tool and moved to Lightshot but sounds like FastStone may even be better!

Off to find and test now. Thanks so much!  I'll let you know how those TIFF conversions go.

Hey Andrew, to set the record straight: I don't use FastStone as a screenshot tool (I don't think it can even do that), but exclusively as a viewer and just for the "Draw Board".

I take my screenshots the old fashioned way with the <print> button on the keyboard. I then paste the clipboard contents into PS and crop and save the image there. The "Draw Board" markings I make then only later in FastStone on the JPG ;-).
Edit, few minutes later: All back! FastStone also has a (never used) screen capture with various options (under "File").








9-15 03:08
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Bussty
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-15 03:08
Hey Andrew, to set the record straight: I don't use FastStone as a screenshot tool (I don't think it can even do that), but exclusively as a viewer and just for the "Draw Board".

I take my screenshots the old fashioned way with the  button on the keyboard. I then paste the clipboard contents into PS and crop and save the image there. The "Draw Board" markings I make then only later in FastStone on the JPG ;-).

Lol I did see the Screenshot Tool on the website but not free.

Anyways I have learned something tonight. Not having used DNGs until the Mini 3 Pro I have forgotten they are just a digital negative so contain a jpeg preview (I'm a little confused about whether that is from the original first image or embedded when DXO does its magic but that is even a little more confusing...read on)

So when I looked in my ACDsee and I tried FastSone at the original DXO DNG and a converted TIFF file from the DNG I got this...



And as you can see they are quite different. I hunted around in FastStone and then ACDsee's settings and found a little switch and both of them were set to show embedded image file in the DNG. So I switch that off in both apps and they both then showed the DNG and TIFF like this...



So the test results I showed above can't be right as I must have been only showing the embedded image in the DNG compared to the Photoshop converted TIFF file. This suggests that DXO is doing some tonal adjustment giving a flatter image that can be tweaked more easily, a bit like a flat profile in video? Am I on the right track there?

DAFlys it makes me think your post might be impacted by the above a bit too as that is a massive difference and I see it has the words "Embedded Preview" on the not so sharp side which makes sense.

So I'll try this again and see what I come up with.

Thanks

Bussty
EDIT: So big question for me is...when is the DNG Embedded image created in the DXO DNG that has gone through Pure Raw 2?


9-15 03:43
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gnirtS
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I believe the embedded preview is entirely untouched.  Thats pretty normal for DxO and others.  Its the same that came off the camera.
9-15 04:15
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-15 04:15
I believe the embedded preview is entirely untouched.  Thats pretty normal for DxO and others.  Its the same that came off the camera.

Ahh that would make a lot of sense
9-15 04:31
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Bussty
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So my original test for this was wrong I was testing, we think, with a DJI imbedded jpeg in the DXO DNG file vs a DJI DNG file developed through photoshop. So in no way representative. Here is the correct test.

Left hand side DJI DNG file past through DXO Pure Raw 2 to create a DXO DNG File then that was just saved as a TIFF using ACDSee

Right hand side DJI DNG file past through Adobe Camera RAW as a TIFF default settings...



What really stands out apart from the mop up of noise is the the removal of all those weird colour artifacts in the Adobe Camera RAW version and just a much cleaner image on the Left (DXO) side.

So I definitely concur with SPFlyer and you can see this lack of colour artifacts in his comparison also.

Cheers

Bussty  
9-15 04:37
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jmb63
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As of a few hours ago. I got an update advisory when opening DxO Photolab 5 and it this update included the Mini 3 in the added camera profiles.
9-15 08:30
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Bussty
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jmb63 Posted at 9-15 08:30
As of a few hours ago. I got an update advisory when opening DxO Photolab 5 and it this update included the Mini 3 in the added camera profiles.

Hey jmb63

This is great news . Looks like DXO is doing a really good job here
9-15 12:04
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-15 02:32
Just tried it with the Lightroom plugin,   the results were quite good.

[view_image]

Hey DAFlys

Just making sure you caught up with this post https://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=274412&pid=2853450   and the one 3 below it...

...so it looks like the Preview in the DNG may not be the DXO one but the original DJI one when the shot was taken. I'm checking with DXO to confirm.

But whichever it is DXO seems to be doing a superior job with the conversion to a TIFF or Jpeg.

Cheers

Bussty

Chee  
9-15 12:08
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SPLflyer
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The importance of denoising before stitching is shown by these two 300% crops of the same sky region. The upper crop is from a panorama which was made from DNGs previously denoised by DxO PureRaw. Even after further processing and refinement in Photoshop, the pano remained completely noise-free even in the uniform sky regions!

The image below shows the result of stitching with the original DJI DNGs. Although this pano (as a whole) was optimally treated with Topaz Denoise AI right after stitching in PanoramaStudio and before any further editing, an unremovable speckle noise remains.

The same or similar denoising can perhaps be achieved after a previous development of the DJI DNGs in Topaz Denoise AI. However, I don't know if an appropriate profile provides for simultaneous denoising and devignetting here, but it would certainly be worth further exploration.

9-15 14:19
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Bussty
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-15 14:19
The importance of denoising before stitching is shown by these two 300% crops of the same sky region. The upper crop is from a panorama which was made from DNGs previously denoised by DxO PureRaw. Even after further processing and refinement in Photoshop, the pano remained completely noise-free even in the uniform sky regions!

The image below shows the result of stitching with the original DJI DNGs. Although this pano (as a whole) was optimally treated with Topaz Denoise AI right after stitching in PanoramaStudio and before any further editing, an unremovable speckle noise remains.

It's really hard to denoise a 360 x 180 pano after it's stitched as the top and bottom parts of the pano in a 2D plane contain one or two images which are really stretched in the 2D space so they have huge apparent noise. Denoises really struggle with sorting the big clumpy noise top and bottom and the finer compacted images and noise towards the centre. So yes totally agree denoise before you stitch
9-15 14:57
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DAFlys
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Bussty Posted at 9-15 12:08
Hey DAFlys

Just making sure you caught up with this post https://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=274412&pid=2853450   and the one 3 below it...

How do you export to Tiff from Pure Raw?  I only see DNG or JPG options.  
9-16 01:28
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-16 01:28
How do you export to Tiff from Pure Raw?  I only see DNG or JPG options.

This is a great question! Just run the DJI DNG through Pure Raw 2 then using something like this https://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm  or I use ACDSee just batch convert the files to Tiff.

I plan to test this over the weekend.  Good luck!   
9-16 03:28
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DAFlys
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Bussty Posted at 9-16 03:28
This is a great question! Just run the DJI DNG through Pure Raw 2 then using something like this https://www.faststone.org/FSViewerDetail.htm  or I use ACDSee just batch convert the files to Tiff.

I plan to test this over the weekend.  Good luck!

I'll probably just use it as a plugin to light room,  seems to work quite well like that.
9-16 04:04
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-16 04:04
I'll probably just use it as a plugin to light room,  seems to work quite well like that.

That's awesome! Not a Lightroom user but have tried the DXO DNG in as many converters and developers  as I have and default conversion/development seems to create a pretty much similar result so I think you can treat the files like RAW or TIFF files but still experimenting. It's very clear though the DXO DNG's are superior than a DJI DNG passed though Adobe Camera Raw. Cheers Bussty
9-16 05:02
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Bussty Posted at 9-16 05:02
That's awesome! Not a Lightroom user but have tried the DXO DNG in as many converters and developers  as I have and default conversion/development seems to create a pretty much similar result so I think you can treat the files like RAW or TIFF files but still experimenting. It's very clear though the DXO DNG's are superior than a DJI DNG passed though Adobe Camera Raw. Cheers Bussty

Yes,  there is. great deal more sharpness and details recovered,  I will need to check if Alamy will except images that have been processed like that,  they have some curious requirements.  
9-16 06:14
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gnirtS
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Ive never seen Alamy reject anything in 14+ years.  If its technically OK (ie in focus, properly exposed) its accepted.
Far better than Shutterstock and its random rejection AI
9-16 11:43
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gnirtS
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Ive done some initial tests and it does make a big difference to the quality.  The sharpening is too much as expected so best turned off but it produces a much better, more detailed image.
Unsure yet whether the complex distortion is different but the image is a slightly different size to the original.
It has two different profiles - 12mp is recognised as "mini 3 pro with  zoom lens" and 48mp "mini 3 pro with wide angle lens" so its not trying  to force both modes into one.
There is a colour shift vs the embedded profile so i'll need to make a  new post-DxO profile with my colour checker to restore that.
The one disappointing this is it hasnt manage to remove the horrific colour shift artefacts on the 48mp images where you have fine detail and bright areas of contrast.  White road lines and fences still shift to purple.  That said it may make 48mp images actually usable quality wise as long as you dont have too many of the above.



All in all im happy - it does help a lot.
9-16 14:02
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-16 14:02
Ive done some initial tests and it does make a big difference to the quality.  The sharpening is too much as expected so best turned off but it produces a much better, more detailed image.
Unsure yet whether the complex distortion is different but the image is a slightly different size to the original.
It has two different profiles - 12mp is recognised as "mini 3 pro with  zoom lens" and 48mp "mini 3 pro with wide angle lens" so its not trying  to force both modes into one.

That's a pretty impressive comparison in favour of DXO. Do you know if that magenta is occurring only if those areas are over exposed or in correctly exposed areas also?  I have experienced this a couple of times now and find targeted HSL and painting the adjustment, works well. Seems that colour is so distinctive there would be few images where you are impacting other similar colours in the image and if selectively adjusting should clean up real easily.

Thanks for posting

Cheers

Bussty
9-16 14:33
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-16 06:14
Yes,  there is. great deal more sharpness and details recovered,  I will need to check if Alamy will except images that have been processed like that,  they have some curious requirements.

How do you find Alamy in terms of returns?  Are we talking 10's, 100's or 1000's in sales a year?  You don't have to answer that specifically if you don't want to. I understand

I think I tried Shutterstock a few years back and got a little disheartened

Look forward to your view.

Cheers

Bussty
9-16 14:37
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gnirtS
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Bussty Posted at 9-16 14:33
That's a pretty impressive comparison in favour of DXO. Do you know if that magenta is occurring only if those areas are over exposed or in correctly exposed areas also?  I have experienced this a couple of times now and find targeted HSL and painting the adjustment, works well. Seems that colour is so distinctive there would be few images where you are impacting other similar colours in the image and if selectively adjusting should clean up real easily.

Thanks for posting

Correctly exposed areas.  Any fine detail thats (i) bright with (ii) highish contrast on the edges tends to do it.

The obvious ones are road markings, fences and in particular, speckle from water.

Its a big issue on the 48mp and doesnt appear at all on the 12mp.  Its not straight CA so cant be easily fixed.

DxO is unable to remove these sadly.
9-16 14:42
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gnirtS
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Bussty Posted at 9-16 14:37
How do you find Alamy in terms of returns?  Are we talking 10's, 100's or 1000's in sales a year?  You don't have to answer that specifically if you don't want to. I understand

I think I tried Shutterstock a few years back and got a little disheartened

Wasn't directed at me but FWIW Alamy returns roughly 15% of Shutterstock for me each month.
Based on 10k+ images.
9-16 14:44
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-16 14:44
Wasn't directed at me but FWIW Alamy returns roughly 15% of Shutterstock for me each month.
Based on 10k+ images.

Good to know ! Thank you
9-16 14:53
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-16 14:42
Correctly exposed areas.  Any fine detail thats (i) bright with (ii) highish contrast on the edges tends to do it.

The obvious ones are road markings, fences and in particular, speckle from water.

Ok thanks.
9-16 14:54
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gnirtS
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A decent example of it there.  Not present on the 12mp same image from same spot.

Note DxO is unrelated to this - it simply cant cure them.

9-16 15:36
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-16 15:36
[view_image]

A decent example of it there.  Not present on the 12mp same image from same spot.

Fairly easy to remove though using HSL...

9-16 15:49
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gnirtS
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Not unless you want to spend ages doing local adjustments if you actually have similar colours you want to keep elsewhere in the image.
And removing it from water with anything except  crude desaturation takes hours.
(FWIW its less obvious on the image here.  Suspect colour space conversion is removing a lot of the vivid purple)
9-16 16:04
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-16 16:04
Not unless you want to spend ages doing local adjustments if you actually have similar colours you want to keep elsewhere in the image.
And removing it from water with anything except  crude desaturation takes hours.
(FWIW its less obvious on the image here.  Suspect colour space conversion is removing a lot of the vivid purple)

Hopefully only happens on a small percentage of images in that case.  Cheers Bussty
9-16 16:25
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DAFlys
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Bussty Posted at 9-16 14:37
How do you find Alamy in terms of returns?  Are we talking 10's, 100's or 1000's in sales a year?  You don't have to answer that specifically if you don't want to. I understand

I think I tried Shutterstock a few years back and got a little disheartened

To be honest its not great,   but Im making an effort this year to try and grow my catalog to see if that helps..
9-17 00:46
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-17 00:46
To be honest its not great,   but Im making an effort this year to try and grow my catalog to see if that helps..

Thanks for the feedback DAFlys I wonder in my case if effort is worth the return or just focus on making images for fun?  Cheers Bussty
9-17 02:24
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DAFlys
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Bussty Posted at 9-17 02:24
Thanks for the feedback DAFlys I wonder in my case if effort is worth the return or just focus on making images for fun?  Cheers Bussty

Ive actually made more this year with images being found in this forum or instagram,   but my catalog on Alamy isn't that big yet.   Initially I had a lot of  issues getting through there QC process that put me off,  and even now it takes about 15 days for images to be approved/rejected.  
9-17 02:28
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-17 02:28
Ive actually made more this year with images being found in this forum or instagram,   but my catalog on Alamy isn't that big yet.   Initially I had a lot of  issues getting through there QC process that put me off,  and even now it takes about 15 days for images to be approved/rejected.

Sounds a bit like Shutterstock they have some pretty strict requirements which put me off when I had a crack on that a few years back.
9-17 02:30
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Bussty Posted at 9-17 02:30
Sounds a bit like Shutterstock they have some pretty strict requirements which put me off when I had a crack on that a few years back.

Looking at a couple of reviews Shutterstock comes out on top.  Perhaps I will try my images on both.  I just can't set the exclusive flag.


https://www.microstockman.com/shutterstock-contributor-review/
9-17 02:35
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gnirtS
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Shutterstock was the biggest paid - the last few years they've absolutely slashed contributor payout percentages through various means including resets, discount packages, new cheap subscriptions etc.
Add that to their review process being literally a random number generator now.
FWIW ive got in the region of 20k images and 4k videos on SS and my income per download has reduced 80% in 2 years due to their changing policies.  Adobe stock pays better now most months.

But SS/AS are massively above Alamy,DT and others.

https://www.microstockgroup.com/  might come in useful to see the issues and other things about the options.
9-17 02:39
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Bussty
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gnirtS Posted at 9-17 02:39
Shutterstock was the biggest paid - the last few years they've absolutely slashed contributor payout percentages through various means including resets, discount packages, new cheap subscriptions etc.
Add that to their review process being literally a random number generator now.
FWIW ive got in the region of 20k images and 4k videos on SS and my income per download has reduced 80% in 2 years due to their changing policies.  Adobe stock pays better now most months.

Thanks for the info I guess this is to be expected given the exponential sources of images on the internet.

20K images is a huge number!

Cheers

Bussty
9-17 02:49
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Bussty
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DAFlys Posted at 9-17 02:35
Looking at a couple of reviews Shutterstock comes out on top.  Perhaps I will try my images on both.  I just can't set the exclusive flag.

Cheers DAFlys
9-17 02:49
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