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Some learns DXO RAW editing
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Bussty
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I have played around with the latest DXO profile to convert DJI DNG's to DXO DNG's uing Pure Raw 2 but you could also use Photolab Elite (Photolab  Essential doesn't have DeepPrime noise reduction.
But in playing around with DXO Pure Raw 2 and DNG files I have a much better understanding of DNG's. Here are some learns...

  • Using DXO Pure Raw or Photolab Elite will give you a clearer, less noisey DNG file than the Standard DJI DNG
  • All DNG's have a built in jpeg preview file. Careful here the preview for DJI DNG files is only 970 x 720 pixels the DXO DNG preview is the full size of the image, so no material difference in size of the RAW data compared to the preview file for DXO.
  • As far as I know you can't just "convert" DNG files you HAVE to develop them usng a RAW converter.  I made the mistake of "thinking" I could just batch convert DXO DNG files using ACDSee (not batch developing but batch converting file format) that Pure Raw 2 produced but all I was doing was converting the fullsize jpeg preview to an 8 Bit TIFF. I learned this when I was editing a sunset scene and was getting terrible colour banding as it was only 8 Bit. It is an easy enough mistake to make as unlike DJI the built in preview in DXO DNG's is pretty high quality.
  • For DNG's created with Pure Raw 2 the embedded DJI preview file is replaced with a brand new high quality full size jpeg file.
  • Most image viewing software has an option to view either the embedded jpeg in a DNG file or a quickly developed version of the RAW data. Most viewers are defaulted to the embedded preview.
  • So if you convert a DJI DNG using DXO Pure Raw or Photolab Elite to a DXO DNG depending on what DNG/RAW converter you use chances are the default development will result in a different look compared to your DNG preview file?  Why?  Any DNG file contains a preview file that is one interpretation of the development of it's RAW data. If you say use an Olympus Camera chances are the RAW preview will look exactly the same as a default development of that RAW file using the Olympus OM Workspace Raw Developer. That makes sense because the manfacture will want the two to match up. Because DJI doesn't make RAW converters I think they use Adobe Camera Raw as a standard and if developing a DJI DNG the lower quality preview should be close enough to a default development of the DNG using Adobe Camera Raw in terms of tone but the developed file will be of a much higher quality.
  • If you take a DJI DNG then use DXO Pure Raw or Photolab Elite to convert it to a DXO DNG if you then take that DXO DNG and default develop in Photolab Essential or Elite then the resulting TIFF file will be pretty much the same as the DXO DNG preview in terms of look. So much so in fact I have not only purchased Pure Raw 2 but also Photolab 5 Essential to develop the DXO DNG's knowing my starting point of the developed DNG is going to be same as the embedded preview. I wish I had known this earlier otherwise I would have purchased DXO Photolab 5 Elite which would happily convert a DJI DNG to a high quality TIFF (higher quality than Adobe Camera Raw)

So a weekend of learning and discovery. Thanks to SPLFlyer for helping work out some of those facts.

Cheers

Bussty

2022-9-18
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Hello there Bussty. Good day and thank you for giving out these interesting information with us. Again, thank you for your support and have a nice day.
2022-9-18
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Nicely summarized, Bussty

Cheers, Bernd
2022-9-19
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DJI Stephen Posted at 9-18 22:25
Hello there Bussty. Good day and thank you for giving out these interesting information with us. Again, thank you for your support and have a nice day.

Thanks DJI Stephen has been a really interesting exercise.

Cheers

Bussty
2022-9-19
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-19 00:00
Nicely summarized, Bussty

Cheers, Bernd

Cheers Bernd and thanks for your input. Using ExiftoolGUI was a game changer in figuring out what size those embedded previews were plus Bit depth.

Thanks

Bussty
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Just to add a couple of things -

Process the DNGs with PureRaw first in the work flow,   doing any merging of AEB shots and then merging is a failure.
The processed raws are twice the size as the originals.


EDIT:

Just found that it does wonders with images from my IR converted camera.
2022-9-19
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Thanks for sharing this information Bussty.      Lots of great to know info in your write up.
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DAFlys Posted at 9-19 02:35
Just to add a couple of things -

Process the DNGs with PureRaw first in the work flow,   doing any merging of AEB shots and then merging is a failure.

PureRAW is supposed to be a raw converter replacement so always meant to be the very first stage of workflow before any editing.
(Thats why you want to turn sharpening off - it oversharpens a LOT for a capture stage and causes problems further down the workflow)
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DAFlys Posted at 9-19 02:35
Just to add a couple of things -

Process the DNGs with PureRaw first in the work flow,   doing any merging of AEB shots and then merging is a failure.

Good to know DAFlys
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DowntownRDB Posted at 9-19 05:42
Thanks for sharing this information Bussty.      Lots of great to know info in your write up.

Cheers Downtown feel like I'm a lot more comfortable around DNG's now   Even better DXO has agreed to allow me to refund Pure Raw 2 and Photolab 5 Essential and purchase Photolab 5 Elite so I can just use the one software for everything. So very happy about that
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Bussty Posted at 9-19 11:36
Cheers Downtown feel like I'm a lot more comfortable around DNG's now   Even better DXO has agreed to allow me to refund Pure Raw 2 and Photolab 5 Essential and purchase Photolab 5 Elite so I can just use the one software for everything. So very happy about that

I wonder if that was wise, Bussty . I think the charm of PureRaw lies precisely in the straightforward development process: a batch of images in, a bunch of really cleanly developed images out again in no time. In PhotoLab you have to adjust the amount of DeepPrime denoising first and in addition in the 'Edit' mode a lot of automatic fine tuning is applied, which you might have to adjust to your preferences.

For single images this might be a process worth considering, for panoramas I prefer to be able to send the batch of optimally corrected images directly into the stitcher. And then I do the final fine tuning in the editor I'm most familiar with. For you that might be Affinity, for me PS. PhotoLab takes a lot of getting used to!

my 2 cents
Bernd :-)
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Bussty Posted at 9-19 11:36
Cheers Downtown feel like I'm a lot more comfortable around DNG's now   Even better DXO has agreed to allow me to refund Pure Raw 2 and Photolab 5 Essential and purchase Photolab 5 Elite so I can just use the one software for everything. So very happy about that

Wow, that really worked out fantastic for you then.  
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-19 12:03
I wonder if that was wise, Bussty . I think the charm of PureRaw lies precisely in the straightforward development process: a batch of images in, a bunch of really cleanly developed images out again in no time. In PhotoLab you have to adjust the amount of DeepPrime denoising first and in addition in the 'Edit' mode a lot of automatic fine tuning is applied, which you might have to adjust to your preferences.

For single images this might be a process worth considering, for panoramas I prefer to be able to send the batch of optimally corrected images directly into the stitcher. And then I do the final fine tuning in the editor I'm most familiar with. For you that might be Affinity, for me PS. PhotoLab takes a lot of getting used to!

Hi Bernd

Thanks for your concern. From what I have read DXO made a profile for Mini 3 Pro that you can load in Pure Raw and Photolab and reading here will give same default results but could be tweaked in Photolab Elite but not Pure Raw??  That's what I was hoping anyway...

https://support.dxo.com/hc/en-us/articles/4433062629649-How-do-I-reduce-or-deactivate-the-sharpening-enhancement-

https://support.dxo.com/hc/en-us/articles/4423295439761-What-is-the-difference-between-DxO-PureRAW-and-DxO-PhotoLab-and-what-do-they-have-in-common-
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-19 12:03
I wonder if that was wise, Bussty . I think the charm of PureRaw lies precisely in the straightforward development process: a batch of images in, a bunch of really cleanly developed images out again in no time. In PhotoLab you have to adjust the amount of DeepPrime denoising first and in addition in the 'Edit' mode a lot of automatic fine tuning is applied, which you might have to adjust to your preferences.

For single images this might be a process worth considering, for panoramas I prefer to be able to send the batch of optimally corrected images directly into the stitcher. And then I do the final fine tuning in the editor I'm most familiar with. For you that might be Affinity, for me PS. PhotoLab takes a lot of getting used to!

Hello again Bernd

Also found his article which says you can create a profile which you can run again and again so hopefully achieves the same end. I just feel now I have an extra step...

https://lenscraft.co.uk/photography-blog/photolab-vs-pureraw/

Current process
Pure Raw 2 - Convert DJI DNG to DXO DNG
Photolab 5 Essentials - Convert DXO DNG to TIFF/JPEG

Future process
Photolab 5 Elite - Convert DJI DNG to TIFF/JPEG

I'm also thinking when I'm away on trips I sometimes take 500+ shots a day (panoramas, focus stacks 15+ images a scene!, AEB's plus Drone shots) so by the time I have all those original raws, converted DNG's then TIFFS I'm going to be running low on laptop space some of those DXO TIFFS are 279mb so 5 of those is a Gig!  Gulp :-)

Hopefully it works out if not I'll let you know. I'll feel VERY sheepish if I have to go back to DXO again and ask them to undo the change :-)

Cheers

Bussty
2022-9-19
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DowntownRDB Posted at 9-19 12:13
Wow, that really worked out fantastic for you then.

Thanks Downtown I think so
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Bussty Posted at 9-19 00:25
Thanks DJI Stephen has been a really interesting exercise.

Cheers

Hi there Bussty. You are very much welcome and thank you for the reply. Have a safe and a happy flying always. .
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Bussty Posted at 9-19 13:04
Hello again Bernd

Also found his article which says you can create a profile which you can run again and again so hopefully achieves the same end. I just feel now I have an extra step...

You may be right, Bussty. I hadn't noticed before that PhotoLab provides two different DNG export models from the PhotoLibrary. In fact, I guess you can also choose to apply corrections analogous to those in PureRaw. I didn't know that, as I had only tried TIFF export so far.

Ok, so with PhotoLab you really do have the "egg-laying willow". (in German: eierlegende Wollmilchsau / egg-laying wool milk sow)

Cheers
Bernd
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-19 23:46
You may be right, Bussty. I hadn't noticed before that PhotoLab provides two different DNG export models from the PhotoLibrary. In fact, I guess you can also choose to apply corrections analogous to those in PureRaw. I didn't know that, as I had only tried TIFF export so far.

Ok, so with PhotoLab you really do have the "egg-laying willow". (in German: eierlegende Wollmilchsau / egg-laying wool milk sow)

Hey Bernd

That cracks me up I think in English we would say having Photolab is like having "your cake and eating it too" or "it's the Goose that laid the golden egg"  love the "egg-laying wool milk sow" expression I'm sure they mean something similar  

Just waiting now for DXO to find a time to undo my purchases then I get to go buy Photolab 5 Elite!

Cheers

Bussty  
2022-9-20
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Bussty Posted at 9-19 14:45
Thanks Downtown I think so

You're very welcome.  
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i am not sure i understand. i have tried latest dxo photolab (deppprime NR) and found i could get better results with Lightroom overall
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DxO isnt primarily about noise reduction.  Thats a tiny part of it.
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tazztone Posted at 9-20 08:43
i am not sure i understand. i have tried latest dxo photolab (deppprime NR) and found i could get better results with Lightroom overall

Hi Tazztone

Can you post an example with link to original files? We can have a look.

Cheers

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Bussty Posted at 9-19 13:04
Hello again Bernd

Also found his article which says you can create a profile which you can run again and again so hopefully achieves the same end. I just feel now I have an extra step...

You've certainly dived into the DXO world. I have had nothing but good experience with their products.

"I'm also thinking when I'm away on trips I sometimes take 500+ shots a day (panoramas, focus stacks 15+ images a scene!, AEB's plus Drone shots) so by the time I have all those original raws, converted DNG's then TIFFS I'm going to be running low on laptop space some of those DXO TIFFS are 279mb so 5 of those is a Gig!  Gulp :-) "

When using Photolab Elite, you don't actually have to convert the DJI DNG, all your adjustments (raw development, denoise, sharpening etc.) are recorded in the application's database, so you shouldn't have storage problems caused by using a DXO workflow. Typically, what I do is raw development of the native DNG (whether camera, drone, GoPro etc.) in PhotoLab, then export any I want to further enhance as a 16-bit TIFF to a photo editor of choice (Photoshop, Affinity Photo etc.).

Hope this helps

Steve
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tazztone Posted at 9-20 08:43
i am not sure i understand. i have tried latest dxo photolab (deppprime NR) and found i could get better results with Lightroom overall

How are you making this comparison? DeepPrime NR is only visible in the inspector (i.e. not the main image display) and is only applied when the image is exported.



In my experience, DXO NR and Lightroom is like chalk and cheese .. DXO comes out on top every time
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forbsie Posted at 9-20 14:46
You've certainly dived into the DXO world. I have had nothing but good experience with their products.

"I'm also thinking when I'm away on trips I sometimes take 500+ shots a day (panoramas, focus stacks 15+ images a scene!, AEB's plus Drone shots) so by the time I have all those original raws, converted DNG's then TIFFS I'm going to be running low on laptop space some of those DXO TIFFS are 279mb so 5 of those is a Gig!  Gulp :-) "

Hi Steve

I'm with you on single shots. I also got into a habit with the Olympus of batch converting the lot to Tiff cos it did such a good job and I'm just 100% in love with SNS-HDR Pro for HDR, Normal Edits and stunning Black and White and it's not to happy interfacing with DNG's

Panoramas and Focus Stacks (using Helicon Focus) to retain the "look" I have found it's better to interface with Tiffs.

My head hurts with those "virtual" edits you can create so I just run with a Original RAW/DNG from Camera, use a temporary Tiff and create a high quality jpeg. Ditch the tiff and keep the Original and jpeg.

With DXO though and single edits I'll probably still export to Tiff to use in SNS-HDR but I'm quite keen to see what PhotoLab 5 Elite can do and it may kick SNS of it's perch with me. One thing I love about SNS is it's amazing ability to make almost noiseless black and white even when cranking it...  

https://andrewbusst.wixsite.com/mysite/central-otago?pgid=je2528ci-b56bcff2-4386-486d-af56-bd0e6b087f98

Expect some questions as I get used to Photolab 5

Cheers

Bussty
2022-9-21
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Bussty Posted at 9-21 01:09
Hi Steve

I'm with you on single shots. I also got into a habit with the Olympus of batch converting the lot to Tiff cos it did such a good job and I'm just 100% in love with SNS-HDR Pro for HDR, Normal Edits and stunning Black and White and it's not to happy interfacing with DNG's

Beautiful image Andrew, .. has an Adams-like quality about it!

I've never heard of SNS-HDR, I have used AuroraHDR from Skylum which is excellent but is no longer being developed, and HDR EfexPro from DXO (also excellent), or manually more often these days using luminosity masks.

Good luck with PL5
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forbsie Posted at 9-21 04:46
Beautiful image Andrew, .. has an Adams-like quality about it!

I've never heard of SNS-HDR, I have used AuroraHDR from Skylum which is excellent but is no longer being developed, and HDR EfexPro from DXO (also excellent), or manually more often these days using luminosity masks.

Thank you Steve! And hope I can use some of your experience once I get into PL5.

SNS-HDR is a not well known but been using it now for 5-6 years? Looking forward to testing out PL5 though I suspect different softwares will have different strengths.

I keep thinking Ansel would not believe the tones we can extract today :-)

Cheers

Bussty
2022-9-21
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Some quick edits with DxO Photolab 5:  1  2  3
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iHarri Posted at 9-21 12:12
Some quick edits with DxO Photolab 5:  1  2  3

Hi Harri, your images look great! What a beautiful location to fly.
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iHarri Posted at 9-21 12:12
Some quick edits with DxO Photolab 5:  1  2  3

Very nice iHarri Looks like real wilderness
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forbsie Posted at 9-20 15:11
How are you making this comparison? DeepPrime NR is only visible in the inspector (i.e. not the main image display) and is only applied when the image is exported.

[view_image]

oh thanks for pointing that fact out. did not realize
2022-9-23
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Just updating, DXO kindly refunded my Pure Raw 2 and Photolab 5 Essential purchases and I have purchased Photolab 5 Elite.

Now I can develop and batch develop straight from DJI DNG's to full 16bitt TIFFS or 8bit jpegs with all of DXO's very good optical corrections. To match Pure Raw's adjustments I just made a profile following this recipe...

MATCH PURE RAW 2 DEVELOPMENT
If you are using PureRAW at it’s default settings, then you will have to modify your settings in PL5 in order to get them to match. Just using the “Export to DNG with Optical Corrections and NR Only” will not suffice. You will need to do the following:
- With your RAW photo in PL5 Customize tab click on Apply Preset at the upper right, then click the Optical Corrections Only preset.
- Go to DxO Denoising technologies and click on Deep Prime.
- Go to Lens Sharpness and raise the slider from 0.00 up to 1.00.
- Now export to DNG with Optical Corrections and NR Only and they should match.

...from what I have seen so far appears spot on plus I have the advantage of being able to tweak any of the corrections either individually or in a batch.

Why all this?  I now have a better alternative providing superior results to Adobe Camera Raw Converter.

Cheers

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Bussty Posted at 9-23 15:15
Just updating, DXO kindly refunded my Pure Raw 2 and Photolab 5 Essential purchases and I have purchased Photolab 5 Elite.

Now I can develop and batch develop straight from DJI DNG's to full 16bitt TIFFS or 8bit jpegs with all of DXO's very good optical corrections. To match Pure Raw's adjustments I just made a profile following this recipe...

Hey Bussty,

thanks for your detailed explanation and description of your settings to reproduce the PureRaw results in PhotoLab. I followed your instructions and developed the same DJI DNG (the subject you know with houses and gardens from our town center) with both the unsharpened PureRaw and the preset you recommended in PhotoLab. In direct comparison in 100% view it looks identical in terms of rectification and denoising – but sharpening with the value 1.00 clearly leads to a slightly sharper image in the PhotoLab sample. The less sharpened result in the PureRaw image seems to me to correspond more to the PhotoLab preset of 0.00 for 'Lens Sharpening'.

The used image has hardly noticeable noise in the original. That's why I can't notice any differences in the denoising. But clicking on 'Deep Prime' in Photolab fixes the denoising value to the preset of 40% (if you don't change it consciously) and so it is also taken over into the current preset – just like the selected value 1.00 for Lens Sharpness. So I have set two fixed values here.

With PureRaw, on the other hand, I assume that the values used (even with batch processing) are chosen variably after individual analysis. A very noisy image will then certainly not only be denoised with 40% Deep Prime, but with 100%. I miss this automatism with PhotoLab! Here, the "Export to DNG with Optical Corrections and NR Only" requires individual preselection of both the amount of denoising and the value of sharpening (the rectification is preset in DxO's Mini 3 profile). This has the advantage of not only being able to choose between two sharpening values ('on' and 'off') as with PureRaw, but to be able to fine-tune here. Also, the selectable amount of denoising may have advantages, but requires longer trial and error for the optimal value.

For single shots, which are more common for you, this may be an advantage especially for TIFF or JPG export. But I have to admit that the (very good) automatism of PureRaw suits my needs of a fast batch development for panoramas much more.

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Bernd
2022-9-24
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SPLflyer Posted at 9-24 07:25
Hey Bussty,

thanks for your detailed explanation and description of your settings to reproduce the PureRaw results in PhotoLab. I followed your instructions and developed the same DJI DNG (the subject you know with houses and gardens from our town center) with both the unsharpened PureRaw and the preset you recommended in PhotoLab. In direct comparison in 100% view it looks identical in terms of rectification and denoising – but sharpening with the value 1.00 clearly leads to a slightly sharper image in the PhotoLab sample. The less sharpened result in the PureRaw image seems to me to correspond more to the PhotoLab preset of 0.00 for 'Lens Sharpening'.

Hey Bernd

Thanks for that yes I think the 1.00 for sharpness may mimic when that is turned on in Pure Raw so you could turn down as a preset if too much. Regards the DeepPRIME  the info from DXO says the two use the same engine so I'm assuming they will both detect the amount of noise then adjust accordingly. That would require an auto setting in DeepPRIME and I think selecting the magic wand mimics that functionality??  I'm not 100% but would seem to make sense...



What do you think?  

Cheers

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Bussty Posted at 9-24 20:10
Hey Bernd

Thanks for that yes I think the 1.00 for sharpness may mimic when that is turned on in Pure Raw so you could turn down as a preset if too much. Regards the DeepPRIME  the info from DXO says the two use the same engine so I'm assuming they will both detect the amount of noise then adjust accordingly. That would require an auto setting in DeepPRIME and I think selecting the magic wand mimics that functionality??  I'm not 100% but would seem to make sense...

Hello Andrew,

I think we are gradually getting closer to the matter. Your assumption with the magic wand is obvious and probably does indeed cause the automatism.

And because a picture is worth a thousand words, I have summarized the workflow for creating a "PureRaw" preset here:



The only question that remains is the "Chromatic Aberration". What does PureRaw do here and does it make sense to switch on the automatism here as well and to activate "Purple fringing" (color artifacts in 48 MP images!)?

And: Do you have a really nice noisy 6400 ISO DNG to test the automatism?

Cheers, Bernd

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SPLflyer Posted at 9-25 01:09
Hello Andrew,

I think we are gradually getting closer to the matter. Your assumption with the magic wand is obvious and probably does indeed cause the automatism.

Hello Bernd

I think we are almost there. Here's a very noisey 840 ISO DJI DNG that you might be able to use

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aLU3DrLUbY1nOR0qCI_VIg3juIBFV0mX/view?usp=sharing

I'm guessing for all the Pure Raw 2 adjustments these settings would have to be on Auto (Magic wand) in PL5 if the same engine is used in both. I too wondered about the Purple Fringing but am guessing it's off by default.

Good luck let me know how that file compares between Pure Raw and Photolab 5 using the settings you suggest.

Cheers

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2022-9-25
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DxO Photolab 6 is out.
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iHarri Posted at 10-6 06:36
DxO Photolab 6 is out.

I get optimal results in Windows under DxO Photolab 6 when processing my 35 DJI Panorama DNGs with this preset:

see end of post ;-)

After downloading, rename the file extension "zip" to "preset" and copy the file to "C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\DxO\DxO PhotoLab 6\Presets\DeepPrimeXD Sharpen 0.preset".

For noise reduction, the new DeepPrimeXD is set with a no sharpening of "0", because, interestingly, the sharpness result is better at "0" than at "1". I have not tried "2" and "3", but if necessary, these values can be easily changed.

DeepPrimeXD Sharpen 0.zip

8.35 KB, Down times: 11

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DxO Photolab 6 Elite, DeepPRIME XD
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