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180 rule and motion blur with Mavic Mini 3 Pro
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MetaFlexa
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If i am shooting at 30fps on the mini 3 Pro which is the fixed 1.7 lens, then i need the shutter speed to always be 1/60 to create motion blur, correct? Isn't this tricky with a 1.7 lens which can't adjust to lighting? How do i create perfect exposure if SS at 1/60 and aperture at 1.7? Only thing left is ISO. Is that enough when conditions change? Yes i know i can use ND filters :-). Probably a silly newbie question from me. Thx
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DAFlys
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Thats want the ND filters are for.     DJI sell a set or Freewell do some 3rd party sets.  
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MetaFlexa
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True I have the freewell. But if you are stuck at 1.7 and 1/60 then you are only left with ISO which makes things very difficult.
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primeshooter
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That is correct but at night just use 1080 or 4K, and 24FPS to get the most light to the sensor as possible. It will still have a very similar effect.
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gnirtS
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Remember the 180 isn't a rule.  It's a guideline, an approximation and highly scene dependent.

If shooting 30fps you dont HAVE to have 1/60th.  Absolutely nobody is going to notice if that shutter is 1/50th or even 1/100th.
If the scene has no fast motion nobody will notice if its 1/320th.

Don't get hung up on "I shoot XX fps so shutter MUST be 1/YY".

As above though, if shooting at night, drop it to 24fps or similar to allow that extra stop of light in and a lower ISO.  And dont use an ND.
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MetaFlexa
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Thank you!
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MetaFlexa
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gnirtS Posted at 12-27 08:24
Remember the 180 isn't a rule.  It's a guideline, an approximation and highly scene dependent.

If shooting 30fps you dont HAVE to have 1/60th.  Absolutely nobody is going to notice if that shutter is 1/50th or even 1/100th.

By the way, how do I get an extra stop of light by dropping the fps to 24? Thx.
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primeshooter
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gnirtS Posted at 12-27 08:24
Remember the 180 isn't a rule.  It's a guideline, an approximation and highly scene dependent.

If shooting 30fps you dont HAVE to have 1/60th.  Absolutely nobody is going to notice if that shutter is 1/50th or even 1/100th.

True this. I am not a video guy so have not even bothered with the expense or hassle as I would be landing to remove them too much. I still share a lot of reels on instagram and from height, I can be shooting 1/2000 and you still would not notice as the scene doesn't have huge motion. Also from height, you do not notice the blur that an ND gives so really - with care you can get away without them. Or just go for the "Saving Private Ryan" look all the time ;-)
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-27 08:58
By the way, how do I get an extra stop of light by dropping the fps to 24? Thx.

If you are at 30FPS, dropping to 24FPS will not give you an extra stop of light. In low light though, you should be shooting at 24FPS to maximise light gathering for the small sensor in the drone. It would be stupid to shoot at 60FPS and not 24, meaning your footage would collect under half as much light.
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MetaFlexa
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Figured it out with extra stop of light. Lens open longer during lower frame rate
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MetaFlexa
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primeshooter Posted at 12-27 09:00
True this. I am not a video guy so have not even bothered with the expense or hassle as I would be landing to remove them too much. I still share a lot of reels on instagram and from height, I can be shooting 1/2000 and you still would not notice as the scene doesn't have huge motion. Also from height, you do not notice the blur that an ND gives so really - with care you can get away without them. Or just go for the "Saving Private Ryan" look all the time ;-)
Thx. Yeah I would only use it when shooting close to the ground where it makes more sense
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gnirtS
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-27 08:58
By the way, how do I get an extra stop of light by dropping the fps to 24? Thx.

If trying to follow the 180 rule then if you halve the frame rate (say from 50 to 25) then you also halve the shutter speed required (in this example from 1/100th to 1/50th).

A halving on shutter speed is an extra stop of light so you can lower the ISO by a stop or whatever to balance.

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gnirtS Posted at 12-27 14:18
If trying to follow the 180 rule then if you halve the frame rate (say from 50 to 25) then you also halve the shutter speed required (in this example from 1/100th to 1/50th).

A halving on shutter speed is an extra stop of light so you can lower the ISO by a stop or whatever to balance.

Yep i get it now. Thank you
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DAFlys
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-27 07:19
Two I have the freewell. But if you are stuck at 1.7 and 1/60 then you are only left with ISO which makes things very difficult.

Sounds like you just need a stronger ND filter then.  
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MetaFlexa
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 01:26
Sounds like you just need a stronger ND filter then.

sure but my point was that if you have two fixed components: aperture and SS then your exposure triangle is screwed as you are only left with ISO and anything above 400 isn't too nice IMO
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DAFlys
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-28 01:57
sure but my point was that if you have two fixed components: aperture and SS then your exposure triangle is screwed as you are only left with ISO and anything above 400 isn't too nice IMO

Yes. On some drones like the Minis you need ND filters,  on the bigger drones like the Mavic 2 or 3 series there is a variable aperture,  but even then ND filters can be needed.   Its very very normal in film making to use ND's.
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 01:59
Yes. On some drones like the Minis you need ND filters,  on the bigger drones like the Mavic 2 or 3 series there is a variable aperture,  but even then ND filters can be needed.   Its very very normal in film making to use ND's.

agree. thx. another question: is there a visible diff between shooting 4k @ 30 or 24fps?
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-28 02:16
agree. thx. another question: is there a visible diff between shooting 4k @ 30 or 24fps?

Personally I find 4k30 sharper and its my preference.
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MetaFlexa
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 02:21
Personally I find 4k30 sharper and its my preference.

But at night you change to 24 right to get more light into the sensor?
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DAFlys
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-28 02:44
But at night you change to 24 right to get more light into the sensor?

No I dont.   Id typically up the ISO a little if needed.
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primeshooter
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 02:50
No I dont.   Id typically up the ISO a little if needed.

That doesn't do anything but increase gain and noise. Does not increase light falling onto the sensor; infact that is a common misconception...
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 07:45
That doesn't do anything but increase gain and noise. Does not increase light falling onto the sensor; infact that is a common misconception...

You wont see the noise if it's only a small increase.
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 07:51
You wont see the noise if it's only a small increase.

But then you could say the same for dropping to 24fps. Are you putting the shutter to 1/30 or doubling it. At night, this is not advisable...
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DAFlys
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 07:54
But then you could say the same for dropping to 24fps.

No thanks I prefer the look of 30fps and it fits my other cameras nicely for when I have to mix footage.
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 07:55
No thanks I prefer the look of 30fps and it fits my other cameras nicely for when I have to mix footage.

That is fine if your going for a 30fps look.
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 07:56
That is fine if your going for a 30fps look.

Yes,   I far prefer it.   feels more modern.  
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gnirtS
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I'll do pretty much anything to keep the iso low on the mini.

Once you hit 400 or above the noise is awful.  Admittedly now you can disable the hideous NR algorithm which butchered images but higher iso video still has so much noise its hard to fix in post and a lot of detail is still lost.
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gnirtS Posted at 12-28 08:49
I'll do pretty much anything to keep the iso low on the mini.

Once you hit 400 or above the noise is awful.  Admittedly now you can disable the hideous NR algorithm which butchered images but higher iso video still has so much noise its hard to fix in post and a lot of detail is still lost.

This is true...for photo and video I really rarely go above 100. For photography think I have strayed from iso once.
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DAFlys Posted at 12-28 08:06
Yes,   I far prefer it.   feels more modern.

If you make any moderate speed pans you will need 30fps yeah.
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MetaFlexa
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gnirtS Posted at 12-28 08:49
I'll do pretty much anything to keep the iso low on the mini.

Once you hit 400 or above the noise is awful.  Admittedly now you can disable the hideous NR algorithm which butchered images but higher iso video still has so much noise its hard to fix in post and a lot of detail is still lost.

how can you disable it?
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DAFlys
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 08:54
If you make any moderate speed pans you will need 30fps yeah.

Yep.  It’s much more versatile.  
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-28 08:59
how can you disable it?

You don't disable, you just adjust everything else first to try to keep it as low as possible,
FPS, shutter speeds, time of day and anything else.

Then shoot manual or semi manual with a locked in ISO that's the highest you can get away with quality wise.

Mini 3 is "ok" at 200.  Above that noise increases and detail drops off rapidly.
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gnirtS
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 08:53
This is true...for photo and video I really rarely go above 100. For photography think I have strayed from iso once.

I'll allow photo to go up a bit if needed.  Things like a video flight where i still have an ND filter on and dont want to return to remove i'll use a higher iso.

I never use the pseudo-48mp as the noise and quality is poor but on 12mp you can shoot up to 200, 400 if desperate providing its exposed correctly and you do post production NR.
Video on the other hand anything above 200 is pretty nasty.
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MetaFlexa
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gnirtS Posted at 12-28 13:04
You don't disable, you just adjust everything else first to try to keep it as low as possible,
FPS, shutter speeds, time of day and anything else.


Thx! I didn’t realize noise was so bad at such a low iso of 400
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gnirtS
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Depends on the scene and how much detail, the range and shadows are.
There's no magic answer.  Generally i find 400 produces unacceptable loss of quality for most of what i do.  Others may find different.
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primeshooter
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gnirtS Posted at 12-28 13:05
I'll allow photo to go up a bit if needed.  Things like a video flight where i still have an ND filter on and dont want to return to remove i'll use a higher iso.

I never use the pseudo-48mp as the noise and quality is poor but on 12mp you can shoot up to 200, 400 if desperate providing its exposed correctly and you do post production NR.

That is fair dos. I don't use nd filters so I never have that issue. Always nailed at iso 100 for photography.
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MetaFlexa Posted at 12-28 13:07
Thx! I didn’t realize noise was so bad at such a low iso of 400

Always ETTR with a small sensor. It's good practice for any camera actually...don't clip on the right hand side and bracket. Even at higher iso which I suggest you avoid...this practice will work well to allow the greatest latitude during post.
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primeshooter Posted at 12-28 14:10
Always ETTR with a small sensor. It's good practice for any camera actually...don't clip on the right hand side and bracket. Even at higher iso which I suggest you avoid...this practice will work well to allow the greatest latitude during post.

Thank you for the advice
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