I was in mid-flight this afternoon when the RC2 screen suddenly switched me back to the home page to alert me to the fact that a new firmware update was available. I thought this was annoying, unnecessary and potentially dangerous so I dismissed it and switched back to Go Fly. Five seconds later the same alert popped up again, and again switched screens so that I couldn't obey the law which requires me to keep my drone in view. So I gave up the flight, brought the drone in and updated the firmware in safety.

What were DJI thinking? Admin alerts lke this should never interrupt flights.

FYI, the screen has ZERO to do with VLOS. VLOS means you can see it with your eyes, not the video feed. Yes, you are correct, update warnings should NEVER occur while flying. This is the first time I have heard of this.

Hi there. Thank you for reaching out and we're sorry for the trouble. It is recommended to perform the firmware update once prompted to avoid any issues when flying. In addition, we will gather this feedback of yours and forward it to our relevant team for attention. Thank you for your understanding and support.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-30 18:44
Technically if you were focused solely on the screen you were already in violation of the regulations.  I think what may have actually happened is your inadvertently touched the edge of the screen & that popped you back to the Go Fly screen.  The available update was just a coincidence.  I have done this many times myself with both the DJI RC & RC2.  Very easy thing to do.

A question for you DB, if you will.  I'm still on the Mini3Pro and Dedicated RC.  At take-off, wifi and bluetooth are switched off automatically and an onscreen advisory is displayed momentarily.
Is this same feature not in the Mini4 too?  If so, then I'm wondering how a message suggesting an update could have appeared during a flight. I'm guessing the OP would have seen it on his homescreen before take-off?

Blériot53 Posted at 10-30 22:35
A question for you DB, if you will.  I'm still on the Mini3Pro and Dedicated RC.  At take-off, wifi and bluetooth are switched off automatically and an onscreen advisory is displayed momentarily.
Is this same feature not in the Mini4 too?  If so, then I'm wondering how a message suggesting an update could have appeared during a flight. I'm guessing the OP would have seen it on his homescreen before take-off?

I was standing inside my LAN signal range and my M4P apparently did not turn off the wi-fi which I had used minutes earlier indoors to check for updates - but none were available so we went out to fly.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-30 18:44
Technically if you were focused solely on the screen you were already in violation of the regulations.  I think what may have actually happened is your inadvertently touched the edge of the screen & that popped you back to the Go Fly screen.  The available update was just a coincidence.  I have done this many times myself with both the DJI RC & RC2.  Very easy thing to do.

No need to imagine doomsday scenarios. I was flying by the (CAA) book and only glanced at the screen to see the alert.

That said, the CAA drone regulations are a tad inconsistent depending on which document you read.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 02:32
What doomsday scenario?  The bottom line is I have both the DJI RC & the RC2.  I fly quite often.  I have never had the RC drop out of the flight screen because of an alert like a firmware update.  I have had it drop out on many occasions because I inadvertently touched the edge of the screen.   Watch the video below to see it happen multiple times during a single flight.

https://youtu.be/jdfGQZfOWFA?si=ToekReHh37txaMgz

I explained in my 9# post what happened in this case.

The doomsday reference was in relation to the unwarranted and irrelevant tutorial on VLOS when this episode was clearly nothing to do with pilot choices.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 02:32
What doomsday scenario?  The bottom line is I have both the DJI RC & the RC2.  I fly quite often.  I have never had the RC drop out of the flight screen because of an alert like a firmware update.  I have had it drop out on many occasions because I inadvertently touched the edge of the screen.   Watch the video below to see it happen multiple times during a single flight.

https://youtu.be/jdfGQZfOWFA?si=ToekReHh37txaMgz

Great video, can’t believe the distance you got. I was watching the antenna the whole way. Yow! Gotta love RTH.

trainee Posted at 10-31 01:44
I was standing inside my LAN signal range and my M4P apparently did not turn off the wi-fi which I had used minutes earlier indoors to check for updates - but none were available so we went out to fly.

It's the act of taking off which switches off WiFi whether you're in range of your LAN or not.

trainee Posted at 10-31 03:22
I explained in my 9# post what happened in this case.

The doomsday reference was in relation to the unwarranted and irrelevant tutorial on VLOS when this episode was clearly nothing to do with pilot choices.

Accepting well-intended criticism, especially when we are new to something, is an attribute that not all of us are blessed with. DB is right-on in his explanation.

FL_Flyer Posted at 10-31 05:21
Accepting well-intended criticism, especially when we are new to something, is an attribute that not all of us are blessed with. DB is right-on in his explanation.

I've been flying an M3P for a year so only new to the M4P. I happily accept criticisms - but first you need to explain what I did wrong, rather than making unsubstantiated assumptions.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 02:25
Unlike the original DJI RC, the RC2 does not turn off Wi-Fi & Bluetooth when the bird lifts off.

Ah. That might be seen as a drawback.

trainee Posted at 10-31 01:44
I was standing inside my LAN signal range and my M4P apparently did not turn off the wi-fi which I had used minutes earlier indoors to check for updates - but none were available so we went out to fly.

That has nothing to do with it. I fly almost every day with full wifi connection to my controller. I have NEVER had a warning after takeoff. Mini 2, Air 2s or Mavic 3 Classic. I have also checked for update while in the air. It will not alert or do anything else while airborne. Dirty Bird is probably correct that it is due to an inadvertant screen touch. I have also done it a time or two.

trainee Posted at 10-31 01:49
No need to imagine doomsday scenarios. I was flying by the (CAA) book and only glanced at the screen to see the alert.

That said, the CAA drone regulations are a tad inconsistent depending on which document you read.

This is why my and Dirty Bird's responses - "again switched screens so that I couldn't obey the law which requires me to keep my drone in view. "
The screen has zero to do with VLOS!

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 06:58
If you watch any of my videos you would know I am a huge stickler for rules.  Especially VLOS!

Maybe you are the only solo drone pilot on the planet who has never looked at his screen mid-flight but I can assure you that the rest of us do - to read alert messages, check battery levels, altitude, wind speed, hit the Return To Home button and even to frame a photograph so that it doesn’t break any laws. So dishing out a lecture for looking at an alert and loss of feed on my screen was nonsensical, inappropriate and virtue-signalling. And if you tell me that you wouldn't have broken VLOS to look too then I doubt anyone would believe you.

You are also presumably not as familiar with the CAA regulations in my country as i am.

Blériot53 Posted at 10-31 04:46
It's the act of taking off which switches off WiFi whether you're in range of your LAN or not.

Clearly not in this case.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 07:05
I personally like it staying on & always reenable it when the DJI RC disables it on liftoff.  I have never noticed any difference in the range whether Wi-Fi & Bluetooth remain on or off.  When flying something that requires my phone I will often be chatting using a Bluetooth earpiece on the same phone I am using to fly!

I'd find that distracting
I have two Android phones, in addition to the DJI RC controller for the Mini3Pro.
One has no SIM card installed and I use that with the Mavic2Zoom.
The other is my everyday smartphone for regular calls and texts.
I generally switch it off when flying the drone  - I need all my fading faculties focussed for that activity

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 06:58
If you watch any of my videos you would know I am a huge stickler for rules.  Especially VLOS!

Your visual acuity has always astounded me DB  
Something equivalent to Superman's X-ray vision?
Just sayin

trainee Posted at 10-31 07:17
Clearly not in this case.

I'm informed by one of the more experienced members of the forum, that this is not a feature of the Min4Pro.  Since it's a feature I find most useful on the Mini3Pro, I'm surprised DJI didn't keep it for the new iteration of the series.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 07:28
Have you ever considered the benefits of Fiberall?  

Fiberall?  
Is that the latest superfast Wifi connection?
Or some kind of breakfast cereal with laxative properties - like Kellogg's All-Bran?
Sorry. I'm just having a silly moment

Mobilehomer Posted at 10-31 06:38
This is why my and Dirty Bird's responses - "again switched screens so that I couldn't obey the law which requires me to keep my drone in view. "
The screen has zero to do with VLOS!

The screen has plenty to do with VLOS if it distracts a pilot from keeping his drone in clear sight.

trainee Posted at 10-31 09:13
The screen has plenty to do with VLOS if it distracts a pilot from keeping his drone in clear sight.

They are completely right.  In VLOS you don't need to look at the screen.

In this case, put a piece of cardboard to hide the screen.  Or buy a drone with a radio that doesn't have a screen, you won't be bothered again.

Dirty Bird Posted at 10-31 06:58
If you watch any of my videos you would know I am a huge stickler for rules.  Especially VLOS!

I did… Smirk!

DJI Paladin Posted at 10-30 19:50
Hi there. Thank you for reaching out and we're sorry for the trouble. It is recommended to perform the firmware update once prompted to avoid any issues when flying. In addition, we will gather this feedback of yours and forward it to our relevant team for attention. Thank you for your understanding and support.

Surely no one is going to run an update mid flight.
That just seems like a bad idea.

But I have also had the screen randomly switch to home during flight, not for a message, probably also clumsy fingers.

And don't take the VLOS comments too seriously. Everyone looks at the screen (to varying degrees) and we all know it.

Sam654 Posted at 10-31 12:37
Surely no one is going to run an update mid flight.
That just seems like a bad idea.

VLOS is serious and does not prohibit looking at your screen.  

VLOS requires the drone to be in direct view in order to have control of its environment to avoid collisions with other aircraft.  And above all to be able to continue to pilot without external help, FPV view, auto-RTH,... in the event of failure of these.

Yes, it's very stupid on the part of DJI if an update request occurs during the flight, but it's a situation that is largely controllable, if the operator understands what VLOS is, and applies it.

LV_Forestry Posted at 10-31 21:50
VLOS is serious and does not prohibit looking at your screen.  

VLOS requires the drone to be in direct view in order to have control of its environment to avoid collisions with other aircraft.  And above all to be able to continue to pilot without external help, FPV view, auto-RTH,... in the event of failure of these.

The UK's official Drone and Model Aircraft Code from the Civil Aviation Authority requires drone pilots to keep their aircraft in constant direct sight and specifically states that looking at any electronic viewing device (such as the RC) doesn't qualify as direct sight.

The regulations go on to say that only an observer/co-pilot can use an electronic screen but that the other co-pilot must maintain an unaided direct view of the aircraft at all times.

So, strictly by the letter of the law in the UK, VLOS does prohibit solo pilots from looking at their screen.

The CAA does use slightly more pragmatic wording in other documents but the DAMAC is the only one that most recreational drone pilots ever see.

trainee Posted at 11-1 00:29
The UK's official Drone and Model Aircraft Code from the Civil Aviation Authority requires drone pilots to keep their aircraft in constant direct sight and specifically states that looking at any electronic viewing device (such as the RC) doesn't qualify as direct sight.

The regulations go on to say that only an observer/co-pilot can use an electronic screen but that the other co-pilot must maintain an unaided direct view of the aircraft at all times.

The Highway Code also says that you must keep your eyes on the road at all times.

Do you ever look at your Speedo? Or look at traffic lights? They are not the road, so you just broke the rules!

The VLOS rules say that you must BE ABLE to view the drone directly without aids such as binoxlxulars or electronic viewing devices (the drone camera and RC). They do not say that you must never look away from the drone.

If you hear an approaching helicopter, for example,nwhich may well be below 120m, do you think the rules prevent you from looking around to see where it is approaching from and what direction it is travelling in? That would be counter to safe flight.

So, no, the rules do not forbid you from looking away but you must be able to look back and find the drone quicky. The CAA have tried to clarify this recently, but sadly made a bit of a hash of it and added more confusion in their interpretation of the ANO.

trainee Posted at 11-1 00:29
The UK's official Drone and Model Aircraft Code from the Civil Aviation Authority requires drone pilots to keep their aircraft in constant direct sight and specifically states that looking at any electronic viewing device (such as the RC) doesn't qualify as direct sight.

The regulations go on to say that only an observer/co-pilot can use an electronic screen but that the other co-pilot must maintain an unaided direct view of the aircraft at all times.

Then why are you complaining about what is happening on your screen.

No Original Thought Posted at 11-1 01:09
The Highway Code also says that you must keep your eyes on the road at all times.

Do you ever look at your Speedo? Or look at traffic lights? They are not the road, so you just broke the rules!

That's all very logical and plain common sense but it isn't what the code says - see https://register-drones.caa.co.u ... ely-and-responsibly. The rule states that solo pilots must "always" keep their drone in direct sight. "Always" is one of those words you can't argue with and it effectively means that all solo drone flights in the UK are done illegally.

Having dutifully read all the CAA drone regulations and guidance, I can attest to the fact that the regulator doesn't ever refer to the ability, legitimacy or advisability of a solo pilot looking at his RC screen (other than to ban it unless using a co-pilot).

This is a nonsense of course but it's the letter of the law as it stands. Hopefully, the CAA will introduce some new pragmatic/real-world rules at the next update.

Ironically, the EU drone regs are much more pragmatic and I have wasted a couple of minutes of my life by asking the CAA to adopt the EASA REGULATION (EU) 2019/947 language in the UK. EASA requires pilots only to "maintain thorough visual scan of the airspace that surrounds the UA to avoid any risk of collision”.

When Sir Humphrey Appleby drafts rules and regulations does anyone expect straight talk?

Sean-bumble-bee Posted at 11-1 04:44
When Sir Humphrey Appleby drafts rules and regulations does anyone expect straight talk?

I hope so because as it stands a vexatious neighbour could legitimately call the cops if I am seen to be glancing at my screen.

trainee Posted at 11-1 05:03
I hope so because as it stands a vexatious neighbour could legitimately call the cops if I am seen to be glancing at my screen.

Taking your 'quotations' to be correct ......... thinking about it, from a law maker's point of view
"must "always" keep their drone in direct sight."
makes more sense as a law since it is cut and dried, you either comply with it or you don't, there's no middle ground and no wiggle room.

EASA's "maintain thorough visual scan of the airspace that surrounds the UA to avoid any risk of collision”. Is an open door for solicitors/barristers to make money since they can argue "but xyz only glanced at the controller".

LV_Forestry Posted at 10-31 21:50
VLOS is serious and does not prohibit looking at your screen.  

VLOS requires the drone to be in direct view in order to have control of its environment to avoid collisions with other aircraft.  And above all to be able to continue to pilot without external help, FPV view, auto-RTH,... in the event of failure of these.

OK, there seems to be more crossed wires here.
I have done the CAA test etc, and know about VLOS. I wasn't saying VLOS should not be taken seriously, but that Dirty Bird's comments about it shouldn't be taken too seriously.
I only mention it becuse those comments didn't appear to be taken in the spirt they were intended and seemed to be causing some undue friction, that's all.

But if we are having a grown up discussion about VLOS, specifically the UK CAA rules, here is my take on it.
"Always keep your drone or model aircraft in direct sight and make sure you have a full view of the surrounding airspace"
I do interpret this differently.
Not as "Never take your eyes off the drone", but as "Always have it in a place where you are able see it".
As in, don't go behind that tree, or building, or so far away your eyes can't see it. See the illustration in that section.
The notion of never taking your eyes off it is ludicrous and even unsafe for a number of reasons.
If you hear an aircraft, you are going to scan the sky to see where it is, where it's heading and how high. The CAA wants you to do that so you can avoid when necessary.
The RC has all your controls and safety info. Battery status, warning messages and altitiude OGL, ignoring this stuff is dangerous. How do know you are a legal height without looking? Many of the RC controls are touch screen only, not tactile. Unless you are extremely familiar with the UI, you need to look at what you are pressing.
Plus I need to blink occasionally while constantly staring at a dot in the sky.

"and specifically states that looking at any electronic viewing device (such as the RC) doesn't qualify as direct sight."
The actual wording is:-
"You must be able to see it without using:
binoculars
a telephoto lens
electronic viewing equipment, such as a smart phone, tablet or video goggles"
It does not prohibit the use of these items. It means you must not be reliant on them the see the drone.
Never looking at the RC is impractical, unsafe and does not violate VLOS rule.

trainee Posted at 11-1 02:13
That's all very logical and plain common sense but it isn't what the code says - see https://register-drones.caa.co.uk/drone-code/flying-safely-and-responsibly. The rule states that solo pilots must "always" keep their drone in direct sight. "Always" is one of those words you can't argue with and it effectively means that all solo drone flights in the UK are done illegally.

Having dutifully read all the CAA drone regulations and guidance, I can attest to the fact that the regulator doesn't ever refer to the ability, legitimacy or advisability of a solo pilot looking at his RC screen (other than to ban it unless using a co-pilot).

Something being kept in direct line of sight DOES NOT mean that you have to be looking at it all of the time.

It simply means that you must be able to look at at it directly all of the time.

No Original Thought Posted at 11-1 15:22
Something being kept in direct line of sight DOES NOT mean that you have to be looking at it all of the time.

It simply means that you must be able to look at at it directly all of the time.

That's a pragmatic and convenient interpretation of the law but it isn't what the law states. The exact wording of the Code is "Always keep your drone or model aircraft in direct sight" without any qualification or condition. It doesn't say "Always be able to keep your drone in direct sight". So lawyers, who get rich on semantics, would find it quite easy to prosecute a pilot for glancing at his RC, if ever such a ridiculous charge were made (which it certainly wouldn't be by the CAA who declare in CAP 722 that "Due to its low risk nature, the Open category is not subject to any direct regulatory oversight by the CAA but is instead subject to direct enforcement by the police or any other appropriate enforcement authority.")

But to stop pedants like me jumping on this and possibly using the letter of the law vexatiously, I have appealed to the CAA to change the wording of the Code to specifically allow for the prudent and occasional diversion of the pilot's eyes from his drone to his RC screen.

However, I'm not sure that any regulator would approve of a pilot being suddenly kicked out of his live control screen into the home screen whether caused by an accidental touch on the live screen or by an insistent alert to update firmware. So I hope that DJI will update the firmware to prevent either eventuality.

Sam654 Posted at 10-31 12:37
Surely no one is going to run an update mid flight.
That just seems like a bad idea.

Thank you for your response, Sam. We recommend doing the firmware update when your drone is stationary or placed on a level surface. Once you receive the prompt message, please land your aircraft first and update the firmware then return to flying, it is not recommended to update the firmware in mid-flight. Thank you for your understanding.

DJI Paladin Posted at 11-2 01:24
Thank you for your response, Sam. We recommend doing the firmware update when your drone is stationary or placed on a level surface. Once you receive the prompt message, please land your aircraft first and update the firmware then return to flying, it is not recommended to update the firmware in mid-flight. Thank you for your understanding.

Presumably the drone would fall to earth if anyone were dumb or inexperienced enough to try updating firmware mid-flight (even if the DJI RC alerts kept insisting on it)? I guess kids would be more susceptible to just following the on-screen advice to update firmware.

Out of interest, when the RC is within wifi range and the drone is not, could the drone's firmware be updated? And every firmware update forces an automatic reboot of the device?

trainee Posted at 11-2 00:02
That's a pragmatic and convenient interpretation of the law but it isn't what the law states. The exact wording of the Code is "Always keep your drone or model aircraft in direct sight" without any qualification or condition. It doesn't say "Always be able to keep your drone in direct sight". So lawyers, who get rich on semantics, would find it quite easy to prosecute a pilot for glancing at his RC, if ever such a ridiculous charge were made (which it certainly wouldn't be by the CAA who declare in CAP 722 that "Due to its low risk nature, the Open category is not subject to any direct regulatory oversight by the CAA but is instead subject to direct enforcement by the police or any other appropriate enforcement authority.")

But to stop pedants like me jumping on this and possibly using the letter of the law vexatiously, I have appealed to the CAA to change the wording of the Code to specifically allow for the prudent and occasional diversion of the pilot's eyes from his drone to his RC screen.

Sam654 has got it spot on above.

My interpretation is not just a conventient interpretation. "Line of sight" is very well defined and doesn't even need someone with eyes to be present! Receivers often need line of sight with transmitters in order to work. Whether the receiver is actually receiving or the transmitter is actually transmitting does not change the fact that they have line of sight.

VLOS extends that definition by adding the word "Visual" to tighten the definition to exclude the use of any aids (other than regular spectacles) to achieve the line of sight. And that part is exactly as Sam 654 explains it.

Look, I am the first to be over-cautious, but go look up line of sight. It DOES NOT mean that you cannot look away.

As I said, the CAA clarified this a few months ago. I can't quote the guy exactly but you can look up the Geeksvana interview on YouTube. The CAA guy explained that VLOS means what I said - You must be able to see the drone without any aids. That means not relying on the RC display. He even said if you look away from teh drone to look at the RC then you must be able to quickly relocate the drone in the sky. (quickly obviously being a subjective term here that could be argued.

Sadly he then went on to say that the requirement to be see the drone also includes being able to see its orientation without having to perform any manouvre to determine orientation. That is not part of the law as stated in the ANO and he was clearly over-stepping at this point (Geeksvana did a follow up that explained this with reference to the ANO specifically). And it's a good job that is not the law as most drones are pretty much symetrical and so determining orientation from a couple of dozen metres away can be tricky enough!

Bottom line, though, you can look at your RC within the VLOS law, but you must not be relying on the RC for position information - you must BE ABLE to see it unaided.

(Oh, and that means that passing behind a tree or building, even momentarily, DOES technically break the law. If you check your RC while you pass behind a tree then you could be determined to be relying on the RC while is was out of VLOS even though the drone was close by!)

No Original Thought Posted at 11-2 08:53
Sam654 has got it spot on above.

My interpretation is not just a conventient interpretation. "Line of sight" is very well defined and doesn't even need someone with eyes to be present! Receivers often need line of sight with transmitters in order to work. Whether the receiver is actually receiving or the transmitter is actually transmitting does not change the fact that they have line of sight.

Trouble is the law doesn't say we must keep the drone in "line" of sight.

trainee Posted at 11-2 14:42
Trouble is the law doesn't say we must keep the drone in "line" of sight.

VLOS = Visual Line of Sight.