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US laws prohibiting arm UAS?
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garrylane2
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Im chairing a seminar for lawyers in December on the topic of UAS law. In response to the stories of the CT college student who armed a drone with a handgun and the video of the young Russian man who armed one with a sub machine gun and with explosives, I wanted to explain at the seminar that in the U.S. that it is illegal to arm a civilian aircraft (which would include a UAS). Quickly found federal statutes that say one cannot put explosives on a civilian aircraft but can't find a comparable law saying it is illegal to arm a civilian aircraft. Anyone know a U.S. statute or law addressing this? I assume for example that the weapons on warbirds must be removed or disabled? I am familiar with the FAR addressing dropping objects from an aircraft.
2015-9-7
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gregg1r
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US Law doesn't exist as such.

Under Federal law enforced by BATFE, you could make the interpretation that the electronic activation of the trigger makes the weapon being fired a machine gun.

The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

Previous court rulings on electronic triggers have affirmed that they are machine guns.

"I assume for example that the weapons on warbirds must be removed or disabled?" The disablement of araments on aircraft is due to the weapons being classified as machine guns. Same reasoning is used for those as well, more than a single round per pull of the trigger.  Also the electric or pneumatic motor used to advance the round into the chamber.

Hand operated cranking system like the old gattling guns of the devises attatched to trigger guards, hand cranked are OK. Put a motor on it, it's now a machine gun.

2015-9-7
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Cessna172
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Let me explain US law to you.

Laws are made for the LAW ABIDING ONLY.

Any laws pushed through legislation will ensure that while terrorists, criminals and such WILL have armed drones, law abiding citizens will not.

Knee jerk reaction laws tend to give the advantage to criminals every time.
2015-9-7
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BobbyB
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I find it a bit odd (and foolish) that you're instructing attorneys on UAS and aviation law but you come here for legal advice.  Perhaps you'd be better served by using West Law.  Or, maybe even delegate the task to someone that already has the expertise firsthand.
2015-9-7
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garrylane2
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Bobby B I've been an aviation lawyer for 35 years. I asked the question here because I'm part of this forum. I in fact know a great deal about UAS law but like whatever profession you are in , I assume you don't know it all. Your comment was needlessly insult. And I have been researching with computer assisted research but was surprised not to find it. Do you enjoy insulting people?
2015-9-7
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aburkefl
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garrylane2 Posted at 2015-9-7 13:50
Bobby B I've been an aviation lawyer for 35 years. I asked the question here because I'm part of thi ...

A few short weeks ago there was a highly publicized event where a college engineering student wired a semi-automatic handgun to a quad copter. State authorities ruled at that time that no violations were committed. I think the state in question was Colorado.

That same student was later arrested, but authorities were pretty quick to point out that the arrest was a separate issue and had nothing to do with the gun-toting quadcopter.
2015-9-7
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garrylane2
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Gregg. Thank you. That's very helpful.  Cessna 172, I agree with you that having a law about arming drones won't stop terrorists from having them.  We do have the statutes and regs on explosives on planes but those won't stop terrorists either.
2015-9-7
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garrylane2
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ABurkfl thanks. I assume that was the CT graduate student. I'll follow up on that story. Thank you.
2015-9-7
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BobbyB
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garrylane2 Posted at 2015-9-8 01:50
Bobby B I've been an aviation lawyer for 35 years. I asked the question here because I'm part of thi ...

I have no problem insulting your choice of resource for production of a legal treatise as well as your grammar.  Maybe its just my respect for accuracy, but out of the last 5 appellate briefs I've written I can't recall relying on an internet forum to bolster my arguments.  I suppose teaching your colleagues with layman anecdotes my be vogue but I find it laughable.  I'd love to see your citation index in an appeal; perhaps, "some dude on the internet" may convince the court without question.  I'll have to check the ALWD for the proper formatting of "Internet Bullshit".  
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Willie Wonka
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-7 17:31
I have no problem insulting your choice of resource for production of a legal treatise as well as  ...

LOL my laugh of the day ! DJI forum is the last place on EARTH to look for legal quotes and opinions.
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kairkyo161
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you think the video of the russian dude was real? i have some land on the moon id like to sell ya
2015-9-7
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BobbyB
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-8 05:39
LOL my laugh of the day ! DJI forum is the last place on EARTH to look for legal quotes and opinion ...

Apparently, attorneys come here for advice.  I'm sure glad I'm a Assistant French Fry Chef at Burger King; I only come here for the culinary expertise.
2015-9-7
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mfa0007
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-9-7 10:57
US Law doesn't exist as such.

Under Federal law enforced by BATFE, you could make the interpretatio ...

And I thought that, according to BATF, a machine gun was any gun that fired more than one round with a single pull of the trigger.  I vaguely remember an addendum covering the use of (or attaching) electronic circuitry to activate the trigger.. (i.e. This was interesting in dealing with Gatling guns.  You can own one, but you can't put a motor on it.) In either case, this might cover the discussion better :-).
2015-9-7
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garrylane2
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Bobby B and Willie. I was not using an Internet forum to bolster any legal argument. I'm not making a legal argument. I was surprised when I could not find a statute or reg addressing the arming of an aircraft. I anticipate that there are many UAS pilots who, like me, are long time airplane pilots. Since I was unable to find an applicable statute or reg, I thought it would not hurt to ask if anyone on the forum was aware of a reg or statute. If the answer was no, that's fine. And asking someone if they know of a statute or reg is not seeking legal advice nor would I have cited a forum for anything. I seriously doubt that you are an attorney or you wouldn't act so arrogant. I suspect at best you are a paralegal or perhaps a first year law student. Since you clearly had nothing positive or constructive to add, you should have ignored the question.
2015-9-7
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CaveDrone
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garrylane2 Posted at 2015-9-7 19:17
Bobby B and Willie. I was not using an Internet forum to bolster any legal argument. I'm not making  ...

garrylane2,  AMEN...
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CaveDrone
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garrylane2,  amen.....
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BobbyB
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garrylane2 Posted at 2015-9-8 08:17
Bobby B and Willie. I was not using an Internet forum to bolster any legal argument. I'm not making  ...

You seem offended Counselor, you'll be alright...its just a flesh wound.  I guess you could always sue me...I hear Batman Comics issues 404-407 has a great treatise on the Restatement of Torts, 3rd.
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Willie Wonka
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-7 21:00
You seem offended Counselor, you'll be alright...its just a flesh wound.  I guess you could always ...

LOL OMG OMG thats so funny .... and on the other hand like any peacock they like to spread there feathers, and where else but here,  anyways i better quit and hide in a hole where i belong....
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BobbyB
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-8 09:09
LOL OMG OMG thats so funny .... and on the other hand like any peacock they like to spread there f ...

Don't be skeer'd Willie, I'll represent you if he sues you too.  I know a guy who's neighbor has a copy of The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for Dummies.

Truth is he's probably just too cheap to pay someone to do his homework..comes here and wants research done for free.  I'll just bet he's doing that seminar without compensation.     
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Willie Wonka
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-7 22:05
Don't be skeer'd Willie, I'll represent you if he sues you too.  I know a guy who's neighbor has a ...

Yeah probably one of those meetup website groups that offer free seminars that attract god knows who .....
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BobbyB
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-8 10:18
Yeah probably one of those meetup website groups that offer free seminars that attract god knows w ...

Hope its free to attend, at least then they're getting their money's worth.  He plainly admitted he doesn't know the law he's teaching.  Thank God he's a lawyer and not a neurosurgeon.
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Willie Wonka
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-7 23:08
Hope its free to attend, at least then they're getting their money's worth.  He plainly admitted h ...

Will a .50 cal fit on a phantom ? LOL
2015-9-7
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BobbyB
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-8 11:12
Will a .50 cal fit on a phantom ? LOL

Yes, coincidently DJI will be adding Strafing mode in the next Go app update.
2015-9-7
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gregg1r
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-7 23:12
Will a .50 cal fit on a phantom ? LOL

As a matter of fact, it will. It just won't get off the ground or be able to stay airborne if you get 8-10 Phantoms to be able to lift the 50 off the ground.

Then you have that little thing called recoil. The lightest 50 I'm aware of other than the S&W .500 pistol, is based on an AR-15 platform as a single shot. That rifle still weighs close to 18 pounds. Recoil would be in the area of 90 pounds.
2015-9-8
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rodger
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I would refer to the Firearms laws in the individual States. This can get a little tacky in each State. For instance in Rhode Island you need a Carry Permit or be a Law Enforcement Officer. In RI you have to have a Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun in a locked Case while transporting it and it cannot be loaded. Another interesting fact. The Statute states that a "Firearm is anything that can propel a metal Projectile" Legally speaking a BB Gun is a Firearm.

Nothing to do with this issue but, interesting. DUI states that one cannot operate a motor vehicle when your Alcohol level is .08 or more. Now, a Motor Vehicle encompasses a variety of motor driven equipment. You can be arrested for mowing your Lawn with a riding Lawnmower with a BAC (Blood Alcohol Content) over.08

Bear in mind that the General Assembly is largely made up of Attorneys.
2015-9-8
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rodger
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In thinking about the subject, anyone who would want to do such a thing shouldn't be on the Street anyway!
2015-9-8
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Fred1969
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-9-7 11:57
US Law doesn't exist as such.

Under Federal law enforced by BATFE, you could make the interpretatio ...


"The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger."

You are correct this is the definition of a "machine Gun" but adding a device to a gun that pulls the trigger once per activation of said device and then must be initiated again by another manual activation is not a machine gun.  In layman's terms a machine gun is a gun that when the trigger is pulled once it will fire multiple bullets.  The gun the guy mounted on the drone was a semiautomatic firearm.  If he had it set up in a way that one push of the button on the remote started the gun firing more than one shot or it was capable of doing that then this would constitute a machine gun but it was set up to only be capable of firing one shot with each push of the button.
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Willie Wonka
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-9-8 09:26
As a matter of fact, it will. It just won't get off the ground or be able to stay airborne if you  ...

The one i am talking about is the single shot long barrel sniper rifle which is beyond any lifting BUT someone will manage to make it in the news with one on a phantom.
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gregg1r
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Willie Wonka Posted at 2015-9-8 12:42
The one i am talking about is the single shot long barrel sniper rifle which is beyond any lifting ...

Willie, I personally have no use for a 50 BMG. Too much recoil verses other platforms that have much better ballistics. To each his or her own.

There will always be someone that will attempt rigging something together, whether for bragging rights or their Darwin resume.

Never under estimate the power of a fool.

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Willie Wonka
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-9-8 13:04
Willie, I personally have no use for a 50 BMG. Too much recoil verses other platforms that have mu ...

You are absolutely right, fools are the ones that bring down nations.....  god help us all in this election....
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rusty
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-7 16:31
I have no problem insulting your choice of resource for production of a legal treatise as well as  ...

BobbyB if you are going to call a guy out on grammar you should proof read your posts...  
2015-9-12
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vii777
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apache drone mockup.jpg

weaponized....

wouldnt b that hard to fit the working bits fromhttp://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/EBOS_CO2_BB_gun/2042
to one. That platform can more than handle the weight... move the camera to front attach whole thing to gimble, extra servo for triggering.... fun times

2015-9-12
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BobbyB
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rusty Posted at 2015-9-12 17:55
BobbyB if you are going to call a guy out on grammar you should proof read your posts...

Thanks, you've enriched the world.  You should invest in a capital "R".
2015-9-15
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rusty
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-15 09:11
Thanks, you've enriched the world.  You should invest in a capital "R".

LOL as you should use a space... safe flying.
2015-9-22
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arives
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BobbyB Posted at 2015-9-8 06:29
Apparently, attorneys come here for advice.  I'm sure glad I'm a Assistant French Fry Chef at Burg ...

BobbyB - Do you use Corn oil, or Olive Oil?
2015-9-22
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BobbyB
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arives@capecod. Posted at 2015-9-23 09:48
BobbyB - Do you use Corn oil, or Olive Oil?

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