It's perfectly fine to complain about a product that was released without the features that you wanted in it.  That's literally how companies improve.  In my business we specifically ask for complaints in an effort to continuously improve ourselves.  I do agree an entire company should not be bashed or insulted based off one product, but certainly complaints are ok.  The phrase "if you don't like it, don't buy it", is certainly something that DJI, and any company wanting to be succesuful, would not endorse.

method007 Posted at 2015-9-13 13:31
It's perfectly fine to complain about a product that was released without the features that you want ...

Lets hope so.  

The main complaint about the X3 was from the oversharpness/mushy video quality.

I hope the X5 doesnt suffee from the same problem.

I find it odd that DJI don't offer customers any way of downloading a video file and also a DNG file for demo purposes. This is rather absurd. If I'm going to blow £2000 on this kit I want to see what it can do first hand, not from some compressed videos on YouTube. As important for me, is the stills ability too. I don't want to sound like I'm griping, but if DJI cares about it's customers, then I think it's only fair that we give opinions for them to 'take on board.'

Haven't really had a look at this new camera but I would think its about the ccd chip it is larger and the larger the chip the less bleed over from one pixel to another better colour separation  and as the dater rate and compression only one thing to say compress crap you get crap so the better the dater you have to compress the better the results will be ,and not so much correction you will be needing to do.but wether it worth that extra would depend on what you are looking for

I flew today at 8900' to an altitude of 84m, Inspire 1.  This was on a TB48 charged to 100% showing 5700mAh capacity and flown down to 15%.  The flight time was 13min 13sec.  The punch outs at that altitude were fine.  Certainly better than my P3P that I have flown there.  I did shoot some pictures and video.  It was useless because of the smoke from the fires south of us.  The Tahoe and Reno basins are completely full and the sky a murky grey with no contrast.  I head for the coast tomorrow to test at sea level on the TB48.  Hopefully the sky will be clear and the weather cooperates.  If so I will try and post some RAW photos.  I checked for artifacts and saw none.

Burlingtonfilms Posted at 2015-9-14 04:14
I agree with you jim but there is still no middle ground in terms of codec.  Either raw, which is  ...

I'll say it again, if you want a minimum compromise result then get the X5R.  There are many that are happy with the X3 but just want more control.   I understand that you (and I) are not among them, but they do exist.

rockliffe@btcon Posted at 2015-9-14 01:25
Sure, a little like saying you're disappointed that a particular car doesn't perform as it should  ...

As a hobbyist I don't require either the X5 or X5R, the X3 is great compared to GoPros and the lot.

But as I said in the post above, pros won't balk at the price of an X5R and there will be plenty who are perfectly happy with the X3 but want more control.  For them the medium size is good.

Do I want 150Mb/s?  Of course, but it's not there.  Maybe they have maxed out the hardware and the next step is the X5R.    To assume they just didn't bother is a bit odd.

jimhare Posted at 2015-9-14 01:08
I'll say it again, if you want a minimum compromise result then get the X5R.  There are many that  ...

Sad shame.  

I was so excited for the X5 but im pretty sure it will suffer from oversharpened/muddy looking footage again.

I'll say it again, if you want a minimum compromise result then get the X5R.

I am a video pro, and both myself and my colleague question the capabilities vs price. We want high quality, but we really do not need Raw. There seems to be this idea that pros will just go out and buy the best. No, this isn't true. We want ROI, and we like to invest in the best quality at a given price point. DJI have missed a very important market sector by not enabling a much higher bitrate and 422 on the X5. 99% of video pros do not need Raw recording ability, and most do not want to have to deal with the data wrangling associated with that type of recording.

Personally I would have preferred one camera to be available that records Prores with a more reasonable price point and much easier to find storage media for.

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-14 15:50
I am a video pro, and both myself and my colleague question the capabilities vs price. We want high ...

Good and logical reply. Sure, if you have a constant stream of hi end TV productions to shoot, that's fine. But for us, shooting corporates, and local TV material, who are already pleased with the results from the X3, I'm sure the X5 will establish a new standard in video footage. When in business, you spend money on the kit that will provide the customer with a good product without over investment, otherwise, you can end up investing in kit just because it's perceived as being the best, just for the hell of it!

Yes, like others here, I am very disappointed with the bit rate, but am I likely to invest in the X5R, no. I can't justify the extra cost. The other thing is the post production involved with editing 4K Raw footage... that would blow my mind in the way of computing resources.

Tahoe_Ed Posted at 2015-9-14 01:58
I flew today at 8900' to an altitude of 84m, Inspire 1.  This was on a TB48 charged to 100% showing  ...

Ed, is there any chance you could post a couple of DNG files that we could download?

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-15 00:50
I am a video pro, and both myself and my colleague question the capabilities vs price. We want high ...

What you need to understand is that RAW recording is more affordable than what you are suggesting.   It's much easier to just capture the sensor data then to process into ProRes.

You shouldn't shy away from the RAW workflow, it has nothing to do with "needing it" but rather giving you ultimate control is just a byproduct.

As soon as DJI broke away from the 60Mb/S realm this was probably the first stop.

If I am interpreting your post correctly you are saying you think they overshot the need and could have brought out a ProRes unit for less than RAW.   My opinion is the opposite, that this would have made it even more expensive and by doing so give you less quality.  

I for one love the RAW workflow and do believe it's the most cost effective solution.
RED cameras did this 8 years ago and were able to put a camera on the market for $17,500 when all others cost over $100k.  It was because of RAW recording.

rockliffe@btcon Posted at 2015-9-12 01:36
Hi, can you expand on this please. How does the X5 60Mbps become better than the X3 60Mbps?

X5 is better in the low noise and natural details.
The encoder of X3 spends a lot of bits on the noises and artificial details coming from a 1/2.3 sensor.
You can take photo both by DNG, then compare the original data without any denoising and sharpening.

RDTeam43 Posted at 2015-9-15 11:39
X5 is better in the low noise and natural details.
The encoder of X3 spends a lot of bits on the n ...

Makes sense.  Start with a better image and the compression has less work to do!

I think that one important reason not to have better bitrate is that with microSd up to 64g, there is not recording capacity to work with. Then you will need the extra disk, then the price goes up.

RDTeam43 Posted at 2015-9-15 02:39
X5 is better in the low noise and natural details.
The encoder of X3 spends a lot of bits on the n ...

Thanks for the reply, appreciated.

jimhare Posted at 2015-9-14 21:43
What you need to understand is that RAW recording is more affordable than what you are suggesting.  ...

Jim, I've been producing professional video for over 20 years. I know very well the benefit and drawbacks to a Raw workflow, and the fact is that it simply is not needed for the vast majority of work, and the data wrangling makes it a right royal pain in the backside. Time I have to spend transcoding to a more usable format is time that I might not get paid for. Certainly most clients will not want to pay for this in the majority of cases, but they will want higher quality than the meagre 60Mbps recording can provide.

I understand what you are saying about Prores, but that is an example only. I disagree that it would have been more expensive then the 5R (see the Blackmagic cameras as one example) AvidDnX, XAVC, even a much higher bitrate High Profile H264 would have been better. If you have the storage requirements and the clients who are prepared to pay for a Raw workflow, then great. But that doesn't apply to most other production outfits. Log Profile 10-bit 422 gives me as much control as I need in the vast majority of circumstances.
If I'm going to be messing around with Raw just to get something decent, then I want to be paid for that time faffing around. I'm by no means alone on this. I have Raw capabilty with my BMD cameras. I never use it because there simply isn't any tangible benefit to me doing so unless my client demands the absolute best, which most do not.

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-15 07:02
Jim, I've been producing professional video for over 20 years. I know very well the benefit and dr ...

Simon i feel exactly the same.  10 bit 422 is a little optimistic though.  I would have thought the bare minium for this new cam would have been 4K at 8bit, 100/mbs.

It will be interesting to see where the Blackmagic Micro camera fits in with DJI products down the road.  It has all the flavors of 10bit prores and RAW recording to SD cards for $1k.

method007 Posted at 2015-9-13 04:10
You have footage from the X5?  Awesome! Can you please upload and link to a raw video that you too ...

For me to, It makes no sense if the bitrate stays on 60 mbs
Its too much compression and is not in balance with the much better and bigger sensor and lens.  

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-15 12:02
Jim, I've been producing professional video for over 20 years. I know very well the benefit and dra ...

I absolutely agree Simon. There seems to be no compromise on the bitrate issue as far as DJI are concerned. It's either a low bitrate or a high end RAW capability with no middle ground.

unfortunately, it isn't possible to achieve a higher bitrate, cause the SD-Card is the limitation. Why do you think it needs an SSD for 4K Raw?  Unless they build better SD-Cards there is no way of increasing the Bitrate...

Fiete1989 Posted at 2015-9-15 21:09
unfortunately, it isn't possible to achieve a higher bitrate, cause the SD-Card is the limitation. W ...

Not sure that is true. The X5 states a rate of 60mbps where as current micro SD cards can handle up to 60MBs

Samsung PRO micro SD 90MB/s

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-15 21:02
Jim, I've been producing professional video for over 20 years. I know very well the benefit and dra ...

Simon, I've been producing Feature Films, TV and Professional Video for over 30 years and I disagree.

The most cost effective way to build a camera is to have a sensor, collect the sensor data, write it to a SSD and deal with it in post.   I don't think anyone is going to disprove this.

I don't want to be in the field with a milion desicions to make and ALSO have to deal with all thing being baked into my image.  Much rather do that in post where those decisions belong.

We don't have to agree on this.   I use the RAW workflow and it's fantastic.  

jimhare Posted at 2015-9-16 01:42
Simon, I've been producing Feature Films, TV and Professional Video for over 30 years and I disagr ...

Hi jim, I don't think anyone is arguing with your opinions about shooting RAW. Anyone who is involved in  professional film or video work understands the enormous benefits from a quality point of view. But it isn't just about quality, it's also about balance. Balancing cost and efficiency of a project with the budget expectations of a client. It's rediculous to expect a local, small production company to pay and expect such a high end product shot with a Red Epic when they are shooting something for the local golf club! Likewise, you wouldn't shoot a Star Wars feature, with a camera delivering an Mp4 file! It's about balancing expectations with costs. I don't think it's such an easy thing to say, if you don't like the 60Mps bitrate then get the X5R. It seems to be going from one extreme to another without any middle ground in the way of compression between the two cameras.

rockliffe@btcon Posted at 2015-9-16 09:05
Hi jim, I don't think anyone is arguing with your opinions about shooting RAW. Anyone who is invol ...

I totally agree with Rockliffe.

I agree with Rockliffe too, no middle ground, and worse performance than the GH4 that alot of us are using. Thats why Im looking at the Yuneec H920 hexacopter with the CG04 gimbal/camera option, which is effectively a gh4 (100Mbs) in an aerial friendly form factor. If Yuneec can do it, why not DJI?

The bottom line, sadly, is that DJI have really missed a massive opportunity here. They've just relased a MFT camera, the first of it's kind unique for aerial work, and it produces the same bitrate as a GoPro????

Hi Tahoe_Ed   
Did you upload some of the RAW photos you mentioned that you were hoping too?
Thanks Ian

FWIW, I agree that DJI have missed the point and simply haven't listened to all the posts about the poor quality X3 encoding. As a professional running a video production business, I have RAW capability too with various cameras including Sony FS700 and FS7 with an Odyssey 7Q. I rarely use RAW as it IS a bigger pain and more time consuming to use than XAVC-I in 422 10bit for instance. Of course it's visibly (marginally) better than XAVC-I but most people couldn't tell the difference and XAVC-I is great for grading.

I would really liked to have seen the X5 basic model recording 10bit 422 in something like 100Mbps+ ProRes or something else similar. Surely that's not difficult to achieve? I wonder if generated heat is an issue in a small package though? The X5R is going to be a stupid price for this level of aircraft.

rockliffe@btcon Posted at 2015-9-16 05:42
The bottom line, sadly, is that DJI have really missed a massive opportunity here. They've just rela ...

My thoughts exactly.

The main complaint about the X3 was the low bit rate and oversharpened mushy footage.  Now its in the new $2200 camera?  It almost feels like DJI is playing a joke on us.

Fiete1989 Posted at 2015-9-15 15:09
unfortunately, it isn't possible to achieve a higher bitrate, cause the SD-Card is the limitation. W ...

That not true, I have an A7RII camera with a bitrate of (4K) 100 mbs and still sd inside

jimhare Posted at 2015-9-16 01:42
Simon, I've been producing Feature Films, TV and Professional Video for over 30 years and I disagr ...

Jim, in the feature film business they can afford the time to deal with Raw. For most corporates this is not the case at all. You are speaking from a different paradigm. Nobody would argue that the highest quality comes from raw recording. But what you aren't understanding is the extra resources and time required for a small production company to have to deal with when using a raw workflow. Likewise we don't want to be using highly compressed 60Mbps MP4 recordings either!

Well, I made a decision today... I'm not buying into the X5. I am extremely disappoionted. Reason, I still see the awful compression going on in some of the scenes that I've witnessed with the release footage. Sure, there is an overall improvement, but not enough in my opinion.   The bitrate has always been the issue I have had with the X3 and if DJI had released nothing else other than a higher bitrate camera, then I would have been happy to part with some good cash!

rockliffe@btcon Posted at 2015-9-16 12:35
Well, I made a decision today... I'm not buying into the X5. I am extremely disappoionted. Reason, I ...

I saw it too but also wondering how much is from youtube.

They could of released the X3 with broadcast bit rates, call it the X3+ for like $500, and it would have been awesome.

SimonMW Posted at 2015-9-16 23:45
Jim, in the feature film business they can afford the time to deal with Raw. For most corporates t ...

Yes, I know that Simon, I work on plenty of small stuff as well and still use the RAW workflow.   

When I started using the RAW workflow 7 years ago it was much harder, and required specialized equipment.  These days it's really easy.

A new iMac and a large drive are all you need to use RAW in real time so there aren't really any reasons to avoid it anymore.

That's all I use to edit 5K Red Epic footage and it eats it up.   X5R footage would be a breeze.

$2,500 for a new system shouldn't be a barrier for any professional.

This is why I don't agree that RAW is difficult to work with or only reserved for high end productions.

Burlingtonfilms Posted at 2015-9-16 14:25
I saw it too but also wondering how much is from youtube.

They could of released the X3 with broa ...

Yea I wouldn't use YouTube to make a judgement.  Hopefully Tahoe Ed will upload some unedited X5 video and pics for us.

method007 Posted at 2015-9-16 19:42
Yea I wouldn't use YouTube to make a judgement.  Hopefully Tahoe Ed will upload some unedited X5 v ...

Yeah lets hope.

DJI-Dave mentioned in another thread about the higher ups being aware now about the compression issue.  Now time will tell or whether or not DJI will fix this problem.  The flickering issue and oversharpened/muddy looking footage of the X3 was a barrier for higher end clients.  If the X5 doesn't suffer from the same problems it will be a welcome upgrade.

Does anyone know whether the bitrate can be increased via a firmware update or is it also limited by hardware?

I think this discussion has gone full circle!

At the end of the day it comes down to something pretty simple/fundamental......

DJI understand mutirotors - nobody can argue with that.

They do not understand cameras!

If they did - the X5 would not have the spec/price it has.  

There is no doubt still images will be improved over the X3, but for those who understand, color space, codecs, bitrates, GOP structures, debayering, intra frame v Long GOP etc, etc the X5 at UHD 60mbps simply doesn't hit the mark.

However.... we ALL NEED TO SEE untouched footage straight out of the X5 (and not compressed on YouTube/Vimeo) before an educated desicion is made to excersise the credit card!