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epicaerialbd
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I really want to know if the CODEC in the regular X5 has been improved as it still records at the same 60Mbps max in 4K. This is the biggest weakness of the X3 and the CODEC does a very poor job.
So for me, the X5 upgrade is pretty pointless and expensive unless the CODEC has been significantly improved. I hope it has but I'm skeptical.
Hope someone will unswer the question and help me out.
Thanks
2015-9-11
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tim foster
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Same question larger camera sensor basically will  we see better overall quality from the X.3 to X.5 standard??
2015-9-11
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dopeytree
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I think it will have been improved a lot. Plus it looks to have amazing low light capability. I do wish it recorded at 100Mbps though. But we need more sample footage.
2015-9-11
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Pgale
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epicaerialbd - you took my post on FaceBook and posted it here. I'll be charging you £128.65 for the use of my words! ;)
2015-9-11
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art
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according to the spec sheet, it's still a 60Mb recording.
2015-9-11
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jimhare
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For anyone serious they will go straight to the X5R and shoot in RAW at 1.6Gb/s.   Will be awesome!   Other than that my guess is you will have an improved and more interesting picture because of the larger sensor but still have the artifact issue.
2015-9-11
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AegisFC
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Have they not listed the X5R?  I only see one X5 in the DJI store page.
2015-9-11
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AegisFC
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Thanks Paul
2015-9-11
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houston
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Another advantage to the X5 is the higher ISO. Another serious flaw in the X3 as starting at 200 the noise is bad. I havent seen any test yest but hopfully with the higher range of ISO available the X5 will not show noticeable noise for at least a few stops up from native.

Houston
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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I think jumping from the x5 to the x5r will be a matter of what format you want to ultimately finish on. To be honest, I think most work today will be finished and published online. If you were going to be shooting for a commercial, film, or higher end project that may go to a bigger screen.... then that's where the X5R will be key.

x5 over the x3 will be an upgrade, but still will have limitations.
x5 will still be limited by the 60mbps codec, yet even more importantly its still limited to 8 bit.
"Both cameras can capture MP4 or MOV video and JPEG and DNG raw photos to a microSD card. Maximum bit depth when recording to a microSD card is 8 bit with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling; the X5R's in raw is 10 bit with 4:4:4." -cnet article on new x5 series cameras Cnet link

8bit will severely limit your ability to get a proper color graded image in post. x5 gives the user true manual control (over the x3) of what you want to capture, x5r gives you the professional tools and codecs to manipulate those captured images in post.
2015-9-11
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keenraven
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The larger sensor should give better low light performance, but I can't believe they kept the 60mbps compression. That was already the Achilles heel of the X3, why the heck didn't they increase it?
2015-9-11
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keenraven
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY Posted at 2015-9-11 14:07
I think jumping from the x5 to the x5r will be a matter of what format you want to ultimately finish ...

I'm not going to trust a quadcopter to carry a $5,000 camera like the X5R. Theres no redundancy- a prop, esc, or motor goes, and you lose a huge investment. We put that kind of payload on an S1000, because 8 rotors means a whole lot less risk. I don't get what DJI is trying to do here. They handicapped the X5 with that bitrate, and they want us to trust a quad rotor with an extremely expensive camera.
2015-9-11
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SimplePanda
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PaulKerry Posted at 2015-9-11 09:48
X5R isn't available for another six months or so from what I've read.

Paul..

Someone told me Q4 2015 today.
2015-9-11
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SimplePanda
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY Posted at 2015-9-11 14:07
I think jumping from the x5 to the x5r will be a matter of what format you want to ultimately finish ...

The other major advantage to CinemaDNG is the ability to re-capture crushed highlights in many cases. Resolve and BMD cameras are unbelievably good at this and for aerial applications, where random light flashes from unexpectedly reflective ground surfaces are numerous, this will be very helpful.

X5R will be mine as soon as DJI will take my money for it. Only bummer is given the 3 months+ delay (and I'm hoping the X5R doesn't end up like the Inspire handheld mount) I have a near-term projects that will have to continue to use rented gear for aerials... was hoping when I saw the X5R video I could in-house some stuff.
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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keenraven Posted at 2015-9-11 11:17
I'm not going to trust a quadcopter to carry a $5,000 camera like the X5R. Theres no redundancy- a ...

I completely understand. I'm cautious with my inspire as it is, the camera is the most exposed part when flying, but replacing a $550 X3 is a lot easier than replacing a $5000+ X5R if you have a mishap.

At the least I would have a lot more spotters when flying around with that in the air...
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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SimplePanda Posted at 2015-9-11 11:29
The other major advantage to CinemaDNG is the ability to re-capture crushed highlights in many cas ...

CinemaDNG is great, but its a bloated codec. File sizes will be ridiculous. Which is why it looks like the X5R will come with a 512Gb HD.  Prepare to have a lot more HD space to store all that aerial footage

Which i think is important to note, the $ increase over the X5. The X5 comes with the camera with cinemaDNG, the mount and harddrive(essentially an external 4k recorder), and the cinelight software (which looks like it's mac compatible only at the moment). So you really do get a lot more with the X5r over the X5.
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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(X5R* comes with... ) not X5.
2015-9-11
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SimplePanda
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY Posted at 2015-9-11 16:55
CinemaDNG is great, but its a bloated codec. File sizes will be ridiculous. Which is why it looks  ...

I think it's safe to assume that the kind of people willing to pay for an X5R know what CinemaDNG is, know that it's not actually a codec, know how much storage capacity it demands, and know why they want it rather than a lesser system recording in H.264.

Also the 512GB unit for the X5R isn't a recorder at all - it's just an SSD on a proprietary interface, presumably for transfer speed assurances. Why DJI opted for their own solution over something like CFast 2.0 is for them to explain, but their approach is really no different than something like REDMAG, which is just a certified and proprietary SSD.


This does beg the question though - how do we get data off of ther proprietary SSD? How do I get more SSD's? If I have to spend multple mags on location do I need to have someone offloading footage between flights? Not fun.
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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Well you're right, I don't want to spread misinformation. CinemaDNG isn't a codec. It's an uncompressed RAW lossless file format.
2015-9-11
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Burlingtonfilms
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Is anyone from DJI reading this post?  If so, get rid of the over compressed 60/mbs 4K codec for the X5.  Give us something better PLEASE
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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I may be wrong, but since we know little about the X5R, I was just under the impression that the camera itself is not much different from the X5, and having the proprietary interface and SSD as you mention is what will allow you to actually capture footage in cinemaDNG. Extra SSD's will be a hidden costs to operating this already expensive system.
2015-9-11
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY
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DJI x3 x5 X5R comparison
2015-9-11
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rsghowellnj
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jimhare Posted at 2015-9-11 19:55
For anyone serious they will go straight to the X5R and shoot in RAW at 1.6Gb/s.   Will be awesome!  ...

Any speculation on the price of the X5R?
2015-9-11
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SimplePanda
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY Posted at 2015-9-11 19:22
I may be wrong, but since we know little about the X5R, I was just under the impression that the cam ...

There is a major practical difference between what an external recorder does and what CinemaDNG provides. One captures uncompressed video and stores it. The other is RAW sensor data storage. Very, very different animals.

An external recorder like an Atomos Shogun / Ninja takes the uncompressed video stream from the camera and encodes and stores it (Atomos uses ProRes or DNxHD for this). It's a great solution and a major improvement over highly lossy AVC that DJI currently uses but the issue with this is that to get an uncompressed video stream, certain things (the biggest of which are ISO,  white balance, post-capture sharpening, and saturation) have to be baked into the signal by the camera system before they're sent to the recorder. This severely limits (compared to RAW) what you can do in post as your starting point already has a lot of imaging decisions made and pre-applied to the captured data stream.

By comparison, A RAW capture system takes data directly from the sensor and stores it. No YUV to RGB, no ISO push or pull, no white space application, no sharpening, etc. It's just raw sensor data and the metadata from the camera system that defines the capture state at the time. You can then use something like Resolve or Adobe Camera Raw to compute your final image later, raising or lower the ISO and changing the white balance non-destructively to taste. Every decision that the camera would have made and baked into the image if you were using an external recorder is just a bit of suggested metadata that your RAW processing application can access and can freely ignore if you want it to.

Long story short, RAW capture isn't (just) about getting rid of compression - it's about getting rid of pre-made and baked in imaging decisions and allowing you to defer those to the post production suite.

This is why the Atomos recorders don't do CinemaDNG capture and just do ProRes / DNxHD: there's no point. Without sensor access, storing in DNG is almost always pointless. You might as well use high bandwidth ProRes or some other intermediate format.

Unless DJI is pulling a major marketing scam here (and I don't think they are), the X5R has to be a very different camera processor than the X5 to deliver what they're advertising.

2015-9-11
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jimhare
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Mkell_CA_SF.BAY Posted at 2015-9-12 06:49
I completely understand. I'm cautious with my inspire as it is, the camera is the most exposed par ...

If the camera does what it's supposed to then this is small change.   The Inspire 1 with X5R would replace $12,000 rig and be sooooo much easier to get off the ground.   

Remember, pros are used to paying $15,000 - $60,000 for just a camera.   This one will replace the GH4, which admittedly is about $2k with lenses but then you need a $10,000 craft to get it off the ground.

Game Changer!

2015-9-11
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Burlingtonfilms
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The footage will look better because of a better camera but it could look much much better with compression at a higher bit rate and color space.
2015-9-12
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HFI
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I wish I was more excited about the X5. I would love an upgraded camera which the X5 is but to shell out over $2k on something that is still not ticking all the boxes (IE the codec) is something I cannot stomach.

I hope DJI does not follow Apples lead to much by deliberately crippling the first of the product line and then delivering the goods over a number of years in the hope of selling more products. 2015 X5 with 60mbs codec for $2k , 2016 X5 plus with 100mbs codec for another $2k, 2017 X7...

Dishing out over $2k on a camera that could potentially drop out of the sky is no joke.
2015-9-12
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Burlingtonfilms
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HFI Posted at 2015-9-12 16:12
I wish I was more excited about the X5. I would love an upgraded camera which the X5 is but to shell ...

Same thoughts exactly.

I wish someone from DJI would explain why they would not add a better compression codec to this amazing new camera.
2015-9-12
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Burlingtonfilms
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dopeytree Posted at 2015-9-11 06:35
I think it will have been improved a lot. Plus it looks to have amazing low light capability. I do w ...

Straight out of the camera footage would be nice.
2015-9-13
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SimplePanda
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HFI Posted at 2015-9-12 10:12
I wish I was more excited about the X5. I would love an upgraded camera which the X5 is but to shell ...

"I hope DJI does not follow Apples lead to much by deliberately crippling the first of the product line and then delivering the goods over a number of years in the hope of selling more products. 2015 X5 with 60mbs codec for $2k , 2016 X5 plus with 100mbs codec for another $2k, 2017 X7..."

You describe an Apple practice that just doesn't happen... but I digress.

I think the X5R looks like it could maybe be a nice platform and pending some ungraded, unedited RAW video being released for evaluation and some questions getting answered re: pipeline issues (D-Log and RAW development) I'm probably going to order a unit. Cost isn't the issue... value is. $5k for a 4k, RAW shooting platform optimized for aerial isn't bad at all.

The X5 though? I can't figure it out.  I'd pay maybe $799 (without a lens) for what they're offering in the X5 platform.

Conversely, if they put XAVC or ProRes (basically I'm looking for 10-bit 4:2:2 with reasonable compression levels) on the X5 I'd happily pay even more than $1400 for it.

Basically, the X5 checks no boxes for me. Putting better glass and sensor tech on an X3 doesn't fix the actual problems with the X3... you're still going to have under sampled, low depth video with way too much compression.

Oh, and 16MP stills. I guess if you look at the X5 as a still-photography upgrade it has some merit there. Again, sample images will be the proof in the pudding. DJI still has yet to ship a camera that really impresses, after all.

2015-9-13
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jones5r
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The X5 in my opinion is way over priced. It would've been a nice middle ground solution if they would've dealt with the compression issue. Oh they did, just have to shell out 5K plus for the X5R.
2015-9-13
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Dragonflyin
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Burlingtonfilms Posted at 2015-9-11 19:18
Is anyone from DJI reading this post?  If so, get rid of the over compressed 60/mbs 4K codec for the ...

Is it true that DJI can increase the 60/mbs on the X5 through a Firmware update?  Thanks...
2015-9-15
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Burlingtonfilms
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Dragonflyin Posted at 2015-9-16 00:25
Is it true that DJI can increase the 60/mbs on the X5 through a Firmware update?  Thanks...

I would like to know this as well.

I know Blackmagic Design adds new bit rates to their cameras all the time.
2015-9-16
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Dragonflyin
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That would be great if they could crank it up with firmware...so if DJI is getting all this pushback about the bitrate, and they can change it, they would right?  It seems like they have lots of room before they threaten what the X5R can do...
2015-9-16
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supercharged007
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Exactly, I produce primarily for the web. The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture in lower light. The problems from there are numerous. The image is then compressed down to 60mbps which causes artifacting just like the x3. Which means that I'm going to limit myself to more properly lit situations. The next problem is the color space with 8bit 4:2:0. Giving little latitude for trying to correct/edit the picture out in post.

DJI... if you're listening to your customers here's what your use cases are:

X3: Web, Support, 2nd cam, non-broadcast industry
- This is web only export. Usually used as a camera for real-estate, industrial, government, and small private industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5 1st camera low-end production environment.
- In this environment where the image can be sized down and where color editing needs to be less precise and client expectations are much lower the compression can be greater and chroma sub sampling can be very large.
- 4k, 60mbps, 4:2:0

X5: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, semi-broadcast
This is web primarily, semi-broadcast capable. Usually used for storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera for an X5r 1st camera mid-level production environment.
- In this environment where the image often needs to meet higher levels of quality but some minor artifacting can be acceptable less compression is needed and less chroma sub sampling is desired, but limited by the sd card.
- 4k, 100mbps, 4:2:0

X5r: Web, Broadcast, 1st cam, 2nd cam, broadcast
This is web or broadcast ready. Primarily used for cinema/tv/web in storytelling, product showcasing industries. Also used as a 2nd camera in a multi-rotor high-level production environment.
Finally in this environment where the highest qualities must be met the compression needs to be minimal to non-existant and there needs to be no chroma sub sampling. Resulting in imagery that is limited only by the camera and lens.
- 4k, 1.6gbps, 4:4:4

These are your client groups DJI. By creating the X5 as it is currently it rests in a strange no-mans land where you have a nicer camera but poor compression and mediocre chroma sub sampling. As we can see by using the same camera being used in the X5r we simply need an updated codec for the X5 to be in the right price range.

Please help those of us out who are story tellers for design agencies, movie houses, documentary and independent film making by simply updating the codec and firmware in the X5.

Sincerely,
Almost all of your I1 customer base.
2015-9-18
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Mbarnidge
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1000 stars to this post. This nails it perfectly.
2015-9-18
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Burlingtonfilms
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supercharged007 Posted at 2015-9-18 15:33
Exactly, I produce primarily for the web. The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture i ...

Good post!

Though the X5 with a 4:2:2 color space would fit in a little better.
2015-9-18
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Dragonflyin
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supercharged007 Posted at 2015-9-18 15:33
Exactly, I produce primarily for the web. The X5 does only 1 thing for me. It allows me to capture i ...

That was awesome, thanks for presenting such a clear perspective on how close they are to what a lot of us want out of the X5...hopefully, in this way, DJI can hear you (us) and offer a firmware update to get us there.
2015-9-18
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epicaerialbd
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This is not gonna fixed with Firmware update as far as i can understand. Because higher bitrate will produce more larger file and the storage option available at X5 micro SD Card which not fast enough to handle that.  
2015-9-19
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Mbarnidge
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Not true. Most high end microsd cards write at about 40-50 megabytes per second not megabits. That's about 400 megabits/s or Mb/s. Plenty fast enough to handle a 100Mb/s video stream. Most people are getting confused because the card specs areMB/s and the camera bitstream is Mb/s. Although whether the X5 encoder can keep up is another matter. That's a hardware limit.
2015-9-19
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