So I've just bought Avata 2, and I see that there's still no 25fps option (europe / pal) - only 50fps..For (usa / ntsc) there's 30fps (and of course 60fps), so why not put 24 and 25 fps option with next firmware like in every other DJI products?
Please treat Avata as a true addition to your product line and give opportunity to take full advantage of its capabilities without connecting a GoPro


ps. don't tell me that it's not possible or some other mumbo-jumbo Just look at beautiful framedrops from Avata 2 promo videos from some youtubers, who got first units
It IS a real problem when you're mixing 24/25 fps project with 30fps footage.

ps.2. also - 24/25fps with same bitrate as 50/60fps = better overall image with more details..

Hi there. We appreciate you explaining how it would help you out. While that feature isn’t currently in our development roadmap, we will forward this to our relevant team to look at its possibilities that include improvements and will be helpful for the majority of our customers. However, we wish to inform you that there is no guarantee this will be featured. Thank you for your understanding and support.

People literally refused me to use Avata 2 on the set after told the DP that there is no 24fps! Come on DJI, just do it you can!

DJI Paladin Posted at 4-14 19:16
Hi there. We appreciate you explaining how it would help you out. While that feature isn’t currently in our development roadmap, we will forward this to our relevant team to look at its possibilities that include improvements and will be helpful for the majority of our customers. However, we wish to inform you that there is no guarantee this will be featured. Thank you for your understanding and support.

So... the big problem is latency with goggles? If I get it right - with higher resolution and lower FPS we'll get higher latency. On Goggles 3 specs is: " 1080p/100fps video transmission quality: latency down to 24 ms
‌1080p/60fps video transmission quality: latency down to 40 ms"

But there's a golden mean: Give us 24 and 25fps as menu option default turned off. When user want to turn it on (in both 4K 16:9 and 4:3) just put disclaimer with possibly risk (similar when you want turn on M mode in DJI FPV Remote Controller 3), et voila! We have option what we need, and you've warned us of possibly risks with big latency. I'll believe it's a win-win situation

ps. option in menu for HDR video on/off would be also great.

What possible use case is there for 24fps? You're not gonna be using Avata 2 footage in cinema, are you?

If you need 25fps for EU television just use 50 (or even 100) and cut unneeded frames. Done.

I'd personally get rid of 30fps mode too since it feels like flying through a slideshow.

I also have to comment on "Just look at beautiful framedrops from Avata 2 promo videos from some youtubers, who got first units" - maybe if YouTubers stopped this absolute silliness of "24fPs Is CiNeMaTiC", we could all watch videos in a frame rate that doesn't have to interpolate frames on majority of displays in the world... This way you have 30/60/100/whatever fps video rendered into a 24fps timeline displaying on a (most likely) 60hz display and you're losing data twice in the process. It's just beyond dumb.

fichek Posted at 4-24 15:33
What possible use case is there for 24fps? You're not gonna be using Avata 2 footage in cinema, are you?

If you need 25fps for EU television just use 50 (or even 100) and cut unneeded frames. Done.

@fichek:
Don't be ignorant. Every DJI drone as I remember, and I'm DJI owner since Phantom 3, has 24/25 fps.
Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier.

Marcin Golik Posted at 4-24 23:18
@fichek:
Don't be ignorant. Every DJI drone as I remember, and I'm DJI owner since Phantom 3, has 24/25 fps.
Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier.

"Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier."

In an FPV drone, latency is the most important thing. It is also dangerous to fly with high latency.
As @Fichek said, use 50 fps and use 360 degrees of exposure and you could have a 25 fps video with 1/50 exposure. And much less latency while flying.
  The Phantom is not an FPV drone. You fly it in VLOS. It is not possible to compare the two drones.

Marcin Golik Posted at 4-24 23:18
@fichek:
Don't be ignorant. Every DJI drone as I remember, and I'm DJI owner since Phantom 3, has 24/25 fps.
Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier.

There is no one VTX out there recording at 24/25 fps.
No DJI, no Walksnail and no HD-Zero VTXs. If you like to compare things.

fichek Posted at 4-24 15:33
What possible use case is there for 24fps? You're not gonna be using Avata 2 footage in cinema, are you?

If you need 25fps for EU television just use 50 (or even 100) and cut unneeded frames. Done.

Here in Europe I record all materials at 25fps (sometimes in 50/100fps for slowmo). I also don't like in general look of 50/60fps movies. And whether I will use the recorded material in a full-length film or in social media - I want to have a choice. Is it so hard to understand?
Also from what you claim, I don't think you understand what bitrate is. When recording at 25fps you have twice as much data per frame (vs 50fps), not to mention of low-light situation and lowering shutter. And I know it probably wouldn't be safe to fly with 1/25 shutter ;) but not everyone needs to fly in acro either.

Luca Rubino Posted at 4-25 02:48
"Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier."

In an FPV drone, latency is the most important thing. It is also dangerous to fly with high latency.

That's why I proposed a solution similar to turning on manual mode in DJI FPV Remote Controller 3. That is, only for those who really need it.
One example where this can be used is low-light scenarios with dark interiors in buildings when slowly flying around the property.

And don't get me wrong - I am aware of latency, but it's nice to have such an option to choose from, even if it is "hidden".

Marcin Golik Posted at 4-24 23:18
@fichek:
Don't be ignorant. Every DJI drone as I remember, and I'm DJI owner since Phantom 3, has 24/25 fps.
Apart from latency, I see no reason why not add in Avata 24/25 fps option as described earlier.

Who's being ignorant by trying to keep alive 100+ year old standard that has no place in today's age? http://digifonics.com/24-fps.html

MarcinDzi Posted at 4-25 02:56
Here in Europe I record all materials at 25fps (sometimes in 50/100fps for slowmo). I also don't like in general look of 50/60fps movies. And whether I will use the recorded material in a full-length film or in social media - I want to have a choice. Is it so hard to understand?
Also from what you claim, I don't think you understand what bitrate is. When recording at 25fps you have twice as much data per frame (vs 50fps), not to mention of low-light situation and lowering shutter. And I know it probably wouldn't be safe to fly with 1/25 shutter ;) but not everyone needs to fly in acro either.

Yeah, it's really hard to understand why you would use 24/25/50 fps footage on social media when majority of users will be viewing it on 60hz screens. This practice needs to die. It makes no sense. You get a tiny bit more bitrate from social media platforms (you don't get double bitrate while recording btw as you implied in another post, at least not with Avata series, see screenshots below for 4K 4:3 10bit footage from Avata 2), but you lose fluidity of motion even if it was recorded at "correct" frame rate.

DJI Paladin Posted at 4-14 19:16
Hi there. We appreciate you explaining how it would help you out. While that feature isn’t currently in our development roadmap, we will forward this to our relevant team to look at its possibilities that include improvements and will be helpful for the majority of our customers. However, we wish to inform you that there is no guarantee this will be featured. Thank you for your understanding and support.

25p would allow twice as much light to the sensor meaning a lower ISO could be used to record interior shots. The frame rate is fine for slow indoor flights and would basically mean the end of having to strap a GoPro to DJI products just to get a 25p frame rate. We already have 30p for the American market but no 25p for the European and Australian markets.Before we had to use Gopro's because it was a way better camera but now we have the same sensor as the action 4 its now on par with the Gopro apart from this one little addition
I'm hoping that this will become a reality in the next firmware update ??

fichek Posted at 4-25 05:09
Yeah, it's really hard to understand why you would use 24/25/50 fps footage on social media when majority of users will be viewing it on 60hz screens. This practice needs to die. It makes no sense. You get a tiny bit more bitrate from social media platforms (you don't get double bitrate while recording btw as you implied in another post, at least not with Avata series, see screenshots below for 4K 4:3 10bit footage from Avata 2), but you lose fluidity of motion even if it was recorded at "correct" frame rate.

[view_image]

Problem is in Europe and like us in Australia we need 50hz to stop the interior lights from flickering, especially LED's  which is also why there is a real need for 25p when flying indoor tours. Plus we get twice as much light on the sensor with that frame rate meaning we can use a lower ISO so less noise in the image. Fine shooting 30p if all the interior lights are tungsten but they never are and don't get me started on strip lights lol

fansd588b18f Posted at 4-25 05:53
Problem is in Europe and like us in Australia we need 50hz to stop the interior lights from flickering, especially LED's  which is also why there is a real need for 25p when flying indoor tours. Plus we get twice as much light on the sensor with that frame rate meaning we can use a lower ISO so less noise in the image. Fine shooting 30p if all the interior lights are tungsten but they never are and don't get me started on strip lights lol

I'm in EU and had no issue shooting 60 or 120 fps (on old Avata with V2 goggles, sad that newer ones can't do that) with a factor of 1/50 shutter speed. There's also anti-flicker feature that's on by default on Avata, not sure if that also helps in some way (or if it just prefers adjusting shutter to match flickering when on full auto settings).

fansd588b18f Posted at 4-25 05:45
25p would allow twice as much light to the sensor meaning a lower ISO could be used to record interior shots. The frame rate is fine for slow indoor flights and would basically mean the end of having to strap a GoPro to DJI products just to get a 25p frame rate. We already have 30p for the American market but no 25p for the European and Australian markets.Before we had to use Gopro's because it was a way better camera but now we have the same sensor as the action 4 its now on par with the Gopro apart from this one little addition
I'm hoping that this will become a reality in the next firmware update ??

Thank you for your response. Rest assured that we will continue to record such feedback to reach our designated team. Should you have other inquiries, feel free to contact us. Have a nice day.

DJI Paladin Posted at 4-26 19:30
Thank you for your response. Rest assured that we will continue to record such feedback to reach our designated team. Should you have other inquiries, feel free to contact us. Have a nice day.

Please if considering adding new frame rate options, let there be 90fps. It would be the highest possible frame rate on newer goggles (2/Integra/3) that's divisible by 30, so we could have the best compromise between lower latency and useable footage for majority of screens out there. That would be great for all devices these 3 pairs of goggles support including the original Avata, O3 Air Unit, original FPV Air Unit, DJI FPV and so on. Thanks.

MarcinDzi Posted at 4-24 13:41
So... the big problem is latency with goggles? If I get it right - with higher resolution and lower FPS we'll get higher latency. On Goggles 3 specs is: " 1080p/100fps video transmission quality: latency down to 24 ms
‌1080p/60fps video transmission quality: latency down to 40 ms"

We appreciate your feedback. We will gather your feedback and forward it to our designated team for attention. Your understanding is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

fichek Posted at 4-26 23:11
Please if considering adding new frame rate options, let there be 90fps. It would be the highest possible frame rate on newer goggles (2/Integra/3) that's divisible by 30, so we could have the best compromise between lower latency and useable footage for majority of screens out there. That would be great for all devices these 3 pairs of goggles support including the original Avata, O3 Air Unit, original FPV Air Unit, DJI FPV and so on. Thanks.

Thank you for your feedback. We really appreciate the time and effort you have invested in providing this suggestion to us. Your feedback will be cascaded to the concerned team for further review. Your understanding is highly appreciated.

fichek Posted at 4-24 15:33
What possible use case is there for 24fps? You're not gonna be using Avata 2 footage in cinema, are you?

If you need 25fps for EU television just use 50 (or even 100) and cut unneeded frames. Done.

I mean yeah, I’d actually like to experiment with using the Avata 2 at 24fps in my films. I like the look of 24fps and the idea that it’s some anachronistic relic is absurd. Can you imagine if every film and tv show you watched looked like Ang Lee’s Gemini Man or a soap opera? HFR experimenting in cinema is interesting but there’s something about the way we process 24 that is kind of magical.

If it’s a latency/safety issue, I wonder if there’s a way to send an HFR feed to the goggles but record in 24? I’m brand new to drone and FPV world so maybe that’s a silly and impossible idea, i don’t know.

So, I second the request for 24/25 options on the Avata 2. I was about to buy one but found this thread which gives me a bit of pause as a filmmaker

fans4779f231 Posted at 5-28 20:15
I mean yeah, I’d actually like to experiment with using the Avata 2 at 24fps in my films. I like the look of 24fps and the idea that it’s some anachronistic relic is absurd. Can you imagine if every film and tv show you watched looked like Ang Lee’s Gemini Man or a soap opera? HFR experimenting in cinema is interesting but there’s something about the way we process 24 that is kind of magical.

If it’s a latency/safety issue, I wonder if there’s a way to send an HFR feed to the goggles but record in 24? I’m brand new to drone and FPV world so maybe that’s a silly and impossible idea, i don’t know.

Why not make silent black and white films? They're even more magical.

We've had the tech for decades and the only reason film industry kept 24fps even after going digital is they were too cheap to pay for storage of those extra few fps. Absolutely nothing magical about being served a minimum viable product.

fichek Posted at 5-28 23:46
Why not make silent black and white films? They're even more magical.

We've had the tech for decades and the only reason film industry kept 24fps even after going digital is they were too cheap to pay for storage of those extra few fps. Absolutely nothing magical about being served a minimum viable product.

frankly I used “magical” as shorthand for how 24 works cognitively— the minimum framerate where it looks continuous and lifelike due to persistence of vision, but without tipping into the odd-looking hyperreal that happens above. If you wave your hand in front of you at arms length, there is a blur, different from how it would look captured at 60 or 120 or even 30. The lag at which our brains process the eye's images. I don't find this to be a drawback or a limitation we should get beyond-- it just a different form of capture and perception. If it was purely economic and material, busted open by digital, then I don't think nearly every narrative television show and film would still shoot at 24. The cost increase to shoot at thirty would be negligible if anything. And companies keep pushing the resolution up and up, keep innovating for that, but not really for going beyond 24 in cinema. Maybe you think this is all mumbo jumbo justification but I think there’s actually more to it than stubborn tradition. I personally would not want all cinema to look like a soap opera or even a 30fps reality show, but whatever floats your boat.

Again, I’m actually all for people experimenting with hfr cinema like james cameron and ang lee, but I think it's clear they are using hfr as uncanny methods of mediation and distancing, precisely because it looks so strange.

I’m not sure why you have to be so condescending toward people who might want to use a device differently from you, but there’s nothing wrong with silent black and white films either. Some of my favorites of those are Meshes of the Afternoon by Maya Deren (1943), Line Describing a Cone by Anthony McCall (1973), Close Quarters by Jim Jennings (2005), Note to Tetsua by Saul Levine (2018), and Life in the Shadows by Robert Todd (2018). Maybe I will in fact make a silent black and white film with the Avata 2. It may or may not be optimized for the infinite content scroll. And anyway, my phone has a 120hz refresh rate.

ackno Posted at 5-29 07:55
frankly I used “magical” as shorthand for how 24 works cognitively— the minimum framerate where it looks continuous and lifelike due to persistence of vision, but without tipping into the odd-looking hyperreal that happens above. If you wave your hand in front of you at arms length, there is a blur, different from how it would look captured at 60 or 120 or even 30. The lag at which our brains process the eye's images. I don't find this to be a drawback or a limitation we should get beyond-- it just a different form of capture and perception. If it was purely economic and material, busted open by digital, then I don't think nearly every narrative television show and film would still shoot at 24. The cost increase to shoot at thirty would be negligible if anything. And companies keep pushing the resolution up and up, keep innovating for that, but not really for going beyond 24 in cinema. Maybe you think this is all mumbo jumbo justification but I think there’s actually more to it than stubborn tradition. I personally would not want all cinema to look like a soap opera or even a 30fps reality show, but whatever floats your boat.

Again, I’m actually all for people experimenting with hfr cinema like james cameron and ang lee, but I think it's clear they are using hfr as uncanny methods of mediation and distancing, precisely because it looks so strange.

Just gonna put this old article here as it perfectly sums up the facts which I am basing my argument on: http://digifonics.com/24-fps.html

Unfortunately it looks like we might see variable refresh rate screens and/or 120Hz+ screens reach market majority before film fanatics agree with basic facts

fichek Posted at 5-29 11:14
Just gonna put this old article here as it perfectly sums up the facts which I am basing my argument on: http://digifonics.com/24-fps.html

Unfortunately it looks like we might see variable refresh rate screens and/or 120Hz+ screens reach market majority before film fanatics agree with basic facts

Yes, I read it the first time you posted it above. Unfortunately Larry's 30fps 1/50 cars still look like 30fps, because they are, but with a little more motion blur. The 'fact" is there's a difference in perception between that and 24, even with shutter speed compensation. I get that you don't care, but I don't see why you have to try and make others not care.

Since we've reached the stage of you just reposting things and insulting people, we might as well call it a day on this convo.

Thank you to Paladin for passing along the feedback.

fichek Posted at 4-26 23:11
Please if considering adding new frame rate options, let there be 90fps. It would be the highest possible frame rate on newer goggles (2/Integra/3) that's divisible by 30, so we could have the best compromise between lower latency and useable footage for majority of screens out there. That would be great for all devices these 3 pairs of goggles support including the original Avata, O3 Air Unit, original FPV Air Unit, DJI FPV and so on. Thanks.

+1 on the 90fps option please!!!  

ackno Posted at 5-29 13:10
Yes, I read it the first time you posted it above. Unfortunately Larry's 30fps 1/50 cars still look like 30fps, because they are, but with a little more motion blur. The 'fact" is there's a difference in perception between that and 24, even with shutter speed compensation. I get that you don't care, but I don't see why you have to try and make others not care.

Since we've reached the stage of you just reposting things and insulting people, we might as well call it a day on this convo.

You were the one that restarted a discussion on a thread that's been inactive for over a month so I didn't think you actually read anything tbh, and it seems like after all the words that were exchanged, you have still failed to grasp the simple point I was trying to make. So yeah, I agree to disagree.

24 fps don't make any sense in today's World, because it introduce stuttering on common Desktop and Mobile screens except on TVs with their build in scaler. It's obvious for everybody for years, but people will never understand this or even want to acknowledge it. Because some "experts" on YouTube are telling you, 24 fps is the cinematic holy grail. What, however, is a very good measure of these experts' expertise. Same story for 25 fps in PAL regions. And how much light is hitting the sensor is depending on shutter speed, not the frame rate - same for flicker. If you don't strictly stick to the 180° shutter rule, you can easy avoid the flicker of artificial light with 30 fps in PAL regions.

But you can write or say this a hundred times, and the 24 fps myth will still persist. Most people just don't bother to simply shoot two linear drone shots at 24 and 30 fps by themself and compare the clips on their phone or whatever. Honestly, you could just set up two projects in Motion, After Effects, Fusion or whatever and run a bar across the screen to see the difference and the 24 fps stutter. And then there are often the great tips for the solution to 24 fps stutter: "Yeah, of course you need ND filter." ;)

fichek Posted at 5-29 15:39
You were the one that restarted a discussion on a thread that's been inactive for over a month so I didn't think you actually read anything tbh, and it seems like after all the words that were exchanged, you have still failed to grasp the simple point I was trying to make. So yeah, I agree to disagree.

It’s a feature request thread, so I added a voice echoing interest in the requested feature. What a wild idea.

I grasp your simple point perfectly and find it reductive. Glad we had this talk.

skyscope Posted at 5-29 16:20
24 fps don't make any sense in today's World, because it introduce stuttering on common Desktop and Mobile screens except on TVs with their build in scaler. It's obvious for everybody for years, but people will never understand this or even want to acknowledge it. Because some "experts" on YouTube are telling you, 24 fps is the cinematic holy grail. What, however, is a very good measure of these experts' expertise. Same story for 25 fps in PAL regions. And how much light is hitting the sensor is depending on shutter speed, not the frame rate - same for flicker. If you don't strictly stick to the 180° shutter rule, you can easy avoid the flicker of artificial light with 30 fps in PAL regions.

But you can write or say this a hundred times, and the 24 fps myth will still persist. Most people just don't bother to simply shoot two linear drone shots at 24 and 30 fps by themself and compare the clips on their phone or whatever. Honestly, you could just set up two projects in Motion, After Effects, Fusion or whatever and run a bar across the screen to see the difference and the 24 fps stutter. And then there are often the great tips for the solution to 24 fps stutter: "Yeah, of course you need ND filter." ;)

But, it's magical

fichek Posted at 5-29 18:27
But, it's magical

what's magical is claiming that 24 and 30 can ever look the same! where'd the six frames go?! abra cadabra. at the end of the day 30 looks cringe in cinema. xoxo

ackno Posted at 5-30 07:37
at the end of the day 30 looks cringe in cinema. xoxo

Just like 24 fps looks cringe outside of the cinema.
But perhaps even Netflix is wrong, who knows.  :-D

https://netflixtechblog.com/nati ... layback-6c87836a948

DJI Paladin Posted at 4-14 19:16
Hi there. We appreciate you explaining how it would help you out. While that feature isn’t currently in our development roadmap, we will forward this to our relevant team to look at its possibilities that include improvements and will be helpful for the majority of our customers. However, we wish to inform you that there is no guarantee this will be featured. Thank you for your understanding and support.

How could something as simple as a universal framerate not even be in your development roadmap?  How was that strategy meeting?  "No, Bob, we will not give our users the framerate that every camera in the world has and that every person who shoots cinematics uses 100% of the time.  We only want half the sales.  Half, I say!"

I'm in the market today.  I'm not waiting around for the most obvious "feature" (basic use function) to maybe some day be implemented.

I really hope they do. I prefer 24pfps timelines. The guy below me clearly just does drone work and isnt blending framerates.

MarcinDzi Posted at 4-24 13:41
So... the big problem is latency with goggles? If I get it right - with higher resolution and lower FPS we'll get higher latency. On Goggles 3 specs is: " 1080p/100fps video transmission quality: latency down to 24 ms
‌1080p/60fps video transmission quality: latency down to 40 ms"

Camera fps settings has nothing to do with video transmission latency

Swedrone Posted at 6-14 23:24
Camera fps settings has nothing to do with video transmission latency

https://www.dji.com/pl/avata-2/specs

"Lowest Latency With DJI Goggles 3:
1080p/100fps Video Transmission Quality: 24 ms
1080p/60fps Video Transmission Quality: 40 ms‌"

I saw a list of other resolutions/fps and related latency somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Adding the option to record in 24/25 fps should be a no-brainer. People use drones as convenient film cameras, too.. it's not all YouTube and TikTok. I'm doing some editing right now where there's 4K drone footage as part of the mix, and the timeline is 24 fps (and yes, it's meant to be shown in a cinema, DCP format). So just because most users might be presenting the output on a 60hz screen, it does not mean there shouldn't be an option for 24/25 (which is surely just a snippet of code away - perhaps even just a couple of numbers in a lookup table - in the firmware). Having the option doesn't interfere with whatever your preferred framerate might be. If you're a 30 fps person, then record in 30 fps. If you're a 60 fps person, then record in 60 fps. But if you for whatever reason want to record in 24 frames per second, then you should be able to do so. This entire discussion is borderline ridiculous, and DJI should add the option because it's simple to do (it's obviously (!) already present as options in their other cameras - including the Pocket 3, the Action 4 and the Mini 4 Pro) and because it would allow more people to use the drone footage in more situations. as it is, it downright excludes some use cases for the drone - and implicitly purchases - for little gain. Btw, shutter speed is possibly a more important aspect than the rate itself and filming in 60 fps simply prohibits > 1/60s shutters, which directly influences the look of your footage. For many in a showstopping way.

I'm okay flying with 24 fps latency. It's not much different from 30 , people. More light is always better for  indoors and night... But if latency is really and issue why doesn't Dji put 48 fps, that converts smoothly to the 24 fps industry standard... DJI you can't change cinema standards....

tasca Posted at 9-6 07:12
DJI you can't change cinema standards....

If anyone can change this ancient "standard", it's DJI

fichek Posted at 5-28 23:46
Why not make silent black and white films? They're even more magical.

We've had the tech for decades and the only reason film industry kept 24fps even after going digital is they were too cheap to pay for storage of those extra few fps. Absolutely nothing magical about being served a minimum viable product.

24fps makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways. For example in VFX where frames take ages to render(every frame you can take away makes the process a lot cheaper.
Also peoples eye is used to the feel of 24fps. You talk about functionalty and how every screen runs at 60hz. But not all decisions are made with technical reasons in mind.
24fps is an artistic decision, like adding a vignetting, making colors warm or cold depending on the situation and feel you want.
You only take into account your use case scenario and your needs but having 24/48fps for some projects is a must have

I’d like to use the Avata 2 for a shoot on Tuesday, but the DP wants 23.976fps. So no Avata 2. Bummer.