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The BIG Battery problem may affect All of Us..
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sp.thanos
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Just a quick search, and you can find many threads referring to a battery problem, when batteries powering up normally, but providing no power to the copter, and restarting when connected to the charger.

That was my situation a couple of weeks ago, you can see on these videos:






This battery had only 7 cycles when failed. I thought that my problem was some kind of firmware failure, because i had just updated to V01.03.0020
  with my first battery, and when i inserted the second (failed) one, the Phantom started for a second and then lost power.


After recording these videos, i sent the battery to Dji through my reseller, and 1 month later (??) they returned my battery back, because my battery dropped down from a reasonable height (??) and that made it unrepairable.Off course my battery was NEVER DROPPED. It was only 6 days since i bought it. Also, everybody can understand that a soldered cable cannot broke because of a drop.


First thing i did when i received the battery was to Disassemble it, and see how it goes inside and....
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vmahkyexw11prtr/IMG_4946.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wlxh25l8hxv2dny/IMG_4952.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/afit4wsdbsorjps/IMG_4948.jpg?dl=0

one of the MAIN POWER CABLE Soldering was CRACKED maybe because of insufficient wetting (a common situation in pcb soldering).

Of course after resoldering all contacts of the battery, it performs PERFECTLY.

My question may be an answer at the same time to all of these guys out there that lost their drones due to a "sudden power loss"....

Im sure that this affects MANY batteries especially those produced close to my serial nr (6171152005003) and it is also a serious Safety issue.






2015-10-2
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fatalPORKshank
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First I've heard of this.  Do you have any pictures of the cracked solder?
2015-10-2
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sp.thanos
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fatalPORKshank Posted at 2015-10-3 01:54
First I've heard of this.  Do you have any pictures of the cracked solder?

dropbox links are photos from the battery
2015-10-2
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Droneguy
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Make a formal report to DJI, this is serious threat, thanks for sharing, good info
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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It is posable that you just got a bad battery with a cold solder joint. Very few people are having their Phantoms drop out of the sky.
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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Thanks for the heads-up. I will look into this.
2015-10-2
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Copterpilot
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 02:05
It is posable that you just got a bad battery with a cold solder joint. Very few people are having t ...

http://forum.dji.com/thread-32241-1-1.html

http://forum.dji.com/thread-32646-1-1.html

i bet my battery, that those situations are the same "rare" cold soldering..
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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Copterpilot Posted at 2015-10-2 16:15
http://forum.dji.com/thread-32241-1-1.html

http://forum.dji.com/thread-32646-1-1.html

Could be. But with only 2 thread links, 1 of them being yours I would say that it is still very rare!

Dave
2015-10-2
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Copterpilot
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 02:24
Could be. But with only 2 thread links, 1 of them being yours I would say that it is still very ra ...

There is no thread started by me on these two links..
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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Copterpilot Posted at 2015-10-2 17:05
There is no thread started by me on these two links..

Sorry, my mistake. I am looking at and replying to too many threads right now.
You are correct.


Dave
2015-10-2
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Copterpilot
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 03:07
Sorry, my mistake. I am looking at and replying to too many threads right now.
You are correct.

No worries Dave
2015-10-2
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gregg1r
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-2 20:07
Sorry, my mistake. I am looking at and replying to too many threads right now.
You are correct.

DJI-Dave,

  I take it that DJI is using lead free solder for all of their work due to RoHS. Tin based solders are prone to a multitude of problems, one of which is cold solder joints. The other is that solder joints exposed to humidity grow tin whiskers which short once touched.

For all of my surface mount circuit boards, I refuse to use tin based solders and will not sell to European customers due to RoHS.

2015-10-2
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ag0n
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I've also seen at least two other threads about these symptoms.  Glad I haven't bought a new one in the same time period.
2015-10-2
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Kit Walker
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Great thread. I wish some other company can reverse engineer Lightbridge technology.., because I'm really disliking DJI's attitude when presented with problems.
Let's give our money to someone that cares,
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-10-2 17:31
DJI-Dave,

  I take it that DJI is using lead free solder for all of their work due to RoHS. Tin b ...

Pretty sure they are using lead free. But to be honest I do not know.
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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Kit Walker Posted at 2015-10-2 20:09
Great thread. I wish some other company can reverse engineer Lightbridge technology.., because I'm r ...

Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope some other company innovates something better than Lightbridge and then DJI will innovate something even better. We are very good at Innovating you know. DJI stands for Da-Jiang Innovations Science and Technology Co., Ltd.


I hope you did not think my attitude was bad here. I try very hard to be friendly and nice. It has been a very long day though, and I was in about 8 different threads when I did a quick reply to this thread. I did thank the original thread starter and tell him I would look into this matter. Maybe I was a bit short when I said it is still rare with only 2 thread links. I actually did think to myself I was a bit too short when I said that. Very sorry if I offended anyone!


So lets take more time to talk about this. About Phantoms or Inspires that use our battery technology dropping out of the sky and only seeing a small number of guys reporting this problem.

DJI sells thousands of these things world wide every day.
I wish DJI would provide me with the total number of units sold (Phantoms & Inspires). I think it would help my discussion here. I remember hearing that B&H Photo at one point last year was selling 200+ Phantoms a day. That is just one store. Think about that!

So we are all shaped by our perceptions!!! Here is my perception, and my personal opinion:

There is an extremely large number of Phantoms and Inspires flying everyday. And they are being flown by a wide variety of people with a wide variety of skill and experience. Some guys with zero experience and some like me with 20 years and some with much more than that.

I think the number of guys having trouble is so extremely small compared to the guys that are not. I fly in a very urban environment where everyone knows a lawyer. I also am on the internet everyday in this forum and several others. I read all the horror stories. If anyone should be nervous to fly it should be me. Now, if all of a sudden we had the internet totally flooded on every forum with “flyaways” or "update nightmares" or Phantoms droping out of the sky, you bet I would stop flying and not update my personal Inspire or my Phantom3. But I am not nervous to fly or update. I am not going to stop flying because I keep it in perspective!  Because I see all the good stories also. Like guys with 300+ flights on their Inspire with no problems.
Also because of my personal good experiences. I have about 200 flights on mine. I have lost count on how many flights I have on my various Phantoms.
I have 3 good friends that all bought Inspires because of my personal recommendation. All 3 fly all the time and have never had a problem other than 1 of them was having some video drop out. They are not nervous about flying because they are never on the internet.  I also belong to a flying club where 4 other guys that I know, but are not close friends, fly Inspires. And several guys flying Phantoms.  They all know I work for DJI and I would be the first call they make if they had a problem, and so far no calls. I own a total of 12 DJI multirotors and I have been flying DJI for about 3 years with no trouble. So that is what is shaping my perception and my opinion.

That and this...
(Stating the obvious so please do not take offense)
Do not believe everything you read on the internet. We have a lot of competitors that love to lie on the internet to make us look bad. We also have a lot of DJI haters, for various reasons, that also love to lie on the internet. They see a thread with someone complaining  or any other negative thread and love to pour fuel on the fire. So of all the bad stories we read. A big portion are lies or user error, most ((user error)) from what I have read and researched. (But not ALL I know that.) And NOT this thread. I belive this guy 100%
There is always some risk, nothing is perfect. Also there is a huge number of people flying everyday with zero trouble compared to the number of guys with trouble, that I know for sure!
Think about it. If you go buy a new car and drive it down the road, if it works you just drive it down the road. You don't get on the internet and tell everybody, “Hey guys, my car drives." No, you just drive it and enjoy it. However if your new car breaks down, then you bet, the first thing you do is get on the internet and tell everyone. I understand that and I would do that too.
So I personally keep this in mind also. The internet can skew your perception in a unrealistic and negative way. Most of the guys flying the Inspire are too busy working to be telling everyone how great the Inspire is. Same with Phantom, they are too busy working or having fun flying.

In the 20 years I have been flying RC the Inspire is the best thing I have ever flown, and the Phantom3 a close second!

I have been a DJI customer a lot longer than I have been a DJI employee.  I was using DJI products for about 3 years before I was hired. However the statement should be modified. It's not that I was a DJI customer and now I am a DJI employee. I am still both. I do have empathy and sympathy for our customers.   And I need to make sure I always stay in that frame of mind. That way I can be better connected to you guys, and that will help me provide better support.

Dave


2015-10-2
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rayrokni
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 12:24
Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope ...

i hope you get promoted to head of CS, we may then see a vast improvement!!

this is all im gonna say on this thread:
most people who complain on this forum, only see things based on their own experiences. So if my p3 doesnt do a successful FW update and i see a few more threads saying the same, then most p3 are faulty or the FW is bad! if my battery malfunctions and drops out of the sky, then "the big battery problem may affect all of us".
2015-10-2
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DJI-Dave
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rayrokni Posted at 2015-10-2 21:40
i hope you get promoted to head of CS, we may then see a vast improvement!!

this is all im gonna  ...

Thanks!!!
2015-10-2
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Mad_Angler1
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The issue is as humans we are programmed to see patterns,  we see 3 P3 crashes that look similar and we instantly think its got to be the same cause.

From an engineers point of view you have to treat each separately and investigate each one, more often than not what looks to be the same initially ends up being completely different.

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
2015-10-3
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DJI-Dave
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Mad_Angler1 Posted at 2015-10-3 01:40
The issue is as humans we are programmed to see patterns,  we see 3 P3 crashes that look similar and ...

Very good point!
2015-10-3
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jaronpv
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-2 22:24
Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope ...

Spot on.  I have always been frustrated with how people lose sight of the scewed information you receive when you only look at a forum.   Thanks Dave!  And keep up the good work.  We appreciate you!
2015-10-3
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-2 23:24
Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope ...

DjiDave,  I admit sometimes, I along with at least a few of other flyers are proceeding with trepidation and a overabundance of caution.  I can't speak for others, simply because I don't know, but personally,  I fly where/ when there are very few people about and  try to fly a track that will limit going over what few  people who are there. ( as evidenced on a recent video I made on  very popular Lake)  because of what I read here on the forum.

There is a guy I work with saying that I  don't take very many risks, that he would be flying a lot more aggressively,  I replied that is why there are so many people up in arms about these Drones (sorry).   If things keep going on the way they are with regards to idiots and their quad copters, pretty soon I would have an expensive paperweight, not being able to fly at all!
2015-10-3
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DJI-Dave
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jaronpv@hotmail Posted at 2015-10-3 07:24
Spot on.  I have always been frustrated with how people lose sight of the scewed information you r ...

Thanks, I do appreciate hearing that once in a while.

Dave
2015-10-3
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DJI-Dave
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CaveDrone Posted at 2015-10-3 07:34
DjiDave,  I admit sometimes, I along with at least a few of other flyers are proceeding with trepi ...

I completely understand where you're coming from. And I admit that I am not quite as carefree as I used to be.
I have an aerial photography business. I started it back in 2007 using RC model airplanes .I had already been flying model airplanes as a hobby from January 1996.  It was much more difficult to get the shot with an RC airplane and it was especially difficult taking off and landing in neighborhoods. But it was completely different as far as public opinion. Nobody even knew what I was doing and nobody cared. If they did come over they thought it was cool. That was also how it was like when I first started using multi rotors several years ago to do my aerial photography.  
It's not like that anymore and I am much more conscious and aware of my surroundings and much more careful and much less carefree. I, as you also, fear for the future with the way things are going with the
"drones".
It's almost like the industry is it's own worst enemy. It is become so extremely easy now and so extremely cheap. So now everybody's doing it, and there are too many people doing it that shouldn't be. Or that don't care or don't know what they're doing. I will say this though, it is been a very interesting and fun ride watching as this technology progresses.

Dave
2015-10-3
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Kit Walker
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 15:24
Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope ...

I'm not too concerned with you personally.., unless you were the one from DJI who checked the battery. I dislike the company procedure.
I just noticed a customer purchase a dodgy product (the battery) then get blamed for its fault.
The customer also took the time to look into the possible cause of the problem, and was also nice enough to take the time and create a thread for us all.

Now, to say that this is not a major concern.., based on the idea that it may only affect a few people is a bit annoying imo.
Just because <10% of people have reported this, doesn't make it any less of an issue.
What if..., the problem is real it's just that this individual (and others) are experiencing the affects before the rest of us.

I am not a fan of analogys, because they can skew the way we perceive the problem. Eg. A car won't kill people because of a flat battery.
I could come up with another product that would work in favour of my argument.., but would just take the conversation elsewhere and confuse the issue with cars, laws, fuel etc. I'd prefer to discuss the specifics in context.

Like a needle factory? Only one has aids.., so we won't check the whole shipment. Or.., food. A company sees the machine broke, and inadvertently put grease into some of their product at some stage. Unsure when. Ahh, it's less than 10% so don't worry.
Anyway.., just off the top of my head. I'm not good at them.

Regardless of numbers.., I believe all faults should be addressed for a product that can potentially kill just from not working.

Knowledge is power. With power comes great responsibility. Drink responsibly. Lol.
Anyway.., your still cool. I notice that you at make an effort to write to us all, and I also understand it must be overwhelming with all these posts.., and can also depend on our frame of mind (hence my little rant in the thread, lol)
Thanks for all your efforts, and keep up the good work Dave.


2015-10-3
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DJI-Dave
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Kit Walker Posted at 2015-10-3 13:43
I'm not too concerned with you personally.., unless you were the one from DJI who checked the batte ...

I agree with you. Very much so. I think what you said can be worked into what I said, and  modify my view,  while still keeping my point about keeping things in perspective.  It's true, all faults should be taken very seriously for a product that can cause extreme damage, or possibly kill. Even if it would be a very rare thing to happen.
I should think of a way to work this into my answer for future questions from other forum members.

Thank you for taking the time to help me get a better understanding.Thanks also for the kind words. This job is a lot more challenging than I thought it would be.


Dave
2015-10-3
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Mad_Angler1
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As with all these things it's all about perspective,  considering how many DJI have sold its remarkable how reliable the P3 is for a hobby grade product.     But that's not to say everything is perfect and more work needs to be done in some specific areas.    The problem with a multi is any power or propulsion problem will end badly, I always fly with the thought in my head what would happen if it dropped now, sometimes you do take risks but you have to balance that with the responsibility of what could happen.   If you wanted to be 100% sure your in the best shape you would need to strip each battery and the craft and check every main solder point and plug so you know they are good  But DJIs reliability is generally very good so it not really necessary.
2015-10-4
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Kit Walker
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-4 14:31
I agree with you. Very much so. I think what you said can be worked into what I said, and  modify m ...
Thanks. It's probably not a big deal for most other users anyway.
Everyone here likes the fact that you are here. I think it's a great idea being able to communicate this way with you. I just wanna say that my first post was a bit harsh, so I apologise for pushing the topic that way. It could have been worded better.., and you handled it well.Thanks for replying


2015-10-5
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QaaUz
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-10-3 02:31
DJI-Dave,

  I take it that DJI is using lead free solder for all of their work due to RoHS. Tin b ...

Very - Very interesting.
Whiskering metal joints! Some kind of risk to take when making fine, or for that matter any circuitry.
2015-10-5
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QaaUz
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Kit Walker Posted at 2015-10-3 05:09
Great thread. I wish some other company can reverse engineer Lightbridge technology.., because I'm r ...

The thumbs up is in regard a product that has issues with its composite casing, diverse failures which seem to produce akwardness in resolving and a software that is hardly mature or transparent...

As regards reverse engineering:
To learn from the process is a possibility but to copy it for other than singular private use is to intend others to profit from it. This will resolve to theft unless in accord with the makers/originaters.
Copying reduces the ability to innovatively strive. An issue which I believe is becoming a burden for the Chinese nation. As might become lacking, prompt resolving of issues.

A rough overviewed statement - the item is premature and its presence dictated by pressures on the people who innovate this design/concept/tek - People are pressed by 'capital survival' - or not, as one wish. It is also fascinating and bears with it great impetus.

It is a difficult company to feel support for due to the many dissatisfactory reports - however it might be noted that many units will have been distributed and the total issues are unknown to us. We hear of the faults quicker than lightning. That's natural - who notices that the apparatus does what it is supposed to! That's why it is procured.
We all make errors of judgement - at times, like with dji, one is committed and must follow through, wants to follow through, perfect and so on.

It is a marvellous piece of construction with a need for some slight corrections it would appear.
A shame that there is this darker cloud hovering around.
My P3P keeps running - but then I don't use it very much.
Having now read much more of this thread, I see DJI Dave has engaged in helthy helpful dialogue with other participants - I would delete all my posts for the lack of value they contribute to this - seem not to be able to do so. Reason? The subject is well represented by those who have contributed and in the main reflect my position.

Best regards to all - and many fine flights
2015-10-5
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QaaUz
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-3 06:24
Reverse engineer, do you mean copy and then sell it themselves as their product. I hope not! I hope ...

Very well said Dave. Quite a tonal change from what the poor bloke who started this had to face from your first 'responses'.
You have gone into depth regarding some of the thoughts which occured to me.

It is quite an amazing piece of gear! Dreadfully dependant on a good screen and so on - out of djis' hands - but really'far out'. My first and only RC went autonome - I collected the remains from the oak plantation!
This unit is a totally different 'kettle of fish'.

I really liked your scribblins' I'm replyin' to. Glad you showed this.
2015-10-5
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QaaUz
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Mad_Angler1 Posted at 2015-10-3 10:40
The issue is as humans we are programmed to see patterns,  we see 3 P3 crashes that look similar and ...

Very effective statement - like it - not heard b4.

“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”

2015-10-5
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rodger
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DJI-Dave Posted at 2015-10-2 19:05
It is posable that you just got a bad battery with a cold solder joint. Very few people are having t ...

I have never had an issue with any of my DJI Batteries. I must have at least 15 between my Phantoms and the Inspire. He may of had one with a cold solder joint as you mention. Then again maybe he caught one with a bad Cell. One bad Cell will have an effect on the other Cells.
2015-10-5
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gregg1r
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rodger Posted at 2015-10-5 08:29
I have never had an issue with any of my DJI Batteries. I must have at least 15 between my Phantom ...

Rodger, if it were a bad cell, you'd see in the app that a cell was down. If everything appears good, one can expect to be able to fly without issue.

I had a bike light that worked fine when only using one of the two lamps that it had. As soon as the second lamp was lit, the light would die.
I hooked it up to a regulated power supply and the light wasn't the problem, the battery had a current limiter that kicked in at 8 amps of current draw. It would reset after a few minutes. Very frustrating.

The manufacturer tried weaseling out of the warranty since the replacement was cover $300. Had the bike shop order in a second light for me, plugged in the unit , turned the light onto dual beam, and immediately shut off, the same as my light. They after a month of fighting replaced the battery after a new circuit breaker was installed.
2015-10-5
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gregg1r
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QaaUz Posted at 2015-10-5 06:48
Very - Very interesting.
Whiskering metal joints! Some kind of risk to take when making fine, or f ...

This is/was a major concern with mil spec electronics when the components were being replaced with off the shelf parts.

The only way around it is to conformal coat the circuit boards after assembly.

After reviewing some pictures of the Phantom 3 main board, the board its self doesn't appear to be coated.
2015-10-5
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QaaUz
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gregg1r Posted at 2015-10-5 21:11
This is/was a major concern with mil spec electronics when the components were being replaced with ...

Thanks for the additional info in regard this type of solder.

How far it applies to DJI products, I can't comment. Very many are in use without issues however, the issue raised has likelihood of catching the awareness of the developers judging by this thread and of course is very important.
I was sad he was fobbed off by the support he quoted having experienced.
Happy soldering
2015-10-5
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Rincewind
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I thoroughly second Ray on this one!

As you must know, Dave, CS is not your employers main strength, but following you on the forums makes me think that they are actively trying to change for the better. Without trying to be insulting, the guys that preceded you were a bit, well, either brusque, or evasive. I've got the impression that you tackle complaints head on, and give reasonable answers.
As for the main topic of this thread... I'm not sure what "many" means. I've never had a problem with a total of four batteries, on two different P3As, and over 100 flights. It had also not come to my attention up to this point. I will make sure to be careful for the behavior described above, and report if I see it on my birds.
That being said, and at the risk of sounding a bit cynical, one also has to take cost effectiveness into account. In the thread, someone was saying that, even if it affects less than 10% of users, it should be looked at carefully. I'd say 10% is a huge number! If one in every ten cars sold by any company would be dangerously faulty, that car maker would really be in trouble! I think the figure might be more similar to less then 1%, or even 0.1%. The problem is that, any company, even at the risk of getting into big big trouble later on, needs to set a limit to their QA at some point.
For example, in medical instruments sterilization, it is impossible to obtain 100% sterility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St ... y%29#Quantification). Furthermore, as you keep adding 9s after the decimal point (99.9%, 99.99%, 99.999%, etc.) costs mount up exponentially. In order to make a profit, medical suppliers need to balance the risks of "dirty" instruments, with the cost of "spotless" ones. You could argue, therefore, that such a company is codifying the price of someone's live into their finances, since someone, sometime, will get one of the "not that clean" catheters, and die from a hospital related infection which is traceable not to negligence, but to "cost effective" procedures. Will this cost the company money in the long run (legal trouble, damages, etc.)? Perhaps, but the truth is that, in most cases, this has already been taken into account in the cost calculation when deciding the sterilization process. And I'm not sure that's such a bad idea either, I mean, when the chances of getting infected by a catheter are smaller than, say, being hit by lightning, do you really need more (although, having said that, I'd hate to be the both the guy with the infection, or the one hit by lightning)?
I think DJI might be striking a similar deal here with their batteries. They must have calculated the quality level at which point there is an optimal balance between most people being able to fly safely, while at the same time having to repair a minimal number of machines. As I said above, I'd hate to be the one that got struck by lightning, and commiserate the OP for it, but my impression is that that can, happen with any purchase you make, not just from “evil” DJI.
2015-10-5
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QaaUz Posted at 2015-10-5 04:21
Very well said Dave. Quite a tonal change from what the poor bloke who started this had to face fr ...

Thanks so much QaaUz.


I saw that post you wanted deleted so I deleted it for you.   I am also a forum moderator so I can do that.

Dave
2015-10-5
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Rincewind Posted at 2015-10-5 17:09
I thoroughly second Ray on this one!

As you must know, Dave, CS is not your employers main streng ...

Thank you so much Rincewind on seconding Ray's kind words.

Your points are true and well said!  I am always amazed at how many smart people are on these forums and humbled by it as well.


Dave
2015-10-5
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Kit Walker Posted at 2015-10-5 03:16
Thanks. It's probably not a big deal for most other users anyway.
Everyone here likes the fact that  ...

That's ok, I understand. I have seen much, much worse.

Thanks!

2015-10-5
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