nigelw Posted at 2016-1-3 02:24
The drone ascends up to 20 metres without pilot control for no apparent reason whatsoever.  Yes, if  ...

Aloha nigel,

     The problem here and the reason for this entire thread is that there is a reason for the ascent.  The statement of "no apparent reason" means that the flier does not understand the safety aspects of the system they are flying.  They have not read or do not understand the manual.  The thread is an attempt to clarify the RTH points misunderstood by a minority of fliers.

     Apparently, you do not understand cruise control in an automobile.  Stepping on the brake is a canceling operation just like having your thumb over the cancel button on the steering wheel.  They are required to be tied into the same engineered system for safety reasons.

     And your under the tree scenario requires that you understand the details of both the RTH and flight system.  The RTH cancel procedure is a single and immediate circuit.  Using the sticks requires the delay of processing time the computer requires to stop the ascent.  Cancel - fast, processing a stop - slow.  You have to understand what the manufacturer is trying to achieve here; a fast stop by cancellation or a slow stop by using the sticks.  The manufacturer is providing the best solution with the best knowledge of the system you are flying.  Second guessers are not able to provide that information because they are not privy to the predicate information.

     Enabling the hover option when the signal is lost solves both problems.  But the secret is to not fly in dangerous environments without adequate preparation (read the manual) and properly functioning equipment.  Preparation is everything and no amount of stick use can make up for it.  It can only waste time because stick controls have to be processed.  But then safe flying should not need millisecond clearances as stick proponents require.

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-4 00:25
Aloha nigel,

     The problem here and the reason for this entire thread is that there is a reaso ...

The RTH button is the fastest to stop RTH?  Do you know that?  How long is the pilot's reaction time in the equation?

As I (and many others I've no doubt) don't normally use the RTH button, it's not a normal reaction, so a certain amount of thought has to go into it.  If you already have you thumbs on the sticks, it's a normal reaction when you see the craft moving on its own in any direction (with the wind maybe?) to pull the sticks to oppose the movement & hold it in position.  It's almost instantaneous.  That's all my opinion based on my drone flying experience.

That all said, lets assume it's all as it should be because DJI know something I don't.  Why do you then get stick control above 20m?  What's changed?  My reactions haven't, neither has the situation.

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-4 00:25
Aloha nigel,

     Apparently, you do not understand cruise control in an automobile.  Stepping on the brake is a canceling operation just like having your thumb over the cancel button on the steering wheel.  They are required to be tied into the same engineered system for safety reasons.

Yes, I do understand cruise control.  It's you that's missed the point.  The point being, you don't need to press the cancel button to stop in an emergency because it's quicker to use the controls you'd use automatically in an emergency.  To press the cancel button adds another stage, reducing reaction time, so is discouraged.

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-4 01:05
Actually, Nigel - You don't get stick control above 20m, either. Tim is correct in his original st ...

Yes, I realise that, what I should have said is partial control.  Again, this is a strange change in operation which unnecessarily complicates the situation IMO.  Pulling fully down on the stick would make more sense IMO to halt the craft full stop.  Then if RTH was required, the pilot could stop & think for a second & press RTH, or just fly it home manually.

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-2 11:28
That button isn't the only way for the bird to enter RTH mode.

Simply never pressing the button w ...

Aloha Paul,

     You really have got a problem with reality.  For example, here you want to have a hair trigger enabled so you can use a flight alternative to just reading the manual and following directions.  Then you completely show your misunderstanding of government laws and regulations by saying;

"I never fly my bird out of sight - to do so is both illegal and irresponsible. One cannot employ effective "See and Avoid" if one cannot see the aircraft.

Paul.."

Look again Paul.  Wake up from your imaginary world.  The real term is "line of sight".  You do not read manuals or regulations.  How do you expect to know anything if you do not read what you are supposed to read much less understand what you read.  Are you sure you are not out of your league?  These screw-ups that you keep making, that are just plain obvious, seem to indicate so.

     There are no regulations, at least in the US that require you to be able to see your aircraft.  DJI knows that.  I bet the Government of the UK knows that to and has no regulation that a flier must be able to see their aircraft.  The term applies to radio transmissions.  Radio transmissions do not wrap around walls and trees very well just like vision.  If you maintain line of sight with your aircraft, the aircraft will not go out of control due to a loss of transmission.  That is why DJI has a transmission range of 5 K for both the P3P and Inspire 1.  Do you know anyone who can see a P3 or the much larger Inspire at 5 K?  I have never heard of it being done with the naked eye before.

     I have a nice HD camera on my P3 that lets me see what is around me when I am 3 miles out, so I can see and avoid as needed to fly safely.  I bet you wish you had one on your Inspire - oh!  you have one on your Inspire to.  But, apparently, it is not safe to use your camera to see and avoid.  That must be because you are stuck in the tunnel all the time fighting with your sticks.  Why is your camera not good enough to allow you to see and avoid.  My whole aircraft has to spin to look around.  Your camera will spin around independently of the aircraft.  Will the boogeyman sneak up from behind when your aircraft is two miles out?  Just spin around - that is the side movement of the left stick for the P3 at least - and look for him.  See and avoid.

     We take this forum seriously, but you keep spouting blather you make up.  It must sound right to you, but to us it just does not make sense because we take our time to think and figure things out.  Then you try to derail perfectly good instruction with your other-worldly interpretations of reality.  We are consistently showing how you cannot get your facts right, but you insist that your opinion is based in fact.  If your opinions are indeed based on fact, you need to at least get your facts right.

     Quit trying to mislead this forum if you cannot even get your facts right.  I found the "old" P3P manual and it says the same thing as the new one about canceling a RTH.  Since the Inspire manual is so close to the P3P manual, it should not be too much of a leap to think that your "old" Inspire manual will say the same thing about RTH as the two week old one.  You misread the old manual.  Just get over it and move on.  

     Are you now going to insist that you shall live in the past and that the old manual is the one true manual even though you do not even know what it said.  What part of "you misread it" do you not understand.  It is up to you to prove that the old manual differs significantly from the approach of the new manual but that is impossible if you do not even know what the old manual said.  Everyone, including you, should be up to date with each new manual so they can learn how to fly the new upgrades and updates.  If your new Inspire manual says that RTH can be canceled on ascent, then that is it.  

     Your argument is lost.  As far as your argument is concerned, DJI fixed your problem so everything is just fine now.  You can only request that DJI take your sticks routine under advisement because you are in no position to demand it.  You have to fly what you buy and if it is broke, you have to get it fixed before you fly it again.  If you do not like that DJI disregards your demands, then sell your kit and buy another system.  Vote with your pocketbook like everyone else.

     You do not belong in this discussion - you are talking about the Inspire and we are talking about the Phantom 3 because this is the P3 discussion group.  Inspire is a different group.  Even if there is some overlap, your extreme comments distract from the safe flying agenda that DJI is trying to promote in this group.  You are disrupting fliers, not DJI.  If you want to keep misleading people go give the Inspire fliers a try!  Here we are on to your fabricated I am perfect and DJI is not as perfect as I am routine.  Your actions are not consistent with the objectives even you have stated now that you keep encouraging people to fly unsafe and to not get the most they can from their Phantoms like you keep doing with your false analogies and dictum.

     On the other hand, you are quickly becoming entertainment as others and I consistently point out how you have your facts wrong when they are not just plain made up.  Do you want to be taken seriously or do you want to become a joke?

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 15:18
If, as someone who has read the manual and understands the safety aspect of the system, you unde ...

Aloha Paul,

"By "reason", I don't think Nigel meant "cause". I think he may be using the phrase in the same manner as I would use it in that "reason" means "logical sense". My apologies if this was not your intent, Nigel.

Paul.."

Nice stretch, but no banana.

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 11:09
So, which of us do you think has the open mind, Marco Polo?

The one who is saying, "Convince me t ...

Wow - this thread is still going strong - and lengthy. :-)  Disclaimer - due to the lengthiness  I just glance through and may miss some info.

PaulK - To answer your question, in short, I do see the logic in how the RTH currently works (for the general user population).  However, I do see your point as well for your specific application/need but as someone pointed out, DJI cannot make everyone happy...and for good reasons.  

It's all about logic (IFTTT) so let's set these analogies aside and state the real life scenarios & situations.  As this is somewhat a new technology, perhaps, there are legitimate features that we can send to DJI for improvement to be incorporated with future updates.  I am new to this as well so would love to learn more.

Let me start a list of what I was able to pick up as I glance through this lengthy thread:   

-RTH - loss of signal: there's no control to be had so there's no point discussing that...it should ascend to predefined altitude (by the pilot) for that particular flight.  Every flight is different - so the point on being aware of the environment as someone pointed out is important.  Once it's in LOS and signal is regained, pilot can cancel RTH and regain control.   

-RTH activated - ascend and hitting a tree/branch: I believe someone mentioned this - correct me if I misinterpret.   
-Why would someone activate the RTH while under a tree?  
-If they didn't activate RTH, therefore RTH was activated and probably by "loss of signal", then they're probably not in LOS anymore, therefore why would they want control, even if somehow they still can control due to "loss of signal"?!?

-RTH 20M minimum altitude:  I am a firm believer of if I own it I should be able to adjust to whatever settings I see fit; of course, fully understanding the implication behind the changes.  This should be a quick code change; it's no big deal.  Let's just say DJI changed this to allow us to set it to whatever altitude.  

So for PaulK, you can set altitude to be whatever now to fit into your flying condition under the tunnel or whatever unique structures you fly these through. You're happy.
MarcoP(me), I am a happy camper as well, get to tinker with setting as my heart desires.  I am in the technology field so I love messing with things.

Here's the flip side.  Someone (many) tinkering with this setting and mistakenly/accidentally set it to 10M (or even 5M instead of 50M as they intended) somehow...why/how you ask? These things just happen, and more often than you think.  Fast-forward...RTH activated and drone crash into a structure on its way home.  So here we are again, reading long threads from really pissed-off "many" someone complaining about how dumb DJI is to EVEN allow such a low threshold.  Why DJI would think 5M setting threshold would ever suffice and allow it to begin with?  What were they thinking?  You guys should be laughing at this point because you KNOW this can/would happen.  

Why 20M?  Did they just throw a dart and it landed on 20 so they started coding for 20M minimum?  If I have to guess, they probably had a meeting, or possibly 2, to discuss this very topic and decided that it's probably a good starting number (~ 65FT) to clear most standard structures; like houses, trees, light poles, etc. for the RTH flight before they started coding.

Things like dummy-proof and features & functions that fit the "general user population" come to mind.   

Have fun and be safe everyone!     
MP

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-3 15:05
Yes, I do understand cruise control.  It's you that's missed the point.  The point being, you don't ...

Aloha nigel,

    It is the engineering you fail to understand.  In the car they are part of the same engineered system and that system is very different from the flier's world.  RTH bypasses the processor controlled sticks in a separately engineered subsystem making it much faster because it is more direct.  In the car the pressure on the brake first cancels the cruise control as it then applies the brake.  In the car it is one dedicated stroke.  In the P3 it is one of four possibilities that the processor has to figure out.

     But, the bottom line is that the speed of the RTH cancellation would only make a difference if one is not flying safe in the first place.  Flying unsafe is to be discouraged.  Indirectly, this speed of the RTH system supports your and Paul's effort for a new approach to RTH.  Maybe it will be in the next gen RTH system?  But then DJI is already doing it and yet you are criticizing them for not doing it fast enough for the two of you.  Neither one of you reads, or maybe just do not understand the manuals, so how should we expect you to understand the development strategies of DJI enough to hold your tongues and have some patience.  Apparently the new Inspire manual says what Paul thinks the old manual did not say but that makes no difference to Paul.  Do you even care what the new manual says about RTH or are you like Paul?  Paul's way or the highway!

Aloha and Drone On!

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-3 15:01
The RTH button is the fastest to stop RTH?  Do you know that?  How long is the pilot's reaction ti ...

Aloha nigel,

     You seem to have summed it up.  Have you ever flown a high tech quadcopter like a DJI product?  Probably not because the technology is very new.  I just bet you do not drive a horse and buggy any more either.  That is because it is old technology.  But a lot of that old buggy technology is still in your car.

     Your drone flying experience is going to get seriously upgraded and RTH is part of that upgrade.  So, you and Paul better get used to it and stop living in the past.

     Remember now, if you read the manual (maybe you and Paul should have a manual reading party), flier control of the sticks is available at any time after RTH initiates.  All you have to do is push the RTH button and the Go app even warns you in some cases so you can prepare for it if you like.  You do not have to wait until you get up 20 meters to get control of the sticks again.  Just push the RTH button and control is yours.

Aloha and Drone On!

Sometimes it's impossible to see the drone even when it's not that far away. The white color of the drone and a bright sun can make it almost impossible to see.

One concern I have about RTH is that the landing spot is not exactly where it took off. I've had a scary incident where the RTH was a bit off and it wanted to land too close to something. Thankfully I was able to take control of the drone. Ever since then I have been practicing manual landing.

I'm guessing the RTH landing spot being a bit off is normal?

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-4 02:45
Aloha nigel,

    It is the engineering you fail to understand.  In the car they are part of the s ...

Ok, you keep implying I haven't read the manual & am a complete idiot who would rather complain than understand it.

In reality, I have read the manual & made an effort to go over some parts several times to ensure I understand it fully, hence I read threads such as this one in case I'd missed something.  It turns out I had either missed the part about not having control up to 20m or it hadn't registered as a problem, maybe because I had read the manual trying to digest all the information before flying for the first time.  Inevitably you miss parts when learning something new.  Unlike yourself, I don't know everything or expect others to.

Now, having gone over RTH procedures several times in fine detail & testing some of the theory myself, I still believe there is room for improvement.  That is all.  I am not complaining or suggesting the manual is wrong in some way, just suggesting there might be a better way of doing things.

If everything were perfect, there would be no need for firmware upgrades for things like batteries suddenly causing problems in colder weather.  DJI need feedback from customers using their products to make improvements & as far as I can see they do a good job of implementing them.

All I'm doing is trying to suggest what I feel would be an improvement in safety for the drone.  I haven't crashed & don't need to defend any mistake I've made.  I don't ever expect to need RTH because I fly within 500m max & always start flying back once the battery falls to 40%.  Only once have I seen the low battery warning come on at 30% at which time the drone was above the home point.  That is how I intend to fly as far as possible.

I don't understand why you have a problem with any of that, or why you keep insulting my intelligence.  Just because something's in the manual, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon.  I'm asking questions to further my understanding & maybe highlight areas for improvement, whereas you my friend, seem happy defending everything because it's written in the DJI Bible.

If it makes you feel better about yourself, then yes, you're right & we're all wrong, we're all stupid...checkmate to you.  In the meantime, I'll keep trying to improve things around me, rather than just insulting people & their ideas & suggestions.

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-4 02:15
Aloha Paul,

     You really have got a problem with reality.  For example, here you want to have  ...

FYI CAA (UK) Regulations

Article 166 states: -

3. The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions.

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-3 23:43
FYI CAA (UK) Regulations

Article 166 states: -

Aloha nigel,

     Not the same in the US.  Sorry for your loss.

Aloha and Drone On!

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-3 23:26
Ok, you keep implying I haven't read the manual & am a complete idiot who would rather complain th ...

Aloha nigel,

     My sincere apologies for any misunderstanding.  With your consistent support of Paul and his mistaken comments about RTH and 20 meters, I though you had cast your lot with him and his efforts to disrupt the instructional value of this thread.  Obviously, I was mistaken.  Again, my apologies.

     BTW, this commentary of yours was one of the best commentaries I have read in a month.

     I do not blindly support DJI in their efforts.  I only admire and am a fan of excellent and superior engineering and design.  But even the best have screw-ups.  And the depth of a company is seen in how they handle set-backs.  But beating them with a stick does not help any situation.  Unfortunately, you were a little too close to the swishes of the stick and I made a mistake.

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-4 10:46
Aloha nigel,

     My sincere apologies for any misunderstanding.  With your consistent support of ...

Thank you.

I do think the rise to 20m altitude is an anomaly though.  Even if it's never changed, at least after this discussion I'll be fully prepared for it, once I've had chance to test it in real flight.

Personally, I use ear buds with my iPad when flying as it's the only way to always hear the warnings as they're not very loud.  I rarely look at the screen except for framing shots & checking flight telemetry (I use my P3P primarily for photography) so on-screen warnings are often missed.  I imagine, if I didn't have the earbuds in I would very easily miss the warning about RTH.

Reading some of the stories on this forum, I expect many people either don't hear or see the warnings, which means their first sign of a problem is the aircraft ascending at over 4m/s without any input.  I expect most people would take a minimum of 1.5 seconds to make a decision on what to do once they realise the sticks have no effect (press RTH), then maybe another second for the response to have an effect (this to be tested).  That's a minimum uncontrolled ascent of 10 metres, or 33ft!  That's a crash indoors in most buidings, or as many have found, when flying among trees.

The easiest solution would be to have a setting in the app to switch this feature off, or better still, to modify it's behavior.

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-4 13:11
Just to fill in a  little extra detail for you , Nigel.

That quote is from the ANO (the Air Naviga ...

No worries Paul

I'm hoping to get into commercial work later this year, so will have to brush up on all the regs as I go.

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-3 03:35
Aloha Adil,

     Yes, the Phantom 3 has this feature and many others.  If you read the manual tho ...

Dude what are you even talking about, I already have lots of experience with the Phantom 3 and am aware of almost all features. I simply stated that they had that feature since the OP had said that they should add it..

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 22:54
Nigel, if you have the Phantom (especially the P3P), would you care to do an experiment for me, ple ...

Hi Paul

Managed to get out & test it at lunchtime.

With both thumbs on the sticks & watching the aircraft hover at a fixed altitude of 4m, the best I could do was about 6m of ascent before it stopped, although a more typical reaction was 10m of ascent.  A large part of the delay was between pressing the RTH button & the aircraft stopping, similar to in the flight sim.

As you can imagine, there's no way I could not be expecting it, so I'd be surprised if I could get anywhere near those figures had it been unexpected.  Climb rate peaked at around 3m/sec.

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-5 16:19
Thanks, Nigel.

6m of ascent before it could be arrested?

And here's what it actually looks like ascending 8m (with trees for scale).

Imagine having to react to this unexpectedly...
.

DillPickleAdil Posted at 2016-1-4 16:07
Dude what are you even talking about, I already have lots of experience with the Phantom 3 and am  ...

Aloha Adil,

     My apologies about your experience.  Your statement was ambiguous and I took it the wrong way.  Sorry for trying to help.  Happy to see you are aware of almost all the features.  I keep learning new ones and new ways to apply them.  Amazing technology.

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 17:50
What drivel are you spouting here? It is your statement which bears no relation to reality.

Aloha Paul,

     As I said before, you in Britain have my condolences.  The line of sight regulation that I was speculating about may be more strict in Britain than the US.  It is a VLOS in Britain according to your citations.  

     So, specifically, does the British regulation say that a UAS, less than 5 Kg, is required to use VLOS or is it a guideline?  If so, what is the citation so I can look it up?  

     You cite all kinds of good stuff, but does it apply to small quadcopters?  Do toys, and what is the mass limit, have to follow the UAS regulations?  If so, what is the citation so I can look it up?

     So, specifically, do quadcopters less than 5 Kg in mass have regulations or guidelines to follow in Britain?  Again, what is the citation?

     After numerous references to line of sight (not VLOS) in the small drone registration process, the FAA put a specific VLOS statement on the issued certificate (I just looked).  But then they concede that the "rules" are only safety guidelines.  We have a voluntary compliance FAA program over here.

     Even in theory, I would still have to concede you this one.  Guidelines and rules should be followed to the best of one's ability.  If the FAA slips it in at the last minute, it is still there.  Fortunately, this sideline has very little to do with the main thrust of this thread.

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 17:50
What drivel are you spouting here? It is your statement which bears no relation to reality.

Aloha Paul,

     You have repeatedly stated in this thread that the flier is not in control during ascent and that is because for some reason you equate stick control with aircraft control.  There are many ways to control an aircraft besides the sticks.  

     Tim and others are not saying, as you are, that the flier has no control on ascent.  That is the big difference you refuse to notice.  If fact ascent can be stopped by canceling RTH.  That is controlling ascent without the sticks because the flier was able to stop the ascent.  

     The best way to have control over ascent is to never ascend in the first place as you also consistently ignore.  There is plenty of time for the flier to cancel RTH and therefore the ascent.  If the flier flies the P3 or Inspire out of communication though (a violation of VLOS), and the flier did not set the RTH option to hover, then yes there may be an ascent if the RTH option set is not to land.  Even you concede that.

     If a flier who wants to fly safe, as opposed to a flier who wants to fly unsafe to prove a point, is given a low battery warning; there is a ten second warning.  In that ten seconds, the flier is able to get out of trouble, and on top of it all, the flier is able to cancel the RTH.  That is the designed system.  My P3 never gets far enough in the sequence to actually go into ascent because there is so much warning.

     All the RTH functions allow the flier to cancel RTH.  However, the critical battery warning that the P3 will land in ten seconds will result in the P3 initiating a landing.  But, that is not an ascent.  Even then, pushing the stick up - like you love to do so much - will allow the flier to hold altitude until the P3 falls out of the sky when the battery runs out, rather than the prescribed safe landing.

     Now, if you are not able to hear the instructions and information provided by the DJI Go app, you may not learn about the approaching RTH condition.  A safe flier is required to enable all warnings.  Some in this thread use earphones because they cannot hear the warnings.  Even then the display does indicate the warnings visually.

     If you buy the DJI product, and until there is a change, you have to work within their design specifications.  DJI does not design their Inspire or P3 for the questionably interpreted needs of Paul.  They design a safe system for the fliers who buy their products.  If you do not like the safe system DJI has created, find another product that complies with your dictum.  It is that simple.

Aloha and Drone On!

iPhrankie Posted at 2016-1-3 17:34
Sometimes it's impossible to see the drone even when it's not that far away. The white color of the  ...

Aloha Phrankie,

     If you are real careful with the IMU and compass calibrations, you can have really good accuracy.  I once had a flight straight up to 250 feet and about 200 feet from a pancake microwave tower.  The tower scrambled my signal and my P3 went into RTH.  I had already gotten my footage before and during the RTH and my P3 began to descend and landed without my ever regaining control.  My P3 landed in the same square foot it took off from.  I am sure it was just statistics, but it sure was crazy to see happen!

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-3 17:50
What drivel are you spouting here? It is your statement which bears no relation to reality.

Aloha Paul,

     When you fly your inspire, are you ever warned by the DJI Go app that the Inspire will go into RTH in ten seconds?  If so under what conditions?

     Is ten seconds long enough for you to cancel RTH so you can keep using your sticks?

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-6 12:20
Having checked on the manuals, it seems that only in the later versions of the manual does it mention the lack of control during ascent - this means that every pilot up to that point, who has watched his bird climb and tried using the sticks to modify its course is unaware of the fact that his sticks don't work (unless he was fortunate enough to discover this for himself in the sim - possible, but unlikely) and could not have realistically been expected to know this after digesting the manual provided with his aircraft.

This explains my ignorance & surprise about the issue!

The manual I have on my iPad actually says "User cannot control the aircraft while the aircraft is ascending to its failsafe altitude.  However the user can rapidly toggle S1 switch (I assumed that to be the only toggle switch on the remote?) to regain control to cancel the ascending."

Just before that, the failsafe illustration shows the RTH as adjustable altitude, which implies the altitude you set in the app.

Nowhere does it say it'll first ascend to 20m regardless of your settings or without stick control.  It does say you can cancel Smart RTH (initiated by the RTH button), but nowhere does it say you can cancel Failsafe RTH by pressing the button!

Also, Failsafe RTH is only said to be triggered in a lost signal condition, but the initial ascent to 20m AGL isn't mentioned anywhere else.

Time to download & re-read the manual then!...do I need to do that before every flight?  Maybe I should just go back to my Hubsan X4 which was constantly doing the same things, as expected.

skjlprince Posted at 2015-12-31 22:08
Got the P3S at Xmas. Haven't used it yet as I've been logging some time on the sim.  Going to attemp ...

Thank you very much Tim!  Very helpful!  Why would I not set my RTH altitude at 120 meters (394 feet, high but below the FAA guideline) so I'm sure to never hit an obstacle on the way back?

toddbonta Posted at 2016-1-6 14:55
Thank you very much Tim!  Very helpful!  Why would I not set my RTH altitude at 120 meters (394 fe ...

The phantom will use that height to calculate how much battery power is required to RTH, so you'll get less flight time if you fly at lower altitudes.

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-7 01:38
The phantom will use that height to calculate how much battery power is required to RTH, so you'll ...

I get it now.  That makes sense. Thank you very much for your reply!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-6 02:20
Actually, Tim stated "no control". I have made it perfectly clear that I am talking about no stick  ...

Aloha Paul,

     By now, you and others probably understand that sometimes I do find you frustrating in this discussion and frustration can lead to aggression.  My apologies for being too aggressive in this discussion at times.  I do have a tendency to keep pushing and going until understanding is established.  Unfortunately, my sometimes "brute force" approach is not a nice quality.

     We have now reached the cruxes of the discussion.  In this post you have stated clearly the difference between what we are trying to say.  In a way we have both been saying the same thing.  (The forum observers who know this are probably laughing their asses off about now.)
     *   *   *
     When I said, "There is plenty of time for the flier to cancel RTH and therefore the ascent."

You replied, "Wrong! You've ignored something that I pointed out earlier.

The app is so unreliable that it is almost certain to quit unexpectedly or to force the iPad to completely reboot at some point.  It cannot be relied upon, so I don't rely upon it. I use the output from the HDMI port to provide my telemetry having lost the app mid-flight far too often.

Yet, still the very situation to which I refer has happened to a fair number of Inspire pilots in the past six months or so - If that warning was so definite, it would not have happened to anyone.

It is all too easy to miss that warning (if, it is actually given at all) for a number of reasons.

A) The pilot is being diligent and has his eyes firmly fixed on his aircraft.

B) The app has crashed or frozen.

C) The pilot cannot actually see the screen of his iPad because it's such a bright day and may not hear the warning because of a noisy environment."
     *   *   *
     In this discussion, your complaint is that the software does not perform as advertised for you and therefore the use of stick control should have never been taken away from the flier.  I have tried to point this out many times, mostly by saying - if the software does not work get it fixed.  Flying software that does not work is unsafe.

     On the other hand, I am saying repeatedly, as you quote above, that the designed system is amazing and safe because the designed system works.  It works for me and it works for 99 percent of the fliers that own P3s.  It probably works for 99 percent of Inspire pilots to.  Obviously, it does not work for you.

     So to my way of thinking, I see you constantly saying that the system does not work (I add "for you") and I keep horning-in that the system as designed works amazingly well as it does for me and the vast majority of fliers.  I will be the first to agree that not all of the fliers of both P3s and Inspires completely understand RTH, and we both appear to agree that Tim did a great service with his introduction of this thread.  I myself have learned much more about RTH since this discussion started and the system as designed never ceases to amaze me.  The system as designed is worthy of my own and other's admiration.  Everything I have said about RTH has been as it is designed.  It is designed so that control of the sticks does not have to be lost.  Loss of control of the sticks only happens under three conditions; when signal is lost, when the flier does not cancel the RTH and when the app does not work.  

     You are certainly within your rights to express the opinion that because it is possible for the app to not work, then the system should have never been designed to allow control of the sticks to be lost.  I just do not agree with that opinion as I have the right to do.  We can agree to disagree on that point and we have provided an extensive record of just how much we can disagree on that.  

     Splitting hairs about what Tim said or what he meant is up to Tim.  Tim is very familiar with the RTH System as designed.  It is obvious that it does not work as designed for you and the losses you are burdened with would certainly make me worry, so I see your concern.

     About your work around for your problematic app you said, "Neat, eh? Did you just learn something? I hope so - I'd like you to benefit somehow from this discussion."

Yes I did.  I suspected something like that would work as we discussed such issues but never had to get that far.  I have only had the app crash on me once a month or two ago.  The new updates seem to have resolved that for me.  But, very resourceful on your part.  That is something DJI brings out of their fliers, most of them are very resourceful.  That is one thing that makes these forum threads so interesting.  I admire that in you just like I admire the DJI effort to show the Future of Possible.

     BTW, Androids have a new DJI Go app (2.5.0) to download for P3s and Inspires.  So you can expect one as soon as Apple approves it.  Maybe this one will address your problems with RTH.  We can hope since you appear to have suffered enough.

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-7 01:45
Good. I have no problem at all with that and have more respect for someone continuing to hammer  ...

Aloha Paul,

     Why do you keep proclaiming your incompetence as a purchasing agent for your company?  If I were your boss and I read half of the stuff you write in this thread I would have fired you long ago for not doing the research you were required to do before you wasted thousands of pounds on your Inspires.

     And then, you point out how easy it would have been to do that research that would have prevented that waste of money.  All you had to do was troll the DJI Inspire Forum.  After you wasted so much money, you suddenly do your research and learn that there are so many Inspire fliers on the Inspire forum that have had problems like yours.  Talk about incompetence; are you proud of your incompetence as a purchasing agent?  But no, you will not stop talking about how incompetent you are.

     This really sheds a light on the other claims you make in this thread.  Are you really as competent as you make yourself out to be in those other stories?  I am having my doubts even though I want to believe you.  But you really do nail some good ideas, that is one thing I like about you, so I think I will give you the benefit of the doubt.  

     Unfortunately, you are so upset with DJI that you fail to recognize the creative impetus that their products provide.  It is sad.  Kind of like a child brought up in an abusive household.  Unable to see or feel the joy of something because you feel you have been so ill-treated.  The rest of the fliers and I have immense amounts of fun and I will go so far as to say joy with our P3s and Inspires.  It is very sad that you are denying yourself that wonderful feeling.

     Now, why do you keep requiring that I lie to support your fantasy?  The vast majority of fliers and I have no problem with RTH and our Phantoms and Inspires.  You have a problem, not us.  Sorry, but I will not lie for you.

You say, "Even if everything else were working as designed, removal of the pilot's primary controls is still not a wise thing to do as far as I can see and you have still failed to offer anything which might help me to see the reasoning behind it."

Are you are displaying your incompetence again?  You clearly do not know how the RTH system works, yet you bad-mouth it every chance you get.  The RTH system as designed does not take control away from the flier.  It is plain and simple, but you apparently cannot comprehend it.

See, even again you incompetently say it,

"The system, as designed, takes control from the pilot - Explain how that is safer than not. You still have not done so."

Are you so incompetent you do not understand simple English?  Loss of control of the sticks only happens under three conditions; when signal is lost, when the flier does not cancel the RTH and when the app does not work.  

I will not lie for you to support your fantasy; plus, you are fired already because of your incompetence at purchasing.

     Unfortunately, your stubborn refusal to face your reality is an indication of deeper problems in your life.  I like you too much, and enjoy arguing, not discussing, but arguing with you; and it is so easy to turn you on your head and show how screwed up what you say is that it is getting to be unfair to you.  You need help, and this stubbornness you show on this issue is indicative of it.  If I keep playing with you like this, I am becoming more of a part of your problem.  I do not want to be part of your problem.  It is time for you to heal and get over your problem.

     Sorry, but the fun is over.  I will no longer participate in this thread.  I like you too much to keep treating you like this.  You are a good man Paul.

Aloha and Drone On!

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-8 10:03
Aloha Paul,

     Why do you keep proclaiming your incompetence as a purchasing agent for your com ...

"Loss of control of the sticks only happens under three conditions; when signal is lost, when the flier does not cancel the RTH and when the app does not work"

I'm sorry, but out of those 3 conditions, only one is designed in - when the flier does not cancel the RTH.

I could add more conditions but that'd just be pedantic

It's that one condition that's the problem, not all the other stuff that's padding out the debate.

It appears to be an anomaly without reason, to me at least, because it's only the first 20m of altitude where you have no stick control.  There is no obvious reason for this to be the case.

I'm not asking you for an answer, because you have no way of knowing.  It'd be nice if DJI could answer it though.

Cetaman Posted at 2016-1-8 10:03
Aloha Paul,

     Why do you keep proclaiming your incompetence as a purchasing agent for your com ...

As both a Inspire and P3P owner since their inception I totally agree with your comments surrounding the current functionality of the RTH, I live with it and doesn't stop me in my use nor that of fellow professionals. Paul is certainly very well known on the Inspire forum for varying reasons, having joined in the early stages. There is no doubt that having spent seemingly serious amounts of time on the sim application, now taken the UK certification and undoubtedly has a 'in depth' text book based knowledge of the aircraft. I'm forever hopeful that Paul enjoys the fruits of his labours and succeeds in getting his aircraft and indeed his business venture off the ground. I think the Scottish weather is holding back his endeavours but so looking forward to seeing his professional flying footage posted on the forum, come on Mr Kerry, we have waited long enough. Jim O'Hare needs to have some competition!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-9 15:59
I doubt I will ever be competition for Jim...

Aerial photography / cinematography (for the sake o ...

Paul, we all need to agree to disagree otherwise the posts become an absolute shambles, you made your point within the first few posts, if not the first one, don't take the bait, you are a better man than that

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-9 19:19
If I'd made my point adequately, there would be no room for argument. Likewise, if Ceta (and anyone ...

Paul
In light of your comments, maybe I should explain the rationale behind my views.
The RTH feature although not perfect is still fit for purpose in that it provides a 'get out of jail' option for the vast majority of UAV operators. It may not be to your own liking but even if DJI decided to alter and recode their software so as to allow you the option to either deactivate it or quickly override the 20m ascent feature, I doubt very much if the majority of users would take that option.

I for one fly on a almost daily basis in tight awkward access situations, never have I been in the least concerned that the RTH is suddenly going to kick in and I'll find myself jettisoned upwards without the ability to retrieve the situation. I accept its limitations, its never been a subject for concern or discussion with fellow professional operators of the Inspire in the UK or abroad for that matter.

Thats my honest view, its purely personal, majority seem to agree with that viewpoint, doesn't make either of us right or wrong, its simply a viewpoint not grounds for generating pages and pages of ping pong posts, maybe time to alter your method of operation within the forum me thinks.....

Enjoy your flying no matter what form it takes, hopefully onwards and upwards excluding RTH function!

PCTInspire Posted at 2016-1-9 01:39
As both a Inspire and P3P owner since their inception I totally agree with your comments surroundi ...

Aloha PCTInspire,

     Mahalo for that input!  I could not agree with you more.  Paul is extremely talented.

Aloha and Drone On!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-10 01:22
Thanks for your response.

I'll take your comments on board but feel that I should point out a coup ...

Paul

Excellent reply, extremely well formulated and hard to disagree. I think firmware 4 was when the RTH changed to the particular current ascent issue whereas the horizontal has been there from the onset.
That particular aspect is much the same of someone as ascending and deciding to flip it off in any direction skimming the grass and someone's toes. On balance I reckon I'd keep that aspect because of the ability to out manoeuvre any obstacle in the way.

Either way, keep posting on both forums, you'll see there is plenty to discuss here even more than the Inspire one, your knowledge will be invaluable, no banging the table though!

Just one other potential problem with RTH http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?m ... mp;extra=#pid287751

If I set 30m RTH height, it might only reach 20m in reality, as the reported altitude isn't as accurate as you may think!

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-10 18:24
This is also a little puzzling...

Confusion reigns, probably my fault, yes I thought we were discussing horizontal flight on the request of the right stick not the yaw, if that is the case then it us a matter of great concern. Have you experienced this yourself or does it emirate from other users? Such a problem isn't just minor it's a major flaw!
Currently on route abroad, touch of work beckons, within next  couple of days will find a large open space and test myself, standby...

Phil

nigelw Posted at 2016-1-10 21:08
Just one other potential problem with RTH http://forum.dji.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=39415&pa ...

Nigel, as per my latest post to Paul Kerry, will test this aspect as well, many thanks for the 'heads up'

Phil

PaulKerry Posted at 2016-1-10 15:04
I have put it to the test (currently only in the sim, but as the sim relies on the genuine FW of th ...

Hi Paul
Many thanks for the update, arrived  Santander with both aircraft, raining heavily and forecast for next 24 hours, Sod's law applies.....
Will check as soon as possible on both machines, please can you clarify one thing from the Simm test,  on the RTH from say the 20mtr mark, is the operator able to adjust flight path on all axis with both sticks?

Cheers

Phil