I just got an invitation to RPAS CivOps, and I'm reading through the agenda right now. Firstly I want to applaude DJI to lead a possible way forward when it comes to make drones more secure. But I also must say that now forcing a firmware/software solution on to existing customers of the hardware (drone) is not ok. It is not ok to fly into restricted airspace anywhere, but is not ok to force pilots to ask permission via a Commercial drone makers software, in order to fly! I should follow my countrys rules where I fly, not follow a Commercial drone makers softwares rules!

There are a lot of work made in the EU when it comes to what rules/laws will be force upon drone pilots, not just for flying but also when it comes to photography/filming. While EU talks, a lot of countries are now actively making and testing laws, sueing pilots and testing what laws that will apply and so on... Again, Yes, securiy is most important and I applaude every way that will make drones safer. But it should not be forced upon pilots until the rules/laws are set when it comes to hardware/software solutions that should control drone flying.

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-8 19:22
Hi . You will not need a device with a cellular device if you unlock the areas before flight .

Patrick you are missing the point. If you go on vacation and you are in an area without service you might end up going somewhere that you did not anticipate and then you are locked out.

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-8 06:22
Hi . You will not need a device with a cellular device if you unlock the areas before flight .

Hi Patick.  I'm not going to be rude or disrespectful in any more posts.  You and many of the DJI folks on this forum have been VERY helpful to a number of posters and I certainly thank you for that.

However, if DJI's position holds that you  must UNLOCK prior to a flight, you are missing a HUGE piece of the best part of photography - random, spontaneous, unplanned video or photo footage.  Ask any photographer and I'm sure a large part of their best portfolios are those random shots that they just happen to be driving by somewhere and said 'wow, I gotta capture this area'.

Many times I will just go for a drive looking for good areas to shoot photo/video at because unless you've been some place, you really don't know what areas are good areas to get good shots in.   Unless you allow me to unlock EVERY yellow zone at 1 time prior to going out flying (which I saw in another post that the number of unlock zones is limited) then you are handcuffing me and really making this experience and hobby no longer enjoyable.  The item that completely exacerbates this issue is whatever definition is being used to call an area yellow seems very random and very 'over-the-top' ridiculous from a 'control' or 'dangerous area to fly' perspective.....this needs to be an intelligent geofencing initiative and not just a 'we're scared about lawsuits so we better cover as much land that exists as possible".

You are selling this as a 'flying camera' but you are severely hampering the very thing that makes these aircraft enjoyable.

Flight Raptor Posted at 2016-1-9 00:09
Hi Patick.  I'm not going to be rude or disrespectful in any more posts.  You and many of the DJI  ...

I'm sure you've seen stuff like this before, however I get a sense these restrictions are coming in because of people like this...

Bat Drone. Geofence is not going to stop this retarded behaviour. He can still authorise and fly with stupidity..
Like somebody said. Nothing can fix and there is no known cure for Stupid. Geofences  certainly cannot help here!

DJI-Patrick Posted at 2016-1-6 04:01
Sorry , my fault !  I totally understand your concerns . Please don't be worried , most Yellow are ...

Patrick - I would take exception to your statement that MOST yellow areas have cell phone coverage.  In Alaska, the map is showing 5 mile radii around tiny towns / remote sea plane bases that hardly have satellite coverage much less cell phone.

The world is not Hong Kong, LA or even most of the US.

I see most of Yorkshire (UK) is a proposed authorisation zone.
Large parts of this area don't have mobile phone cover, and I have no idea what the 'risk' is supposed to be.
No way will I update to any firmware which imposes this nonsense.
If that means alternative product so be it.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-9 00:39
Bat Drone. Geofence is not going to stop this retarded behaviour. He can still authorise and fly wit ...

I totally agree with you and if you read some of my past posts i've been a strong advocate that Geofencing must NOT come in to affect.

However when a idea makes no sense to me whatsoever, I've tried coming up with several reasons to why DJI have done this and the whole reason behind it must be so they can't be sued or that they could report every drone user to the authorities that makes a mistake. Apart from idiots launching fireworks from drones ;/

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-9 12:59
I totally agree with you and if you read some of my past posts i've been a strong advocate that Ge ...

If a person fly with a drone into restricted airspace, DJI can't be prosecuted, it is the person who flew the drone.

No, the reason DJI have done this is to enforce their solution onto the market, to win the hearts and minds of the authorities, civil air organisations, councils and legislators. If DJI are first with an acceptable solution that hinders drones to fly into restricted airspace, well, then they have won a huge share of the market, because sooner or later all drones on the market will need to have built-in restrictions.

Now DJI forces this upon us before any other competitions does it.

I don't mind security, but I am very much against having to "ask for permission" via a commercial drone makers software, a company that is here to earn money of their customers, if I can fly. DJI have nothing to do with it as it is now! It is between me, the laws in the country and the airspace where I want to fly in and if I have clearence from my closest airport to flywhere I want to fly!

If/when, the laws says that every drone needs software for hindering it to fly in restricted airspace, then so be it, I'll get a drone that has that restriction built-in so I can legally fly.

Hey Guys, a few people been talking about "alternative photographic platforms" here's something that caught my eye.....,

http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/5 ... e-features-ces-2016

The Future Of "Not Always" Possible...? .. Well there still may be hope,..... "The Future May Still Be Possible"

Hopefully they (the link above) have the sense not to introduce Geofence like its being "Badly" implemented currently.

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-9 19:59
I totally agree with you and if you read some of my past posts i've been a strong advocate that Ge ...

Agreed.., with you and Rob.

I feel that the way DJI is implementing Geofencing currently, they are starting with the assumption that ALL pilots ARE idiots. So the behaviour of the Geofence Firmware is to Ground the Quadcopter until DJI give you the permission (authorisation) to fly.

The way GeoFence should be implemented (if/when implementation is inevitable) is Letting the P3 Fly UNLESS there is a GOOD REASON to Ground it!

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-9 22:59
I totally agree with you and if you read some of my past posts i've been a strong advocate that Ge ...

You are being incredibly naïve if you think that DJI is the only company that will introduce Geofencing. Give some thought to it, if DJI did this and it severely impacted their sales and not those of their competitors, they would be committing corporate suicide. They did not get to be a multi-billion dollar company by making stupid decisions. They MUST know that ALL drones will have to do this soon, and the reason they are implementing it now is to get the drop on the other companies.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-9 15:15
Agreed.., with you and Rob.

I feel that the way DJI is implementing Geofencing currently, they are ...

it does not take long to read through this and other internet forums to judge how the majority of folks feel about DJI's new geofence...
Im honestly  not really that concerned..... and the reason is the fact , I know that trying to implement somthing  this unpopular and (technically complicated) is doomed from the start.  
Competitors such as 3DR are foaming at the mouth for DJI to try and implement this.  Most people that are serious about photgraphy drones are only buying from DJI  as an alternative  to the price point and inconvenience  of building a custom bird.... if DJI impliments something this ridiculous, their market shares are going to disappear.   

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 09:23
You are being incredibly naïve if you think that DJI is the only company that will introduce Geof ...

Hey Geebax.

You make a good point,  and I think that Geofencing may become inevitable in the future... However there is NO Law today, anywhere in the world, that mandates it.

And even if it becomes mandatory due to any new law/ regulation that all manufacturers are required to follow, they will be given, by law, a timescale (say approx 12 months) after it becomes law, to implement it.

DJI does not have to do it right now.!!!......  For whatever strange reason, DJI currently seem to be shooting themselves in the foot.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-10 12:49
Hey Geebax.

You make a good point,  and I think that Geofencing may become inevitable in the futu ...

Again, you underestimate the ability of DJI to rationally think out this idea, you are not in possession of any information, yet your assumption is that DJI are idiots and will willingly lead their company to destruction.

And you are also dead wrong, there are laws about various zones, general aviation pilots have been aware of them and obeying them for decades. All that has to happen is an organisation decides that drones are to be treated like any other aircraft and they automatically become subject to those zones.

This whole idea is unpopular, and DJI are certainly aware of this, so you tell me, what is driving them to go ahead with an idea this unpopular. There is only one rational explanation, they HAVE to do it.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 09:23
You are being incredibly naïve if you think that DJI is the only company that will introduce Geof ...

I'm sorry but you are missing the point again?

There is NO law in any country requiring such regulation on UAV operators and where they can fly. As most people have mentioned this is an attempt by DJI to please civil aviation authorities across the globe, they are able to do this because they currently have the biggest market share in drone technology.
You should not be so naive to think that other competing companies will choose to exclude such a geo tagging feature in a bid to grab a large chunk of the market share. In fact i think other competing companies would be insane to implement this given there is no global regulation on this issue and the backlash it has caused with DJI consumers.

The main points are that if they really wanted to, those who want to cause harm or use drones for illegal activities will have the ability to bypass this geo function as long as they have the ability to create a custom drone. Many of us started out that way many years ago and many continue to use custom built drones today that are not restricted at all by consumer apps such as DJI Go, so this is basically a DJI thing, not something that will be industry wide

C_LUU Posted at 2016-1-10 13:53
I'm sorry but you are missing the point again?

There is NO law in any country requiring such regu ...

The reason I left this discussion before is because it is being driven by emotional rhetoric, not reasoned argument. Have you noticed that none of the seasoned, experienced members of this forum have bothered to engage this thread? Because they have figured out is it pointless.

You don't think the other manudfactueres are silly enough to do this? Well think again, here is an announcement about DJI and 3DR doing it: http://resourcemagonline.com/201 ... ed-airspaces/60531/

And read the specs on the latest Yuneec Q500 Typhoon: http://www.appy-geek.com/Web/Art ... &articleid=44449255

That's the three largest makers of consumers drones and they are ALL implmenting geofencing.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-9 18:06
The reason I left this discussion before is because it is being driven by emotional rhetoric, not r ...

There is no detail in that article about 3DR's System...and all we know about the typhoon is that it is aware of no fly zones..... rest assured that the other drone manufacters are paying close attention to how this is working out for DJI. You like to use words like inevitable and Emotional and rhetoric.
Rest assured that I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm going to get the tools I need regardless of what DJI does or does not do,  and I will  follow the laws of my county and  country in the process.
As far as DJI goes I simply hate to see such potentiall ruined, thats all.

AlaskanTides Posted at 2016-1-10 14:23
There is no detail in that article about 3DR's System...and all we know about the typhoon is that i ...

3DR is using the same company to develop its geofencing system as DJI, it says so in that news item, and if you read the full article on the Yuneec, at the bottom of the page it says it features geofencing. The point is they are all saying they will do it. And they are all smart enough to let DJI go 6 rounds with the public then announce it when the dust has settled.

I don't have a 'dog in this fight' either, but the BS being bandied around here is saddening.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 14:45
3DR is using the same company to develop its geofencing system as DJI, it says so in that news item ...

So....
      I'm Confused  .... I don't Understand Exactly what you are saying. (pardon my ignorance - in the politest possible way)

Are you saying that we should all keep quiet and let DJI implement, whatever the feel they want/need to implement, and have no opinion whatsoever until they have implemented it?

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 11:06
The reason I left this discussion before is because it is being driven by emotional rhetoric, not r ...

Please... do us all a favor and leave this conversation... again (even thought you never left)

Your comments are not contributing anything helpful, you are simply trying to rebut the concerns everyone seems to be expressing with subjective crap.

1. You seem to be the person using the rhetoric you described

2. There are plenty of experienced flyers contributing to this topic, some more vocal than others. Obviously this is not just restricted to this particular forum, it's actually being discussed on just about all UAV forums out there

3. The link that you provided - That is just an online article? hardly any information contained at all, and it doesn't even mention 3DR?

4. Typhoon? who are typhoon?

In case you are not familiar with DJI no fly zones, there was already a well working system in place that prevented quads from flying with 5km of airports and over stadiums, whilst i agree they could improve on that system, the system that is in Beta seems to be extremely over the top, and that's what people have the issue with!!

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-9 18:45
3DR is using the same company to develop its geofencing system as DJI, it says so in that news item ...

Im not arguing that certain forms of geofencing are not a good thing.... I mean we need a big red bubble around the white house and other sensitive areas.... For me its the degree in which its implemented.

For example if I'm a firefighter it would be nice to be able to monitor a fire.

If I'm a fish and Game agent i might want to keep track of animal in national Parks.

The list goes on and on....... from what I can tell Dji has no override codes.....

Laws are on the way...I am not blind.  but until we have guidance on what those laws will be... folks need to take a deep breath.

At some point the usefulness of a tool can become diminished to the point that it is no longer effective.. This can effect commerce and safety and communications and a multitude of other issues.  

Lots of things need to be considers here ... Ultimately The FAA is going to have to find a way to include this Technology into the airspace....  Even they don't have the power to do an outright ban. we have do no harm laws that have to be considered...  my point is....... this is premature. It will hurt DJI in the long run

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-10 15:02
So....
      I'm Confused  .... I don't Understand Exactly what you are saying. (pardon my ignoran ...

At the risk of repeating what I said several pages ago, if you want to have input into the process, send an email to Brendan Schulman at the email address he provided back on page 1. Brendan is DJI’s Vice President of Policy and Legal Affairs, as it says in the article I referenced. As long as I have been on this forum,. this was the first time anyone from the top of the DJI chain has invited input, so it is a rare event.

If you don't want to do that, then quit flapping your gums on here because it wont' do squat to influence what DJI do. You might think that DJI will come here to get your opinion on the idea, but the reality is they won't. This is a user forum and has DJI staff allocated to it to help users with their problems, the development people just don't come here.

Or... just bend over and take it.

C_LUU Posted at 2016-1-10 15:17
Please... do us all a favor and leave this conversation... again (even thought you never left)

Yo ...

Pardon? I have just as much right to participate in this discussion as you. I just don't choose to massage everyone' else's ego by having a gab fest where everyone is righteously indignant and agreeing with each other.

It's called an opposing view, and a fruitful discussion is useless without one.

NO! there are none of the experienced and respected members of this forum involved here, and that is a telling point. They have gone over to a parallel discussion on the same subject that is progressing in a more rational way.

Those news items are quite valid, and the first one directly mentions 3DR, can't you read the first paragraph. Here is another one, try and get past the first line: http://www.roboticstrends.com/ar ... restricted_airspace

And if you have not heard of Yuneec and their Typhoon, then perhaps your need to get out more often, there was even a thread about it on here: http://forum.dji.com/thread-29154-1-1.html and also http://forum.dji.com/thread-11661-1-1.html

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 15:20
At the risk of repeating what I said several pages ago, if you want to have input into the process ...

.... So we should basically have no opinion on the forum...... Hmmm, well that's a different way of looking at it.

One thing i do completely agree with is that there is little that DJI will do, to their GEO development roadmap, based on what is said in the forums.

gcvisel Posted at 2016-1-2 17:57
Face it, people, somehow we are going to have to learn to live in an airspace where people are al ...

Negative...  Not going to just "face it". This is a massive overreach and it will not play well with consumers.  

I appreciate this as an option for concerned pilots, but it should not be forced upon me.

Or at least, dji should be willing to buy back products from people who are heavily affected.  Looking at the restrictions, I won't even be able to power up my copter in my own home, or on or about my 11+ acre property.  How is that reasonable?

sifu128 Posted at 2016-1-3 11:01
This is the typical hardware software evolution with any product developed and sold. Take companies  ...

When you are in a situation like mine, where AI cannot fly on my own property, then yes...  You will absolutely sideline it and move on to another product.

C_LUU Posted at 2016-1-10 15:17
Please... do us all a favor and leave this conversation... again (even thought you never left)

Yo ...

C_LUU

Whilst I agree Everything you are saying in your post above, I also feel that Geebax is entitled to his opinion whether it contributes or positively or not...

We have no right to tell him to leave.

Jason (Posts #187 & 188) well put!

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-9 19:35
.... So we should basically have no opinion on the forum...... Hmmm, well that's a different way o ...

Yes.... They are trying to be pro-active as opposed to reactive.  I honestly think once the Frame work is in place they will start tweaking the system to start reflecting the laws of individual countries... I understand that.

I am just a bit shocked that this early in the game they have went as restrictive as they have... the big flaw I see in their system as it stands,,,, The Equipment requires the DJI network to work.  In my opinion this is the fatal blow.
No professional services or government agencies ( Fish and game, The fire department, Oil exploration, EXT.....)  or going to be interested in relying on DJI to operate their equipment.

And I certainly don't like having to  depend on DJI to operate my equipment.... This moves DJI out of the market for professionals and into the world of Amateurs and hobbyist.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-10 12:42
C_LUU

Whilst I agree Everything you are saying in your post above, I also feel that Geebax is ent ...

Apologies, it was a bit harsh the way it was written, although i was referring to Geebbax's own comment where they stated

"The reason I left this discussion before is because it is being driven by emotional rhetoric, not reasoned argument"

But if you read this thread you know he hasn't actually left the conversation, he is replying to almost everyone's opinion with his own (always opposite) opinion in a non constructive and usually insulting way. Its just frustrating that some people feel as though they have to tell each and everyone one of us why our opinion is wrong, especially when most people actually agree that there needs to be some sort of control in this area. Its just that the current Geo tagging measures most people feel are well over the top.

But i suppose telling us to forget about it and quite winging and to just deal with it are perfectly logical arguments and the whole point in forums like this.

Dacon Productio Posted at 2016-1-3 02:32
This is a typical KISS SPHINCTER by a company to sell outside their country.
DJI builds drones and w ...

They will quickly begin to care when people stop buying their products.  Market forces have a strong influence on how much a firm will care.

jason_m_bare Posted at 2016-1-10 17:38
They will quickly begin to care when people stop buying their products.  Market forces have a stro ...

But that's not going to happen. DJI are at the top of the heap for very good reasons, they make the nest drones. The rest of them are also-rans, 3DR have been excellent at releasing publicity, but their drone is severely lacking in features in comparision and actually pisses off more people than anyone else, and Yuneec is mostly a copy-cat.

The truth is that people will continue to buy DJI even though they protest like hell, for the simple reason that they have the best equipment. And the next two on the heap are doing the same thing with geofencing, so do you want to go and buy their brand of geofencing instead of DJIs'?

The reality here is that these manufacturers have been told, probably by the FAA, to either regulate this themselves or they (FAA) will step in and regulate it for them. And because the FAA represents the largest market for their products, the USA, DJI are bowing to that pressure.

You can take aim at DJI all you want, but it is not going to stop them, or 3DR or Yuneec and probably eventually all the others, from implementing geofencing.

All you can hope to do is have input to the process, and as several of you have already indicated, you are not interested in doing that.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 09:04
But that's not going to happen. DJI are at the top of the heap for very good reasons, they make the ...

If you have proof of any under hand deals with the authorties then please share. Becuase the offical stance of DJI has been they do not want to see any legal mandate from countries.


Q:  Should geofencing be legally mandated?

Based on years of actual customer user experience, we strongly feel the answer is “no.” This technology is being used by a wide variety of operators, who have differing types of authorization that can also vary by date and time. In virtually every area that might be a good candidate for a geofence, we have encountered authorized operators worldwide already engaged in compelling applications. Restricting the use of drone technology based on geographic location alone is not a good solution to the concerns that have recently been raised, and will hobble the beneficial future uses of a technology that is still in its infancy.



I undertsand this not proof they haven't actually been asked to implement this, but till someone can prove this it will just be a working theory.

You state that staff are just here to help with techincal support, however you will read that DJI employees's have been engaging on this topic and have assured that feedback is being passed on.

There's nothing wrong with a good debate and opposing opinions, I think people are jut concerned that you seem to just be saying, lets go along with it and theres nothing to do. If your opposing someone you need to offer why you support your side. I expected that you could come up with many points that supports DJI( and the conspirators behind this) to why this is a good idea. But instead you've just said that this is coming everywhere and theres nothing we can do to stop this. Which you might be right, sadly but i'd like to see change to the current format.

My main point tho,  this idea should be law lead !!!, law is created after physical acts and techonolgy. for example the car, not every road legislation was written before the car. Someone somewhere did something stupid and the govement decided this should be stopped. It wasn't the car manfactures that put stops to how we use them but the law.  It should be exactly the same here. If the goverments wants to make Geofencing legislation, then fine. (which you think has happened)

This topic may get repeative and go round in circles however I hope it stays current and doesn't fizzle away with the wind. We should aim to keep a healthy debate going so this thread stays on the front page so every new and potential Phantom owner can see what they are in for.

I wait hesitantly for your rebuttal ;)

The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-10 21:24
If you have proof of any under hand deals with the authorties then please share. Becuase the offic ...

"I wait hesitantly for your rebuttal ;)"

Looks like they have removed Australia from the maps for now

1 week ago DJI Geo Map


Today
DJI GEO Map


Airmap


Airmap US - to show Airmap is working


Looks like Airmap and or DJI are listening to our concerns - restricted space has reduced, even if only slightly

This GEO Fence may actually benefit me a little.  I live near an airport and am not able to fly in my yard.  If I am able to unlock the area around my home I could could then fly without driving every time I get the itch.  Obviously at a low altitude of 100' or less and always LOS.   I have been flying electric helicopters and small electric planes in my yard for over 10 years and understand the responsibility of using my head.  My yard joins several other large yards forming a huge block of open area where I can fly at or below tree level with no issues.  Most of the other areas I fly in, even out of town, are not affected by the current GEO Fence map as it currently shows.  Maybe that will change?  I guess we will have to wait and see.  

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-10 14:42
Can't wait for the GoPro "Karma" drone to be released in a couple months. Won't have to deal with al ...

And tbh that's another good point, most people on here agree DJI have the best drone on the market, and wish not to change.

But who knows what will happen, this market will soon fill up. DJI has done the hard work and now every complany knows what customers want.

The karma will be interesting to see, theres whispers through the grapevine that Apple are working on a drone. So I expect that in the next 5 to 10 years the market won't be lead by DJI and us consumers will have more of a choice to who to choose.

Two things will happen, people will flock to new drones and then look back at DJI and laugh bcause of the restrictions.

Or the law will change and everyone will then have to follow suit   either way because DJI are imposing this now, I feel the first may become a reality first, loosing customers before the broad expanding of geofencing.

What firmware will the geofence be added?  Anyone beta testing?