Davphys Posted at 2016-1-11 13:07
You should ask Brendan Schulman about that potential scenario. It sounds frightening.

I got it from the video DJI has on their website explaining how Geofence would work. It said on it that it would force the drone to land immediately if going into a NFZ.  Here's a link to that video where they mention it.  http://www.youtube.com/embed/YoXAMRQoIAA
Go to 2:00 minutes and you will hear that they say it.

I think it would be more sensible and safer that it would make it go home, not land.

Brendan Schulma Posted at 2016-1-10 22:16
When you bought the P3, it came with No Fly Zone that includes places where you cannot fly.  That  ...

When you bought the P3, it came with No Fly Zone that includes places where you cannot fly.

Does this mean that if we could fly before, without warning or refusal to fly or start, we will still be able to fly with no extra effort (prior self-authorization, etc.) with the GEO "upgrade"?

thumb Posted at 2016-1-12 05:57
I got it from the video DJI has on their website explaining how Geofence would work. It said on it  ...

what if that immediate landing happens over water or a highway you passed over or?

edit...sorry, see you posed that question, thankfully we are at least thinking about it!

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-11 16:23
EXACTLY- you hit the head on the nail.

I have read thru a good portion of this thread over the weekend and it's disheartening and makes me want to sell my P3P after just getting back from DJI repair last week.  I look up the Geo for my area and it's full of Yellow to the south of me which has nothing to do with airports.  There was a time this fall where I was flying every day.  To do the same thing and have to go thru authorization every time I want to fly will probably be a selling point for me.   Is there any possible way to avoid this Geo thing?   I have FW 1.6 currently  I'm just wondering if they push something out that will force you to upgrade beyond 1.6.

One thing that's not clear with Geofencing...the yellow circles. DJI says something like they just need authorization? What does that mean? Clicking "OK" in the app or calling an airport and getting a permit or something?

tpetersen97 Posted at 2016-1-12 06:35
I have read thru a good portion of this thread over the weekend and it's disheartening and makes m ...

They cannot force an upgrade into your bird as it is not connected to the internet (at least not that we know of!) and they cannot force updates to the GoAp on your phone/tablet...
You need to manage what gets loaded or not loaded, that simple, i have auto updates off on everything...
Unfortunately a number of things that came in the last update were not disclosed and those that have updated now have a dillema

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-10 22:33
Thank you for your responsiveness.

Per specific wording of the rule, I can't either.  In fact, the entire town is included, even the dealer's location and where he takes new owners to make sure they can fly and control their aircraft.  However, we do, and we do it responsibly.

I updated the app on multiple devices...     One IPad shows extreeme geofencing even covering small unused grass ships, which will limit flight in many areas,  on another IPad (both identical iPad Air 2) and on a IPhone 6 it does to show the same restrictions.   One these I could fly except for directly next to the main airport.  Checking the app version they all show to be updated...  I don't understand

BJ Woods
Forest VA

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-11 07:32
The unlocking is instant- it is just valid for 3 days.

Instant is true, but not necessarily for 3 days:  
If I understand the quoted line below correctly (on the site http://www.dji.com/mobile/flysafe/geo-system/unlock), than unlocking is generally valid from 12:00 am (midnight, independant of the actual submitting time) until 23:59 pm the day after tomorow. Instantly but not necessarily for 3 days (72 hours):  
"Please note that your zone will be unlocked for 3 days starting from 12:00 am today to 23:59 pm the day after tomorrow."
This would mean that if you submit at 23:59 pm the unlocking will be valid for 48 hours only...

What DJI has Effectively done with GO App update to 2.5 and how Geofence is currently being implemented is Take Away The Permission From You to Fly Your Own Quadcopter. Irrespective of whether the authorities in your area permit you to fly within regulation.  

So even if the FAA have no objection to you flying in a certain area, you WILL still need Permission (authoriization) from DJI to fly your toy.......!!

That to me is ABSOLUTE MADNESS!   

Looks like the Decision Makers at DJI have lost their Marbles!!

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-1-12 00:06
What DJI has Effectively done with GO App update to 2.5 and how Geofence is currently being implemen ...

I live inside a green "Warning Zone" and 4200m away from an "Authorization Zone" (yellow). I will try an "Unlock GEO Authorization Zone" next weekend.
I would not say that "decision makers at DJI lost their marbles".
To me it is more a clear indication that the whole drone stuff is getting very serious. And it might be more than just about safety/responsibility: Amazon and Google drones, agricultural use, SAR, etc., they all need regulated airspace and I think this is a partial dawn of all that.

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-12 00:42
Sure. But DJI can admit that many, many of their yellow zones are garbage. Or they can make it sim ...

You are right regarding the actual pace things now get shaped.
It is a kind of radical revolution taking place, but I think it is mandatory out of many reasons.
If nothing is done now by DJI (and competitors alike), there might be harsh regulations by authorities "more than soon", which would lead to a total grounding, I am afraid.
I would see it from another perspective: isn't it "nice of them" (the industry and government) trying to find ways to keep the hobby alive and compatible with professional (and governmental) applications?

EDIT: watching the yellow zones in my (German) area, they are around large and small airfields (enlarged no fly zones), and around some military exercise areas. Not a single "Restricted Zone" (red) here, but some e.g. in France and the Netherlands...
The 72 hours long "Unlock GEO Authorization Zone" option for the yellow areas IMO might be granted as long as no other events are registered (like e.g. flight shows or military exercises).
For "Authorization Zones" above and around nuclear power plants though I cannot imagine an authorization to be granted. In this case it might trigger another kind of submission...

sifu128 Posted at 2016-1-4 00:01
This is the typical hardware software evolution with any product developed and sold. Take companies  ...

I'm confused. I had my device set up to auto update, and I got the new 2.5.0 software.  I powered up my transmitter, device, and phantom 3 to see what it looked like.  On my map there are 3 RED no fly zone's very near me, but I am not in them.  I do not recall seeing those before....perhaps they were there and I didn't notice, but I doubt that.  I did NOT see any yellow area that would require authorization to fly.  There is a huge yellow area over me on the online map, but not on my app.  I didn't actually try to fly, but got to the point of ready to take off and the app said "ready to fly" in green.  But with the online map I am squarely in a yellow zone due to a large military base being in our community.  It is much more than a 5 mile radius.  This yellow zone was visible on the online DJI map, but not my app, itdidn't seem to keep me from flying though, or require any approval on my app. What is going on?  

Brendan Schulma Posted at 2016-1-11 03:29
"Why isn't there an overall opt out?  If there is no government mandate compelling this activity,  ...

Which government?  The government of the world?

There is absolutely ZERO other product on any market that physically prevents me from choosing when and how to operate it.

Try to imagine your car shutting down, if you try to drive within five kilos of a military base or airport or your refrigerator locking its doors, refusing to allow you to put that six pack of soda on the shelf because you are diabetic.

This is absolutely insane and a tremendous over reach of your capabilities.

I was literally HOURS away from buying BOTH a Phantom 3 pro AND an Inspire 1.

I have been aggressively researching this large investment and am VERY happy that I stumbled across this trash PRIOR to placing that order.

I'm wondering if we have a class action lawsuit here.  This is somehow a breach of contract, or at least bait and switch.  Who's with me?

Brendan Shulman said:

"Because if the industry does not present balanced solutions to safety issues, the government mandate that will be implemented will be terrible for everyone."

Bingo!

Here is something I can't understand: Two companies produce 'maps' of the same thing - no fly zones.  Both companies relied on the same source - Airmap.  Why is one (DJI) so much more restrictive than the other?  Why is one (non-DJI) more accurate than the other?  They both have the same source data.  I am not trying to change the debate here which is why I am not identifying the other app. (a lot will know what it is anyway)  I am just curious as to why DJI has chosen an implementation that applies a heavy hand at the onset and then relies on the consumer to correct that implementation for them.  It seems to me a minimal implementation would have been the smarter route to take.  More would be on board as more are conscientious fliers to begin with.  Then they could expand the 'reach' as problem areas are identified as actually being 'problems areas.'  But the implementation as I see it unfolding is just a disaster.

I just spent the last two hours or so comparing maps between DJI NFZ, DJI GEOFENCE, and ThirdParty NFZ App.  Then I overlaid that comparison to maps at scale from the FAA B4UFLY.  ALL of them are different.  No two agree and I looked at a large section of the country (all east of the Mississippi).  How are we going to have confidence in ANY system if no current systems agree - even within the same company?  This should not be in beta.  This should be in R&D until a real product that is reliable and at least somewhat accurate is developed.  A heavy hand is not the way to start.  An intelligent approach would be stick with what is known already (airports, stadiums, restricted zones) and expand as revealed to be needed or as particular event requires (holidays, events, etc.).

I have been doing RC for 4 decades.  There are two approved fields close to me (very lucky as I live in a very rural area) and only with DJI's implementation in GEOFENCE are these both NFZ.  I regularly go to these fileds for flying.  Now, I cannot fly my Phantoms at these fields without authorization from DJI, but everyone else there, including me, can fly all our other RC craft at will.  How does this even remotely make sense?

Wheezer Posted at 2016-1-11 14:36
Just how reliable and accurate is this map? DJI flysafe

I ask because the small municipal airport n ...

Wheezer,  Pittsburg, Ks.?   haha   the only thing you have to worry about is hitting a flying tumbleweed, I`m with ya, about 100 miles south of you, Same thing here, I live about 3 miles out of town, 3 miles from a municipal airport that a plane might land once a month.  

Northofthe49th Posted at 2016-1-11 16:42
They cannot force an upgrade into your bird as it is not connected to the internet (at least not t ...

You need to manage what gets loaded or not loaded, that simple, i have auto updates off on everything...
Interesting.  I see no option to disable updates for DJIGo.  Galaxy S5 and new iPad Mini 2 (haven't looked on the Mini yet).

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-11 20:49
Brendan Shulman said:

"Because if the industry does not present balanced solutions to safety issues ...

I don't like DJI assuming authority granted to the FAA.  Americans are Not going to permit a company, incorporated in a communist regime, to have any influence in US airspace.  Chinese geo fencing of international waters is unacceptable, they aren't going to geo fence my nation.  I will contact my elected officials and have them investigate the incompetence of our FAA.  The quote you provided was BS the first time it was posted as it is now.  Shulman is just attempting to hide that DJI will be adding a monthly subscription fee for activation of flight.  What the market will bear is their mantra.

Geebax Posted at 2016-1-11 16:49
Brendan Shulman said:

"Because if the industry does not present balanced solutions to safety issues ...

What you guys don't seem to understand is that the FAA is going to do what they want to do... Regardless of what DJI does or does not do. A government mandate is going to be implemented. You seem to  like the word inevitable.... Well Goverment intervention here is Inevitable.
The United States Government is not in the habit of writing legislation nor passing laws that are dependant on any Chinese controlled servers....
A Geo-fence is not what the consumer wants...And the US government dosent give a damn. So where does that leave us?

AG0N-Gary Posted at 2016-1-11 17:50
You need to manage what gets loaded or not loaded, that simple, i have auto updates off on everythi ...

From your iPad go to

Settings>i Tunes & App Store>look under automatic downloads ....change updates from green to grey.  

It got my iPad Air DARN!  .... but I had them turned off on my iPhone 6S so at least i still have that..

From the App on my iPad it seems like they have gone easy on Alaska... the only red zones are right in the areas of the Airport's and other sensitive areas. The yellow areas have been removed  (these bother'd me the most) mostly because I don't like relying on DJI to use my bird.... This appears to be VERY REASONABLE.   I'm only concerned about what they plan to do in the future.

Davphys Posted at 2016-1-12 10:42
Sure. But DJI can admit that many, many of their yellow zones are garbage. Or they can make it sim ...

They would be just referencing a data base , wouldnt matter if no planes had flown out of it for 10 yrs if its on the data base its included  .

AG0N-Gary Posted at 2016-1-12 03:50
You need to manage what gets loaded or not loaded, that simple, i have auto updates off on everythi ...

Yes, we can choose not to update our firmware/software. But, there are quite a lot of issues with the current firmwares that is prohibiting professional use and safe flying. As an example, focus problems with X5, higher bitrates not implemented for PAL, and we have the vibration issues on Phantoms. If I want to use my X5 for good for professional work, I must update to a newer firmware (if they fix those issues), and that firmware will likely have the Geofence. So really, it is not so much of a choice.

outlaw@unitedwi Posted at 2016-1-11 20:35
Wheezer,  Pittsburg, Ks.?   haha   the only thing you have to worry about is hitting a flying tumb ...

Wrong side of Kansas!  No tumbleweeds here up against the Missouri border and a hundred miles (and a bit) due south of Kansas City.  The local airport is fairly busy for being non-commercial and has business jets flying in and out fairly often.   That's why I'm surprised to not see it marked on any of the maps I've seen.

Correction:  I just checked the map on  http://knowbeforeyoufly.org/air-space-map/ and it has my local airport shown with a five mile "notification required" yellow circle around it.  I stated before that the local R/C club used to fly right at the airport, so I do not see an issue for me.  After all, notification ≠ requiring permission.

Here is the problem for me. I live in Alaska. If you know anything about Alaska you know there are literally thousands of small private airports all over. If I do it the legit way, I have to request 4-6 areas to be unlocked prior to flying. This is complete BS. I will not be doing any business with DJI and I have given them a ton and put up with the glitches here and there. Also, before anyone goes off on me about safety, I am a private pilot, I own my own plane, and I typically fly with a VHF radio when I fly so I can talk to other traffic if something comes up. This is horrible though. I have a thousand dollar paperweight. I will be complaining to Apple App store as well, that the version that was just released was not upfront with all the changes.

AlaskanTides Posted at 2016-1-11 20:24
From the App on my iPad it seems like they have gone easy on Alaska... the only red zones are right  ...

The entire matsu valley is Yellow zoned. I am not sure where you are talking about.

Monopdrone Posted at 2016-1-12 02:24
I'm confused. I had my device set up to auto update, and I got the new 2.5.0 software.  I powered u ...

Like Monopdrone (297) I had my device set up to auto update, and I got the new 2.5.0 software. - What shoud I do now??

Best regards
Bo

Flipperman Posted at 2016-1-2 10:56
I agree ref the airports etc but the 'authorisation' zones are completely over the top. The U.K. aut ...

You must be near Bicester I'm guessing? I'm in Bicester too.

Nasher123 Posted at 2016-1-12 09:39
You must be near Bicester I'm guessing? I'm in Bicester too.

I have just taken delivery on my P3S and am concerned by this new GEO fencing.

Looking at the UK maps it would appear that the main problem is the listing of Areas of Intense Aerial Activity (AIAA) as warning areas (ie needing to unlock them to fly) as being the main reason for large parts of the country being yellow.  

I'm in Newark Notts which is a small town in open countryside, but its covered by the Lincolnshire AIAA.  The AIAA are generally a hang over from when the RAF has a much bigger fleet and there was a lot more activity ref training for USSR invasion!  

If the AIAA areas could be removed from the authorization zones it would make things much easier for people to understand the restrictions, eg you're near an airport.  As it stands the app would let me fly over Manchester city centre, but not over farmers fields over 15 miles from the nearest airport.

Anyone know a way to get an old version of the DJI Go app?  I'm not switching my new P3S on until I can get version 2.4.3 installed on my iphone!

Nasher123 Posted at 2016-1-12 09:39
You must be near Bicester I'm guessing? I'm in Bicester too.

Yep - about 8miles away.

Flipperman Posted at 2016-1-2 11:26
I've just noticed that authorisations are only valid for 3 days !

Complete madness. Flying with a  ...

Some perspective here please folks. Was the update a little underhand in the way it was implemented? Yes. DJI you really need to be more transparent with the content of the updates. This just looks like you didn't want people to know until It was too late to complain and that isn't the way to get buy-in from a group of people, particularly on the issue of safety.

BUT

The community as a whole needs to bear something very important in mind. Firstly, you may have purchased a drone as a toy, but the moment you start flying it in someone else's' domain, you gotta remember that you're the new guy on the block and you're using your toy where a long established community (commercial and general aviation) has operated to a high safety standard for a long time.  It's like you bought a skateboard as a toy and want to use it on the motorway / freeway. Yes, it's for recreational purposes, but you're using it in a potentially dangerous place. You can't complain when someone wants to protect both sets of users (old and new) by introducing separation.

The second thing is that aviation is based on safety above everything else (and that includes your frustration, irritation and inconvenience - they don't even factor). If you have a no-fly zone where previously you could fly unencumbered, it may be for a good reason, and it may be not. The ones that are not can be argued against and modified if appropriate.

But when I got to the airport (grass strip or major) I want to be confident a drone won't get sucked into the aircraft engine just because a guy with a toy doesn't want to be inconvenienced.

rb.wilkinson@gm Posted at 2016-1-12 11:36
I have just taken delivery on my P3S and am concerned by this new GEO fencing.

Looking at the UK  ...

Hi there, I am also a proud owner of a P2A, however I like many others are worried about the Geo Fence issue. I currently use an iPhone using IOS for the DJI Go app, however my phone updated to the new version 2.5 yesterday. Thankfully I haven't turned on the P2A...yet. However as I had not backed up my iPhone to the PC for a while I have not got a copy of the 2.4.3 version of DJI Go for IOS.

Therefore was wondering if it would be possible for somebody that does have the 2.4.3 version installed for IOS to take a copy of the application file for IOS (if they still have it on their iPhone) and make available...I am sure a lot of other people would also greatly appreciated...especially by me!!!

Thanks all.

Anderjon Posted at 2016-1-12 11:57
Some perspective here please folks. Was the update a little underhand in the way it was implemente ...

I too am keen for a drone not to cause an air disaster.

The only issue I can see is the inclusion of AIAA's as authorization zones.  Even the CAA are looking at whether AIAA still have relevance.

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=87322

Also AFAIK one does not need to inform anyone of your intention to operate in AIAA's, they are there purely as a note to pilots that there may be increased activity in the area.

Wow, eight pages of comments!  I just now saw this thread.  Wish I had seen it sooner.

It is quite obvious to me that DJI implementing geofencing in this manner is simply DJI's best plan to protect DJI.  There is no gov mandate.  There is no one telling them what to do.  True, DJI may see some writing on the wall but right now, they are simply protecting themselves.  (Of course, in the US, they may actually be shooting themselves in the foot.  We'll see how it all plays out.)

Personally, and I know that no one really cares, I think the idea of geofencing is a good one.  As someone above stated, we're newbies to the aviation space.  We really do need to cooperate with one another in order to avoid tragedy.  The technology that created drones may also save them.

Therefore, a private company should not plan and implement the geofencing on their own.  There should be an industry effort, with input from everyone concerned.  I work in electronic systems and this type of cooperation is called a 'consortium'.  Consortiums collect data and come up with 'plans' that are best for all concerned.  These plans are called 'standards'.  When everyone knows the standard, it is much easier to produce viable, bug-free solutions that are acceptable to the greatest number of those involved.

I am very wary of any company that implements its own standards for something that effects so many.  Something is not right here.

$.02

Brendan Schulma Posted at 2016-1-10 23:16
When you bought the P3, it came with No Fly Zone that includes places where you cannot fly.  That  ...

"When you bought the P3, it came with No Fly Zone that includes places where you cannot fly.  That system is inflexible.  The new system allows you to self-authorize in those areas, and is responsive to concerns from many users who were unable to operate at all in places where they had authorization.  We released the new system as public beta to gather feedback on what would work best at balancing safety and security concerns with operator decision-making.  Thanks."

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. The ability to fly in what are current NFZs is a good thing.

However, the areas I am concerned about are near (in most cases) smaller airports or private/seasonal airstrips.b NONE of these are currently NFZs. I have flown in these areas -I even live inside of one.

Theses areas are going from "unrestricted" to "authorization required." Most of the ones in upstate NY are in areas with no cellular coverage. Many of these are also arond privaate airstrips with almost zero traffic. Some are effectively closed.

It all comes down to this (for me).... these restrictions did NOT exist when I purchased my P3. If they did exist, I would not have made the purchase. From all evidence, you will be forcing this system on me. We can debate the finer points, but the fact is that it will either restrict my ability to fly or cause a major inconvenience when the system allows me to fly. This is not what I signed on for or agreed to.

DJI is not the government or the FAA. You may believe you follow FAA guidelines or rules, but the only body who can actually create those rules and provide for their enforcement is the FAA. You believe that this system will prevent a more restrictive system being required by the FAA. I disagree.

I believe this complete "lay down and take it" approach will only embolden the FAA to  dictate more rules and restrictions. They know you will roll over, so they will simply keep "asking" you to add more restrictions (nstead of following a legitimate rules making process). I see this as solving a problem which doesn't exist.
I deal with govenement entities. I understand when the person you deal with "asks" you do do things or implement systems. They do so because it is impossible to get the same made into an official policy or way of doing business. It also means that things change at the whims of individuals - they ask for changes and new prgrams because they know you will do whatever it takes to apease them. "If you give a mouse a cookie..."

I also see an ulterior motive in this. DHI has the resources to create and implement such a system. What about all the other manufacturers, large and small? If you are successful in getting the FAA to adopt your system as "acceptable regulation" then all the other companies will have to implement the same. They will either take resources away from product development or be forced out of the business.

Sure, conjecture and opinion. My main point remains - this system is MORE restrictive for all the areas I fly/plan to fly. You are fundamentally changing and limiting the way the product operates - after the sale. I believe this is ethically and fundamentally wrong. It is a breach of the sales contract, whether or not a court would rule as such (although I wonder if a class action suit is in your future).

My only concern at this point is how much I will be out of pocket if I decide to sell my P3. When the authorization scheme become mandatory, my P3 will likely see little, if any, flight time. All this has turned me off a hobby that I planned to get into. It has certainly turned my off DJI products entirely.

If DJI is doing this for the right reasons (however misguided) I wish you the best of luck in the future. It will, however, be a future without myself as a customer.