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Geofence
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dacofty
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Davphys Posted at 2016-1-10 22:42
Can't wait for the GoPro "Karma" drone to be released in a couple months. Won't have to deal with al ...

I'm pretty sure every drone maker will be adding this because the governments want it
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The Bat Drone
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dacofty Posted at 2016-1-10 15:27
What firmware will the geofence be added?  Anyone beta testing?

I don't know what firmware it is, but it would be good to see who's been using the beta and see what feedback they could share with us on this thread, pro or/and cons.
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AlaskanTides
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dacofty Posted at 2016-1-10 06:28
I'm pretty sure every drone maker will be adding this because the governments want it

The government wants a lot of things..... and while they defiantly have a strong voice, They cannot just demand you do something, not with out established laws in place to validate said demands. .

The big picture here is that this is a new technology that has huge potential, Agriculture, Medicine, Public Health and Safety, Surveying- mapping and engineering. Inspection and quality control of huge construction sites at a fraction of the cost of helicopters and airplanes.
In the USA there are laws in place to specifically address issues like this.
IF the government (DID)  tell DJI  that a geo fence is mandatory @ this time.... That would be illegal.  
They can certainly move forward with an agenda however (unless its a major issue of public safety or national security) they cannot force corrective action.
we already have laws in place for safety and geofence for sensitive places..... therfore the FAA would be hard pressed to find a valid reason to ban anything right now....  They are forced to find a way to include this technology into the airspace.... and they are doing that.  We just need to give them time to do their jobs so we can have guidance on what direction we need to take.
At this point anything else is speculation and premature.
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dacofty
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I'm not saying it's mandatory atm but I bet it will become,  I don't believe DJI is doing nothing this just for the hell of it
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martijn.kriens
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I must say that I like that DJI is trying to be responsible in this. I am also a pilot (single engine) and after playing around with my drone (that unfortunately crashed due to power failure, hope to get a new one soon) and must say that I was amazed how fast and high these drones can go. One a Phantom would hit my window in the plane there is a significant change of breaking the window.

Looking at the map for the Netherlands it all seems to be authorization zones (even Schiphol, the major airfield). I am surprised this is not restricted much more. The place where I live (Arnhem) is in a CTR zone for the airfield, even this is just authorised zone.

I can imagine that rules will get more precise. Rule in general aviation is that you are not allowed to fly below 500ft from the ground (1000 feet above the highest building in residential areas). Helicopters often a bit lower like 400 feet. So flying below 300 feet in general should not be a problem. No doubt these rules will get better. Also, asking authorisation before taking flight is not that strange, it is what I also have to  do when taking of with an airplane.
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martijn.kriens
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In the Netherlands at the island Vlieland there is a big airspace meant for low flying target practice for F16's. You would expect that these are restricted zones? The only restricted zones in NL seems to be the homes of the royal family, government buildings The Hague and the prison for the international court of justice in Scheveningen. I would say that in some parts rules can be eased at altitudes below 300 feet but should be stricter at some locations like low flying military practice areas and areas for emergency landing practice for general aviation?
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DaGunn
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In the United States of America the airspace above our country is the responsibility the FAA and the american citizens it employs.  Congress did not give DJI the power and authority to authorize flights or control the activity of american citizens.  If there is to be geo-fencing within the United States the FAA must implement it, not some Chinese company.
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martijn.kriens
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DaGunn Posted at 2016-1-10 21:07
In the United States of America the airspace above our country is the responsibility the FAA and the ...

When I look at the airspaces shown at the DJI website they are using the ICAO airspaces. In the US supplied by FAA with a addition to very high density areas. I recognise the airspaces as areas that reach to ground level from my own flying. CTRs from airfield, military target practice areas, low flying areas for military jets. In these airspaces with a normal plane you need to contact air traffic control and preferably file a flight plan before take off.

So these are not set by a chinese company but by the FAA. I agree usage is too strict now since the whole area needs approval even below 500 feet even though that often is not necessary (in most of these airspaces planes are not allowed below 500 feet unless for landing on a runway). But this more precise information is not generally available except in general rules and what air traffic control or the tower tells you. I can understand that for DJI using the normal airspaces from ICAO is the easiest way to be responsible and even workable with the authorisation.
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AlaskanTides
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martijn.kriens Posted at 2016-1-10 11:41
When I look at the airspaces shown at the DJI website they are using the ICAO airspaces. In the US ...

Maybe you might mean, They  have possibly used certain charts that were obtained from the FAA and related resources?  If you have any proof that this geo-fence is either FAA approved or mandated by the FAA please provide it.... otherwise you're assumptions are no better the any else's.
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martijn.kriens
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AlaskanTides Posted at 2016-1-10 22:30
Maybe you might mean, They  have possibly used certain charts that were obtained from the FAA and  ...

I am not saying that the FAA approved of this but that they used the normal ICAO airspace classification supplied by national aviation authorities. Of these they use the airspaces that start from ground level. They did not think up these airspaces themselves.
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martijn.kriens
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AlaskanTides Posted at 2016-1-10 22:30
Maybe you might mean, They  have possibly used certain charts that were obtained from the FAA and  ...

Also look at it from another perspective. Flying is dangerous but we made it save by precaution and discipline. As a pilot I have to know all the relevant airspaces when flying, I have to read the relevant NOTAMs before taking off (these tell you about special temporary airspaces and if military spaces are active). I do get a bit nervous about too many drones being flown by people that have no clue about the risks created for planes. This type of getting authorisation can be a good way to force people to be better aware of the risks in the airspace they are flying. Can it be improved:sure. But something needs to be done to keep planes safe.
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DaGunn
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@martijn.kiens  Thank you for the pilot perspective, but when is the last time that you had to seek authorization from the manufacturer of your airplane before taking flight?  
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Hi guys...I'm probally not adding much weight to this interesting topic but I will say this much.....for right or wrong, Geofencing (Beta or not) has personally given me every reason not to spend the £900 I was about to spend on the P3 (After months of research) I find the whole thing disapointing to say the least!  Amost gone down like a lead balloon.
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martijn.kriens
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DaGunn Posted at 2016-1-10 23:15
@martijn.kiens  Thank you for the pilot perspective, but when is the last time that you had to seek  ...

But that is because there is a lot of regulation from the authorities through flight plans and air traffic control. Drones are a new phenomena where there are no regulations yet. There will be regulations no doubt since it is dangerous, more dangerous than many realise. My P3P recently fell out of the sky because of a power failure. You can seriously harm someone. And I am afraid that with the rising popularity of drones with users that have no clue about these dangers very strict and limiting rules will follow, in this case rules by the FAA and other aviation authorities.

As far as I can see DJI is trying to find solutions for these dangers in a way that is acceptable to all. If we do not come up with these solutions the aviation authority will limit the use of drones in a much more complicated way I am afraid.
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rcdad2
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I'm just looking at the yellow zones and most if them are small grass fields for crop dusters and ultralights. One of them is lucky to 2 planes a year. There isn't even a tower to contact.
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perseas
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DJI told us that it is better for all to self-regulate their drones than to wait authorities to  impose strict geographical no-fly zones without any control from the user and I find it quite rational. This is a new technology and the legislation is behind in many countries. Especially in the States where is the greatest market share for DJI. No one can guarantee that the GEO won't be abused in the future, some hypothesised  it may become a pay-to-fly system. But as things currently are, a geo-fencing solution can be a very viable approach, the airspace is much more complicated than our 2D ground traffic system and thousand new drone users enter every day, without any idea what might happen with that easy to fly drone.

In my opinion, a better implementation of the DJI GEO system is needed,  to be more open, not just 3 days, make it 10 days at least and the yellow areas to become green with a warning, while only the red ones to require authentication. I don't know, if the noflyzone.org plans to increase  or change the yellow zones due to military activities or live events via on air updates, hence the need of authentication. Maybe an electronic signal emitting from the drone like the airplanes would be less obtrusive than to register every 3 days.

And for sure, the main culprit is some of the drone users (“how high can it fly” & “I will fly wherever I want”). Education can prevent disasters, while a careless drone pilot with a geofence equipped system can create them. The Phantom is so easy to fly and this is a serious issue for someone new, because he may underestimate the consequences of his actions. Whatever system is put in place it will depend on how people use it at the end of the day. Educated people take their responsibilities in whatever they do. Ignorance and idiocy can be cured with a proper training. Geofencing alone doesn't solve the problem, but ensures that if you did something wrong, you'll be found and if you didn't do it, you're in the list of suspects.  If I were DJI, I wouldn't let anyone fly, if they haven't passed successfully some hours in simulation mode and a few basic tests of understanding the proper conditions of flying a drone. It may seems to be a toy, but it is definitely not and needs training.





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C_LUU Posted at 2016-1-11 00:49
"I wait hesitantly for your rebuttal ;)"

Looks like they have removed Australia from the map ...

As has been explained elsewhere, the system is in Beta test right now, and Australia is not part of the test so the zones have been removed to avoid confusion. They will be back.
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Davphys Posted at 2016-1-11 01:42
Can't wait for the GoPro "Karma" drone to be released in a couple months. Won't have to deal with al ...

Who says GoPro will not implement geofencing? And you would be jumping the gun to say the Karma is going to be any better than the current DJI offerings. GoPro still have to live down the Session camera, which was a complete failure.
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AlaskanTides
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martijn.kriens Posted at 2016-1-10 13:27
But that is because there is a lot of regulation from the authorities through flight plans and air ...

You bring a good perspective.... It is a perspective that we are quite aware of however... We have been discussing  the Idea of public safety and danger to existing aviation traffic all along on this Thread...At this moment I'm in favor of DaGunn response.

We know that regulations are coming...these regulations will come regardless of what DJI will or will not do. It is pre mature to  burden  the consumer into some complicated and failure prone system, until we even know what those requirements will be.

I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to be surprised... IMO this is not going to just effect consumer drones but also existing aviation traffic as well... theres lots of items to be considered here. industry using drones for commerce is just as valid of  a use as transportation... this means that this technology is going to have to be incorporated (not Banned).

I personally see a future full of new aviation laws regarding altitude limits and requiring registration as well as communicating with aviation authorities and  submitting required flight plans.. not to mention we are going to have to have electronic signature emitters.  

The last thing we need from DJI is an already burdensome GEO-FENCE that may or may not be related to new laws.... from my understanding of FAA procedure,  they could care less about any third party system they are not directly in control of.  

this is a healthy debate and i certainly hope DJI is reading this forum... lots of ideas and food for thought. when we are not at each others throats.
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Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 04:04
But that's not going to happen. DJI are at the top of the heap for very good reasons, they make the ...

It ABSOLUTELY WILL happen when people cannot fly their products.

Listen, all throughout the history of the world, there have been people and or firms at the top of any given product line, only to lose that edge at some given tipping point.  

Example, when was the last time you had an RC Cola or rented a DVD from Blockbuster video?
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The Bat Drone Posted at 2016-1-11 00:24
If you have proof of any under hand deals with the authorties then please share. Becuase the offic ...

'If you have proof of any under hand deals with the authorties then please share. Becuase the offical stance of DJI has been they do not want to see any legal mandate from countries.'

I don't need proof, all of this is out there if you bother to go looking on the internet. I posted links to these reports. Of course they do not want any legal mandate, they want to put together a system that THEY control. If you read the news on this, the leading drone manufacturers got together in a conference in the US to discuss the issue. And the FAA was definitely present, it was reported as such. It does not take much to work out that the message was 'regulate yourselves voluntarily or we will regulate for you'.

Otherwise, why would competitors get together? Why would they issue press releases announcing they are going to implement geofencing systems?

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Geebax
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jason_m_bare Posted at 2016-1-11 13:58
It ABSOLUTELY WILL happen when people cannot fly their products.

Listen, all throughout the histo ...

Yeah, what are you going to buy? There is a flurry of fancy proposals out there for the 'Phantom Beater' and as yet none have materialised.

3DR screwed up bigtime with their attempt, Yuneec is not out there to review yet, Karma is still being developed. Lily is marketing bullshit, the list goes on.

And once DJI have their GEO system up and running, it will only take one country to make a rule requiring all drones to have a system of similar specification, and every other drone maker will have to comply in order to sell in that country. So, who you gunna call?

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AlaskanTides
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Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 18:19
'If you have proof of any under hand deals with the authorties then please share. Becuase the offi ...

In my opinion there are some serious flaws.....in you're argument

1)  The FAA cannot force or intimidate private business into following non-existing laws.. They can offer advice and offer counsel on what they hope future laws will be.... Nothing more

2). Regardless of what Dji , 3DR or Mickey Mouse do... The FAA is going to regulate drones in United States airspace ,   And they definantly will not be reliant on some 3rd party system controlled by China to do it.

I'm not trying to be rude.... But unless you can offer proof that the FAA is forcing DJI to do anything.... Then it is just speculation , the fact they may have attended some conference is irrelevant. Nor would it be unusual if they were to do so.





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ranges Posted at 2016-1-2 18:41
I live in a national forest
This is really fantastic DJI


National forests don't present aviation safety or security issues, so will be, at most, warning zones.
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Brendan Schulma
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Flipperman Posted at 2016-1-2 19:26
I've just noticed that authorisations are only valid for 3 days !

Complete madness. Flying with a  ...

I'm playing catchup here (sorry for delay).

The unlock is instant via DJI Go when you are flying at that location.  The 3 day period only applies to unlocking done via the flight planner (for people who don't have internet at the time of flight).  Also, we are working on additional options.  
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Brendan Schulma
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[RCG]Balthazar Posted at 2016-1-2 21:58
It does look like someone had some fun with your customers.You havent hired some under cover techs ...


Looks like some inapplicable large zones were coded by the airspace provider.  That's why we are doing a beta.  Please send specific error reports (with ID number) so we can adjust these.  Thank you.
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Brendan Schulma
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bletzinger Posted at 2016-1-2 22:32
The proposal is too restrictive around regional airports with small aircraft .

Recommend a combo  ...


MANY small airports are warning zones.  Please see the following notes for specific information:
http://www.dji.com/flysafe/geo-system/details#notes

If you have a comment on a specific airport, please send the zone ID so we can check it out.  Thank you.
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Brendan Schulma
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aliios Posted at 2016-1-3 06:47
3/4 of a country??  Ok here we are !!!  All Cyprus is a NFZ !!!! No one can fly there !!!!!!

Just ...


The restriction you see in the eastern Med. is for manned aircraft and will be removed after the beta.  
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Brendan Schulma
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jrm11 Posted at 2016-1-5 01:54
I have been looking over the "unlock" DJI map showing the restricted and authorization zones.

I li ...

When you bought the P3, it came with No Fly Zone that includes places where you cannot fly.  That system is inflexible.  The new system allows you to self-authorize in those areas, and is responsive to concerns from many users who were unable to operate at all in places where they had authorization.  We released the new system as public beta to gather feedback on what would work best at balancing safety and security concerns with operator decision-making.  Thanks.
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AlaskanTides
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Brendan Schulma Posted at 2016-1-10 19:07
Looks like some inapplicable large zones were coded by the airspace provider.  That's why we are  ...

I think the argument here Brendan is that most place we fly don't have Internet.  most folks engage  in this hobby Well away from the cell towers of the cities... Most of us are wondering what purpose this feature is going to serve...

furthermore what assurance do we as consumers have that our equipment will continue to operate if DJI servers are shut down?
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Brendan Schulma
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Geebax Posted at 2016-1-5 12:02
My wife specialises in industrial law. The key thing is not to get trapped into this thinking that ...

Australia is not part of the initial launch, and the map is not a representation of what GEO will look like there when it is launched.
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Brendan Schulma
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jeffreyfjohnson Posted at 2016-1-6 05:15
Which government organization provided the information concerning which areas are to be NFZs?  Is th ...

Our aeronautical data is provided by AirMap, sourced from government and third-party sources.  
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Brendan Schulma
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lenw Posted at 2016-1-10 22:15
This GEO Fence may actually benefit me a little.  I live near an airport and am not able to fly in m ...

"This GEO Fence may actually benefit me a little.  I live near an airport and am not able to fly in my yard.  If I am able to unlock the area around my home I could could then fly without driving every time I get the itch.  Obviously at a low altitude of 100' or less and always LOS.   I have been flying electric helicopters and small electric planes in my yard for over 10 years and understand the responsibility of using my head.  My yard joins several other large yards forming a huge block of open area where I can fly at or below tree level with no issues.  Most of the other areas I fly in, even out of town, are not affected by the current GEO Fence map as it currently shows.  Maybe that will change?  I guess we will have to wait and see.  "

This is a good example of why we are moving to a self-authorization or "unlocking" system.  The goal is to enable operations, not restrict them.  I think the main concern we have heard is how off-line unlocking will work (i.e. without an internet connection), especially for spontaneous flights, and I can say that we are working on various options.  Thank you.
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Brendan Schulma
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Geebax Posted at 2016-1-10 12:20
At the risk of repeating what I said several pages ago, if you want to have input into the process ...

"If you don't want to do that, then quit flapping your gums on here because it wont' do squat to influence what DJI do. You might think that DJI will come here to get your opinion on the idea, but the reality is they won't. This is a user forum and has DJI staff allocated to it to help users with their problems, the development people just don't come here."

I'm in charge of GEO, and I'm here.  Sorry I've been tied up with CES lately and didn't check back sooner.

By the way, here's a video of my remarks to FAA Administrator Huerta at CES:
http://roswellflighttestcrew.typ ... ration-program.html
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AlaskanTides Posted at 2016-1-11 12:20
I think the argument here Brendan is that most place we fly don't have Internet.  most folks engag ...

"I think the argument here Brendan is that most place we fly don't have Internet.  most folks engage  in this hobby Well away from the cell towers of the cities... Most of us are wondering what purpose this feature is going to serve..."

This is comment I have received most often, and we are very engaged in responding to it.  One interesting side note is that others in the industry (not primarily DJI) have been talking about unmanned traffic management premised on having drones and/or operators connected to a traffic management system.  Seeing how many responses we are getting from people who say they fly in places without connectivity is pretty interesting, and I'm going to take that as feedback to the larger industry.  

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Davphys Posted at 2016-1-11 12:30
I certainly hope you are working on additional options. If I go to the roof of my building I lose w ...

"I certainly hope you are working on additional options. If I go to the roof of my building I lose wifi reception and unless I purchase a cellular tablet with its data plan I would need to use the preflight authorization option.
Edit: and I have complete authorization to fly in my area. "

You could unlock in your home, and then go to the rooftop.  You don't need the connectivity once the zone is already unlocked.  It stays unlocked for 24 hours.   If you use the web based planner instead, it's three days.   (Those numbers may change; this is beta.)  I know that's not a full answer for the larger point, but would actually work for you specifically.

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