Wim.berends68 Posted at 2016-2-20 05:36
My drone did not went into ATI mode. At a certain moment it did not respond anymore at all. Creati ...

That's a bloody interesting article in Forbes, it gives me both hope and dismay.

1) Hope in that the CEO acknowledges an issue that some DJI employees and supporters consistently say doesn't exist. Even more hope that the CEOs preparedness to do so will inspire the DJI employees to "own" the issue a little more and look at cases like this one a little more objectively and be less ready to jump on the "user error" bandwagon.  For this case I believe the evidence shows:
* Did the users action contribute to the loss? - possibly.
* Could the user have taken actions to reduce the risk of him contributing to the loss? - absolutely! (and hats off to him for acknowledging this for the future).
* Is this a fly away? - possibly (there is just not enough evidence to rule this in or out)

2) Dismay in that there seems to be an arrogance from the CEO that has brought other market dominating companies crashing down. I hope his clear passion for excellence and preparedness to acknowledge when things aren't right drive decisions for longevity. George Eastman, very early on, nearly sent Kodak broke by recalling a bad batch of plates that were sent out that didn't meet his quality standards. He may have almost bankrupted the company doing so, but it was that very action that gave the company the reputation for uncompromising quality that still persists to some extent today even though subsequent leadership displayed the arrogance that lost the company their market dominance.

mike.wildlight Posted at 2016-2-20 08:37
That's a bloody interesting article in Forbes, it gives me both hope and dismay.

1) Hope in that  ...

"* Is this a fly away? - possibly (there is just not enough evidence to rule this in or out)"

There's not a shred of evidence to hint at suggesting that the Phantom in this case flew away.
It's ridiculous to suggest anything other than the simple explanation of losing signal behind a large obstruction and RTH into the obstacle.
It's more than stretching things to say that there's a  possibility that something else happened.

article was published in May 2015 just after the release of the P3 and is referring to the earlier Phantoms that did have more hard to  explain losses.
With  the P3 these are remarkably rare.
It sounds like no DJI product would ever be perfect enough to completely satisfy the  CEO and his obsession with perfection.
That's good if you're buying his products but it sounds like he'd be a tough boss to work for.

Wim.berends68 Posted at 2016-2-19 15:41
There you go

The article is in Forbes; http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryan ... naire/#2328636c210c

I have heard that and I agree with him.

Note he said certain models, I would guess he if mostly referring to the Phantom V2 vision and vision plus. Having owned 2 of them I can attest that the OEM gps antenna was not real good, it worked(most of the time)...

It was not uncommon to lose gps midflight and the when it drifted with wind out of site it was gone..

Many long term users upgrade the GPS antenna and did some others mods that actually were implemented in later model.

I don't think his comment is about the P3 ,  My P3's are WAY better gps and control .

anything that flys can get lost or crash , many things can happen

good luck and have fun flying!

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-2-20 08:09
"* Is this a fly away? - possibly (there is just not enough evidence to rule this in or out)"

Ther ...

Geez buddy
What is it about the word "possibly" you don't understand?
It is something that there is not enough evidence to rule it out. Investigations 101- a known issue is a possible cause or contribution in the absence of other data(if you won't take it from me-take it from the CEO of DJI). Can't rule out a bird strike either or aliens or the bogey man, but some are more likely than others.  There is ZERO evidence that RTH was ever initiated (at this stage). There are some pretty reasonable hypotheses put forward but I haven't seen one that explains all the facts without using words similar to "may", "could", "might" or the like.
Bleet as much as you like about it but that is the simple truth.

BTW from the article "Wang says he was a no-show at DJI’s April launch of its new Phantom 3 in New York because “the product was not as perfect” as he expected.". This is a good thing, shows they actually do product testing eh? Later in the article he states "Phantom is “not a perfect product” and that some models have been known to fly away from users because of software malfunctions" There is no distinguishment between earlier or later models in this statement or if indeed he was referring to versions or individual aircraft. But, also investigation 101 - If  revB had a particular issue that same issue is a suspect in a failure of revC until proven otherwise.

Agreed, he would be an absolute bugger to work for.

Anyway, enough energy spent on this from me, believe what you want, happy skies!

OP's video clearly shows he was too low behind those high rises and lost signal, could of RTH, hit the building and spun into the pond. Hard lesson to learn, sucks.

mike.wildlight Posted at 2016-2-19 23:02
Geez buddy
What is it about the word "possibly" you don't understand?
It is something that there  ...

There are always possibilities, even when facts are apparently proven beyond a shadow of doubt.  But a line must be drawn somewhere.  Courts of law rely on probability & many people's lives change or even end because of it.  Everyone ever proven guilty is possibly not guilty...
The probability is as most have pointed out, that the aircraft flew behind the building, lost signal & RTH straight into the building.

nigelw Posted at 2016-2-20 09:33
There are always possibilities, even when facts are apparently proven beyond a shadow of doubt.  Bu ...

Never said it wasn't "probable" but unlike you others have made absolutely definitive conclusions in the complete absence of facts.
Irks me no end, but hey I'm a pedant, scientist and qualified investigator and have an endless passion for truth and fairness.

Like I said, enough energy from me has been spent on this, happy skies

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-2-17 15:03
Is it possible to overlay the path on a Google earth map and then look at it in 3d and/or zoom in.
...

I'm surprised no one has answered this yet.  It is totally possible to do this.  Even though the OP has posted the flight record in Healthy Drones, it seems that only the account holder can download the file for this.  He needs to go into one of the HealthyDrones General tabs where it has a link at the bottom saying Download KML  or  Download KML with notifications. You then open the kml using Google Earth.  You are then able to visualise the flight path in 3D and zoom/pan/rotate etc.  If you also turn on 3D models, you can often get the map to overlay 3d buildings.  If you include terrain information, you can recreate the environment and look at it from the home point POV.  From there you can see if there are obstructions that would account for loss of signal etc.

From the records, it seems like there were constant high northerly winds which may have blown it into the back of a building.  Tall buildings tend to have their own weather systems and wind usually blows upwards across the face, sometimes making rain fall up.  If the aircraft was blown into this wind system, it may have been pushed into the wall and up into somebody's balcony or the roof.

endotherm Posted at 2016-2-20 16:17
I'm surprised no one has answered this yet.  It is totally possible to do this.  Even though the O ...

Nice instructions to get the full view of the flight. I noted them so if others want to see their flight in that much detail.

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-2-19 18:09
"* Is this a fly away? - possibly (there is just not enough evidence to rule this in or out)"

Ther ...

I think this is a fly off - drone acting strange, using controls to get it under control, flying off without registration of flight data and drop in the ocean

endotherm Posted at 2016-2-20 08:17
I'm surprised no one has answered this yet.  It is totally possible to do this.  Even though the O ...

Wow, that's awesome!  Thanks for pointing that out.

endotherm Posted at 2016-2-20 16:17
I'm surprised no one has answered this yet.  It is totally possible to do this.  Even though the O ...

Endotherm. That is flipping Awsome!!!!   Exactly what I was looking for.  I'm going to try it with my own data to see how it works.  If the wind blew it towards the building then it may be possible to almost point out the floor/balcony it crashed...., You are a genius bud!!

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-19 09:56
If you lose GPS because of buildings then it will go into ATTI mode and. The GPS is going to get g ...

"The GPS is going to get good readings or none at all."

Good to know for sure,
Thanks.

microcyb Posted at 2016-2-19 09:31
You nailed it on the head.  
As a newbie myself at least, a fly away has never happened, and I hav ...

• DJI-Ken: "Actually I don't know of one single case of a P3 fly away."
  

Just to be clear, for those that are reading this but haven't read the entire thread, the above quote is something DJI-Ken said, not me (though I agree with him). Sometimes the attributions on this board are a little misleading and it seems like I had said that for some.

• Microcyb: "I have striven to learn to fly without using the RTH even for landings."
  

RTH: I only use manual RTH when I lose sight of the craft. The rule is to fly line-of-sight, but sometimes when your craft is several hundred meters from you and you look away (we have to look at the remote from time to time), it is difficult to resolve that little dot in the sky. The caveats here are to make sure it doesn't fly into a building on the way back, and that your RTH hieght is set appropriately.

I always land manually. Even if I use RTH to get it back near me, I cancel the landing sequence once it is home and land manually. I don't even use the land-down icon on the GO app because my landings are a bit smoother and more precise in placement.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-21 00:34
"The GPS is going to get good readings or none at all."

Good to know for sure,

I meant that behind a building you should still get satellite lock. Unless you are between two  TALL buildings that are close together then you will reduced satellites. If you are flying 20ft up and are between two very tall buildings that are close to each other then the aircraft may see a few satellites and it will go into ATTI mode.
I meant that if there's only a few satellites locked on then the aircraft will not stay in GPS mode and it will switch to ATTI mode.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-21 00:47

DJI-Ken: "Actually I don't know of one single case of a P3 fly away."

You don't have to use RTH if you lose sight of the aircraft. You can also use the map view and just follow the green line back or use the radar as well.

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-20 09:11
You don't have to use RTH if you lose sight of the aircraft. You can also use the map view and jus ...

DJI-Ken: "You can also use the map view and just follow the green line back"

This is a great tip folks. I've noticed this as well and and happy about he fact that it works even on a device that doesn't have cellular like mine (so no map data, but the green line is there regardless).

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-21 03:11
DJI-Ken: "You can also use the map view and just follow the green line back"

This is a great tip  ...

Yes, it is nice, I would use this before using RTH.

To be fair to the newbies, DJI has  long, long way to go to make the enormous amount of technical detail easily available.  Yep, there is a lot of stuff around and if you spend a couple of weeks on the forums you will certainly pick up a lot of important stuff.

Reading the Fine Manual, not so much.

For one thing, the incredibly horrible UI on the DJI app needs to be fixed.  RTH height (the thing we've been arguing about here) is buried several levels deep.  Compass calibration mod values is even worse.   To do a preflight checklist I have to pop all over the UI.  That should be one screen along with some checkmarks and explanatory text.  Hire somebody that knows how to write user interfaces and is preferably a UAV pilot.  It won't take long.  But there is quite a bit of work to do to clean up the various creaky spots.  It's all there..... somewhere.

dji-p3p1 Posted at 2016-2-21 03:24
Endotherm. That is flipping Awsome!!!!   Exactly what I was looking for.  I'm going to try it with ...

Thanks for the praise, but the folks at Google deserve it more than me for implementing it.  I've been doing similar visualisations for years but it was only recently I discovered Healthy Drones did the kml conversion for us from our flight data.

I've noticed if you exaggerate the terrain height in GE options and zoom down to ground level, you can often see features of the terrain that are obscuring line of sight, which correspond with weak/loss of signal.  This is also true if you are flying in a "popular" area where people have modeled the local buildings and architecture so that they are available in Google Earth as a 3D model.  In this particular case in Israel, there are only a handful of buildings modeled.  Even though the 4 buildings in a row where the aircraft was lost do not have a corresponding model yet, they do cast a shadow.  Measuring the length of the shadow and comparing it to the length of shadow from a known building (e.g. the Community Center where the height is documented) will give you the ability to insert a rectangular block of an appropriate size to represent the building.  Indeed you should be able to approximate which floor was struck if you extrapolate the direction of travel.

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-19 15:27
Make that flight a favorite and sync your flight to the cloud.
I will give email this info and hav ...

Already looked?

Are you sure that there not was any power lines or any thing like that? Because if that´s the case the drone might have got lost.

WetDog Posted at 2016-2-21 05:43
To be fair to the newbies, DJI has  long, long way to go to make the enormous amount of technical de ...

I know the app is feature packed and it's just like anything, you need to play with it for a while until you understand where everything is. That's just the way it is because there's just so much to the app.
For beginners, I suggest playing with the simulator and studying everything in the app until you are familiar where everything is.
And compass calibration mod values, a beginner does not need to know any of those things. If the app says it needs compass calibration then calibrate it. And calibrate it at new locations like the manual says.

endotherm Posted at 2016-2-21 16:28
Thanks for the praise, but the folks at Google deserve it more than me for implementing it.  I've  ...

Awesome work you've done

Wim.berends68 Posted at 2016-2-21 19:20
Already looked?

I've email them.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-20 14:11
DJI-Ken: "You can also use the map view and just follow the green line back"

This is a great tip  ...

Not a spec

Cant you cache the maps of the area prior to flight?

My Shield doesn't have cell either and I just pop up GO where I have wifi and cache local area before I go flying.

good luck and have fun flying!

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-21 12:18
I know the app is feature packed and it's just like anything, you need to play with it for a while ...

Actually I would like to see a DJI GO lite app.

One that just has the flight contols and lgging etc.

separate the video editing and all the extra stuff that many of us never use or most likely will don't need.
I am one of those folks that use phone and tablets mostly for convenience. I hate small screens (I have 5.7 and 8' )
I have many pc's for viewing videos and editing etc.

The size of the go app is pretty large and I cant help but think a "lite" type of app would work with more devices and or better on current ones.
sometimes simple is better.

Just a thought I have pondered recently

kirk2579@aol.co Posted at 2016-2-21 09:32
Not a spec

Cant you cache the maps of the area prior to flight?

Yes you can cache maps before you head out, if you know where you're heading.

For those with wifi only (no cellular) on their device (this is for iOS, but you can probably cache maps on any device that has Google maps), follow these steps:

• Pull up google maps on your device while you're in wifi range
• Navigate to the area you want to cache
• In the search bar, type "Ok Maps" and hit Search.
• When prompted, press Download and if prompted, provide a name for the map.
  

There are probably other ways to do it as well. Please respond to this if you know a simpler way.

You can clear the cache, but I haven't found a method to just clear the maps (please let us know if you know how). You have to clear the cache for all apps with this setting (iOS specific):

Settings > About, Terms & Privacy > Terms & Privacy > Clear application data

kirk2579@aol.co Posted at 2016-2-22 01:40
Actually I would like to see a DJI GO lite app.

One that just has the flight contols and lgging e ...

The editing and all that other stuff in in totally different menus so you just don't go there. It's not like you have to pass through them to get to where you want.
But I totally understand that it's a very powerful app and sucks up a lot of processing power.
But if there was a lite version, I'm sure have would love it and half would complain that what they wanted in it is not there.
So they give everything to you and let you chose what you want to use from it.
I remember I was happy with my old iPad and the Pilot app and then I installed the GO app and no longer could use my iPad and had to buy a iPad Air. That's just how technology is and you have to keep up with it.
My 2011 Macbook Pro wouldn't even play a 4k video, so I installed a 500gb SSD and 16gb or Ram and now I can. It's just the cost of technology if you want to keep up with it.
Think about what the DJI app will be in 5 years, the newest device out now may not even open the app, but you'll be able to control the aircraft with your mind

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-21 13:48
The editing and all that other stuff in in totally different menus so you just don't go there. It's ...

Ken as a 30 year telcom/data tech and user I get all that

Just think sometimes software tends to bloat and add more and more that just confuses things sometimes.

Don't get me wrong, I have I7 and shield etc so horsepower isn't an issue here. Just as some posters note the many layers and sometimes convoluted pathways to choices make some a we bit hidden.
You are correct some would love and some would hate.
that is why full and lite versions would be ideal----CHOICE of which way to go.

It also might make it easier in long run for the app to be maintained efficiently.

after all some of us bought these to fly,  not edit , read book/manuals etc.
we got stuff for that that works real good.

it just an idea, I am not criticizing or complaining!

THINK MS WORD it has so much , that so few use or need, it confused and intimidates folks at times.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-21 13:27
Yes you can cache maps before you head out, if you know where you're heading.

For those with wif ...

I am sorry
I thought you did not know you could do that,
I must have misread your post.

I keep the whole tri state area on mine so I don't have to guess when and where. Its always there.

take care and have fun flying

labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-2-19 00:25
"after reading these fly-aways, signal losses, I am scared to leave line of sight as required anyw ...

Thanks for the link!

We all have been reading this thread so far (including yourself) and perhaps others similar so it is not even a consideration that this has happened or may happen again.  Yes, whether it is a new pilot error or an experience one that trusted his/her ability but a gust of wind pushed his/her drone behind a tree/building or a tower and signal is lost (short or a long while). There are natural factors to be considered which are part of nature hence the reason 737 mentioned on that link has a check list and many many safety features built in the likely event of an emergency.  

I am not trying to give anyone a falls information here or scare others like myself that fly-away happens. All I am saying that for the safety of people/animals that shares the planet with us must be considered before more and more laws prevents us from flying our drones. If all is untrue then as the encouraging link suggests and DJI is the leading market seller, i think it is about time to find and resolve this issue, I say - no matter it is a pilot fault or not. If a helmet is given to a soldier sent to a war it is because he may get shot, not because he doesn't know how to protect himself.

Also, as many commented on the link you have enclosed, as others also suggested DJI favoured, not that I have a problem with that I own one and I am a happy customer but it is not safety cautioned at all.  Technically speaking, there are problems with all drones, yes but it is manufacturers responsibility to address them first. We can do our at most efforts to eliminate accidents but it has been happening and it will continue to do so. Therefore it is best we come up with suggestions to help the developers than trying hide behind the facts to cause more and more problems for ourselves and I think these forums are also about that.

If you look at the 'ABOUT' page of that website also , it is not very hard to understand why they write encouraging words: Here it is I copied;

"Note – we are not paid or officially endorsed or related to any UAV (drone) manufacturer. We do make some income through various affiliate and advertising programs such as those from Amazon, Google, Share a sale, DJI and others. The drones we review are usually purchased by us at full retail price – however, occasionally we will be offered a review model from a manufacturer (which we have to return or buy after review)."

Safe flights!

Geebax Posted at 2016-2-19 00:28
"Just one question though, it is puzzling me a lot, why not DJI is trying to tackle this problem as ...

........well, huge issue may not be for you ans some others but authorities seem to disagree and trying to bring more and more restrictions on our drones. If all assured, we will have less worries to fly away and back within our flights, and less of these conversations would take place, right !?

DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-2-20 01:59
There would be less incidents if people just learned everything about their aircraft (manual, tuto ...

But, but, it's more fun that way. I mean, we're guys, we don't need any instructions

Nicola90s Posted at 2016-2-19 19:17
Why not look near that buildings? Are you afraid that you made some damage?!  I joke, I hope tha ...

Thats where I would check for sure.

meirzri Posted at 2016-2-19 04:40
Hi,
THANK YOU ALL, for your kind and imformative replays
I'm greatful for all your help and thought ...

The hint is right at the end of your posted video.  Did you notice the video breakup as you flew behind the taller building?  The lost flight could have had the same thing happen, and if you were a bit lower, perhaps the loss would be worse.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-19 11:05
"Actually I don't know of one single case of a P3 fly away. If anything gets screwed up the aircra ...

But what about when you do not lose GPS signal, such as in an urban setting between several tall buildings. Is there a situation where it can get bad (but strong enough to not trigger a loss) GPS signals to cause it to fly erratically?

ABSOLUTELY!  Multipath signal distortion to GPS (which is UHF and easily reflected) is very common, and should not be relied upon in any situation where there are obstacles higher than the receiver antenna.  Tall buildings (those are ~250 feet or more), canyon walls, all of that should be avoided when using navigation signals for guidance.  Even aircraft using simple VHF VOR signals are very susceptible to bad errors from reflections.  Been there, done that.

I think the OP will find his bird in/on one of those taller buildings, or in pond undneath.

Not A Speck Of  Posted at 2016-2-19 18:05
"Actually I don't know of one single case of a P3 fly away. If anything gets screwed up the aircra ...

Great! Added to my checklist.

WetDog Posted at 2016-2-21 07:43
To be fair to the newbies, DJI has  long, long way to go to make the enormous amount of technical de ...

Could not possibly agree with you more.

I don't understand the (seemingly) resistance to improvement changes.

Forget the technical details, even if there are user errors if you keep drilling down the "why" path you usually find a "systemic flaw" has contributed to that user error. What you describe is exactly that. I see this all the time in incident investigations.

mike.wildlight Posted at 2016-2-22 05:45
Could not possibly agree with you more.

I don't understand the (seemingly) resistance to improve ...

Correct mike. High level details usually found within the first 5 why's
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys

There are ususlly many more whys in different areas that make the bigger picture.