R&L Aerial  Posted at 2016-3-5 18:19
As matter of fact, I'm driving into town right now and I had to set my beer down to type in my res ...

Haha, thanks for that...the USA just entered the war & put a stop to it with no help from anyone else didn't they.

Hmm...I think if you check your history you'll find a German invasion on the UK was aborted before the US got involved, when they lost air supremacy.  You've heard of the Battle of Britain, no?  Maybe look it up.

What this has to do with anything is beyond me...do you think we should accept everything you say as being right?  Because Americans eventually got involved in the war?

nigelw Posted at 2016-3-6 12:56
Haha, thanks for that...the USA just entered the war & put a stop to it with no help from anyone e ...

I know you brits dont like admitting it and thats fine but whenever the british try an explain to me why the U.S. didnt save your butts in ww2 i take it as a thank you. And, your welcome.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-6 06:35
I'm pretty sure the logic is this simple and goes as such... "you fly out of visual range of the sma ...

ELOS only works for approaching larger commercial aircraft. Even though you can't see yr drone 1km away, you can clearly see the entire valley, know its location on the map, and can generally see larger aircraft from >10km away.

The problem would be if another drone was flying around the same area, trying to get the same shot.
I flew FPVLR in a remote area of NSW.., only to have my spotter discover another Phantom 3 flying around. I may not have noticed the other drone FPV, as the live feed is not great at picking up small moving objects.., and occasionally/often I am flying sideways.., hence I would not see another drone.
This will be happening more frequently as DJI hopes to sell more drones.

nigelw Posted at 2016-3-7 04:56
Haha, thanks for that...the USA just entered the war & put a stop to it with no help from anyone e ...

America is that dweeb who stands back during a brawl, side by side with your mates.
Then he comes in during the end.., all clean and rested.., kicks a guy in the ribs and claims it.

But seriously.., even when the US finally decided to stop selling supplies to the Germans and help (for their own reasons, not to help allies).., the German military still managed to hold their own.., even managing to push back allied forces at times. They were very smart.

If the UK decided to "pull a Yankee Doodle" and just bail.., I'm sure the yanks would have been slaughtered if they fought the Germans alone.
So.., for an American to say they won the war is a false assumption.., and possibly one of the many reason for the universal saying "as arrogant as an American".

Kit Walker Posted at 2016-3-6 16:31
America is that dweeb who stands back during a brawl, side by side with your mates.
Then he comes i ...

Your welcome as well.

R&L Aerial  Posted at 2016-3-7 10:24
Your welcome as well.

Ignorance and arrogance is a bad combination.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 10:36
Google:   "How Far Can the Human Eye See?"
Our eyes can see a galaxy 2.6 million light-years away.  ...

From my understanding, radio waves have near light speed, and infinite range.., but still require LOS to make a connection from transmitter to receiver.So technically Lightbridge does have the range.., but because your drone is smaller than the stars/planets you are seeing.., you'd lose sight after 500m or so.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 12:24
The radio waves have to be Transmitted at a strength enough to traverse such distance my friend.   ...

Thx 4d reply. I'm new to this.
Is it the power output of the transmitter that's weak, or the receiver?

nigelw Posted at 2016-3-6 12:56
Haha, thanks for that...the USA just entered the war & put a stop to it with no help from anyone e ...

Your to young to remember but during the Battle of Britain the British pilots could not even spell airplane let alone fly one, it was not until the volunteer American pilots trained the British pilots that the battle changed in favor of the British.

R&L Aerial  Posted at 2016-3-7 13:23
Your to young to remember but during the Battle of Britain the British pilots could not even spell ...

I've never heard or read of that.  Is it fact or hearsay?  I know American pilots had to lie about being American to fly at that time.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 08:55
What's the point of all of this bantering... No body cares..

No big deal, just giving these boys a little history lesson

microcyb Posted at 2016-3-5 00:10
I did a test with my Standard and was able to do 1.5 miles away when the bird was in the line of sig ...

I too am using the Standard and am trying to get a feel for whats safe.  At 1.5m I am assuming you were in a more 'remote' area that was wide open?  Were you able to maintain a video signal that far as well?  If you were what upgrades have you added if any?

Wolfiesden Posted at 2016-3-5 02:45
Um...no it doesn't

"Keep the aircraft within visual line of sight at all times"

I have to disagree with you on this, as you stated the regulations say 'VISUAL line of sight'.  Them stating 'visual' clearly conveys being able to see the drone.  Now I would also think that would mean its okay to use something like binoculars but I am not sure, I am going to read up on that or I may just call the FAA today as this is very important to me (I love flying as far as I can!).  If I call the FAA and get an official answer on that I will come back here and post again to let you know what they say either way.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 23:27
Visual Line Of Sight (VLOS) operations; means exactly that, keeping the unmanned aircraft in visual ...

Yeah I'm thinking that sounds more like what they would mean, I definitely dont agree with the thoughts some are giving about it not mattering if you can actually SEE your drone.   It just seems they very much want you to be 'eyes-on' with your drone and I can certainly understand that; the safety concerns are enormous and honestly human life is certainly more important than my 'leisure activities'.  

Along those lines, I saw someone mention putting a strobe on their drone to allow seeing it in the sky easier and I am very interested in that.  I am very new to all this and am wondering is that something is, 1. difficult to do and 2. would it void my warranty (if I havent already!).  

Thanks for any response

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 09:24
The radio waves have to be Transmitted at a strength enough to traverse such distance my friend.   ...

Bryan is absolutely correct, radio waves rely on signal strength which is why adding a booster can extend range.  The radio signal dissipates over distance and is further degraded by obstacles and interference, you can get a powerful receiver and it will manage to pick up a signal from a great distance in some cases but the signal is weak and the quality of the output will suffer quite a lot.  The strength the signal is sent at is much more important than the 'antenna' receiving it.  (in my amateurish and humble opinion)

mstephen12 Posted at 2016-3-7 10:17
I too am using the Standard and am trying to get a feel for whats safe.  At 1.5m I am assuming you ...

I did my test in a mixed suburban/farm area.
Set my RTH fail safe to 60m and straight flight out within the farm area and after 1.5 miles away, the FPV went but my RC signal was still strong so turned around.

Next test was over a high WiFi congested direction and after 1 mile my FPV went out, but the RC signal was still strong, so again turned around and flew back.

This weekend, I did a all or nothing test till the RC signal went out and hit 2 miles. Granted I lost FPV but RC was still going strong till I hit the RC signal loss and the RTH kicked in.
One thing I changed on the Argtek was I replace the HX-link antenna to a 5.8ghz 11 dBi panel.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product ... _detailpage_o04_s01

Note, having three panel antenna get in the way so you can also add in an RP SMA extender http://www.amazon.com/gp/product ... _detailpage_o02_s00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product ... _detailpage_o04_s00

Also, insure your controllers connections are resealed to increase the signal (hot glue gun).Now, granted in a city environment, your range will decrease to roughtly 3000 feet (914 meter or .56 mile), but without the mod you could also try a DIY windsurfer.

nigelw Posted at 2016-3-7 03:58
I've never heard or read of that.  Is it fact or hearsay?  I know American pilots had to lie about ...

Aloha nigel,

     Not to worry, that is revisionist history with no basis in fact.  Happens all the time over here across the pond.  Americans had to lie to fly for Britain for political expedience.  For some reason, some Americans have to find a way to feed their arrogance so they revise history based on flimsy evidence and false-say (not even hearsay).  It is embarrassing really.

     For example, you and others in Britain seem to know your regulations.  Over here not one of the American participants in this thread has noted that we have no regulations for micro drones - the P3s.  Even the small drones - the Inspire, Matrice, etc. have no regulations.  The only regulations here are those for aircraft of all sizes.  That is why you need a 333 exemption to fly commercial drones over here.  That is why you have to have permission of the airport tower to fly within five miles of the airport - all aircraft have to have permission to fly within five miles of the airport.

     The USA is in the comment period of proposed rulemaking for regulations for small and micro drones.  The proposed rules are not in effect at this time and can still be changed after the comment period ends.  However, the proposed rules are amazingly lenient and very accommodating for drone operators.  For example; it is proposed that VLOS can be maintained by an observer in radio or telephone contact with the operator.  This subject has been seriously beat-up in this thread and not one even stated what the proposed rule is.  And right now the proposed rules are simply no flying small or micro drones at night but the door is open to amendments regarding lights on the drone.  This is still being discussed.  Even FPV is still being considered as an alternative for VLOS - if video resolutions improve enough before the proposed rulemaking process is completed.

     We now have drone registration in effect and when you register your drone, you have to acknowledge that you are familiar with the "suggested guidelines" for flying your drone.  There are no legally binding regulations for flying our drones other than those regulations that apply to all aircraft in US airspace.

     So please take what we say with a grain of salt - hell, a whole shaker of salt.  The important point is we started out as family, had a nasty divorce, reconciled for the sake of the children and are now steadfast allies in a dangerous world.  Or as Bryan says, "What's the point of all this bantering . . ."

Aloha and Drone On!

iLuvMyPhantom Posted at 2016-3-7 15:41
Bryan is absolutely correct, radio waves rely on signal strength which is why adding a booster can ...

Beg to differ on this one.

There is no such thing as a 'powerful receiver', however, there is such a thing as a sensitive or selective receiver.  Putting any extraneous pieces of metal to extend the range of your transmitting antenna is more likely to create problems with vSWR, if the antennas needed to be improved, manufacturers would do this routinely.  Antenna physics is an extremely complex and often overlooked /understood principle, we are working at microwave (uhf & shf) frequencies where radio waves are, by nature, difficult to work with. Simply adding a larger antenna doesn't work.

The antenna is the most important part of any transmitting or receiving station, without it, your receiver won't 'hear' a thing or your transmitter be able to send a thing.

http://www.antenna-theory.com/basics/freqBands.php

http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/antennas/antenna-basics.htm

Just passing on some knowledge.

All the best.

nigelw Posted at 2016-3-7 08:58
I've never heard or read of that.  Is it fact or hearsay?  I know American pilots had to lie about ...

No, honestly, he is right. But still a ridiculous argument. My father fought in WWII. He never spoke about it. What's done is done. The Germans lost and the world won . End of story.

What is the point of DJI making drones that can fly and be controlled miles away if we have to abide by the visual line of sight rule?
My old eyes can't see the drone in the air past 900ft, but I have flown much further out.
Am I in violation of the FAA rule? Is it a law or a guideline?

Well, if yall are sticking to supposed VLOS limits (500m or so).  There is absolutely NO need for ANY RF booster.  The P3P/P3A already contain transmission and reception systems capable of far greater distance than you can "see".  Even in sub-prime situations.  So why are you people arguing for VLOS limits and then turning around and putting RF amps and antenna reflectors on your units?

This supposed VLOS limit totally negates the new P4's extended range.  Point blank.

Wolfiesden Posted at 2016-3-5 02:45
Um...no it doesn't

"Keep the aircraft within visual line of sight at all times"

Dear Sir,

You may have a number of definitions expressed by Merrium-Webster, Wikipedia, Cambridge, or your dictionary.com. However, your government entities may  quite possibly define something of their own accord, or, own choice, volition, free will.

If one chooses to define a law or regulation it is best best to go directly to the source of said law or regulation - instead of a dictionary.                                                                                                                            When it comes to court ruling, it is how the LAW is written, not what Wikipedia says.
Just saying.


cheers

ArcticM39 Posted at 2016-3-8 19:32
Am I in violation of the FAA rule? Is it a law or a guideline?

Excuse my ignorance, but does it matter if it's law or guidelines?  What will happen if an accident happens because you couldn't see what was happening & someone gets seriously hurt or worse?  I understand in the States, the outcome often comes down to what lawyers you can afford, no?

I'm not trying to judge you or anyone or make anyone feel bad by asking that, just trying to understand what the likely outcome might be, because that's how I often view these things.  Like speeding on the motorway...it's against the law, but many people do it & get away with it.  If you get caught you get a slap on the wrist, but if you happen to kill someone, you'll go to prison for the same crime.

And that's why I got the standard.

Guess my English is not the same as yours.
To me, there is a difference between law and guideline.
Law is official and may involve punishment.
Guideline... well, is guideline.

ArcticM39 Posted at 2016-3-8 23:34
Guess my English is not the same as yours.
To me, there is a difference between law and guideline.
L ...

No, your English is the same.  It's the way courts work that might be different.

In the UK, even if there's no specific law to say you need to be able to see the aircraft, you can still be prosecuted for something like negligence if you ignore guidelines.

An example would be there's no law that says I need to rest every so often when driving, but if I fall asleep at the wheel & kill someone because I drove for 24 hours solid, I'm going down.  Guidelines say you should rest every 100 miles or 2 hours or so, but there's no law.

ArcticM39 Posted at 2016-3-9 03:32
What is the point of DJI making drones that can fly and be controlled miles away if we have to abide ...

Pretty much the same argument of why Automobiles can go 160 MPH, in the US you can not drive that fast.
Same stupid concept.
They like to F**k with you....LOL

The FAA  specifically says, you must be able to see it with the unaided eye, other than regular corrective lenses.  So, if you're in the US.....  be aware.

AG0N-Gary Posted at 2016-3-8 16:34
The FAA  specifically says, you must be able to see it with the unaided eye, other than regular corr ...

Aloha Gary,

     Where does the FAA say that you must be able to see with the unaided eye?  The only place I could find that is in the Proposed Rulemaking.

Aloha and Drone On!

terrierist Posted at 2016-3-8 21:00
Beg to differ on this one.

There is no such thing as a 'powerful receiver', however, there is suc ...

yeah 'powerful' for the receiver conveyed the wrong message; should have just said sensitive... 'powerful' transmitter was what my brain was mulling but my fingers generally ignore what my brain is saying

microcyb Posted at 2016-3-7 23:58
I did my test in a mixed suburban/farm area.
Set my RTH fail safe to 60m and straight flight out wi ...

Hi, thanks so much for the reply; I am really liking the idea of this Argtek upgrade....could I impose on you to post a pic of your controller with that attached;  still really new to this and 'modding' still gets my brain muddled until I  have a picture in my head.  Thanks!

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-7 23:36
I put this on my drone at night sometimes.  You can see it for a mile. Nice thing, it isn't permane ...

Yeah i love that thing, was looking at your pics of it other day.  I am terrified to fly at night right now but once I get more confident thats something I would like to do.  

iLuvMyPhantom Posted at 2016-3-9 11:22
Hi, thanks so much for the reply; I am really liking the idea of this Argtek upgrade....could I im ...

You asked for it. LOL

microcyb Posted at 2016-3-10 00:31
You asked for it. LOL

wow that is insanely helpful, thank you so much!  I copied and saved the entire web page for that

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-9 11:36
Good lord. Lol, what kind of range is that giving your P3s ?

This stock change gets me a solid 1.5 miles.

Last range test after I changed the 5.8 gHz high gain antenna, I hit 2 miles (3218 meters 10560 feet).
Now granted the FPV went out with the 2.4 gHz panels at 1.5 miles, but the RC signal was still strong.

I know have no issues flying a mile away with high traffic areas with lots of metal, houses, Wifi, etc.
True not a Pro or Adv model, but at least it works now like the standard should.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-9 11:59
Well that's pretty good.  I've got tons of trees, hills and radio towers near me, I've had my p3p  ...

Yeah, I just wanted to insure I have at least a solid 1/2 mile to 1 mile range with FPV and RC signal strength.

When it comes to the topic of LOS, well if you go further, well you may or may not get in trouble.
Just be safe, careful, and make sure you have a strong signal.

Flyin'Bryan Posted at 2016-3-9 11:59
If you're drone isn't registered... you can't prove it's mine.

Just look for the pillow drone and we know it's yours.

Cetaman Posted at 2016-3-9 02:34
Aloha Gary,

     Where does the FAA say that you must be able to see with the unaided eye?  The o ...

There are so darned many sources, all labeled FAA, it would take a search to find/quote one or two.  I do believe it is stated that way in the new microdrone proposal, as well as the other proposal.  And if you read in detail, I'm pretty sure it is in the 333 exemption details.  I think it is ridiculous that a person would have to pay all that money (training, etc) for 333 exemption and piloting, and still have the same restrictions everyone else does, except you would be allowed to make a buck or two from it.  Like jumping on a toll road and having more traffic and crappy roads.

AG0N-Gary Posted at 2016-3-9 10:51
There are so darned many sources, all labeled FAA, it would take a search to find/quote one or two ...

Aloha Gary,

     Actually, if you read a lot of the Proposed Rulemaking, the micro drone operators have it really good.  The proposed rule making estimates that a micro drone operator would only have to pay $214 for FAA certifications as a commercial operator and be self certified as a commercial operator at that.  Basically, the operator has to certify that they have read and understand the final micro drone regulations.  Small drone operators will have to pass a certification test.  

     And VLOS is not like they are making it out in this thread at all.  The proposed rulemaking is asking for comments on using phones for advanced observers for small and micro drones so operators can fly 3 miles away.  The FAA is bending over backwards so they do not strangle the commercial and recreational drone markets.  This is the way it should be!

     My point in this discussion is that everyone is using FAA rules, suggestions and comments totally out of context.  Right now, micro drone and even small drone operators (we will not be considered pilots) are still in the Wild West.  There are only guidelines for us to follow.  

     But we still have the FAA airspace regulations that all fliers have to follow just like the big boys do.  That is why we have the 5 mile exclusion zone around airports.  All aircraft have the same restriction until they are allowed to enter the airspace by the airport tower.  We can get that same permission.  And also, that is why you need a 333 exemption to fly commercial drones, so you are exempt from some of the other current FAA regulations.  Familiarity with the current regulations is why you need the pilot's license for the 333 exemption.  It all makes sense when you actually look into it.  So many P3 operators are still in panic mode about the regulations because they have no first hand knowledge of the proposed rulemaking - they have not read it or a large part of it, only snippets out of context.

Aloha and Drone On!

AG0N-Gary Posted at 2016-3-9 10:51
There are so darned many sources, all labeled FAA, it would take a search to find/quote one or two ...

Aloha Gary,

     Oh, and I almost forgot, the proposed rulemaking may recommend that FPV, at something like 1080p downlink resolutions or better, could qualify as VLOS.  They are still trying to sort out the technology.

Aloha and Drone On!