Hi all,  I recently viewed some brief information about the new Matrice 600 and some additional addons for it.  I am mostly curious about the claims for cm level accuracy for the D-RTK Unit...  I perform photogrammetry flights as a business and if using this unit means not having to place ground targets, I could save much time and money.  
Could someone in the know please explain more about how this RTK system works?   Can we post process the GPS data to give our photos cm level gps accuracy?  Or is this more of a marketing thing where "cm level accuracy" just means the craft is more able to hold a steady position?  Can we tie the RTK to an existing base station to get cm level accuracy?

I have very high hopes for a uav in the near future to act as anrtk rover and tie into existing base stations.  PLeases help shed some light on this for me.

Thanks.

I would like an answer to this one too. Cheers

I just read the April 2016 newsletter and a link it provides mentions the RTK system.  It says

"The A3’s GNSS system can also be optionally upgraded to DJI Real-Time Kinematic technology, offering centimeter-accurate positioning to allow for complex maneuvers in an industrial setting and so that cinematic shots can be precisely replicated. The RTK technology can also withstand magnetic interference"

Unfortunately this does not look like the RTK system I was hoping for to help with photogrammetry.    I do think that there will be an RTK unit developed for my needs that will work with the DJI pro systems, but it just won't be developed by DJI.  Sensefly has managed to develop RTK for their Ebee UAVs, it is just a matter of time before the tech comes down in price.

If this a true RTK solution then the position of each photo should have centimetre Lat/long written to the EXIF data.  The main thing they have not yet explained is how their system is deriving the DGPS/correction signal which when you are doing terrestrial surveying comes from either your own base station or a DGPS/RTCM feed from a service such as Leica SmartNet.  I'm thinking that there's a clue in the stated need for the data modem.  This'll likely be a 450mhz unit similar to I what's used in base /rover RTK.  If this is the case then their publicity to date has been misleading and downplays what we'll need to do to have RTK on the aircraft tagging photos to sub-cm level.  If we have this there's no need for post-processing unless your GLONASS and NAVSTAR constellations are being severely obscured.

James Laver, Geospatial Architect, RPA, DEFRA, UK

Hello!
Thanks for your concern about the RTK!
In the newly FC A3, it use the advanced RTK technology which could reach cm accuracy. It supports high precision positioning with vertical accuracy up to ±0.03m, horizontal accuracy up to ± 0.02m, magnetic immunity, and high precision navigation information.

For more information, please visit our official website: http://www.dji.com/product/a3/info#specs

DJI-Adela Posted at 2016-5-12 15:26
Hello!
Thanks for your concern about the RTK!
In the newly FC A3, it use the advanced RTK technology ...

Hi,

Thanks for the info, could you please elaborate on it a little more. As I understand u are saying that with the FC A3 Pro we can achieve the mentioned accuracy. So, how would the D-RTK system work with the Matrice 600 + the FC A3 Pro, Will the accuracy improve? Also, is a base station provided with the D-RTK system.

As of now, the only information I have is that 2 versions of D-RTK are available, which are B (Beidou) and G (GPS & Glonass).

Also, Would like to know if the RTK systems on the FC A3 system and the D-RTK are single or dual frequency systems??

Waiting for your reply  

kcariappa@gmail Posted at 2016-5-19 15:52
Hi,

Thanks for the info, could you please elaborate on it a little more. As I understand u are sa ...

Hi,
Could you please read this article for more information?
Website link: http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/Real_Time_Kinematics

Thanks.

As I understand it, RTK can be accomplished with a base rover solution or with a RTK Network solution. Can you tell me, what is supported by the D-RTK GNSS?
Looking at your shop, I do not see that the D-RTK GNSS is for sale currently? when will it be for sale and do you know the Price?

Very interested in this as well, I would definitely buy this setup if it was an all-in one solution that meant I didn't have to individually place GCPs

Sorry guys,  as it looks to me, this D-RTK unit is only meant to hold the UAV within a hovering accuracy of +/-2cm tolerance... The specs link above has the RTK section under the "hovering accuracy" section.  It is not the RTK we were hoping for.  here is that link again.  Link

Hooks Posted at 2016-5-21 01:34
Sorry guys,  as it looks to me, this D-RTK unit is only meant to hold the UAV within a hovering accu ...

What were you hoping for exactly? The specs look almost identical as the Ebee drone you mentioned above.

Also, I think this video answers most questions that you guys had above.

DjiPhantomLove Posted at 2016-5-25 04:51
What were you hoping for exactly? The specs look almost identical as the Ebee drone you mentioned  ...

Thanks for the video, it was very informative.  

What I was hoping for was a system that can tie into an existing base station to provide centimeter accuracy for the resulting geolocated photos.  

After watching the video, I am still assuming that this is not possible with this system.  

To further describe the situation...  When performing photogrammetry, a grid of photos are captured.  Typically the low accuracy geotags of these photos are used to assist in the initial alignment of the photos when processing begins.  The geotags I get from my inspire or one of my regular ebees is +/-3-5m accuracy.  This is not accurate enough for most clients so we lay out ground targets before we begin the aerial survey.  These targets are measured at +/- 2cm accuracy using a base station and rover RTK system from Leica/Trimble etc...  After initial processing we can tie in the ground targets to achieve very high accuracy for our resulting DTMs and Orthos.

When hearing of the RTK abilities for this new system, I had been hoping to eliminate the need to place 100's of ground targets before each of my surveys (maybe just a few to test the reulting accuracy).   

The Ebee RTK does tie into and recieves corrections from existing base stations.  I have not been able to try one for myself (too poor) but I have high hopes for future DJI and 3DR products.

Since you are doing survey work, have you looked into pix4D? A lot of what you are describing can already be done with the Pix4D app/software.

Also, the RTK system has it's own base station which allows flying with an error of +/- 2cm. So it cannot tie into an existing base station, you will need to carry the small base station with you if you're planning on using DJI's RTK system.

We are currently testing the RTK with Data Link Pro on the M600 and S900.  We will post more details once the tests are completed.

Any progress on the RTK testing with Data Link Pro on the M600? My company is wanting to purchase one or two of the M600 units with the RTK system and the A3 pro. Is there any information available as to the cost and availability on these systems? We are currently using a competitors industrial platform and it isn't providing us with enough hovering accuracy to complete our inspections efficiently. Thank you in advance for your time.

taylorellis11@g Posted at 2016-6-11 04:17
Any progress on the RTK testing with Data Link Pro on the M600? My company is wanting to purchase on ...

Hi Taylor,
As Ed stated, they are still doing a bunch of testing and everyone will know results and specs when it is all completed.

Hooks Posted at 2016-6-2 04:04
Thanks for the video, it was very informative.  

What I was hoping for was a system that can tie  ...

@ Hooks,

I agree with what you say, no one really talks about the accuracy of the Geo-coordinates in the EXIF Data. Tell me if i am correct, from your posts I feel ur looking at a way to eliminate Ground Survey work from the process of field data collection. If this is correct, I feel u are looking at a method which, alot of people around the world are trying. Also, I really doubt the kind of accuracy u are looking for on a platform that is continuously in motion is possible in such a small package as of now. Maybe ur right about the hovering accuracy part, But I guess as surveyors we guys will have to get down to customization and use whatever DJI is offering us in the best way possible. Coz no one really offers the complete solution to our needs

Do u have any ideas  as to where best the platform - Matrice 600 with the claimed hovering accuracies could be used in data collection!!

kcariappa@gmail Posted at 2016-6-17 01:18
@ Hooks,

I agree with what you say, no one really talks about the accuracy of the Geo-coordinate ...

Yeah, eliminating the GCP placement in the field would be my holy grail...  There are areas where it is unsafe for a person to set foot on my worksites to place GCPs.    I am still holding out hope that this system can be useful in my line of work though.

My best guess is that the D-RTK system will be of great use for film productions when replicating complex shots...   This is just my current take on this however(hopefully I am wrong here).

  I worry that the stability and ability to reperform functions to an exacting degree is more what this unit would be about.

However,

If the system were to have its own stand alone base station that can transmit GPS corrections to the UAV like CruxisX mentioned, it will certainly give the clever 3rd party developers out there all of the fuel they need to develop the software to do what I am after.

CruxisX Posted at 2016-6-9 06:46
Since you are doing survey work, have you looked into pix4D? A lot of what you are describing can al ...

Yep I have used Pix4D a fair bit. I prefer Photoscan myself so I tend to use it for most of my projects.

Pix4d and Photoscan both still require accurate GCPs to be incorporated in the processing in order to get highly accurate Orthos and DSMs.  Pix4d is claimed to work well with the Ebee RTK to eliminate the need for GCPs and I suspect that Photoscan would perform just as well ( I still havent tested an RTK capable UAV).

Do you have inside knowledge that the D-RTK system comes with a dedicated base station?  I don't remember seeing that stated anywhere.

Hooks Posted at 2016-6-19 04:16
Yep I have used Pix4D a fair bit. I prefer Photoscan myself so I tend to use it for most of my pro ...

They had the base station displayed at this year's cinegear event in Los Angeles.

I am interested in this RTK technology as well for photogrammetry surveying.  I currently use the P4 and set ground control targets surveyed in with GNSS RTK.  I use Pix4d to process the data and deliver orthos, dsms, and point clouds.  The results are great and vertical accuracy of ~3 cm is what I am getting on most of my jobs which is outstanding.  I too have job sites that would be so much easier and safer not to set GCP's on.  The only UAV I see on the market with this capability so far is the eBee RTK.  It has a steep price tag which has come down recently but I still think that this capability in a UAV should be under $15k at the max.

Anyway, I hope this system will offer what we are after but I agree with hooks, it doesn't appear to be.

is there a time line for DJI providing more data/info on the on the D-RTK?

benmoyle@me.com Posted at 2016-7-9 15:37
is there a time line for DJI providing more data/info on the on the D-RTK?

So if i invest in the D RTK Will i have the same redundancy as the A3 PRO or do i need to have both which seen strange at then you have 3 GPS  aerials AND 2 D RTK aerials  

G'day all I'm also interested in the future of this...

I'm a surveyor at a large open cut mine in Australia, we currently use a fixed wing UAV and though its data is great it is better for larger areas, 40ha+.
The setup of the plane can be tedious with screws, tape and plugs, so something that can be pulled out and is ready to go would be perfect.

We have been looking at a copter/multi-rotor to be able to up date dig faces and complete high wall mapping, we have not been able to find anything that suits our needs as the RTK without ground control is the major component.

We require data under 100mm spec.

Just curious what kind of software you can use to create flight plans? Can it be done via the DJI App?

Hi everyone, my name is Steve from www.epocdronesurvey.com

We too have been surveying for years with ground control and looking to remove it. DJI D-RTK does not appear to be intended toward an accurate geo-reference solution for your geo tags. Thus this will not remove the need for ground control.

We are about to release a system that will work with the DJI A3 and provide accurate geotagged photographs which will remove ground control from your work flow.  

In order to do this you need at least the following
1) a professional survey grade antennae that runs at least 20-50 hz GPS, Glonass at minimum.
2) you need a base to broadcast corrected positions via RTK or log RAW such that you can post process (this is more accurate and reliable than RTK)
3) a good camera (none of DJI's cameras are good enough for photogrammetry)
4) the ability to know exactly the midpoint of the shutter release (not the time the photo trigger pulse was sent)

Among many other factors that need to be properly baked into your solution.

All of this is VERY expensive and yes we will provide an accurate system for sale soon but to be honest you can get good accuracy by making your ground control system easier.

Yes we do that too. We will release a kickstarter campaign that will make your ground control so easy you may not bother with these crazy expensive rigs anymore and just stick with your Phantom.

We will provide both solutions and you can decide

Please visit us and subscribe here www.epocdronesurvey.com

I do not visit this forum regularly.. or at all to be honest. If you want to email me please feel free info@epocdronesurvey.com

Regarding the RTK I understand the horizontal and vertical accuracy for a gps position but will it improve the vertical accuracy on windy days or will the drone still rise up and down due to the wind

The position of the M600 in the air has the potential of cm accuracy (if they use both L1/L2) and they could probably tag the pictures with high resolution x,y,z data but the problem is absolute angle accuracy of the gimbal. If you hoover 100m above the ground and know the position within ±2 cm in x,y,z  of the M600 and wants a photo taken where the center of the photo should be within centimeters of the x,y position of the M600 you need a VERY high angle accuracy of the gimbal.

/hakan

hakan@kodbiten. Posted at 2016-7-25 06:19
The position of the M600 in the air has the potential of cm accuracy (if they use both L1/L2) and th ...

do you still get the same accuracy on a windy day or is the drone going to struggle to maintain that accuracy due to the wind

Tahoe_Ed Posted at 2016-6-8 23:20
We are currently testing the RTK with Data Link Pro on the M600 and S900.  We will post more details ...

Hi Tahoe_Ed, here leofuica again, i work now in Dron Store in Chile and now setting a D-RTK, i have a few questions, if possible answer to me.

¿I can put RTK air with out upper extension base part 4 and put directly like a S900?
¿The GS is the same we used with Datalink 900 mhz with S900 or use different and new GS? Because i can´t find a new one...
Thanks, already my email is fuicafoto@gmail.com

info.fuicafoto Posted at 2016-8-5 18:35
Hi Tahoe_Ed, here leofuica again, i work now in Dron Store in Chile and now setting a D-RTK, i have ...

You would want to try to have the same configuration as provided in the RTK manual. At this time the new Ground Station function is currently in BETA. You can find more information at this link:

http://forum.dji.com/thread-59483-1-1.html

Hi Jamie, how does this system map the gps coordinates to the pictures taken by the camera as there's obviously a gap of lets say a couple of inches between the camera and the rtk unit.

Can you explain how the +/- 2cm accuracy is overlayed into the photography or thermal images? Interested to learn more about how of this works?

Any update on this Jamie as I asked the question 5 days ago. Thanks

HI, finally flow with RTK activated.
Only can works with the original GPS A3 system + RTK.
First need to take time for Ground RTK engaged enought GPS for green light and then you cant on the M600.
The behaivor get better and the oscilation became into almost nothing, is very notorius.
Unfortunatly GS is not release, only Beta for PC, the next week i test it with carefull.
Is you want off RTK and fly with the original GPS (stock with A3) only need unplug the energy cable from RTK and then on the M600, asume the original configuration.
For another hand was surprise that DJI GO show me CALIBRATION IS REQUERID for the original GPS compass only, like a normally seting.
The DJI GO show us in SATELLITE icon with a "R" when RTK is already and don´t permitt TAKE OFF if the sognal is not complet with ORIENTATION and POSITION at the same time, then show the satellite number por GROUND and for AIR RTK antenna.
Until here for now...

Thanks for the update. It would be good to hear more about this from dji!!!!!

How long do we have to wait for dji to respond????

Is there anything new on this topic?

Will the RTK be a true Geo accurate solution? I have my local stores telling me that it is however this post has given me some doubt.

I have seen the "Ground System" int the ONE video they have released and their doesn't seem to be a way of aligning it with a known point (I believe that would be essential in obtaining a true accurate location. correct?)

Will the ground station be capable of receiving RTK corrections from a GNSS provider via a 3g/4g network then relaying that to the Air System via the datalink?, I don't understand how it will be a truly accurate solution.

Thanks

hakan@kodbiten. Posted at 2016-7-25 04:19
The position of the M600 in the air has the potential of cm accuracy (if they use both L1/L2) and th ...

Sure you can hover and wait until your GPS hits an epoc then log that data... this is called "stop and go" surveying.

We actually did this by placing a survey grade ant on a phantom then did a stop and go survey. It silly stopping at each photo point and hovering. We take thousands of photos each survey. This is not a solution.

The problem here is that nobody at DJI has any real world drone survey experience (not being rude it's true)

The more I read this the more DJI simply does not understand the questions being asked by real surveyors.

You can't get accuracy without either ground control or expensive onboard dual frequency receivers doing high refresh rates and trigger timing with interpolation.

A proper receiver for this work is 6K plus each. Of course I am sure DJI can make them for a lot less but I am speaking of trusted receivers like trimble, topcon, novatel etc.

Pix 4d and all other software providers for this type of work will tell you first thing that without very accurate geotags you will still nee ground control.

Then after that you need check shots on the ground.

I am hoping this will work but also hoping that we can mount it to our own custom drones and they are not forcing us into the m600.

kcariappa@gmail Posted at 2016-6-17 01:18
@ Hooks,

I agree with what you say, no one really talks about the accuracy of the Geo-coordinate ...

Hi yes you can get this type of accuracy but with the proper GPS receiver and trigger timing only.
We have used every solution out there, ebee to X5 etc. However nothing matches the Mavinci platform. However it's $90,000 why? because its has a kick butt GPS onboard and it works with good support. We have seen this thing get true sub cm accurate data and no other platform can touch it even though they claim to.

We are using DJI as our chosen flight control and have a geo referencing solution but are awaiting the popular app developers like maps made easy etc to support A3 or hopefully we can use the data modem to fly the drone without DJI dgps

This is a response that has been received from DJI when we questioned the RTK feature

"Currently, the RTK module can not save GPS data for the photos.
Please stay tuned for future firmware updates. "

This could all be another issue for many people

If the position of each photo does not have centimetre Lat/long written to the EXIF data then what's the point of spending £4K on this system. Seems useless to me.

This system doesn't work for what any of us want to use it for.