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DroneAlps
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I bought a Phantom 3 last year based on the impressive list of specs listed on DJI.com (http://www.dji.com/phantom-3-pro/info#specs)
Specifically:
  • [Battery] Operating Temperature = 0°C to 40°C

Why? Because I fly a lot at extremely high altitudes (up to 4810m / 15781ft) where it's difficult enough to keep yourself warm, let alone the batteries!
The official "battery heater" page says the following:
"It uses the battery's power to raise the battery temperature to the optimal operating range: 41℉ to 95℉ (5℃ to 35℃)."
http://store.dji.com/product/phantom-3-battery-heater

Recently, it literally dropped out of the sky after 2 minutes of flying at these conditions:
  • [Battery] Operating Temperature = 14°C
  • Battery Level = 91%
  • Flight Time = 1 min 29 seconds

*Update* flight log =http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/5S0I2L8403T81ASUM0GM/

My question is, why do DJI advertise false battery temperature specifications? Also, why do DJI not offer some form of reimbursement in this situation?

I fly a lot in these conditions and so my concern is that this could happen again and cause serious harm to somebody.

Would like an official answer if possible.



2016-10-10
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bigglyguy
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Could you provide a little more detail?

Or perhaps a lot more detail?
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DroneAlps
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bigglyguy Posted at 2016-10-10 15:17
Could you provide a little more detail?

Or perhaps a lot more detail?

What kind of extra info do you want?
2016-10-10
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labroides
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And what makes you think the specs are false?
Do you know what was the cause of your incident?
2016-10-10
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jamesazen
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Sync your flight logs and ask support to evaluate them, there may be a reason it "dropped from the sky"
What altitude did you take off from? 300m per minute vertical speed would have taken 16 minutes to reach 4810m altitude from a beach..
What was the weather like?  While it may have been 14c where you took off from, at almost 16,000 ft. temperature may have dropped well below operating threshold.

The Warranty period is 12 months for the main components, 6 months for the rest of the equipment, if there was operator error, I have seen where DJI offered a discount on the purchase of a new P3.
The flight logs would need to be looked at if your p3 was still in the warranty period.
2016-10-10
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microcyb
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Without any flight logs, it is hard to say that the temperature was a factor.  What was the wind speed? What setting were you flying in? Was all pre flight checks performed?
others here use Healthydrone.com to show what happened and helps a lot.
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labroides
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microcyb Posted at 2016-10-11 00:37
Without any flight logs, it is hard to say that the temperature was a factor.  What was the wind spe ...

Why do people recommend Healthydrones.com?
It's almost useless to investigate a Phantom incident. as it only gives a very brief summary.
If you want to know what happened you have to use:  http://www.phantomhelp.com/LogViewer/Upload/
2016-10-10
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labroides
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jamesazen Posted at 2016-10-11 00:34
Sync your flight logs and ask support to evaluate them, there may be a reason it "dropped from the s ...

"What altitude did you take off from? 300m per minute vertical speed would have taken 16 minutes to reach 4810m altitude from a beach.."

No-one can fly a Phantom 3 more than 500 metres above launch point so he was obviously launching from high altitude and the temperature would have been similar in flight to what it was at launch point.
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billwish76
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hmmmm really? 14c is almost 60f. now i do most my flyin in the mnts im in ca. now one place i been goin i just pass a 6000 ft elevation marker on the road 90°f and i fly the crap out of my p3s. take it to 400 ft or so i am AMA mem some times lil higher the bird has no problem.   Now what year 14 degrees Celsius is 57 degrees Fahrenheit the air is denser than at 90 degrees Fahrenheit my point is I got the Lesser model but mine performs fine
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billwish76
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The low temperatures that prevent the Phantom or very low like snowing low 60 degrees 14 degrees Fahrenheit shouldn't be too cold and if it is you need a warmer they make them for people that live in cold climates
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billwish76
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The cooler the air the denser the air making it easier to climb
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labroides
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billwish76 Posted at 2016-10-11 01:22
hmmmm really? 14c is almost 60f. now i do most my flyin in the mnts im in ca. now one place i been g ...

There's been no evidence presented to suggest that the problem had anything to do with altitude or temperature.
Until evidence is presented, the cause could have been almost anything.
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labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-10 10:29
There's been no evidence presented to suggest that the problem had anything to do with altitude or ...

Perhaps this is the evidence we seek.....

http://forum.dji.com/thread-64900-1-1.html
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DroneAlps
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terrylewis Posted at 2016-10-10 16:50
Perhaps this is the evidence we seek.....

http://forum.dji.com/thread-64900-1-1.html

Yes, DJI blamed the reason for the battery failure as low temperature, but you can see that it is well within the specs listed on their website - that is my whole point!
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wmcvey
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labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-10 10:07
Why do people recommend Healthydrones.com?
It's almost useless to investigate a Phantom incident.  ...

Don't think that site works with the newer Go app since the logs are now encrypted.
I found this one, but have not used it yet myself. http://www.djilogs.com/#/

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microcyb
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terrylewis Posted at 2016-10-10 10:50
Perhaps this is the evidence we seek.....

http://forum.dji.com/thread-64900-1-1.html

I know from personal experience my DJI has had no issues in temperatures in -23C (-10F) to 32C (90F).
In Minnesota, we get some very highs and lows with temperatures and never had an issue with the battery or the bird.
Granted, I never fly higher then 400m, but have had clean flights with very cold temps.
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wmcvey
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Yes agree, this is like the third thread he has opened on this same issue. Won't accept the fact the battery was too cold, and even the app gave such a warning message that was ignored. Just read through the other thread and you'll see his real point is if the specs say you can fly in said temp, than all else is irrelevant. Including an error message the Go app sent to not fly until battery temp had gone up. Post from other thread below.
Sorry but false claims not only made the brand look bad when it's not, but also drive up the price of their products that we might buy.
Seems you left out a key comment from DJI-Jamie that was in one of your other posts:

"Regardless of firmware, once you armed the motors, you were given a warning that the battery temperature was below 15° C and was told to allow the battery to warm up to at least 25° C before you continue to fly. This message was ignored, which unfortunately means that the consequences could not be covered under the warranty. The battery barely warmed to 13° C when the flight log ended."

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Phantomski
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wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-11 02:50
Don't think that site works with the newer Go app since the logs are now encrypted.
I found this on ...

I believe it was fixed. I agree that healthy drones is not optimal, but it's at least a start..... phantomhelp certainly dives deeper in many ways.

Why nobody from DJI is here? I am sure they could help to escalate the case. It is known that DJI support really does not do much on the first attempt for many users.. they just seem to provide a random answer, like "was your internet up?"...   At least that's my experience.. Now, on this forum the DJI pple are way more open to other ideas and actually look at the evidence, then they often escalate the case and help out.
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Not A Speck Of
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 00:15
Yes, DJI blamed the reason for the battery failure as low temperature, but you can see that it is  ...

Without logs, your "point" is a claim of false advertising without any supporting evidence, like flight logs of the mission where the craft fell out of the sky.
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DJI-Ken
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 00:15
Yes, DJI blamed the reason for the battery failure as low temperature, but you can see that it is  ...

When you play back the flight record on your device what errors do you see?
Also, if you tap the RC icon, the sticks will be overlaid and you can see your stick inputs.
If you've already sent the aircraft in and that's what was determined then that's it.
You can tell them that you don't agree but the flight data is what they go on.
I am in the US, so there's nothing I can do for you.
Sorry about your crash.
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labroides
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wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-11 05:50
Don't think that site works with the newer Go app since the logs are now encrypted.
I found this on ...

Phantomhelp has been back since last week.
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wmcvey
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labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-10 17:15
Phantomhelp has been back since last week.

Thanks, just checked it out. Great.
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DroneAlps
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wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-10 20:59
Yes agree, this is like the third thread he has opened on this same issue. Won't accept the fact th ...
^post #17
This is a different topic, so I started a different thread. That comment is not important for this topic but if anything it backs up my point - the drone fell out of the sky when it was flying well within the advertised operating specs. Do you agree or not?
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DroneAlps
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DJI-Ken Posted at 2016-10-10 22:50
When you play back the flight record on your device what errors do you see?
Also, if you tap the R ...

Ken, thanks for chipping in. The flight logs have been analyzed by DJI and show that the temperature was ~14 degrees Celsius when it dropped out of the sky, after only 2 minutes on a new battery. To me, that is clearly false advertising when you compare that to the specs on the P3 page. And it worries me because I film predominantly in the high mountains, where a malfunction like this means total loss of the drone and potentially a risk to the lives underneath.
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04red6
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billwish76 Posted at 2016-10-10 10:22
hmmmm really? 14c is almost 60f. now i do most my flyin in the mnts im in ca. now one place i been g ...

I can not understand a word of this... Can we try some punctuation and proper sentence forming?
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Phantomski
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04red6 Posted at 2016-10-10 20:39
I can not understand a word of this... Can we try some punctuation and proper sentence forming?

oh, come on.. this is the "style" today.. sloppy grammar, sloppy spelling...
however consider the the person write may not be an efficient English speaker....
but yes, it would be nice if people did put SOME care into their posts...
can u tell i am a bit careless too? But usually i am comprehensive to a point, I hope!
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wmcvey
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-10 18:38
This is a different topic, so I started a different thread. That comment is not important for this ...

No I disagree, You just made my point in my above post. Your thinking is that everything else is irrelevant like flying skill, Phantom knowledge, emergency reaction or reading and obeying a warning message telling you the battery was not ready for flight. Just because the outside temp was within operating range??
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 09:38
This is a different topic, so I started a different thread. That comment is not important for this ...

No, because until you post your flight records on Phantomhelp, no-one has a clue what happened. All you have is a theory at this point in time that the battery failed, but it is not backed-up by any evidence. And, remember this, DJI will not honour any form of warranty unless they receive the flight data and are able to analyse it to determine if their product failed in any way.
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jamesazen
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Still trying to deal with facts here,
Altitude reported as 4810m = 15780.84 ft.
Even if your flight was no more than 500m from take off, you'd have been at 4310m = 14140.42 ft
Were you using oxygen? If not, your judgement may have been impaired.

Still not sure about the temperature at altitude, that high up, it just seems to make sense to me that a 500m difference (= 1640.42ft) in altitude could be a huge difference in temperature, so where was the aircraft when the 14c temp. was recorded? at take off? at point of failure? what device made the temperature recording? how accurate is it? Those are questions I can't answer.. We need a DJI tech in here
I just can't say it was Mr. Alps at fault, nor can I empirically state DJI is at fault.
the only summation is, DJI thinks it failed due to temperature, one hopes they know their equipment, it's accuracy, and whether or not the temperature was, as stated.. 14c when the battery failed.
I don't accept the assertion that DJI falsely misled the public as to the operating parameters of their product, nor do I accept that the facts as stated are correct - Back to we just don't have enough Info to go either way. Sorry Mr. Alps
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adrianr
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Just went through all of the comments, and as in most cases I see a lot of negative synergies from other users instead of the opposite.

As in all cases when someone loses it's drone, it is very hard to have all the facts and DJI needs to decide also based on suppositions. What is the latest feedback you received from their side for your incident?
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DroneAlps
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adrianr Posted at 2016-10-11 10:22
Just went through all of the comments, and as in most cases I see a lot of negative synergies from o ...

True, there is so much negativity around here! Latest feedback was a diagnosis from DJI (the drone failed due to cold temperature - 14 degrees Celsius) but no further help.
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DroneAlps
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jamesazen Posted at 2016-10-11 10:02
Still trying to deal with facts here,
Altitude reported as 4810m = 15780.84 ft.
Even if your flight ...

Hi James, the drone was only ~50m away from take-off, not 500! The ambient air temperature was around 1-2 degrees Celsius. The battery temperature was 14 degrees Celsius when it failed - as recorded by the app and verified by DJI.
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DroneAlps
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Geebax Posted at 2016-10-11 06:43
No, because until you post your flight records on Phantomhelp, no-one has a clue what happened. All ...

The drone could not be retrieved, so there are no flight records. However, the flight logs have been uploaded to DJI and anaylsed. That is how DJI came to the conclusion it crashed due to a cold temperature of 14 degrees Celsius, which killed the battery. Does that give you a clue what happened? Do you see how this contradicts the P3 specs found on their website?
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DroneAlps
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wmcvey Posted at 2016-10-11 06:35
No I disagree, You just made my point in my above post. Your thinking is that everything else is i ...

I never said everything else is irrelevant - but you are missing the point entirely. Why advertise an operating temperature range of 0-40 when it flat out fails at 14? Yes it had a warning message, but it also had the green "safe to fly" message. Are you saying to trust one but not the other? Ironically the warning message itself contradicts the P3 specs given on their website! I'll remind you of my main point here - false advertising.
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labroides
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 20:12
I never said everything else is irrelevant - but you are missing the point entirely. Why advertise  ...

You admit you had a warning message but ignored it.
You've carefully ignored post #17 above.
Low temperature conditions are very trying for lipo batteries.
Yours could have made it  .. if you followed the warning the the app gave you.
And you accuse DJI of false advertising?
About time you took responsibility for your own actions.
The real false advertising is you claiming to be an innocent victim of DJI.
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DroneAlps
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labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-11 11:27
You admit you had a warning message but ignored it.
You've carefully ignored post #17 above.
Low te ...

Really? Check post #23.

You are again completely missing the point. I know the battery failed because it was cold. That is not the issue. The problem is DJI advertising it to work in cold temperatures, when it doesn't.
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Cetaman
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-10 21:24
What kind of extra info do you want?

Aloha DroneAlps,

     Yes, the P3P can fly at high altitudes and cold conditions.  You claimed in this thread that most of your flying is in these extreme altitudes.  But, if you are going to fly in those conditions, you are required to know how to fly in those conditions.  The bird can fly, but can you fly the bird?  The warranty does not cover your flying skills and knowledge.  At some point, you have to take responsibility for flying your P3P.

     It appears that no one has noted that you put your P3P into an environment that requires advanced flying skills.  A recent thread from Pakistan involved a P2 that went into Vortex Ring State at 11,000 feet;

http://forum.dji.com/thread-65511-1-1.html

     Simply hovering at extreme altitudes can put your Phantom (3&4) into Vortex Ring State even though the problem has been designed out at lower altitudes where air is thicker.  Temperature also has a role at extreme altitudes including how your batteries perform as well noted in this thread.  

     If you are at an extreme altitude and you hover your P3P, with a 25 degree battery, while you enter the information needed to do an IOC mission, you could be setting yourself up for a Vortex Ring State wobble of death.  This is something you need to know if you are going to fly in that environment.  You cannot hover at altitude unless you are holding a position in good winds.  Either the wind gives you good air to keep you aloft while hovering or you have to keep moving out of the vortex ring your bird keeps creating.  These are piloting skills and if you do not practice them, you risk crashing and wondering what happened.

     A better approach on your part with this thread and possibly your other threads would have been to wonder why the advertised information did not work in your case.  It is not false advertising.  Many of us who are familiar with Vortex Ring State can fly in the European Alps or the Australian Alps without crashing.  We can fly off of Mauna Kea at 14,000 feet.  But, we keep moving to stay out of Vortex Ring State even with our Phantoms designed to avoid Vortex Ring State in much thicker air at lower altitudes because flying at extreme altitude requires extreme flying skills.  Manned helicopter training for altitudes above 10,000 feet (mostly military and rescue) require special course material for the same reason.  Look up Vortex Ring State in WikiPedia.

Aloha and Drone On!
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DroneAlps
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Cetaman Posted at 2016-10-11 11:39
Aloha DroneAlps,

     Yes, the P3P can fly at high altitudes and cold conditions.  You claimed in ...

What are you on about? This was not vortex ring state and this was not an inexperienced pilot. But again, you're missing the point. If the drone cannot safely operate at these heights and temperatures, why are DJI advertising that they can?!
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labroides
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DroneAlps Posted at 2016-10-11 20:42
What are you on about? This was not vortex ring state and this was not an inexperienced pilot. But ...

Your whole premise is wrong.
The drone can safely operate at these heights and temperatures .. if the operator does it properly.
Anyone can crash a Phantom if they do not follow the appropriate procedures and the environment you were flying in is trickier than most.
I's not false advertising at all.
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DroneAlps
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labroides@yahoo Posted at 2016-10-11 11:56
Your whole premise is wrong.
The drone can safely operate at these heights and temperatures .. if  ...

"if the operator does it properly" - can you elaborate? That sounds like a bit of a cop out...
If you're trying to say that the battery must be warmed to 25 degrees Celsius before flying, as per the warning message found on firmware 1.5 and above, then the specs on the website should specify an operating temperature of 25-40 degrees rather than 0-40, no?
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